Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[Masonomace]

Oh my bionis. . .I'm trying it now that I've seen you make a post about this, & I can't footstool my teammate with TA on either.

. . .

This is awesome!

EDIT: To clarify, can teammates on For Glory Team Smash footstool each other? I can't recall if you could or not.

 

[Conn1496]

Can someone with access to 1.1.3 and 1.1.4 test Jr's B-throw kill %s? (-and for that matter, all his throws' KB in general.)

I keep killing with B-throw now whereas it was always quite rare and/or difficult to before. I know we're trying to tone down the amount of placebo, but this one would be a pretty big deal, and I'm genuinely interested in changes to the character (Since we keep getting misinformation on changes for them, for starters... The whole update is very unclear for Jr. in all honesty. People are saying very different things and it would be nice to have clarity.).

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can someone with access to 1.1.3 and 1.1.4 test Jr's B-throw kill %s? (-and for that matter, all his throws' KB in general.)

I keep killing with B-throw now whereas it was always quite rare and/or difficult to before. I know we're trying to tone down the amount of placebo, but this one would be a pretty big deal, and I'm genuinely interested in changes to the character (Since we keep getting misinformation on changes for them, for starters... The whole update is very unclear for Jr. in all honesty. People are saying very different things and it would be nice to have clarity.).

I have just tested the throws for you, using Mario's starting position on Omega Golden Plains on a 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS. The kill percents were the same unfortunately.

 

[Conn1496]

I have just tested the throws for you, using Mario's starting position on Omega Golden Plains on a 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS. The kill percents were the same unfortunately.

Daaamn, that's lame. Thanks for giving it a try anyway!

Would you mind testing other things out for Jr. too?.. -again, I ask since most of Jr.'s data is really hit and miss as of this patch. People are still unsure about %s on F-air's late hitboxes, and some are even questioning the spin-out damage buff.

Also a few people who think the smash attacks have improved frames, but that hasn't seen much backing up, so it would be nice to see someone with both versions give it a looksee. (Unless these are all things you've looked into before - then in that case I just missed them. x_x'')

 

[Darklink401]

Daaamn, that's lame. Thanks for giving it a try anyway!

Would you mind testing other things out for Jr. too?.. -again, I ask since most of Jr.'s data is really hit and miss as of this patch. People are still unsure about %s on F-air's late hitboxes, and some are even questioning the spin-out damage buff.

Also a few people who think the smash attacks have improved frames, but that hasn't seen much backing up, so it would be nice to see someone with both versions give it a looksee. (Unless these are all things you've looked into before - then in that case I just missed them. x_x'')

Pretty sure the smash attacks are faster.

Didn't two people already confirm the frame data change on them?

 

[Conn1496]

Pretty sure the smash attacks are faster.

Didn't two people already confirm the frame data change on them?

I must've missed them if that was the case, then. It's certainly not in the patch notes, but I know those are gonna be slow to update anyway. I mean, it took long enough to take down the fake one about Jr.'s kart buff, so...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Daaamn, that's lame. Thanks for giving it a try anyway!

Would you mind testing other things out for Jr. too?.. -again, I ask since most of Jr.'s data is really hit and miss as of this patch. People are still unsure about %s on F-air's late hitboxes, and some are even questioning the spin-out damage buff.

Also a few people who think the smash attacks have improved frames, but that hasn't seen much backing up, so it would be nice to see someone with both versions give it a looksee. (Unless these are all things you've looked into before - then in that case I just missed them. x_x'')

Ok, I did the same tests under the same conditions...

1.1.3 Clown Kart Dash low speed/high speed damages = 4%/7%. Exactly the same in 1.1.4.

The spin out damage is weird. It does not increase based on whether you are doing low speed or high speed dash. It is based on the point of the spin. For example, if you hit with the beginning of the spin, you do 12%. If it hits just after, it's 11%. It decreases by 1% for the later the spin hits, going all the way down to 8%. This could be why the Jr boards are coming up with different values, perhaps not everyone knows this. From my testing, the damage output is exactly the same across 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.

From my testing on 1.1.3, Fair stales with damage the longer it is out too, dealing 11%, 8%, 6.5%, 5%, 4% and 2% upon landing.
In 1.1.4, I could only get 11%, 9%, 7% and 5%. I could not get a 4% hitbox to appear. Regardless, the change about Forward Air in the patch notes is true.

His smashes are indeed faster in 1.1.4. I cannot count frames, but what has already been said is believable. It seems that the animations are sped up near the end of the animations, thus, making them recover sooner.

 

[Conn1496]

Ok, I did the same tests under the same conditions...

1.1.3 Clown Kart Dash low speed/high speed damages = 4%/7%. Exactly the same in 1.1.4.

The spin out damage is weird. It does not increase based on whether you are doing low speed or high speed dash. It is based on the point of the spin. For example, if you hit with the beginning of the spin, you do 12%. If it hits just after, it's 11%. It decreases by 1% for the later the spin hits, going all the way down to 8%. This could be why the Jr boards are coming up with different values, perhaps not everyone knows this. From my testing, the damage output is exactly the same across 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.

From my testing on 1.1.3, Fair stales with damage the longer it is out too, dealing 11%, 8%, 6.5%, 5%, 4% and 2% upon landing.
In 1.1.4, I could only get 11%, 9%, 7% and 5%. I could not get a 4% hitbox to appear. Regardless, the change about Forward Air in the patch notes is true.

His smashes are indeed faster in 1.1.4. I cannot count frames, but what has already been said is believable. It seems that the animations are sped up near the end of the animations, thus, making them recover sooner.

I was aware of dash and spinout's variables, yeah. Just kinda irritating the data got jumbled how it did.

Glad to hear F-air is actually buffed, there were a lot of people using the 5% hitbox as proof it wasn't, but it's good to know both are right to some degree.

-and good to know more and more people are confirming Smash frame improvements!

Much thanks for taking the time to actually look into this! Can finally have a bit more stable evidence for Jr.'s patch notes!

 

[Bowserboy3]

I was aware of dash and spinout's variables, yeah. Just kinda irritating the data got jumbled how it did.

Glad to hear F-air is actually buffed, there were a lot of people using the 5% hitbox as proof it wasn't, but it's good to know both are right to some degree.

-and good to know more and more people are confirming Smash frame improvements!

Much thanks for taking the time to actually look into this! Can finally have a bit more stable evidence for Jr.'s patch notes!

Np, glad to help!

On another note, I am going to go through every character who has/supposed to have changes and check if their weight values have been changed. I know some people are still unsure what Falcon/Charizard's change(s) are, so I am going to start by either confirming or ruling out a weight change. I'll be using my boy Marth's Up Throw seeing as I know kinda it's kill percent. Nevertheless, I will be testing anyway across 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS to get accurate results. I'll post any findings here later...

 

[Ryusuta]

if someone wanted to confirm lucina getting the same frame data changes as marth then would controlling both of them with the amiibo glitch and not suffering desync while spamming moves be sufficient proof?

I'd like to see this. I'm really getting mixed signals on whether they still have the same frame data or not.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'd like to see this. I'm really getting mixed signals on whether they still have the same frame data or not.

I confirmed this a while ago. Marth and Lucina have the exact same frame data changes. So all the move endlag/duration changes Marth got, Lucina got too.

 

[Vurky]

Is there any way to retrieve lost replays? I accidentally had internet on or something, because it updated automatically..

 

[Ffamran]

I have news of another Falco buff... albeit not as big as the above.

Another user reported that Falco's Dsmash received a buff, so I thought I would test it out myself. Again, using 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS, this time I used Mario in his starting position on Omega Battlefield...

On 1.1.3, Dsmash killed occasionally at 129%, and reliably at 130%.
On 1.1.4, Dsmash killed at 125%.

Probably got the memo by now, but Lavani found the changes and it's that the growth was increased from 76 to 78. Post link: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-final-content-1-1-4-patch-discussion.430033/page-12#post-20836806.

 

[Ryusuta]

I confirmed this a while ago. Marth and Lucina have the exact same frame data changes. So all the move endlag/duration changes Marth got, Lucina got too.

Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come off as me distrusting you. That wasn't my intent. Rather, the ambiguity of the patch notes is the real culprit here.

That being said, you are 100% completely right (and I know you don't need me to say that ^^; ). I did a quickie video just to test and make absolutely certain.

Thanks for your patience with me.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm getting some odd findings in my weight tests... hmm... I'll post them when I finish...

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm getting some odd findings in my weight tests... hmm... I'll post them when I finish...

Ooh, very interesting. I want to see this.
Who in particular is odd in your findings?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Has Charizard been changed at all from 1.1.3 to this patch? I'm seeing some changes, but I want to make sure they aren't just placebo taking it's effect before spouting it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Ooh, very interesting. I want to see this.
Who in particular is odd in your findings?

Mainly the characters with supposed weight changes. I'm wondering whether some actually have weight changes or not...

Nearly done, findings coming shortly...

 

[The_progenitor]

Is there any way to retrieve lost replays? I accidentally had internet on or something, because it updated automatically..

The replays aren't lost, it's just they aren't compatible with the current version. I have absolutely no idea if you can downgrade software versions for smash, but the only way to get your replays viewable again would be to revert to the previous patch. Good luck with that though

 

[Radical Larry]

The replays aren't lost, it's just they aren't compatible with the current version. I have absolutely no idea if you can downgrade software versions for smash, but the only way to get your replays viewable again would be to revert to the previous patch. Good luck with that though

It does suck when updates happen without your need for them.
But...

Vurky Did you try cancelling the update?

 

[Vurky]

It does suck when updates happen without your need for them.
But...

Vurky Did you try cancelling the update?

I turned on Wii u and took internet cable off, and when I checked Wii u again it was in the next patch lol.

Can't even send these for a friend with the last patch?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Has Charizard been changed at all from 1.1.3 to this patch? I'm seeing some changes, but I want to make sure they aren't just placebo taking it's effect before spouting it.

Please, spout away. I have a 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS so I can confirm any changes. Nobody currently has any idea on what has changed on Charizard, so anything to test is a good start.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Please, spout away. I have a 1.1.3 3DS and 1.1.4 3DS so I can confirm any changes. Nobody currently has any idea on what has changed on Charizard, so anything to test is a good start.

His midair jumps and air speed seem to be changed, and I feel like he may have had some lag reduction to some of his moves, but that's about all I'm really noticing so far.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I feel like he may have had some lag reduction to some of his moves

Any moves in particular?...

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Any moves in particular?...

His smashes and aerials would be prime canidates, honestly. Maybe the tilts, but mostly smashes and aerials.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Right, back from my tests into character weights. I tested every character with supposed changes, including the characters with supposed weight changes (like Rosalina, Ganon etc), just for confirmation.

For the test, I was using one 1.1.3 version of 3DS, and one 1.1.4 version of 3DS. The stage was regular Duck Hunt. I was using Marth's Up Throw to test the percent that the characters get KO'd off the top. I will just note that some characters for whatever reason, some characters never DI'd, like Sonic, and some always DI'd in, like Falcon. Regardless, it doesn't affect the results of each individual. Here are my results...

Spoiler: Weight test results

: 1.1.3 - 192%. 1.1.4 - 192%.
: 1.1.3 - 191%. 1.1.4 - 191%.
: 1.1.3 - 199%. 1.1.4 - 199%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 192%. 1.1.4 - 192%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 177%. 1.1.4 - 177%.
: 1.1.3 - 165%. 1.1.4 - 165%.
: 1.1.3 - 161%. 1.1.4 - 161%.
: 1.1.3 - 199%. 1.1.4 - 199%.
: 1.1.3 - 198%. 1.1.4 - 198%.
: 1.1.3 - 154%. 1.1.4 - 154%.
: 1.1.3 - 176%. 1.1.4 - 176%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 156%. 1.1.4 - 155%.
: 1.1.3 - 188%. 1.1.4 - 188%.
: 1.1.3 - 168%. 1.1.4 - 167%.
: 1.1.3 - 172%. 1.1.4 - 172%.
: 1.1.3 - 165%. 1.1.4 - 165%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 173%. 1.1.4 - 173%.
: 1.1.3 - 175%. 1.1.4 - 175%.
: 1.1.3 - 166%. 1.1.4 - 166%.
: 1.1.3 - 172%. 1.1.4 - 171%.

Looking at these results, the only characters that were ko'd at a different percent were , and , which seemingly proves that they did get a 1 unit weight decrease. However, and were supposed to have weight increases, yet were ko'd at the same percent in both versions. On a similar note, , who was thought to have a weight decrease, also got ko'd at the same percent in both versions. This seems to point at the fact of , and not getting a weight change at all.

Another thing that is interesting is that also got ko'd at the same percent in both versions, while got ko'd 1% earlier in the 1.1.4 patch, so this points at only Sheik getting a weight decrease out of the two, unlike expected.

Completely off topic a moment, can anybody explain why dies 1% later than ? Surely if anything, you'd expect her to die 1% later iff anything, as her hurtbox is slightly smaller, but you'd actually expect them to be ko'd at the same percent being clones... are Marth and Lucina really the same weight? Or is Lucina 1 unit lighter?

 

[Darklink401]

Maybe Marth got a weight buff?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Maybe Marth got a weight buff?

Thing is, if he did, it happened patches ago and slipped by unnoticed, because Lucina got KO'd at 181% in both 1.1.3 and 1.1.4, and Marth got KO'd at 182% in both 1.1.3 and 1.1.4.

This has me intrigued now. Time for more testing...

 

[Dinofan1000]

Can someone check 's frame data? Something feels faster....

 

[Meshima]

Right, back from my tests into character weights. I tested every character with supposed changes, including the characters with supposed weight changes (like Rosalina, Ganon etc), just for confirmation.

For the test, I was using one 1.1.3 version of 3DS, and one 1.1.4 version of 3DS. The stage was regular Duck Hunt. I was using Marth's Up Throw to test the percent that the characters get KO'd off the top. I will just note that some characters for whatever reason, some characters never DI'd, like Sonic, and some always DI'd in, like Falcon. Regardless, it doesn't affect the results of each individual. Here are my results...

Spoiler: Weight test results

: 1.1.3 - 192%. 1.1.4 - 192%.
: 1.1.3 - 191%. 1.1.4 - 191%.
: 1.1.3 - 199%. 1.1.4 - 199%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 192%. 1.1.4 - 192%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 177%. 1.1.4 - 177%.
: 1.1.3 - 165%. 1.1.4 - 165%.
: 1.1.3 - 161%. 1.1.4 - 161%.
: 1.1.3 - 199%. 1.1.4 - 199%.
: 1.1.3 - 198%. 1.1.4 - 198%.
: 1.1.3 - 154%. 1.1.4 - 154%.
: 1.1.3 - 176%. 1.1.4 - 176%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 182%. 1.1.4 - 182%.
: 1.1.3 - 156%. 1.1.4 - 155%.
: 1.1.3 - 188%. 1.1.4 - 188%.
: 1.1.3 - 168%. 1.1.4 - 167%.
: 1.1.3 - 172%. 1.1.4 - 172%.
: 1.1.3 - 165%. 1.1.4 - 165%.
: 1.1.3 - 181%. 1.1.4 - 181%.
: 1.1.3 - 173%. 1.1.4 - 173%.
: 1.1.3 - 175%. 1.1.4 - 175%.
: 1.1.3 - 166%. 1.1.4 - 166%.
: 1.1.3 - 172%. 1.1.4 - 171%.

Looking at these results, the only characters that were ko'd at a different percent were , and , which seemingly proves that they did get a 1 unit weight decrease. However, and were supposed to have weight increases, yet were ko'd at the same percent in both versions. On a similar note, , who was thought to have a weight decrease, also got ko'd at the same percent in both versions. This seems to point at the fact of , and not getting a weight change at all.

Another thing that is interesting is that also got ko'd at the same percent in both versions, while got ko'd 1% earlier in the 1.1.4 patch, so this points at only Sheik getting a weight decrease out of the two, unlike expected.

Completely off topic a moment, can anybody explain why dies 1% later than ? Surely if anything, you'd expect her to die 1% later iff anything, as her hurtbox is slightly smaller, but you'd actually expect them to be ko'd at the same percent being clones... are Marth and Lucina really the same weight? Or is Lucina 1 unit lighter?

You can confirm and has changed their weight by using Garden of Hope's seesaw method.
has much weight than , has less weight than .
Or the characters you suppose may not changed their weight has already changed in 1.1.3 era? Could you confirm that?

In my testing, I assumed their weight from max % of non-hard-launch(I don't know the terms but this mean the max % of character get >80KB).

Edit:
has less weight than , not .
Thanks for pointging out.

 

[Bowserboy3]

You can confirm and has changed their weight by using Garden of Hope's seesaw method.
has much weight than , has less weight than .
Or the characters you suppose may not changed their weight has already changed in 1.1.3 era? Could you confirm that?

In my testing, I assumed their weight from max % of non-hard-launch(I don't know the terms but this mean the max % of character get >80KB).

What is this seesaw method?

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

Has anyone found what changed about R.O.B.? I assume it's graphical at this point and the eye glitch is still in apparently.

 

[Mario766]

Sonic weighs less than Olimar what.

Unless you mean Kirby weighs more than Rosalina, while he weighs the SAME as Olimar.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Darklink401 To clarify, on the Wii U, both Marth and Lucina die at the same percent on Omega Battlefield from Marth's Up Throw, at 167%. Dunno why it was different on the 3DS...

 

[Mellos]

Stupid question but... are we still waiting for a "full" data mining to get all the changes or can we only find out by testing everything manually?

 

[Jams.]

What is this seesaw method?

The two scales (they look like little boxes with ropes) on opposite ends of the Garden of Hope stage move up and down depending on the weight of what's on them. You can get relative weights of characters this way (ie. if you put equally heavy characters on the scales, they won't move at all).

 

[LRodC]

Completely off topic a moment, can anybody explain why dies 1% later than ? Surely if anything, you'd expect her to die 1% later iff anything, as her hurtbox is slightly smaller, but you'd actually expect them to be ko'd at the same percent being clones... are Marth and Lucina really the same weight? Or is Lucina 1 unit lighter?

This was the same in 1.1.3 too. I noticed it when testing with Mewtwo's up throw kill percents. Don't think anything changed this patch with either of their weights.


It's strange, but it's nothing new.

 

[Vipermoon]

I can confirm that Lucina always sometimes died 1% earlier.

 

[John12346]

So do we know what about Wii Fit changed? "data/param/fighter/fighter_param_vl_wiifit.bin" differs after all...

 

[Nobie]

Vertical kills are a bad way to test weight because vertical kills factor in weight, fall speed, and gravity.

Go for horizontal KOs if you want to test just weight (or that cool seesaw method I'm hearing about from M Meshima ).