Meta "The Final Content" [1.1.4] Patch Discussion

[StarshipGroove]

Really hoping the improvements to the Fire Emblem swordsmen don't invalidate Ness. He always had a hard time against sword characters and Marth got buffed like crazy.

 

[Fatmanonice]

What a garbage patch. What's their reasoning for continually neglecting D3 and Jiggs when they've literally buffed every other heavy/low tier in the game? And why do mid-tier characters continually receive buffs instead? Are they not going to properly address Shiek, Zero Suit Spamus, Rosa, etc either?

It's been a couple of days but I thought I'd address this. This is unlikely to be the last patch because even in just a few days, numerous bugs have been found with Bayo and Corrin. Obviously, nothing can be promised but I still wouldn't say it's the end. Furthermore, I've noticed that they usually focus on 5-6 characters at a time for major buff dumps. This patch's biggest winners were Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Bowser Jr with Ike, Toon Link, Little Mac, and Falco getting some nice adjustments too. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa did receive some nerfs too but I suspect that the reason they weren't too major was because Bayo and Corrin were just added to the game and it's first being seen to how they fit into the grand scheme of things.

A lot of people saw Cloud as the best swordsman by far, though, and given that many high level players had at least a pocket Cloud, we saw way more of him than we did Marth or Ike put together at higher levels.

.

Aren't you forgetting someone?

 

[jespoke]

It's been a couple of days but I thought I'd address this. This is unlikely to be the last patch because even in just a few days, numerous bugs have been found with Bayo and Corrin. Obviously, nothing can be promised but I still wouldn't say it's the end. Furthermore, I've noticed that they usually focus on 5-6 characters at a time for major buff dumps. This patch's biggest winners were Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Bowser Jr with Ike, Toon Link, Little Mac, and Falco getting some nice adjustments too. Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa did receive some nerfs too but I suspect that the reason they weren't too major was because Bayo and Corrin were just added to the game and it's first being seen to how they fit into the grand scheme of things.

I'll second this, seeing as it took me 1 single Classic run to encounter Corrin's weird momentum bugs when his attacks connect at the same time as other things, this instance flinging me off the side of Duck Hunt all the while maintaining ground level, standing animation and Dragon Fang bite endlag.

It might end up being bugfixes only, but i believe there will be another patch

 

[S_B]

Aren't you forgetting someone?

SwordsMAN, not sword-wielding bat-winged basketball.

(he'd be a lot more manly if they gave him his Antonio Banderas voice from the cartoons, though, and Southern D3 :D )

 

[FlynnCL]

Even if Sakurai planned this to be the last patch, all it will take is another Japanese tier list that places Ike in low tier.

"Masahiro Sakurai, why haven't you left your office? Everyone's home - the staff disbanded."
"Call each and every of them back, this instant! There's still more work to be done."

 

[Fatmanonice]

Something else to keep in mind is that they just got to Roy when Ryu and Cloud haven't been touched yet and, as I said, Corrin and Bayo practically need adjustments. There's also the fact that characters can take awhile to have their problems fixed ( took about 1.5 years to get to) and double dipping is not that unusual for buffs. As far as characters not receiving any buffs so far who have needed them, we only have , not bad for a game that almost has 60 characters. When it comes to characters that were all called low or even bottom tier at some point, have all gone "back to the workshop" multiple times since the game first came out to receive buffs so for characters who still strongly need adjustments like , the possibility of them getting more is far from impossible.

 

[Sammi Husky]

I'll double check Diddy to see if there are any ACMD changes just to be certain. I'll be going over parameters today hopefully as well.

 

[S_B]

I'll double check Diddy to see if there are any ACMD changes just to be certain. I'll be going over parameters today hopefully as well.

Good to hear.

I feel bad that @TSM ZeRo came to this thread seeking Diddy's potential changes and no one took him seriously (he even offered a bounty on the info).

A lot of top players avoid Smashboards because of a toxic reputation and we kinda delivered on that...

 

[Sammi Husky]

There are no ACMD changes. That means iFrames, hitbox data, hitbox timing, etc haven't been changed. Parameters are listed as being possibly changed though iirc, which contains things like IASA frames and landing lag as well as Including character attributes like weight and air mobility.

 

[Ffamran]

On a similar note, I always found that Ike and Shulk' ftilts both had the similar if not the same maximum horizontal range

People have answered this already and this should have been discussed elsewhere, but, regardless, it makes sense from an animation point of view why Ike's Ftilt has more range despite Ragnell being a shorter sword. Ike leans forward to swipe his sword out while Shulk stands still to swing. Bad angle on this one, but you can see Ike leaning in.

While Shulk doesn't. Shulk does step forward, but not in a lunging way like Ike.

 

[Lavani]

Will just rule out weight for Diddy right now, as he dies at 721% from Palutena's jab both pre and post patch.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of weight, was Fox's weight increase from 79 to 80 debunked? Guessing he might just have some random Final Smash changes instead. Oh look! Pixel #3479 is one shade of blue lighter!

 

[Fatmanonice]

People generally don't like being offered money for minor tasks, at least not in American culture. It's typically seen as condescending ("what am I, a bell hop?"). Mow someone's grass for $20 bucks? Okay. Read some coding. Why can't you do it? There's also the fact that he's friends with a good chunk of the most influential people in the Smash community with more general knowledge than the typical Smash fan who could just as easily do it for free. Kind of insulting too since we have several people who have been working on getting the data for absolutely free the past couple of days.

 

[S_B]

People generally don't like being offered money for minor tasks, at least not in American culture.

Plenty of Americans on Fiverr.com so I'm not sure if I can agree with you there.

As for the money, it'd be the easiest $20 someone could make if they were going to figure out Diddy's changes ANYWAY.

 

[UberMadman]

There's a new typo on the Bowser Jr. page. His Forward Smash was cut down to 55 total frames, which is a buff, but the page lists it as being pushed up to 65 total frames, which implies a nonexistent nerf.

Poor guy can't catch a break, it seems.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Plenty of Americans on Fiverr.com so I'm not sure if I can agree with you there.

As for the money, it'd be the easiest $20 someone could make if they were going to figure out Diddy's changes ANYWAY.

Which is kind of the point. Mulling through the data usually takes 3 or 4 days and we eventually get everything anyways. Plus, again, we're a community and people shouldn't be paid to do things that a vast majority of us here do without even being asked.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Will just rule out weight for Diddy right now, as he dies at 721% from Palutena's jab both pre and post patch.

Curious as to why that of all things would be used to test weight.

 

[S_B]

Which is kind of the point. Mulling through the data usually takes 3 or 4 days and we eventually get everything anyways. Plus, again, we're a community and people shouldn't be paid to do things that a vast majority of us here do without even being asked.

And I see no harm in offering $20 to move Diddy to the front of the line. /shrug

 

[Kurogane Hammer]

Which is kind of the point. Mulling through the data usually takes 3 or 4 days and we eventually get everything anyways. Plus, again, we're a community and people shouldn't be paid to do things that a vast majority of us here do without even being asked.

Feel free to pay us tho

 

[Lavani]

Curious as to why that of all things would be used to test weight.

High kill percent makes even a small deviation noticeable, as opposed to a stronger kill move where there could be a change in weight but the victim still hypothetically dies at 40% before and after anyway. It also only has one hitbox and hasn't been changed between patches.

Tangentially relevant, Zelda's dsmash kills Sheik at 127% on 3DS FD both before and after the patch. With Palutena's jab, Sheik dies at 666% before and 663% after.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Feel free to pay us tho

Believe me, if I could I would. Recently got my master's but am currently hilariously unemployed. The work you and the rest of the dataminers do is greatly appreciated though.

 

[Thinkaman]

The real problem is taking a step towards a culture in which frame data or other community information can be withheld due to direct financial incentives.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Sammi Husky Just a question, are projectiles under a seperate folder (articles iirc). I think that explains why many Lucario mains feel like they can cancel their aura sphere into usmash more easily (or maybe they just got better at it lol)

Didn't the last patch make that easier? The charging sphere hits targets more vertically, and with less knockback.

People have answered this already and this should have been discussed elsewhere, but, regardless, it makes sense from an animation point of view why Ike's Ftilt has more range despite Ragnell being a shorter sword. Ike leans forward to swipe his sword out while Shulk stands still to swing.

Ike's Ftilt is him leaning over to open a door for an elderly couple. Shulk's stance is being up to bat in a game of baseball. Cricket, whatever.

As far as characters not receiving any buffs so far who have needed them, we only have , not bad for a game that almost has 60 characters.

Duck did receive a fix to his rapid jab which used to be extremely escapable. It's good for a character with generally poor close combat and disadvantage state to have his fastest move actually function. His Nair also had 5 frames shaved off its landlag. Another "get off me" move.

 

[S_B]

The real problem is taking a step towards a culture in which frame data or other community information can be withheld due to direct financial incentives.

I can't see that becoming the norm, though.

People are going to release it here one way or another eventually. Holding out just wouldn't work.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The real problem is taking a step towards a culture in which frame data or other community information can be withheld due to direct financial incentives.

This too. Having the data go to the highest bidder would be really sleazy but this sort of thing happens literally everyday in the business world. Definitely not a good thing to encourage.

 

[Thinkaman]

Duck Hunt also had his dodges buffed, iirc.

The patch, as always, suggests interesting information on what the For Glory data might look like.

At the same time, it also reconfirms that the monitor team is not purely fixated on For Glory win rates, as I am quite skeptical that ZSS was/is in the top 4 For Glory win rates; she is a monster at the top 1% level, but not so much in the hands of more typical players. (Also see MK and Ryu)

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I can't see that becoming the norm, though.

People are going to release it here one way or another eventually. Holding out just wouldn't work.

You can pay somebody to do anything you want, and it's that other person's right to take or decline that job. But these specific patch notes are a collective effort by volunteers. And if we were being commissioned, I'd rather it be from some part of the community like the Smash 4 Backroom rather than an individual who has no obligation to distribute the information for others. These notes will be made in time, he just has to wait like everybody else. And a player of his skill should be capable of finding out through his own testing and practice whether a character he plays is different in some way. The dude makes his living playing the game, so you can't argue he has neither the time nor resources. Any pro worth his salt would keep notes on every detail that they can check against for a new patch.

Duck Hunt also had his dodges buffed, iirc.

The patch, as always, suggests interesting information on what the For Glory data might look like.

At the same time, it also reconfirms that the monitor team is not purely fixated on For Glory win rates

I'm already convinced they monitor more than just For Glory. Remember the change to absorb and pocket moves in team smash modes? In online modes, 2v2 Smash does not have team attack on, so you can't pocket your partner's full charged aura sphere. Only in competitive doubles tournaments do we have this artificial rule. Also, literally every change ever made to a custom move that wasn't just a trickle-down buff/nerf from the default special. Order Tackle is no longer bugged, Extreme Balloon Trip is way less extreme, Garlic Breath has a hitbox that matches the animation. Sure there's still a lot of borderline unusable custom specials out there, but at least they addressed the same few that we also addressed.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Maybe I should restate my previous statement as characters who have received significant buff dumps. According to Smash Wiki, has only received adjustments to his jab, fsmash, and nair with jab and fsmash being in the same patch (1.1.0). In comparison, has had positive adjustments to all her tilts, nair, usmash, grab, and fair in three separate patches and has positive adjustments to her jab, utilt, dtilt, uair, dair, nair, usmash, fsmash, and phantom knight in five separate patches. If if I were to rephrase my previous statement, would be the ones that qualify while still count for the original statement.

 

[Sammi Husky]

I would like to believe anyone who actually would give him data wouldn't take his money. At least me personally, i wouldnt feel right about it. The reason most people want the patch notes to begin with is because the data should be free and public from the start amiright. I only double checked Diddy because it would be my pleasure to alleviate some of the obvious worry he had over changes, regardless of money or his stature. It's just something i would do if anybody else seemed legitimately concerned. (of course i'm also a fan, but that's my prerogative).

Anyways, this is all fairly irrelevant to actual datamining. I've never dumped or diffed params before so if / when i do it'll have to be after i write some scripts to do it.

 

[S_B]

Duck Hunt also had his dodges buffed, iirc.

The patch, as always, suggests interesting information on what the For Glory data might look like.

At the same time, it also reconfirms that the monitor team is not purely fixated on For Glory win rates, as I am quite skeptical that ZSS was/is in the top 4 For Glory win rates; she is a monster at the top 1% level, but not so much in the hands of more typical players. (Also see MK and Ryu)

I rarely see ZSSes on FG (not that I play all that often any longer since I don't want lag to ruin my timing for tourneys, but...).

I think everything we've seen indicates a pretty clear transformation in the way Sakurai and/or Nintendo is approaching SSB and its competitive scene.

In Brawl, Sakurai put tripping in to ensure it "wasn't played too seriously". He couldn't make it much clearer than that that he didn't like the competitive scene.

SSB4 paid more attention to general balance, and it even has a 1v1 mode in which players can play without the random element of items thrown in. This was already a sizable shift away from the mindset of Brawl.

Then, they nerfed doubles shenanigans, reducing pocket/absorption, etc. by 50%, something that could ONLY have been done in response to seeing issues in doubles games being played in tournaments. After all, there's no online matchmaking mode in which 2v2s had team attack on.

We've also seen the addition of hoo-haas for characters that need buffs. This is significant because these are tools that are generally beyond the reach of casual players but will definitely be used by competitive players.

Now, Sakurai is attending tournaments and seeing firsthand how people handle the game in a competitive setting, and I believe he has since come around to the idea that SSB can be both a party AND competitive game at the same time.

I wonder if he would've done anything differently had he built SSB4 from the ground up with his current mindset, but it's clear that he/Namco/Nintendo value balance in both casual and competitive settings, and that's awesome.

You can pay somebody to do anything you want, and it's that other person's right to take or decline that job. But these specific patch notes are a collective effort by volunteers. And if we were being commissioned, I'd rather it be from some part of the community like the Smash 4 Backroom rather than an individual who has no obligation to distribute the information for others.

Oh, wait...

I assumed we were talking about moving Diddy to the front of the line and posting the results here. I didn't for a moment assume that Zero meant only giving HIM Diddy's info and/or withholding it from anyone else...

 

[Sammi Husky]

Oh, wait...

I assumed we were talking about moving Diddy to the front of the line and posting the results here. I didn't for a moment assume that Zero meant only giving HIM Diddy's info and/or withholding it from anyone else...

I don't think that's what Zero meant to be honest. It seemed more to me like the first one, just putting a priority on Diddy's stuff

 

[Luig]

It's very easy to see the buff in Ike's fair, considering how far away mario is in this pic

Spoiler

 

[FallofBrawl]

Um i never got the impression that Zero meant "give the info to only me and I'll give you a 20", I thought it was more like "hey can someone find and post these diddy changes ill give ya 20".

Anyways, if projectiles aren't in these folders or the parameter ones, we could potentially be looking at more sly changes we don't know of.

 

[Sammi Husky]

Um i never got the impression that Zero meant "give the info to only me and I'll give you a 20", I thought it was more like "hey can someone find and post these diddy changes ill give ya 20".

Anyways, if projectiles aren't in these folders or the parameter ones, we could potentially be looking at more sly changes we don't know of.

Most projectiles are under the character's Weapon folder

 

[BOB R.O.B.]

Can us R.O.B. players at least get a response about what changed with R.O.B.? Like we can test to make sure of something if we have something to follow on. I'm assuming it's something like final smash lighting or visuals.

 

[Sammi Husky]

Can us R.O.B. players at least get a response about what changed with R.O.B.? Like we can test to make sure of something if we have something to follow on. I'm assuming it's something like final smash lighting or visuals.

The only one of his files that has changed is parameters, which we haven't gotten to yet. Parameters only cover stuff like landing lag, weight, character attributes and IASA

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The only one of his files that has changed is parameters, which we haven't gotten to yet. Parameters only cover stuff like landing lag, weight, character attributes and IASA

Furthermore, I can confirm that he has no changes to endlag or landing lag.

 

[Xygonn]

I believe that Samus' CS got buffed. KOs earlier now. 85 from spawn point of fd for mario and cloud. Used to be 102. Someone please verify.

 

[S_B]

I don't think that's what Zero meant to be honest. It seemed more to me like the first one, just putting a priority on Diddy's stuff

Same.

And given the fact that Diddy seemed to have been forgotten, I don't blame him.

One of his two mains was nerfed. Can't blame him for being curious about the other.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I play a lot of For Glory (I suffer from Sandbox Syndrome way too much at local tournaments) , and if I were to say which characters you see the most (as of last Monday and based on my own experience):

"Oh Goddamnit, Another One?!" tier: (Hilariously terrible 90% of the time with a 9% chance you run into one that's competent and 1% that utterly destroys you. So common that you'll quickly come to resent them.)

"At Least It's Not the Top Category" tier: (Usually average and very common secondaries. Maybe not see them if you only play for a few hours)

"Not Overused but Not Unused Either" tier: (Average or terrible a vast majority of the time. Along with the top category, probably the most popular with kids. May go a day without seeing one.)

"A New Challenger Appears" tier: (Usually the best players you'll come across on an average basis, especially if they sole use the character specified. May go a few days without seeing one.)

"Almost Forgot This Character was in the Game" tier: (Eye crossingly bad or nightmarishly good with virtually nothing inbetween. If the person plays one of these characters, they're usually super dedicated to them or is likely competent with a good portion of the cast. May go a week or more without seeing one)