Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[link-a-link]

There was an Ike eruption buff in the patch notes not too long ago. Why was it removed?

 

[Aninymouse]

So basically, other than Charizard's Usmash, the characters that are unfinished pretty much only have aesthetic changes, OR weight, run/walk/fall/fastfall speed. or FAF?

It was said that Dark Pit & Captain Falcon's Final Smash visuals were altered, for instance.

Characters like ROB, Diddy, Yoshi, and possibly Sonic & Rosalina, likely have weight, speed, gravity, or FAF changes, then. Weight is confirmed for Sonic & Rosalina, but has FAF, speed, or fall speed been disproven?

Since Diddy's weight was unchanged, FAF/speed/gravity changes seem to be very likely.

Anyone who is able to compare 1.1.3 to 1.1.4 side by side (I would if I could) ought to check any character with unlisted changes in the OP of the official 1.1.4 Patch Notes for differences in run/walk speed, fall speed, fastfall speed, jump height, weight, etc. These kinds of alterations should not take long to find manually with two copies of the game.

FAF changes would take a long time to sort through manually, since you'd have to shield/airdodge after every attack side by side. Picking through the data would be best, here.

There was an Ike eruption buff in the patch notes not too long ago. Why was it removed?

False positive due to Kurogane Hammer error, I hear. Same with Roy's Flare Blade %.

Eruption did have its active hitbox framed buffed, though.

 

[S_B]

"Oh Goddamnit, Another One?!" tier: (Hilariously terrible 90% of the time with a 9% chance you run into one that's competent and 1% that utterly destroys you. So common that you'll quickly come to resent them.)

I would put Sheik and ZSS on my "Never see them, ever" tier, and Sonic is almost there as well.

I suspect I rarely see these characters because any little bit of lag makes them extremely sub-optimal so they're not the best for FG.

Agree with everything else, though.

 

[Aninymouse]

I believe that Samus' CS got buffed. KOs earlier now. 85 from spawn point of fd for mario and cloud. Used to be 102. Someone please verify.

Zapp Branniglenn can you manually confirm/deny that Samus's neutral B has been buffed in kill power?

 

[Kurogane Hammer]

False positive due to Kurogane Hammer error, I hear. Same with Roy's Flare Blade %.

Eruption did have its active hitbox framed buffed, though.

Both Eruption and Flare Blade use the programmed amount on KH, so technically they're not "errors".

Here's Roy's Flare Blade for example:

 

[Arcadenik]

Duck Hunt also had his dodges buffed, iirc.

The patch, as always, suggests interesting information on what the For Glory data might look like.

At the same time, it also reconfirms that the monitor team is not purely fixated on For Glory win rates, as I am quite skeptical that ZSS was/is in the top 4 For Glory win rates; she is a monster at the top 1% level, but not so much in the hands of more typical players. (Also see MK and Ryu)

Duck Hunt was buffed?

I knew there was something different about Duck Hunt despite no changes in moves. I guess dodges count as moves then... This should be good for my game.

 

[meleebrawler]

I would put Sheik and ZSS on my "Never see them, ever" tier, and Sonic is almost there as well.

I suspect I rarely see these characters because any little bit of lag makes them extremely sub-optimal so they're not the best for FG.

Agree with everything else, though.

I dunno, ZSS isn't really unheard of in For Glory (next to none of them are good, though. Mostly flip kick/paralyzer to dash grab spammers). Sonics, too.

The trends I see come more in player habits:

The Pro: self-explanitory, competitive level. May be streaming.

Only the Last Victory Counts: This person quits as soon as he gets a win, possibly dropping an insult.

Just Gotta Choose The Right Character: Randomly changes characters every match until they do better with one, then stick with it.

What's a "normal"?: Only uses specials, very seldom uses A button.

...To name a few.

 

[Vipermoon]

Both Eruption and Flare Blade use the programmed amount on KH, so technically they're not "errors".

Here's Roy's Flare Blade for example:

That's interesting. Just curious, how does something do damage different than the programmed amount?

 

[Lavani]

Duck Hunt was buffed?

I knew there was something different about Duck Hunt despite no changes in moves. I guess dodges count as moves then... This should be good for my game.

That was back in 1.1.0.

That's interesting. Just curious, how does something do damage different than the programmed amount?

The same way smashes can do different damage via charging; it just multiplies the base amount based on charge time.

 

[Aninymouse]

Both Eruption and Flare Blade use the programmed amount on KH, so technically they're not "errors".

Here's Roy's Flare Blade for example:

I see, so it's due to the fact that it's a charging move, I assume. A false positive, but not KH's fault.

Is it your website? I've never been there, since it won't load on my device. If it is, thanks for putting together this resource for our community.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Duck Hunt was buffed?

I knew there was something different about Duck Hunt despite no changes in moves. I guess dodges count as moves then... This should be good for my game.

Lo', the Patron Saint of Duck Hunt. These buffs happened back during the summer (patch 1.1.0) You're about 8 months late to the party.

 

[Xygonn]

Zapp Branniglenn can you manually confirm/deny that Samus's neutral B has been buffed in kill power?

It was placebo.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Duck Hunt was buffed?

I knew there was something different about Duck Hunt despite no changes in moves. I guess dodges count as moves then... This should be good for my game.

We were talking about characters who were never buffed, and Duck Hunt came up. I'm afraid no such changes have been confirmed for this patch, as they have already happened previously.

Zapp Branniglenn can you manually confirm/deny that Samus's neutral B has been buffed in kill power?

You claim that Mario dies at the spawn point of FD at 102%, with Mario set to control, and this is correct in 1.13. At least, it's the point where you see those red lightning particle effects on hit. But my post-patch reference is the 3DS version, and I can't use that FD for reference. You're certain you got results as low as 85? It doesn't look like the move has that sort of knockback

 

[HeavyLobster]

I would put Sheik and ZSS on my "Never see them, ever" tier, and Sonic is almost there as well.

I suspect I rarely see these characters because any little bit of lag makes them extremely sub-optimal so they're not the best for FG.

Agree with everything else, though.

Sheik is pretty rare on FG, but Zero Suit is everywhere. Don't even play online much but your generic Paralyzer -> Grab Zero Skill mains are everywhere.

 

[Xygonn]

We were talking about characters who were never buffed, and Duck Hunt came up. I'm afraid no such changes have been confirmed for this patch, as they have already happened previously.



You claim that Mario dies at the spawn point of FD at 102%, with Mario set to control, and this is correct in 1.13. At least, it's the point where you see those red lightning particle effects on hit. But my post-patch reference is the 3DS version, and I can't use that FD for reference. You're certain you got results as low as 85? It doesn't look like the move has that sort of knockback

Its 85 on Wii u but others checked and it was the same they said. People were getting 92 on ds.

 

[Lavani]

I'm seeing 85% on 3DS DLC omega stages and 92% on 3DS FD for 1.14 CS kill percents vs Mario. Red lightning at 87%/94%.

Charge Shot's data file is unchanged.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Its 85 on Wii u but others checked and it was the same they said. People were getting 92 on ds.

Oh, when he said "spawn point" I thought he meant the center, where you respawn after death.

 

[Aninymouse]

Thank y'all for checking, regardless.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sheik is pretty rare on FG, but Zero Suit is everywhere. Don't even play online much but your generic Paralyzer -> Grab Zero Skill mains are everywhere.

I think it's somewhat region based but I think For Glory is a fairly accurate representation of what characters are popular in the competitive scene too. For example, Ganon and Little Mac are still fairly common at tournaments despite how bad both of them are agreed to be. Just to point out some changes I've noticed with character representation in the past year:

- Popularity took nosedives after their respective nerfs.
- Started off really popular, then became fairly obscure, and then jumped in popularity after their respective buffs.
-Even with buffs, have stayed about as popular the entire time
-Been gradually becoming less popular as time has gone on.
-Been in the same spot pretty much their entire existence regardless of tournament results or nerfs.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Okay. This thread has been derailed enough. Let's get back to actual patch discussion, shall we?

 

[JohnKnight416]

Link doesn't need it. He's fantastic in the competitive scene and he has amazing combos. They may not be true combos, but staying up close, Link can punish most anything as long as they are not Sonic or Rosalina... or really the top 7 characters in the game.

I really liked this patch. No big changes. No characters really need them except Samus with her melee game and Palutena. To me, this was a great patch. Pretty much everyone is good. The only changes I really wanted was to have a slight bit of lag on ZSS' UAir and decrease the range on Sheik's FAir. That's it.

Also, anyone find anything with Cloud? I can't test it against a previous patch, but it feels like nothing is changed on him. Anyone else?

The fact that there are characters that stands above the rest of the characters in Sm4sh, such as the top 7, is precisely the reason why I think that certain characters needed to be buffed and that the characters who are basically in the higher tiers should receive little to no changes or nerfs. That way there won't be any bad match ups between certain character and that players can freely enjoy playing their mains no matter what.
Link is just a prior example of a character who I see struggles in certain areas during a match and needs to be buff and rebalanced. For example, his melee attacks don't allow for him to lead into follow ups very efficiently, making his combos unreliable sometimes, even in competitive play.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

I'm just glad they nerfed ZSS.
About time, she needed that nerf.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm just glad they nerfed ZSS.
About time, she needed that nerf.

Meh; like I said before, rage Uspecial still has people fall out before the last hit at die at 40% off the top. This does nothing about that. Flip Jump is far more overtuned than Boost Kick anyway.

 

[jespoke]

I play a lot of For Glory (I suffer from Sandbox Syndrome way too much at local tournaments) , and if I were to say which characters you see the most (as of last Monday and based on my own experience):

"Oh Goddamnit, Another One?!" tier: (Hilariously terrible 90% of the time with a 9% chance you run into one that's competent and 1% that utterly destroys you. So common that you'll quickly come to resent them.)

"At Least It's Not the Top Category" tier: (Usually average and very common secondaries. Maybe not see them if you only play for a few hours)

"Not Overused but Not Unused Either" tier: (Average or terrible a vast majority of the time. Along with the top category, probably the most popular with kids. May go a day without seeing one.)

"A New Challenger Appears" tier: (Usually the best players you'll come across on an average basis, especially if they sole use the character specified. May go a few days without seeing one.)

"Almost Forgot This Character was in the Game" tier: (Eye crossingly bad or nightmarishly good with virtually nothing inbetween. If the person plays one of these characters, they're usually super dedicated to them or is likely competent with a good portion of the cast. May go a week or more without seeing one)

... Funny, my top 5 most played characters are each in their own category. (Ike, Marth, Pikachu, Charizard, Greninja)

From what i can tell the Patch Notes are still missing the KBG changes on Little Mac, and the U-tilt changes look wrong i suspect the startup is supposed to be the other way around. And Ike's Eruption flame duration was removed, but that wasn't debunked right?

 

[Megamang]

The fact that there are characters that stands above the rest of the characters in Sm4sh, such as the top 7, is precisely the reason why I think that certain characters needed to be buffed and that the characters who are basically in the higher tiers should receive little to no changes or nerfs. That way there won't be any bad match ups between certain character and that players can freely enjoy playing their mains no matter what.
Link is just a prior example of a character who I see struggles in certain areas during a match and needs to be buff and rebalanced. For example, his melee attacks don't allow for him to lead into follow ups very efficiently, making his combos unreliable sometimes, even in competitive play.

Buffing the lower characters is good, but some nerfing is also required. Buffing the lower tiers too much creates polarizing attributes which makes MUs less likely to be even. How would you make Marth compete with current shiek, without him destroying luigi? Buff luigi lots, but then he annhilates pika... etc etc, its easier to bring shiek down. Thinkaman (i think it was him) has a much better and in depth post on this idea, buried in an old CCI thread.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I play a lot of For Glory (...)

I do too but my experience is very different. I see nothing but wall to wall top and high tier.
The BR4 tier list very closely mirrors my FG ratio of encounters.
It is a constant stream. I come across another Samus player maybe once in 5 sit down sessions. If I do come a non-top matchup I try to play them as much as a I can, but anyone who loses badly and wants to win rather than explore the matchup rapidly shifts to the top tiers.
What is your win ratio out of curiosity? Have you ever landed a 50+ damage true combo on for-glory (not a string) ?

On topic: there are repeated calls to check Samus' F-air hitboxes in the Samus forums. Can anyone check if they're larger? i.e reach further forward?

 

[Starcutter]

I played Kirby in tournament yesterday, the first time since the patch and I'm pretty sure I noticed something. Pretty much everything seems the same, except the weight buff, AND his Fthrow doesn't combo to fair at zero against some characters it used to, like Mario. I'm not sure if there's a knockback reduction or an angle change, but I do know that the throw combo doesn't exactly work the same way it did before.

If anything was changed, it would be fthrow. Can someone look into this to confirm I'm not going crazy

 

[|RK|]

I played Kirby in tournament yesterday, the first time since the patch and I'm pretty sure I noticed something. Pretty much everything seems the same, except the weight buff, AND his Fthrow doesn't combo to fair at zero against some characters it used to, like Mario. I'm not sure if there's a knockback reduction or an angle change, but I do know that the throw combo doesn't exactly work the same way it did before.

If anything was changed, it would be fthrow. Can someone look into this to confirm I'm not going crazy

Hm. Does F-Throw to double jump fair work at higher percents now?

 

[S_B]

Meh; like I said before, rage Uspecial still has people fall out before the last hit at die at 40% off the top. This does nothing about that. Flip Jump is far more overtuned than Boost Kick anyway.

I think what we really need for both ZSS and Sheik are just a few more frames of endlag on some of their moves, especially aerials. SH Nair for ZSS is stupidly safe and most characters don't have an answer to it unless they powershield, and Sheik needs some actual landing lag on aerials, period.

Also, I had mentioned earlier a change in Bowser's Uthrow damage but it turns out that it was incorrect (I edited the post and removed it). Just wanted to clarify in case someone wonders.

Buffing the lower characters is good, but some nerfing is also required. Buffing the lower tiers too much creates polarizing attributes which makes MUs less likely to be even. How would you make Marth compete with current shiek, without him destroying luigi? Buff luigi lots, but then he annhilates pika... etc etc, its easier to bring shiek down. Thinkaman (i think it was him) has a much better and in depth post on this idea, buried in an old CCI thread.

I've said it numerous times in the past, but buffing everyone to Sheik level would make SSB4 resemble Brawl Minus in a big way.

It's far easier and safer for balance purposes to tone down overly powerful characters than it is to try to bring everyone else up to their level.

 

[Starcutter]

Hm. Does F-Throw to double jump fair work at higher percents now?

Probably. It also means that fthrow dair could work at 0 if your opponent is caught off guard. I don't think that's guaranteed tho.

But can someone hard confirm these changes? I'm not much of an expert on determining things like exact angles and knockback.

I'm still not 100% sure that it was changed, only 75% sure.

 

[Problem2]

A common misconception is that the best way to balance a game is to buff everyone to top tier or nerf everything that is good, when the best way to rebalance your game is to find your center point of balance and pull all the characters closer to it. Look at Middle, High, and Low tier in the current Smash 4 tier list. They have the most characters in the game.

Now is the reason these tiers have so many characters is because we legitimately have a ton of characters who fall around the same level of potential? Or is the reason because we as the players have not dissected their potential as much since they are not as relevant as the top tiers or as obviously bad as the bottom tiers. If the latter, then the characters in those tiers need to be dissected and analyzed and broken down so we can understand the center point of the game's balance even better. If the former, we need to move on to the next step.

It needs to be noticed exactly why some characters are more viable then others. In some cases, there is a glaring flaw a character has that can't be overcome in the highest levels of play. Sometimes it a couple of match-ups that are too hard to beat and those match-ups happen to be against the most relevant characters, holding back an otherwise normal character.

I guess the point is, balancing a fighting game requires a lot of factors. These characters aren't graded in "power levels' like DBZ, where the higher the number, the better they are at EVERYTHING. Characters have a combination of traits, and the different combination of traits results in a different number of match-ups and the combination of match-ups, when weighted by relevancy, determine how likely a character is to succeed.

 

[Asdioh]

Is there any possibility that the changes made to Kirby regarding hats wasn't just the new hats from Bayo/Corrin, but actually fixing this old glitch?

Spoiler

Kirby's had this glitch for a while, when he's wearing certain hats, his face can get stuck when he's using his air jumps. The easiest ways to cause it that I know of are 1. get hit, then airjump when hitstun ends, your face will be stuck like picture two most of the time. And 2. use Stone, then jump when you transform back, your face usually gets stuck in the eyes closed position like picture one.

I haven't seen this glitch happen a single time in 1.1.4, and usually it happens quite often.

edit: I forgot to mention that I tested it before making this post, and could not replicate it.
I'll be very sad if it's gone, because it just means they take away everything FUN Kirby gets. First the ability for Stone to slide off edges (first Smash game where this can NOT happen, thanks to that patch) and then they took away the Dark Pit Bow floating glitch, and the Fire Kirby glitch. They HATE fun.

And is ROB's face still glitched?

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Meh; like I said before, rage Uspecial still has people fall out before the last hit at die at 40% off the top. This does nothing about that. Flip Jump is far more overtuned than Boost Kick anyway.

Rage or not, I honestly don't think anyone should kill that early, specially if it kills Bowser so early when he's supposed to be hard to knock out in the first place.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Hey, let's get to work on at the very least finding the parameter changes. If we can't access them in the game's coding, then we should compare them side by side with gifs.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So what is there left to confirm?

 

[TheZepdragon]

Rage or not, I honestly don't think anyone should kill that early, specially if it kills Bowser so early when he's supposed to be hard to knock out in the first place.

Bowser being killed at low percents off the top is dumb and makes no sense. Even though his uThrow did get a slight nerf i still appreciate the buff to his side b which helps him in his neutral game. I don't get some of these buffs though on other characters like Jr's fsmash which was already super safe.

 

[Aninymouse]

So what is there left to confirm?

* Charizard's exact Usmash changes
* Possible parameter changes for: Diddy Kong, Fox, Cloud, ROB, Wii Fit, Yoshi, Zelda, Captain Falcon, Dark Pit

I believe that's it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Actually we don't know what the Dark Pit change is. Convinced it's something dumb like a Final Smash visual though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

* Possible parameter changes for: Diddy Kong, Fox, Cloud, ROB, Wii Fit, Yoshi, Zelda

I can also confirm that none of these guys and gals have changes to endlag/landing lag.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So what is there left to confirm?

Like 8 or so different characters that still has nothing found for em yet cause most of the datamining has been focused on FE characters and Falco.