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The EVO-ruleset (continued...)

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Samochan

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Hmm...

Seems like there actually might be a set % of how items are placed upon the arena.

One area is always from 41%-50% (mostly around 41%-42%), the second biggest area is 25%-34%(rarely below 32%) and the smallest has 23%-25% of the items spawned.

Also the most item spawn areas went like this: Green, Neutral, Red, Green, Neutral, Red/green. Pattern?
 

polarity

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One or more large scale tournaments with tangible stakes on the line; must exist, in order to literally force people to take the idea seriously enough to prepare, evolve and adapt to the concept and derivative strategies involved in an Item populated Brawl environment. Definitive conclusions regarding Items in a competitive environment cannot and will not derive from failure to provide that competitive institution.
Thank you. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand; all the theory fighting in the world is nothing compared to high-stakes competition.

You are all missing the point.

EVO and SRK are all about traditional fighting games. Most traditional fighting gamers HATE Smash Brothers, especially after Melee's incredible big and awesome tourney scene. They even had to surrender to Smash Brothers last year.

But now they have an opportunity to prove how much does Smash Bros. suck: Hosting a Casino-Style (Heck, if it is in Las Vegas...) Brawl Tournament.
Except many of the Evo organizers acknowledge Smash as a good game and respect its community (Sirlin, James Chen, the Cannon brothers...). Come on man, it's a ****ing video game, is there any need for a ******** conspiracy theory?

If personal preference of the Evo organizers had anything to do with what happened to games at Evo, you wouldn't see 3rd Strike at all, given all those guys, as SF2 OGs, are pretty much required to hate it. Yet, it's the biggest game at Evo...
 

SynikaL

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LOL, Pete. I actually clicked on that link.

Obviously our context is a little extreme, but we are merely pointing out things. Items ruin character balance somewhat, though, they could also FIX a lot of them as well given time.
This paragraph could stop right here, because I believe the fault in your mind-set is self evident.

We just don't know what real effects Items can have on the game's balance -- especially in light of the fact that we know little, if anything, about the game's Item spawn system. Also, because of this, I find this research acutely compelling. Could you imagine if we actually whittled down and distinguished the Item Spawn mechanics to a scientific knowledge that could be manipulated and utilized by players? The competitive avenues that could open sound very persuasive.

Of course, this is all contingent on the hope that we can minimize the randomness to a compelling degree with our knowledge (in relation to our current standards). I think we've established a good start.

I understand your disappointment about EVO being the initial proving grounds for such a radical change, but I cannot sympathize with your concern. EVO's as good a place to start these trials as any. The bigger the tournament the better.


Anyway...


Can someone help me understand A77's testing? I'm having trouble here:

A77 said:
Anything within the >> or << arrows on the stage counts for green/red. Anything outside them is neutral (anything borderline was considered neutral).
What are these colors and arrows referring to? I don't see these symbols in his post >_>;


-Kimo
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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LOL, Pete. I actually clicked on that link.



This paragraph could stop right here, because I believe the fault in your mind-set is self evident.

We just don't know what real effects Items can have on the game's balance -- especially in light of the fact that we know little, if anything, about the game's Item spawn system. Also, because of this, I find this research acutely compelling. Could you imagine if we actually whittled down and distinguished the Item Spawn mechanics to a scientific knowledge that could be manipulated and utilized by players? The competitive avenues that could open sound very persuasive.

Of course, this is all contingent on the hope that we can minimize the randomness to a compelling degree with our knowledge (in relation to our current standards). I think we've established a good start.

I understand your disappointment about EVO being the initial proving grounds for such a radical change, but I cannot sympathize with your concern. EVO's as good a place to start these trials as any. The bigger the tournament the better.
This is exactly what I'm trying to do.

I know that EVO's attitude towards this is, "Big venues bring the best results". I agree, you'll never be able to get results if you don't get a serious attitude attached to the research. Therefore, I've taken the stance of neutrality on this, if you happen to read my last post. I'm open to another group of Smashers exploring the possibilities of items in Brawl, as I feel that they could fix issues just as easily as they could create them,

I know my mindset in the first two games was anti-item, but this was because they were obviously random, as our experiences showed us, and that items were horribly broken in SS64. In Melee, they weren't as bad, but still fairly bad. I realize that in Brawl, the defensive mechanics have gotten to the point that I can avoid almost anything thrown at me, and with extremely easy catching, my recovery can't even be gimped. They actually have the
potential to increase depth if managed properly.

Thus, my research has been quite unbiased so far. I discovered that there is a lot of predictability in where the items COULD land, the next step would be figuring out how the spawns are calculated. I'm trying to figure that one out right now. I'll be sure to post my finding here, when I'm done. ^^
 

thesage

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I'd just like to say how items worked in melee... I found out this stuff using AR

They actually did have set spawn points, but there were so many spawn points that they basically covered the entire stage. For example FD's spawn points were:

* = spawn point
___ = stage
0 = space

00000*0000*0000*
000*0*0*0*0*0*0*0*
00_________________

Something like that. Items do have set spawn points, but there's so many of them, it doesn't really matter. The only stages I think this would matter are the larger stages like Temple and NPC, which are all banned anyways lol.

I would've posted this earlier, but I thought this was well known lol.

Also, I made a list showing what percents items kill at with and without DI, but I threw it away. I could re-test this.
 

Zankoku

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thesage, having set spawn points in Melee doesn't mean that there are set spawn points in Brawl. The ones in Melee, at least, never moved relative to the stage. None of us are exactly sure what Brawl does with item spawns, though.
 

thesage

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thesage, having set spawn points in Melee doesn't mean that there are set spawn points in Brawl. The ones in Melee, at least, never moved relative to the stage. None of us are exactly sure what Brawl does with item spawns, though.
From what I noticed in brawl they usually do spawn at the same points though. Timmay also agrees with me. This was also true in smash 64 too.

Turn on fast brawl and put items on high. You'll notice that they have the same spawn points. What I've think has changed since melee is that the spawn points closer to the players are the ones where items are most likely going to come out. Spawn points do not move with the characters, otherwise they wouldn't spawn horizontally near them and vertically far away.

Can somebody test out the item spawn when nobody is on the stage? Stall offstage with Luigi's ladder or something.

Edit: I would also like to say that items aren't so bad if you ban the broken ones. The problem is evo hasn't banned some of those yet lol (ray gun, smashball, motion sensor bomb, etc.). And the items left over just don't do anything at all.
 

polarity

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We just don't know what real effects Items can have on the game's balance -- especially in light of the fact that we know little, if anything, about the game's Item spawn system. Also, because of this, I find this research acutely compelling. Could you imagine if we actually whittled down and distinguished the Item Spawn mechanics to a scientific knowledge that could be manipulated and utilized by players? The competitive avenues that could open sound very persuasive.
Seriously. Look at all the previously-unknown information that's been discovered within mere days of Evo announcing its ruleset, information that would have likely gone undiscovered by you guys were it not for this whole debacle. And this is just the beginning; there is likely even more we don't know and will come to learn about items with further study. After what's come to light in the past few days, I can't see how anyone can seriously argue against the Evo rule set on the basis that we supposedly know all there is to know about items.
 

whut?

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Why was the old thread closed down, anyway? (No mod actually gave a reason for closing it (like, in a post), it just randomly closed... feel free to close this one, but please motivate why so we're not left wondering wth just happened)

So, MrWizard has made it clear that he's gonna "stick with his guns". In other words, Final Smashes, Items and the stages he hasn't banned will most likely stay ON.
(carefully reads wall of text)
yes yes, very interesting, good..........................................but where are the kittenz?
 

SamuraiPanda

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Seriously. Look at all the previously-unknown information that's been discovered within mere days of Evo announcing its ruleset, information that would have likely gone undiscovered by you guys were it not for this whole debacle. And this is just the beginning; there is likely even more we don't know and will come to learn about items with further study. After what's come to light in the past few days, I can't see how anyone can seriously argue against the Evo rule set on the basis that we supposedly know all there is to know about items.
Thats not the argument. The argument is that items-on Brawl is a completely different game from items-off Brawl.

You know what? I'm not gonna type it up again, just read it here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5125120&postcount=126

And then there is always this in addition to what I posted above: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5125324&postcount=150
 

Yuna

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Seriously. Look at all the previously-unknown information that's been discovered within mere days of Evo announcing its ruleset, information that would have likely gone undiscovered by you guys were it not for this whole debacle. And this is just the beginning; there is likely even more we don't know and will come to learn about items with further study. After what's come to light in the past few days, I can't see how anyone can seriously argue against the Evo rule set on the basis that we supposedly know all there is to know about items.
Nobody ever said that.

Also, if this is what we've discovered in only days of testing, what the hell was EVO doing for months of testing?!
 

SynikaL

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Thats not the argument. The argument is that items-on Brawl is a completely different game from items-off Brawl.
I'm not even sure you know what "argument" you think to be addressing here -- it's as if you opened with those phrases simply because they sounded initially weighty in your mind and gave them no further thought.

This is a diversion.

We're not splitting hairs here; the differences are profound enough, as such, there isn't a soul involved that does not recognize this isn't really about affirming that distinction.

So this brings us back to treaded territories, affectively making this post more than a diversion, but also a reversion.

I think it has been made clear to you and just about everyone that EVO is obviously not looking to cater to the core competitive Smash community. If the interests were symmetrical, there obviously would be no argument (or at the very least, the discrepancies would not be so multiple, vast and chasmic). It is natural to feel slighted by this, and Wizard affirms the decisions to be final.

So, again, what's the most logical and ponderous decision to make? If the rules bother you, don't attend EVO.

Seeing as how that particular bush is barren for a lot of you, I don't understand why you can't find at least some merit in this topic's current direction: the Smash community's first real full scale analyzation of Brawl's Item Spawn system and its competitive possibilities.

At the very least, you could use that subsequent knowledge to prove to SRK/Wizard how right you all were all along, since in the face of this new game's potential, that seems to be what's ultimately important to you.

Yuna:

I may be hard pressed to find explicit statements (I doubt it), but this entire uproar is based off the idea that we feel we know Brawl best, simply because we put the time and money into Melee. The only real inference to draw from that, is that we claim intellectual authority regarding Brawl and Items in a competitive environment.

That, and our community is unwittingly (wittingly?) holding our potential knowledge and experiences with Brawl back, due to convention (SRK's inference vs. ours).


-Syn
 

iankobe

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I'm not even sure you know what "argument" you think to be addressing here -- it's as if you opened with those phrases simply because they sounded initially weighty in your mind and gave them no further thought.

This is a diversion.

We're not splitting hairs here; the differences are profound enough, as such, there isn't a soul involved that does not recognize this isn't really about affirming that distinction.

So this brings us back to treaded territories, affectively making this post more than a diversion, but also a reversion.

I think it has been made clear to you and just about everyone that EVO is obviously not looking to cater to the core competitive Smash community. If the interests were symmetrical, there obviously would be no argument (or at the very least, the discrepancies would not be so multiple, vast and chasmic). It is natural to feel slighted by this, and Wizard affirms the decisions to be final.

So, again, what's the most logical and ponderous decision to make? If the rules bother you, don't attend EVO.

Seeing as how that particular bush is barren for a lot of you, I don't understand why you can't find at least some merit in this topic's current direction: the Smash community's first real full scale analyzation of Brawl's Item Spawn system and its competitive possibilities.

At the very least, you could use that subsequent knowledge to prove to SRK/Wizard how right you all were all along, since in the face of this new game's potential, that seems to be what's ultimately important to you.

Yuna:

I may be hard pressed to find explicit statements (I doubt it), but this entire uproar is based off the idea that we feel we know Brawl best, simply because we put the time and money into Melee. The only real inference to draw from that, is that we claim intellectual authority regarding Brawl and Items in a competitive environment.

That, and our community is unwittingly (wittingly?) holding our potential knowledge and experiences with Brawl back, due to convention (SRK's inference vs. ours).


-Syn
...That's why we're here to discuss this BS. How unfair this is. How foolish this is.

And perhaps a way to change their mind.
 

Samochan

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From the aim log, he simply stated:

"No matter how many valid points you make"

<_< To me that implies he won't listen no matter how many foolproof arguments we present him, because he's stubborn and wants to remain in control of the ordeal, he has too much pride to back down now and listen our voices of reason.

And he has proven all this by acting like he does, not listening. The other members on SRK also support smash balls and some many of the broken items. Smash balls are there to stay on.

But I guess this gives the evo attenders a good reason to start practicing as wolf/falco lol. Or any char with all around good qualities for both camping and final smash.
 

TheKiest

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Intro response

Well I'm first going to explain who I am. A "casual" gamer who has played in decent sized Smash Tournes (Justin Wong even played in this one: Season Beatings at Columbus Ohio) and a "pro" gamer for Tekken.

I also just recently ran a Brawl Tournament that had the "melee" style rule set and a "casual" FFA rule set that helped to prevent camping/ganging up on people.

At: http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=564

This tourne had Overswarm winning the "melee" one and came in 5th for the "casual" one. The group of people I normally play with placed in the top 4. (Because we are use to doing FFAs with all items/stages due to having lots of people wanted to play and want items on, Rotation Mode for the win!)

If that doesn't confirm my credibility, then ignore my posts.

I'll divide my "response" to this thread into 4 posts so that it'll be easier to read.
With a 5th post to reply to the responses of these four things.
This one will focus on the posted links. (The three that I thought needs addressing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo (Real Men Use Items)

I will admit the Star Rod spawn was complete luck (at 0:15) and Marth could have been thrown into the Mine anyway.

But the other things could have avoided.

The Mine can be detonated as Marth and Roy (Ike, Peach, Squirtle and Wario [not 100% sure] in Brawl as well) without taking damage. (Short hop to D-B onto it, its hard to do but so is comboing with Wavedashing). You prolly could have Wavedashed to Shield into it as well. This should have been done once Marth realized that he trapped himself.

The Star Rod throw could have easily (easy for the skilled) been dodged:
Marth had time to fast fall to do an Up-B, air dodge or do a well timed D-B instead of doing a f-a (or whatever that was, I don't know my Marth too well. Maybe he was trying to catch the rod and misread his opponent)

Point is, it wasn't pure bull and could have been avoided if the player had more experience with the items. He had plenty of time to do different things and probably knows what to do next time.

Also the Marth player took a risk for attacking the crate, that could have exploded. But that is the whole risk with capsules and crates anyway. If you want to risk getting more items at one point, then be aware of how it can back fire before doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VBTJe-nXyY

That was a nice item combo at 3:35. The hot head is like a pokeball, who ever launches the item is the owner (so reflected items are then owned by the person who did the reflecting). Definitely applies to Hot-Heads and pokeballs.
The items also get a big damage boast when reflected: Pit's forward B adds even more damage because the hothead is being hit by the F-B afterwards but has that "Reflect"property still (glitch) thus breaking the shield and killing the guy instantly when he used the Shield.

Regardless, the player who was winning before getting screwed still won the game because he was an overall better player. The player also wouldn't have gone for the reflect if he knew that it wouldn't happen.

So if people can spend hours training for a no-items tourne, then why not an all-items on also? (My view of Item fairness will be explain in another post)
They could discover all sorts of fun tricks/glitches.
After all that is how Wavedashing was discovered (Please correct me if I'm wrong on that)

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=10999 (The Aim thingy)
Mr. Wizard definitly seems like a jerk at first, but when you stop and think about it... how many times in the past has some guy talk to him on AIM/Email about running a tournament/ coming up with a rule set that had no idea what they were talking about? (Say for instance, the ruleset suggested was ALL Items, Space animals banned, Kongo Falls only or the eviavelent to the other games). Evo is very large and they need to be firm in their desicions. They can't let other change their minds about something once the event is being planned.

Also people should give more credit to Evo. Without big events like Evo, we wouldn't have a strong community we do now where we can take a party game like Smash Bros. and refine the crap out of it to create a decent fighter while having the world agree on it. It's absolutely amazing! Evo has allowed players to meet from everywhere for many games and the community grows and learns from it. They know what they are doing.

New games usually have a hard time getting into Evo because of the same problem this game is having: People can't agree on a rule set. (Happened with Tekken 5: DR and Soul Caliber 3 as I recall) This takes time and it will be done correctly. (Brawl isn't going anywhere and another one won't be out for a decade)

However, Mr. Wizard could have been a little more friendly and at least sent an email later addressing those points (or have a stooge do the emails, he prolly has some by now)

So to summarize:
1) If you don't think I have credit/proof, don't address these things. I'll still post my other 4.
2) There are many ways around/planning with items
3) Evo has been successful with other games in its gatherings but it took time to get there. Give them time to deal with a new game.

Also, Dedede and Peach can pull out Bomb-ombs and capsules with items turned off AND item rate on None. (Though no items will come out of the capsule, not sure if the capsule could be an explosive)

And Diddy's Bananas are just as much everyone elses than it is for him! (Sorry, I didn't want to look through 10 pages to find the exact quote: Someone said the bananas is an unique advantage to Diddy that no one else should have access to). Learn to catch items! (Yes you can catch peanuts also, other Dededes can indirectly catch waddle dees and Doos with timed forward Bs) And learn your reflecting moves (Ness/Lucas's Bat/Stick, Robs F-B etc, Ike and Marths Counter[Well doesn't reflect but you wont get hit by the item either] and super armor moves)

Finally: I don't mean to insult people when I say "Skill is required to do this" when players failed to do something. Skill is being able to apply what you know in a game. If you don't know something, then how can you skillfully do it?
And if I post anything that was said before or any info people might know about, that stuff is more for people who didn't have the patience to read everything to now and for people who might not know anything about Item Warfare.
My opinion on what "side" I'm on will come in post 4.

Next time: Items

Sorry for the read
TheKiest
 

Ryuker

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Okay, imagine your on FD, your standing near on edge, and your opponent is on the other. Neither of you are taking any action.

The game takes this info, and develops "Spawn Points", based on where you stand. If you stand in the same spot long enough, you'll notice there is about ~12 spots that items will drop. However, amongst these 12 points, they are 7-9 points that are about a dash animation or two from a player, while on 1-3 are outside of that range.

Visually, its like this:
S = Spawn Point
C= Character
M= Middle or Mirror Point of the level

SSCSS__S__________S____S_S_M

You'll notice that most of those "Spawn Points" surround the player. The rest are biased toward the middle. Thus, even if the game randomly selects the "Spawn Point", items will most likely land near the player because the spawn points themselves are focused near the player.

My theory is that the "Spawn Points" are calculated based on character positions, but the actual "Spawn Point" that the game itself chooses is random. Does that make sense?
I do not know if this has been posted yet ( haven't had the time too read the entire thread but I suspect system isn't much different from melee. In melee you can see the spawn points of the items using the debug mode and they are always in the same postion yet the game sorts through which point they spawn from. ( there also ordered in a pattern but I can't remember which) It could be so that this is based on the postion of the player and the distance is calculated between the player and the nearest spawn points ( I'm not a programmer so i have no clue how they program it but I do know that it's just a matter of identifying the area a player and the spawn points are in.).

I find it hard to imagine that the spawn points move with the players since you have a total amount of 4 on the screen and I can't image that they make them follow just the 1st player for example. If the spawn points were to follow the player I think they would have to have like 3 per player that would follow that player but that means you get overlapping spawn points and I think it's inlikely they did that. What could be the case is that the spawn points change ther distance from each other ( like a box scaled up ) when the camera zooms out and the players distance relative to each other increases. The pattern of the spawn points wouldn't change then. Know that i think about it, it might actually be influenced by the camera canvas.
 

Yuna

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I'm sorry, you held an FFA-tournament and based findings on that? FFA?! What stopped people from just ganging up on Overswarm (which I'm sure they probably did) just beat him out of the bracket due to nothing but unfair teamwork?

You just said a whole bunch of things (I stopped reading half-way through and started skimming) that generally amount to:
"It doesn't happen that much. I can accept it happening."

Yeah, well, we don't agree. And that's where we stand.

The fact that you even compare Peach, DeDeDe and Didy Kong to items is ludicrous. At least with Peach and DDD, you have some credibility as their Down Bs are slightly random. But they were programmed like that. They're supposed to have those as parts of their movesets, they don't have to go through lucky random spawns from outside of their or the opponents' control to utilize their items.

They also aren't broken enough to warrant a ban. Even though Peach was Top 5 in Melee, the fact that she could pull out all sorts of nasty things didn't make her magically win entire tournaments. She didn't become way too good (Final Smashes for example) due to a random Down B pull.

Diddy Kong just wields banana peels. There's nothing random about that. It's always a banana peel. Why whine about them? Because they're also available as an item? Diddy Kong having banana peels is nothing stranger than Link wielding bombs. Every time Diddy pulls out a banana peel, it's always the exact same kind of banana peel, the same goes with Links bombs.

Let's ignore the exploding container-part for now since we can turn those off in Brawl, it doesn't change the fact that even if I control the stage 75% of the match, nothing's stopping the game from having smoke balls spawn next to me every time I'm in control of the stage and Smash Balls and Golden Hammers (that don't backfire) whenever my opponent is in control (15% of the time).

It doesn't prevent items from spawning right on top of me while I'm being comboed, thus prolonging the combo. It doesn't prevent items from spawning right into my opponent's hands (literally) as you can now grab them while performing aerials, setting up for deadly combos (Marth's Fair into a Golden Hammer? Yes please!). It doesn't prevent items from spawning in my hands when I don't want them to, screwing up my combos or quite possibly kill me (Normal Hammer while I'm in the air and too far off to Air Control back on stage? No thanks).
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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From the aim log, he simply stated:

"No matter how many valid points you make"

<_< To me that implies he won't listen no matter how many foolproof arguments we present him, because he's stubborn and wants to remain in control of the ordeal, he has too much pride to back down now and listen our voices of reason.
I love how some people will grasp at straws instead of look at the obviousness of the statement. Have you ever heard of sarcasm? The point he was making here was that dmbrandon's "valid points" did not seem valid to Wiz. Take a step back when you read it.

I agree that Wiz went a bit harsh on dmb during the conversation, but someone else already made the point that this most likely wasn't his first, nor will it be his last, random (to him) person that came to him insisting their way was the right way. Not to mention dmb got heated with him long before that.
 

itsameSMB

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Ignore if you aren't reading for the item spawn information

Sorry to go off-topic, but regarding the spawn points:

What good will it do us if we know the spawn points if we don't know how the game picks them? I mean, I know it's not exactly predetermined, but it's not exactly as if every player has an equal chance of an item appearing by them. Another thing: I don't think that these spawn points are as relative as you may think. Let's think about battlefield for a second. Items on high and only pokeballs. It may seem relative to the players when they are all on the stage, since they are so close. However, let's say P1 got a kyogre and P2 got a staryu and both players are knocked off the stage, but not knocked out. While both of them are near the edge the screen boundry, the game generates an item. Where does it choose to drop it? It wouldn't drop it by the players, since that would mean it would drop to the ground. The answer is it could drop anywhere. This could only mean one of two things: either the possible spawn points are absolute and and are only active when players are in the vicinity or the item spawns, as crazy as it may seem, are independant from the characters' positions. You also are not mentionioning the vertical axis in your post, when item spawns are clearly not one dimensional. Sorry FishkeeperTimmay!, I'm not trying to discredit you, but someone has to play the devil's advocate.
 

Samochan

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Aww maan Yuna, you didn't address the part where he told the bs on "Real men use items" could have and should have been avoided. :<

Oh well, I do it myself then.

To put it bluntly, if it were a frame by frame controlled, such thing could have been easily avoided yes. But human mind takes a bit of time to process information and channel it down to your hands which then do the work. The Marth player just reacted to the sheik grab before he got grabbed but was too late, he was expecting either an aerial or ground attacks which he could have shieldgrabbed and thrown sheik into the mine himself. And while he got grabbed, he still wouldn't have been thrown into the mine, but due to incredibly lucky item spawn on sheik's part, the capsule dropped right after sheik threw marth, messing the trajectory completely and throwing him to the mine. What was more, the sheik got a hand on a really good throwable item that travels far when thrown and with just the right trajectory, instead of something that doesn't have such trajectory or good enough knockback to kill marth. The propability for all this happening is extremely low and it's a miracle in itself that it all went seemingly flawlessly for sheik's favor. If the capsule had dropped even 0.1 seconds earlier, it would not have affected his trajectory in any way or if there was another item spawning from the capsule, sheik might not have been able to throw it and kill marth with it.

Marth player simply did not even have time to react to the thrown item since he was performing the action of forward b to recover at the same time as sheik threw the item. Marth player was barely comprehending the fact that he was suddenly sent flying someplace else due to lucky capsule spawn, more or less he did see he was sent off stage and wanted to stop his movement with forward b. It all happens in a span of 3 seconds and the star rod flying to it's target is less than half of a second. If it were predicted, it could have been shielded yes, but marth was in such a position that he could not have simply shielded it due to being airborne and you cannot foresee random item spawns. Less than half of a second is not much time to react to the unpredictable. It's like saying your opponent can see all the stitchface pulls you might get, or even bo-ombs or other items. It just doesn't happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5brbBJRwYjk

Marth did not expect this to happen.

I love how some people will grasp at straws instead of look at the obviousness of the statement. Have you ever heard of sarcasm? The point he was making here was that dmbrandon's "valid points" did not seem valid to Wiz. Take a step back when you read it.

I agree that Wiz went a bit harsh on dmb during the conversation, but someone else already made the point that this most likely wasn't his first, nor will it be his last, random (to him) person that came to him insisting their way was the right way. Not to mention dmb got heated with him long before that.
It does not take away the fact that Wiz does not listen to any smashboard members, even if that one is Pc Chris himself. Also when we try to provide solid proof for our findings, the thread simply get locked. I see no reason to defend Wiz for being both ignorant and stubborn. Or SRK either, I read enough of the debate there to see all no-items arguments (or any other argument and post for that matter) brushed aside and members such as Buzz banned for posting perfectly reasonable posts while COUM is still posting useless, insulting and idiotic posts over the boards. To me it all tells a lot about how things are handled there.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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members such as Buzz banned for posting perfectly reasonable posts
TheBuzzSaw said:
I'm just curious; how many people would NOT attend if items were disabled? I've already counted several dozen who are not attending because they're enabled.
TheBuzzSaw said:
I'll ask again: who would NOT attend if items were disabled? So far, I know of dozens of people who refuse to attend since items are ENABLED.
TheBuzzSaw said:
I hope EVO hosts WarioWare too.
TheBuzzSaw said:
Why isn't Mario Party part of EVO's lineup?
Now... call me crazy here, but where is the reason here? Sounds like he gave up reasonably arguing from his older posts and degenerated to trolling. This is after, and see if you can follow me, he posted several "arguments" that went over in the prior thread several times over, and refuted as such in the same thread. He wasn't contributing anything new and was ignored. Then he started trolling. That is why he was banned.

As far as COUM is concerned, his posts may be harsh, but so are AlphaZealot's, and he has yet to be banned, because while the posts may be loud and obnoxious, they're still debating. Not to mention that both of them have calmed down since in the counterpicking thread.
 

Samochan

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Now... call me crazy here, but where is the reason here? Sounds like he gave up reasonably arguing from his older posts and degenerated to trolling. This is after, and see if you can follow me, he posted several "arguments" that went over in the prior thread several times over, and refuted as such in the same thread. He wasn't contributing anything new and was ignored. Then he started trolling. That is why he was banned.

As far as COUM is concerned, his posts may be harsh, but so are AlphaZealot's, and he has yet to be banned, because while the posts may be loud and obnoxious, they're still debating. Not to mention that both of them have calmed down since in the counterpicking thread.
I'm sorry, the above examples are worth a ban instead of this for example?

you are stupid as ****
His posts contribute the least to the whole thread, possibly whole SRK itself.

Buzz posts like this: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=5128553&postcount=442
At least till he got wiser and noticed he just got ignored, no matter how nicely and wisely he typed his post. So he ended up mocking a bit and refering item-on brawl as good competition as mario party is. That in no way constitutes as a ban.

And Alpha's posts are as tame as Kirby is. >_>
 

Yuna

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I agree that Wiz went a bit harsh on dmb during the conversation, but someone else already made the point that this most likely wasn't his first, nor will it be his last, random (to him) person that came to him insisting their way was the right way. Not to mention dmb got heated with him long before that.
All DMB did was say "I want to discuss and show you a few things that might change your mind. MrWizard just didn't want to listen.

As far as COUM is concerned, his posts may be harsh, but so are AlphaZealot's, and he has yet to be banned, because while the posts may be loud and obnoxious, they're still debating. Not to mention that both of them have calmed down since in the counterpicking thread.
I'm sorry what part of the following facts are too Greek, Catalan, Serbian and Norwegian for you to understand?
1) The Original Post, written by MrWizard himself, a Supermod, states "Un-civil arguing will result in a ban (no warnings given)".
2) COUM posted a post comparing Brawl to Magic the Gathering. I said "They are not the same thing. Brawl is a fighting game and MTG is a strategic card fighter game or whatever it's classified as.", COUM's response to this was "You are stupid as (F-word)" (a word not censored by SRK so I knew what word he used). This, despite the fact that I was perfectly civil and calm to him.
3) I wrote not one but two PMs to MrWizard reporting the post since SRK lacks a Report-the-post-function. I know for a fact that these messages have been read because when I go into "Sent messages", they aren't bold.
4) COUM remains unbanned.

It's pretty hard to find someone who thinks saying "You are stupid as (F-word)" is being civil. According to a long-time member of SRK, COUM is one of the most hated people on SRK, so it's not like the mods favour him. What it looks like is that MrWizard doesn't like me because I was too harsh on items and therefore chooses to spite me by not banning COUM, circumventing his own rules.

There's also another possible scenario: MrWizard still dislikes me for my posting and simply deleted by PMs without reading them, thus ensuring they wouldn't remain bold (I think they stop being bold if they're deleted), yet not caring what I had to say.

No replies to my PMs have been received. No ban has been issued to COUM. Both scenarios suggest MrWizard is a less than honourable person.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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After even more testing, I'm almost 100% certain that items move with players. The game tries to put them in players hands. The percent of items that are in completely arbitrary locations is far too low. Items are either spawning really close to players or evenly between them. Of course, this MAKES SENSE. Afterall, it actually makes item spawns a lot more predictable and keeps spawns from favoring one player through chance.

However, the main issue that remain isn't in spawn point. Though I am convinced that experienced item players will learn where items start to land, they still have absolutely no control on WHICH items spawn. The item that is dropped at the spawn point is still randomized. Thus, the items still have the potential to be unfair as long as the ruleset has more than one item available. When you factor that EVO has some items that are obviously stronger than others (golden hammer versus regular is the most obvious and comparable), this is an issue that even the most scientific and logical person can not ignore.

On that note, the greatest task ahead for EVO will be deciding which items are too good to keep in the ruleset. For the pure sake of fairness, the items have to be all on the same relative level of power, which is currently not the case. Golden Hammers are obviously better than most, if not all the items on that ruleset, and Smashballs are not all equally powerful; the spacies can take 2 stocks, while Zero Suit Samus may have difficultly even getting a decent amount of damage with hers.

Still, I am very open to this new item tournament. As far as I see it, its a parallel tournament ruleset, much like many Trading Card Games have many parallel rulesets. I believe EVO should explore this venue with as much vigor as possible, if anything they are expanding the community. They may also stumble on things that non-item gamers just won't find. Like many others have said, if you don't like the rules, don't play at that venue. >.>
 

Yuna

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SRK isn't using EVO as a random experiment though. While I disagree with them using EVO as an experiment, since it's so big and a lot of money is at stake, that's not the biggest problem here.

The biggest problem is that they claim to have done "extensive testing" (read: Two months of a few online tournaments with no prizes of any kind) and have "proven" items to not be broken. Then when we come with our proof, they dismiss them entirely without even being able to give us valid reasons. Their only arguments are "Stage control" and "Give us video evidence... of Ken and Isai". All of this while claiming to be "open for suggestions".

That's a lot of hypocrisy and lies.
 

SynikaL

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However, the main issue that remain isn't in spawn point. Though I am convinced that experienced item players will learn where items start to land, they still have absolutely no control on WHICH items spawn. The item that is dropped at the spawn point is still randomized. Thus, the items still have the potential to be unfair as long as the ruleset has more than one item available. When you factor that EVO has some items that are obviously stronger than others (golden hammer versus regular is the most obvious and comparable), this is an issue that even the most scientific and logical person can not ignore.

[/B]
This can be remedied through refinement of the metagame as well (observing which Items are truly proving overpowered etc.). I think people generally wouldn't have as much problem with the idea of Items themselves being random, because if players can somewhat predict where Item containers will land and work to control that; I believe the subsequent Item achievement can be seen as a natural reward for hard work.

And remember, some Items are just ****ty.


-Kye
 

Yuna

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This can be remedied through refinement of the metagame as well (observing which Items are truly proving overpowered etc.). I think people generally wouldn't have as much problem with the idea of Items themselves being random, because if players can somewhat predict where Item containers will land and work to control that; I believe the subsequent Item achievement can be seen as a natural reward for hard work.

And remember, some Items are just ****ty.


-Kye
You can never predict unpredictability. Items are random, they are, hence, inherently predictable. Even if they do spawn near players more than not, you can never predict which item will spawn at which spot closest to you. Simply moving in one direction might prove fatal if a really good item spawns at that other spot, much closer to your opponent.

No matter how much Stage Control you have, even if you control the stage for a majority of a match, nothing's stopping only ****ty items to spawn while you're in control and golden hammers only while your opponent is.

Nothing is going to stop a golden hammer to spawn into Marth's hands right at the start of his Nair, effectively comboing his Nair into a Golden Hammer hit, killing you. You can't dodge it because there's no directional airdodging anymore and the hitbox is out for too long so even if you airdodge it, you're dead. Some characters can 2nd jump out of it... if they aren't slow or Peach... but that doesn't really help much when the Golden Hammer lasts for a veeeery long time and you'll have to come back onto the stage sometime.
 

FishkeeperTimmay!

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SRK isn't using EVO as a random experiment though. While I disagree with them using EVO as an experiment, since it's so big and a lot of money is at stake, that's not the biggest problem here.

The biggest problem is that they claim to have done "extensive testing" (read: Two months of a few online tournaments with no prizes of any kind) and have "proven" items to not be broken. Then when we come with our proof, they dismiss them entirely without even being able to give us valid reasons. Their only arguments are "Stage control" and "Give us video evidence... of Ken and Isai". All of this while claiming to be "open for suggestions".

That's a lot of hypocrisy and lies.

I understand this frustration, but if there is anything I've learned from tutoring people for the greater part of 5 years, is that changing peoples mindset is impossible. This sounds incredibly dumb, but hear me out on this one.

If the SRK has a mental block against the SWF and the stance on no-items, we can't break it using SWF logic. The only way they are going to figure it out is through their own mindset. Oterwise, the mental block comes up. Thus, the only way that they are going to learn how broken (or unbroken, which it turns out to be) item are, is through their own testing methods. Its the way they learn, even if it seems illogical to you, it makes perfect sense to them. The BEST thing we can do is either:

A) Ignore EVO, and let them evolve the way they want to. They don't control the entire Smash Scene afterall.

B) Offer support, and present evidence in a way that they understand. This seems to be the part that we don't understand. We still aren't sure what they are looking for. This frustrates me as well.

Does that make sense? It seem extremely illogical to some, but from a teachers point of view, it makes sense. Ask me to clarify if I'm not making sense. xD




This can be remedied through refinement of the metagame as well (observing which Items are truly proving overpowered etc.). I think people generally wouldn't have as much problem with the idea of Items themselves being random, because if players can somewhat predict where Item containers will land and work to control that; I believe the subsequent Item achievement can be seen as a natural reward for hard work.

And remember, some Items are just ****ty.


-Kye

I agree completely, I do believe items CAN be competitive, so long as the items in the rule set don't have a huge gap in power, and the spawn points can be figured out. Thus, why I gave certain suggestions and hope EVO the best of luck in its experimentation.

Of course, EVO could prove to horrible disaster (and likely will be if Smashballs and Golden Hammers are still in). Either way, however, EVO will be an interesting tournament.
 

EnigmaticCam

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo (Real Men Use Items)

I will admit the Star Rod spawn was complete luck (at 0:15) and Marth could have been thrown into the Mine anyway.

But the other things could have avoided.

The Mine can be detonated as Marth and Roy (Ike, Peach, Squirtle and Wario [not 100% sure] in Brawl as well) without taking damage. (Short hop to D-B onto it, its hard to do but so is comboing with Wavedashing). You prolly could have Wavedashed to Shield into it as well. This should have been done once Marth realized that he trapped himself.

The Star Rod throw could have easily (easy for the skilled) been dodged:
Marth had time to fast fall to do an Up-B, air dodge or do a well timed D-B instead of doing a f-a (or whatever that was, I don't know my Marth too well. Maybe he was trying to catch the rod and misread his opponent)
All completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter what could've happened. As soon as you start arguing about what someone should've done, the whole purpose of tournament vids as proof is defeated.

The only thing that matters is what did happen.

As far as COUM is concerned, his posts may be harsh, but so are AlphaZealot's, and he has yet to be banned, because while the posts may be loud and obnoxious, they're still debating. Not to mention that both of them have calmed down since in the counterpicking thread.
I'm sorry. wat? Did you just say AZ's posts are harsh? This tells me you don't read any of his posts.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Boynton Beach, FL
You can never predict unpredictability. Items are random, they are, hence, inherently predictable. Even if they do spawn near players more than not, you can never predict which item will spawn at which spot closest to you. Simply moving in one direction might prove fatal if a really good item spawns at that other spot, much closer to your opponent.

No matter how much Stage Control you have, even if you control the stage for a majority of a match, nothing's stopping only ****ty items to spawn while you're in control and golden hammers only while your opponent is.
You're obviously not following the current developments, nor are you comprehending my posts. Stop skimming posts, or I'm going to ignore your tirades more than I typically do.

We're attempting to figure out the Spawn system with the sole hope that we can use the knowledge gained to make it less unpredictable (maybe even completely predictable). I've already explained why I felt the effects of the Items Containers themselves being random is relatively negligible in my last post.


-Syn
 

Rebel581

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 20, 2004
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Location
College Park, MD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo (Real Men Use Items)

I will admit the Star Rod spawn was complete luck (at 0:15) and Marth could have been thrown into the Mine anyway.

But the other things could have avoided.

The Mine can be detonated as Marth and Roy (Ike, Peach, Squirtle and Wario [not 100% sure] in Brawl as well) without taking damage. (Short hop to D-B onto it, its hard to do but so is comboing with Wavedashing). You prolly could have Wavedashed to Shield into it as well. This should have been done once Marth realized that he trapped himself.

The Star Rod throw could have easily (easy for the skilled) been dodged:
Marth had time to fast fall to do an Up-B, air dodge or do a well timed D-B instead of doing a f-a (or whatever that was, I don't know my Marth too well. Maybe he was trying to catch the rod and misread his opponent)
Marth could not have been thrown into the mine. Sheik's fthrow, and in fact, no forward throws work in that way. They've all been designed obviously so that you can't throw someone into a mine, as you get your jump back, and the hitstun isn't long enough to let you hit the ground. Throughout my entire time of playing with items, I have never been thrown into a landmine because I just jump out of whatever throw is trying to put me there. Or I tech it. That capsule is the only reason he got hit into the landmine.

Point is, it wasn't pure bull and could have been avoided if the player had more experience with the items. He had plenty of time to do different things and probably knows what to do next time.

Also the Marth player took a risk for attacking the crate, that could have exploded. But that is the whole risk with capsules and crates anyway. If you want to risk getting more items at one point, then be aware of how it can back fire before doing it.
This is equivalent to giving a cookie whenever someone answers a question right. And randomly chucking an eraser at their head when they get a question right. It's a terrible idea in terms of psychology, as it just annoys people. In Melee, the only way to really open boxes was to hit them. Throwing them was a horrible idea for how long it took. Projectiles took too long to break them. Are you going to say Marth can't get any items from crates reliably and safely? I believe that's a pretty big ht to him as a character, as while projectiles may be ineffective, they are the most reliable way to break a crate with your life still intact. This doesn't exist in Brawl though, and should not be an issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VBTJe-nXyY

That was a nice item combo at 3:35. The hot head is like a pokeball, who ever launches the item is the owner (so reflected items are then owned by the person who did the reflecting). Definitely applies to Hot-Heads and pokeballs.
The items also get a big damage boast when reflected: Pit's forward B adds even more damage because the hothead is being hit by the F-B afterwards but has that "Reflect"property still (glitch) thus breaking the shield and killing the guy instantly when he used the Shield.
Items should never one hit kill by taking off an entire stock. The hothead just distracts from the two fighting each other into a camp until the hothead is gone.

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=10999 (The Aim thingy)
Mr. Wizard definitly seems like a jerk at first, but when you stop and think about it... how many times in the past has some guy talk to him on AIM/Email about running a tournament/ coming up with a rule set that had no idea what they were talking about? (Say for instance, the ruleset suggested was ALL Items, Space animals banned, Kongo Falls only or the eviavelent to the other games). Evo is very large and they need to be firm in their desicions. They can't let other change their minds about something once the event is being planned.
He is a jerk. It doesn't matter how many people have IMed him. The guy gave his credentials and gave a website showing them. That's like showing up to work with your resume that says, "I have 5 years of work experience" and the guy asking, "How can I ensure that you have work experience?" The reason he's firm in his decisions is a question to me, as I would want to host the most successful tournament I could. I would remain firm if I didn't have tons of evidence showing why something is banned (and in fact, is the only reason why Skyworld has not received a ban yet). And to those who say he has not received tons of evidence or any at all, we have tried using theory, video proof (some of their own tournament), and general past experience with items. Just because evidence is ignored, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also people should give more credit to Evo. Without big events like Evo, we wouldn't have a strong community we do now where we can take a party game like Smash Bros. and refine the crap out of it to create a decent fighter while having the world agree on it. It's absolutely amazing! Evo has allowed players to meet from everywhere for many games and the community grows and learns from it. They know what they are doing.
Know your smash history. The smash scene grew and thrived on its own. Smash is not part of EVO really and that's where this controversy stems from in reality. We survived without EVO and MLG picked up smash after seeing what we were doing with Melee. As much as I'd love for an organization to pick us up, it isn't required. Getting taken out of EVO is by no means anywhere close to the death sentence that it feels like to Guilty Gear fans.
 
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