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The EVO-ruleset (continued...)

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Yuna

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Why was the old thread closed down, anyway? (No mod actually gave a reason for closing it (like, in a post), it just randomly closed... feel free to close this one, but please motivate why so we're not left wondering wth just happened)

So, MrWizard has made it clear that he's gonna "stick with his guns". In other words, Final Smashes, Items and the stages he hasn't banned will most likely stay ON.

After categorically refusing to address any of the points brought up by me, SamuraiPanda, AlphaZealot or anyone else on "our" side, he closed the thread with this:
"This thread has turned into a shouting match between two websites that should have no beef with each other. I asked for rule debate with backup of proof, and almost no one has done that.

As far as people that state that we never officially asked SWF to do testing. Last I checked the official site of Evo is www.evo2k.com or www.shoryuken.com. If you expect official discussion my guess would be one of those sites. I'm also 100% sure that if something was posted on SRK in regards to a Brawl tournament, it was relayed to SWF in some capacity. Smash players aren't stupid, but if they chose to ignore a request, then that is their perogative.

We will continue to do research by talking with players over various items and stages, and if you wish to state your case with evidence that isnt just your own words, my PM box is always open, or you can email me at mrwizard [at] shoryuken dot com.

Thanks."


Apparently, to him and SRK, "proof" can only come in the form of video evidence (because it's so hard to use your imagination) and according to many of "those" people, proof can also only come in the form of tournament videos. According to yet others within that enclave, proof can only come in the form of tournament videos of really skilled Smashers (I'm guessing according to SRK-standard as SWF-standard RSSers (Really Skilled Smasher) would rather have sex with George W. Bush than play with items on).

OK then, so the only way for us to prove items are broken is to hold tournaments with items on and capturing moments where random item spawns screw matches up? Oh, but SRK has a reply to that too! Stage Control! If you Smash a player off-stage and a Smash Ball spawns next to you, that's Stage Control! If you're standing with your back to a part of the stage and the opponent is far away, that's Stage Control! Obviously, skilled players should somehow be able to control the entire stage at all times (the best way to do this is to constantly keep your opponent off stage) for Stage Control!

And Stage Control totally negates the fact that what if nothing good spawns during the 75% of the time of a match where I have Stage Control but a Dragoon and a Smash Ball spawn the 25% of the time when my opponent does? The answer is, um, "Luck evens out"... yeah, not.

So where was I? Yes, MrWizard is obviously biased and will not be taking our research to heart, even if it proves our points. Why?
1) His categoric refusal to address even any of our points even though we wrote entire essays and then he says "PM me with evidence if you want to continue this". And even if we do, he'll probably disqualify any evidence not accompanied with video proof of Ken and Azen going at it.
2) Then he claims SWF shouldn't gotten wind of what was going on at SRK because we're obviously psychic or have insiders with nothing better to do than to constantly lurk the Brawl forums and relay all shennanigans over there to us.
3) And the kicker: After my first 5 posts in the thread (my rep bar was still green for magical reasons beyond my comprehension), I was called an "f*ing idiot" for saying "This is this and that is that" about COUM claiming that Brawl is a lot like Magic the Gathering and since chance plays a role in MtG, so should it in Brawl. The rules in the OP of the thread states (clearly): "Arguing in this thread in a non-civil manner will get you a ban ( no warnings required.)". I personally PM:ed MrWizard about it, complete with a link to the post, to make sure he'd see it. What's happened (even though I know he's read the PM because it's no longer bold)? The idiot is still not banned (I did not call anyone an idiot in said thread nor did I ever flame or go past civility, because, you know, I actually read the OP and knew of the rule... which is apparently not being enforced).

So there you have it, apparently, if he agrees with someone, he won't even punish them for blatantly breaking thread- and forum policies and rules. Bias at its greatest. Even if we provided tons of proof, he'd probably wave it off, somehow, by saying "Well I disagree and so do my SRK-peers!".

The solution?
A) Ignore EVO, don't waste your time, money or effort (why travel, pay for hotel costs and entrance fees only to have a large chance of losing out due to "Stage Control").
B) Go.
C) Try to prove them wrong - Now proven useless since they apparently aren't willing to listen. SynikaL was right all along.

Rules of this thread:
This is not a thread to insult SRK or its members as a whole. I called COUM an idiot earlier, but even SRK thinks he's an idiot as someone described him as "one of our must hated members". And he did something idiotic. And I needed to illustrate a post.

This thread is here for us to discuss EVO's/SRK's/MrWizard's current rulesets and their probable future revisions. And possibly chronicle anyone's attempts at changing said rules (like, if you send him a PM, repost it here and repost his reply if it's relevant, like if you sent him something really good and he replied with "Meh" or something).

Yes, you can vent and complain and whatnot, just don't do it in a manner that would breach any forum rules.

Why do these rules even exist? To prevent the mods from shutting down the thread for being a useless thread with no merit.
 

rob1out

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I don't think the two stock 3 minute timer is so bad. The better player should still win. Items are just... ridiculous. but anyways, were you planning on heading to evo from sweden or something? Because otherwise, the ruleset wouldn't affect you. haha
 

Yuna

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I don't think the two stock 3 minute timer is so bad. The better player should still win. Items are just... ridiculous. but anyways, were you planning on heading to evo from sweden or something? Because otherwise, the ruleset wouldn't affect you. haha
The rules have changed, it's 3 stocks, 5 minutes now. The biggest problem isn't that with less rounds (stocks), you might lose when you would've won had there been more "rounds", it's that the timer is too low.

3 minutes for 2 stocks? Time will most definitely run out on a ton of matches. 3 stocks, 5 minutes? Time will probably will run on a lot of matches.

What difference does it make if I don't live in the U.S. or plan to EVO (I could've gone before, I won't now, though)? I support Smashboards and I wanted to correct what I felt was a wrong. EVO is a supposedly Competitively tournament aimed at Competitive fighting games. They've supposedly made this ruleset to ensure fair and Competitive play (according to themselves). Even the ISP here on SWF have banned FS:es in 1on1.
 

Axis

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Ive been reading both forums for a while, and play both Smash (my main game) and Third Strike / CvS2 and I have a lot of respect and love for SRK and SWF members and mods respectively, but I have no idea who Mr. Wizard is getting advice from on the smash rules. I understand any changes to stock or time limit because of logistics and although they would be a nuisance I would be able to deal with them; I run tournaments myself and I know that it isn't easy to get everything done in a timely manner and still let the players have fun doing it, but using items is just plain stupid.

Anyone who has played smash for a decent amount of time, even those who don't play competitively know that no items is the way the game is played, items were off in Melee at evo...why add them in now?

I actually hadn't heard of these rules until recently due to my hectic schedule, but its kinda funny i stumbled upon them tonight. I was discussing how myself and my friend would get to Vegas because we have really been wanting to go to evo, and now that Ive seen the rules, I'm very disappointed because if the items stay on I wont be going. I don't intend to make the previous statement sound like a threat or some sort of call to arms, but I will simply say that the game is less fun to play and to watch with items on, and I'm just not up to travel all that way to see a repeat of the Game Stop tournaments.

I really really really really hope that the items are turned off for the tournament, because I was really looking forward to going to evo this year...
 

Yuna

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Anyone who has played smash for a decent amount of time, even those who don't play competitively know that no items is the way the game is played, items were off in Melee at evo...why add them in now?
I hear it's because Melee was a last-minute addition to EVO 2007. They simply didn't have the time to do extensive testing (read: two months) to make up their own ruleset and therefore went with an SWF-based one.

Now they do. And apparently, after (two) months of extensive testing (the majority of which performed by biased item-lovers who think "Stage Control" is a valid argument), they'd determined that SWF is dead wrong and that Final Smashes will be really good for Competitive play.
 

Nobie

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If items are so terrible, then let it be proven with this year's tournament.

Do you think that just because this first Brawl tournament ever at EVO will have items that it will set a precedent for all potential future Brawl tournaments there? If items are indeed as ruinous to Brawl as everyone here claims them to to be, then they will definitely be gone by next tournament.

So let it go. Let it happen. See what happens.

People claim they provide evidence, but I've read the threads. The only thing people have really done is shout, "RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM!" and maybe after the 100th time people still don't realize this, but RANDOM does not necessarily mean "non-competitive" and it does not mean "broken."

Except you know what types of items will appear (a blender isn't going to drop from the sky), and you know how often they will appear. But never mind this. That isn't the point.

Maybe Mr. Wizard is stubborn but he SHOULD be. Think of him as someone who's never heard or played Smash Bros before, someone who operates under one rule: The only things that should go are the things that make a game unplayable. Not "played differently." Not "played not to your preference." This isn't a 5 year old you're trying to convince to buy something. "Trust us, we know what's best" doesn't really fly when the whole point was to basically undergo trial by fire unless things were proven beforehand.

He also has a history with experimenting with rulesets and untested games in the first place, so this isn't even out of line.

Something as significant as items SHOULD be tested in tournaments, and it's mind-boggling that people refuse to let it get off the ground at all. Why? Because if you're a competitive scene, you NEED to test things at tournaments, not just arrive at conclusions based off of conjecture derived from a prequel to a game. Remember when everyone found out that you could gimp tether recoveries just by edge-hogging? Remember when people complained that this RUINED OLIMAR? That went pretty far, didn't it?
 

Yuna

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If items are so terrible, then let it be proven with this year's tournament.
Why must it be proven, again? And why must everything be proven in tournaments, especially specific ones and not at, say, tournaments that came before it? What if we discovered a way for Xiaoyu to win against every single character every single time? Juggles that work from every single launcher against everyone, everywhere. A guaranteed 100%. It'd make her so broken you wouldn't be able to win as anyone but her. Must we allow this to happen at EVO first or can't we just ban her for being too good?

Do you think that just because this first Brawl tournament ever at EVO will have items that it will set a precedent for all potential future Brawl tournaments there? If items are indeed as ruinous to Brawl as everyone here claims them to to be, then they will definitely be gone by next tournament.
Why let it occur at all? It's a waste a major tournament which will probably have a large turnout. And a waste of good money if random **** decides the outcome (which it probably will).

So let it go. Let it happen. See what happens.
See above.

People claim they provide evidence, but I've read the threads. The only thing people have really done is shout, "RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM RANDOM!" and maybe after the 100th time people still don't realize this, but RANDOM does not necessarily mean "non-competitive" and it does not mean "broken."
Clearly you have not read my posts, which are about much more than just randomness.

Except you know what types of items will appear (a blender isn't going to drop from the sky), and you know how often they will appear. But never mind this. That isn't the point.
You don't know what will appear (1 out of 10+ items) when (exact second) and especially not where (a set number of spawn points but which spawn point is chosen as random).

Maybe Mr. Wizard is stubborn but he SHOULD be. Think of him as someone who's never heard or played Smash Bros before, someone who operates under one rule: The only things that should go are the things that make a game unplayable. Not "played differently." Not "played not to your preference." This isn't a 5 year old you're trying to convince to buy something. "Trust us, we know what's best" doesn't really fly when the whole point was to basically undergo trial by fire unless things were proven beforehand.
Why should he trust himself and the people at SRK when people with actually experience in the matter tells him not to? It's not about playing differently or just preference, it's about it being bad for Competitive play... especially Final Smashes.

That anyone can support Final Smashes in Competitive tournaments...

He also has a history with experimenting with rulesets and untested games in the first place, so this isn't even out of line.
"It's OK as long as you are consistent" - Tell that to the next serial killer.

Just because he does it all the time does not mean he's always right to do it... or that his findings are always correct (have it been like this in the past?).

Something as significant as items SHOULD be tested in tournaments, and it's mind-boggling that people refuse to let it get off the ground at all. Why? Because if you're a competitive scene, you NEED to test things at tournaments, not just arrive at conclusions based off of conjecture derived from a prequel to a game. Remember when everyone found out that you could gimp tether recoveries just by edge-hogging? Remember when people complained that this RUINED OLIMAR? That went pretty far, didn't it?
We have, we are. We came up with the same conclusion: No, thank you.

And not everything needs to be tested first... especially not at major tournaments. You do not turn major tournaments into testing grounds. Large sums of money and prestige are at stake at major tournaments, you turn smaller ones into testing grounds!
 

Axis

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I do agree with you that things should be tested in tournaments, and they were...in the gamestop tournaments, local tourneys and so on, but after only a few months I dont see any tournament listings on SWF or All is Brawl where items are included. And these tournaments are run by all sorts of people from all different places, and they seem to have all come to the same conclusion on items independently, sending a fairly clear message on how players are playing the game competitively. And while I agree that certain things can only gain true validity in a "trial by fire", evo would not be the place to do it... that would be like changing rules in football right before the super bowl.
 

Kizzu-kun

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Something as significant as items SHOULD be tested in tournaments, and it's mind-boggling that people refuse to let it get off the ground at all. Why? Because if you're a competitive scene, you NEED to test things at tournaments, not just arrive at conclusions based off of conjecture derived from a prequel to a game. Remember when everyone found out that you could gimp tether recoveries just by edge-hogging? Remember when people complained that this RUINED OLIMAR? That went pretty far, didn't it?
And items were tested before, lol.
Evo isn't making history in that.
Or is making for being so blind to a experienced worldwide community, and this community that I'm talking about isn't just about SWF.
 

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When it's a major tournament, people will be playing more seriously. I don't think too many people doubt this. When the weight of competition is bearing down on you, it can and often does reveal things not previously known.

Also, if there ARE this many local tournaments that tried items, then tell them that! And as for Game Stop, the tournament happened when the game was barely a month old in Japan and barely out in America. You're not going to prove that items ruin the game when practically no one knew how to play and even those that did were still relatively new to the game.
 

Cal-

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One big problem that I see involved with the inclusion of smash balls in competitive play is the effect that it has on ZSS mainers. If a smash ball were to spawn during a match involving her then the player is left with a selection of grim possibilities, they may be able to take the smash ball, but this only results in ZSS becoming vanilla Samus, a character who's playstyle may not suit that of the player's. The other possibility would to avoid the smash ball and hope to land a KO when the enemy obtains it, but I believe that that is hardly a viable option as the majority of the time the enemy would be able to launch their final smash before the Zamus could take action, ultimately the player is forced in to a situation where the player is actually disadvantaged by the spawning of a smash ball - which would most likely happen at least once a game.

It may only be one character, but I feel that is is unfair to disadvantage those that play Zamus in such a way, as they may not have been yet to develop their ability to play a different character at the same level or prefer her play-style far more than any other character on the roster.
 

Kizzu-kun

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When it's a major tournament, people will be playing more seriously. I don't think too many people doubt this. When the weight of competition is bearing down on you, it can and often does reveal things not previously known.

Also, if there ARE this many local tournaments that tried items, then tell them that! And as for Game Stop, the tournament happened when the game was barely a month old in Japan and barely out in America. You're not going to prove that items ruin the game when practically no one knew how to play and even those that did were still relatively new to the game.
Read the thread;
Yuna said:
Apparently, to him and SRK, "proof" can only come in the form of video evidence (because it's so hard to use your imagination) and according to many of "those" people, proof can also only come in the form of tournament videos. According to yet others within that enclave, proof can only come in the form of tournament videos of really skilled Smashers (I'm guessing according to SRK-standard as SWF-standard RSSers (Really Skilled Smasher) would rather have sex with George W. Bush than play with items on).
 

Yuna

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One big problem that I see involved with the inclusion of smash balls in competitive play is the effect that it has on ZSS mainers. If a smash ball were to spawn during a match involving her then the player is left with a selection of grim possibilities, they may be able to take the smash ball, but this only results in ZSS becoming vanilla Samus, a character who's playstyle may not suit that of the player's. The other possibility would to avoid the smash ball and hope to land a KO when the enemy obtains it, but I believe that that is hardly a viable option as the majority of the time the enemy would be able to launch their final smash before the Zamus could take action, ultimately the player is forced in to a situation where the player is actually disadvantaged by the spawning of a smash ball - which would most likely happen at least once a game.

It may only be one character, but I feel that is is unfair to disadvantage those that play Zamus in such a way, as they may not have been yet to develop their ability to play a different character at the same level or prefer her play-style far more than any other character on the roster.
It's the other way 'round. Samus can turn into Zamus using a quick-taunt hax. Zamus cannot. Thus, Samus players are the more screwed over party here.

In fact, Zamus' FS is overpowered in that it sucks you in and has a huge hitbox (and is unblocakble, like all other FS:es). The hitbox stays out for a long time, so you can't airdodge, roll or spotdodge it. It's relatively weak, though. But it leaves her with tons of items with a lot of knockback to chuck at you.
 

AlphaZealot

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The old thread was closed because it was turning into spam/awful posting. If this thread degrades into more of the same, it will suffer a similar fate. This thread is living on borrowed time, but hey, if everyone keeps it civil then I'll leave it be.
 

Yuna

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If only a small number of people (like, say, 5 or less) derail the thread, can't you just warn them/ban them and let it live on? That is, if only a small minority are spamming without substance, that is.
 

AlphaZealot

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I guess, but this thread is just asking for much more than that, and I think you know it to, so, just constantly remind people to keep it civil.
 

Yuna

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I guess, but this thread is just asking for much more than that, and I think you know it to, so, just constantly remind people to keep it civil.
Of course. Though I don't think it'd be out of line to say things like "stupid" and "idiot", just not go further than that.
 

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I agree completely with Yuna. When local gaming places decide to run smash tournaments, they are always willing to compromise with the rules. In fact, they usually let smashers run their tournaments, and they always let smashers give them advice for the rule set and what not. Why should Evo be any different? They don't know the game as well as we do, and why would they think that a few people playing a game for two months would be able to come up with a good rule set. If you want to make a fair rule set, you need a lot more testers than a few biased guys. This mr. wizard seems pretty ignorant in general protocol for running a tournament.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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I agree completely with Yuna. When local gaming places decide to run smash tournaments, they are always willing to compromise with the rules. In fact, they usually let smashers run their tournaments, and they always let smashers give them advice for the rule set and what not. Why should Evo be any different? They don't know the game as well as we do, and why would they think that a few people playing a game for two months would be able to come up with a good rule set. If you want to make a fair rule set, you need a lot more testers than a few biased guys. This mr. wizard seems pretty ignorant in general protocol for running a tournament.
I was going to leave this repeat thread well enough alone, but this viewpoint is blind. Local tourneys here can't possibly succeed in this environment if they attempt to change the rules. Look at FFA. They tried, and they got boycotted. The immaturity in the people participating forced the hand of the TO because unlike a national, where attendance will at least be nominal under almost every circumstance, these local tourneys require attendance. FFA sounded like their following tourney, had they not caved, would have been an 8 man bracket at best. Considering they take a chunk out of the pot to afford the venue, this essentially killed it for them, and they had no choice.

I don't see how when a local tourney gets firebombed for trying something different, you can say that local tourneys are the place for experimentation. Actions such as these made Evo the way it is today. The few tourneys that actually ran items with people that actually tried to take it seriously seemed quite successful and showed Evo staff little of the problems that seem to be the belief as the expected outcome. The very few that ran items and had reactions of distaste only showed people have a preference against items, not that items weren't competitive. That's the difference here.

Also, Yuna. Why do you have such a hatedrive for this when you had no plans on attending anyway? How does this affect you so much that you have to crusade against it? Is it so bad someone has a different view from yours and wants to give something a try?
 

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Dude, when did I say that local tourneys are the place for experimentation? I said that local tourneys allow people that know the game well to help them run their tournaments and provide good rulesets. At least this is my experience in the MD/VA area, tournament directors are very open to the knowledge of those that know the game.

I still don't understand how people can think that items, especially smash balls, could possibly be competitive. Like scar said, there is a difference between competitive and competition. Allowing smash balls to be on is like playing rock paper scissors with your money on the line. It's a lot of luck. Smash balls open randomly, so you can't even say there is strategy in getting them, and they appear randomly, so you can't predict where they will appear. Not to mention, when you get them, you hold extreme leverage in the match that you don't deserve. People are not allowed to play their style of playing when their opponent has a smash ball, because they could die so easily from it.

Also, what tournaments that ran items had good smashers that went, and was received well by the community? I have never heard of one, so I would like to know? I'm sure local noobs would love to go to a tournaments are allowed, cause then they have a chance to win, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed in real tournaments where good players have their money on the line...
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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Dude, when did I say that local tourneys are the place for experimentation? I said that local tourneys allow people that know the game well to help them run their tournaments and provide good rulesets. At least this is my experience in the MD/VA area, tournament directors are very open to the knowledge of those that know the game.
I agree completely with Yuna. When local gaming places decide to run smash tournaments, they are always willing to compromise with the rules.
This.

I still don't understand how people can think that items, especially smash balls, could possibly be competitive. Like scar said, there is a difference between competitive and competition. Allowing smash balls to be on is like playing rock paper scissors with your money on the line. It's a lot of luck. Smash balls open randomly, so you can't even say there is strategy in getting them, and they appear randomly, so you can't predict where they will appear. Not to mention, when you get them, you hold extreme leverage in the match that you don't deserve. People are not allowed to play their style of playing when their opponent has a smash ball, because they could die so easily from it.
That's your opinion on the matter, and I won't question it. As far as Smashballs, however... don't open randomly. They have a set damage meter that is slightly random, but rarely drifts around enough to show a notable difference, then slowly counts down the longer it's out. A fresh spawn will never break in one hit aside from a fully charged Great Punch or the power moves (Eruption at hits max, Volcano Kick, Warlock Punch). Meanwhile, a smashball that has been out for 10-15 seconds can be broken in one blow by most attacks. That's a considerable amount of time for the item to be out in order to be broken so easy.

Also, what tournaments that ran items had good smashers that went, and was received well by the community? I have never heard of one, so I would like to know? I'm sure local noobs would love to go to a tournaments are allowed, cause then they have a chance to win, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed in real tournaments where good players have their money on the line...
From this community? None. As I said, this community has a hard time accepting difference. Two tourneys orchestrated by members of SRK were able to start a tourney in their own venues, and while certain members still refused to take it seriously, they overall were successful. I'm not 100% if DBQ was advertised here or not, but I know for a fact the Monterey Park tourney was.
 

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you misinterpreted what I said completely. When I said, "tournament directors are willing to compromise", I meant that whatever ruleset they had originally, they were willing to change it to fit the smash community. Not change it to fit whatever they wanted. Also, what benefit does Evo get from sticking to these rules? They will most likely get a drop in attendance, meaning less profit. I srsly doubt that they want a drop in attendance. Why would they openly decide to go against the majority of people's wishes when they know it could cost them money. It just seems illogical to me...

and if they actually care that much about items being on, that they are willing to lose some money, then we have all the right in the world to argue against it because that's what we believe to be the best. I just completely fail to see why they would continue to go against the smash community as a whole (or at least the ones that would attend a major tournament).

As for smashballs, I guess I was unaware of the time thing, but that doesn't change most of my argument. No matter what, one character ends up having an extremely large advantage that they didn't earn, which is pretty uncompetitive if you ask me...
 

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So by the look of it even if I bring video proof, it won't do anything? That sucks. I guess that this weekend i will just practice for a real tournament, rather than Evo. I will still try to get five or ten matches recorded.
 

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you misinterpreted what I said completely. When I said, "tournament directors are willing to compromise", I meant that whatever ruleset they had originally, they were willing to change it to fit the smash community. Not change it to fit whatever they wanted. Also, what benefit does Evo get from sticking to these rules? They will most likely get a drop in attendance, meaning less profit. I srsly doubt that they want a drop in attendance. Why would they openly decide to go against the majority of people's wishes when they know it could cost them money. It just seems illogical to me...
If that's what you mean, then, fine. However, Evo is running things how they have seen fit, and will see just how it turns out. From the data they've received thusfar, they're not seeing a problem.

and if they actually care that much about items being on, that they are willing to lose some money, then we have all the right in the world to argue against it because that's what we believe to be the best. I just completely fail to see why they would continue to go against the smash community as a whole (or at least the ones that would attend a major tournament).
It's really simple. It's a matter of opinion. The only facts that were shown were what developed the ruleset they currently have. The fact that it's your opinion otherwise is irrelevant. There's no one forcing it to be the standard rules. It's just an alternative. The opinion has been voiced, but the opinion they have taken is their own.

As for smashballs, I guess I was unaware of the time thing, but that doesn't change most of my argument. No matter what, one character ends up having an extremely large advantage that they didn't earn, which is pretty uncompetitive if you ask me...
And that is your opinion on the matter. SRK's opinion is that the depth it adds counterbalances the randomness to the point that it actually improves on the competition. Most of the community here believes the contrary. That's fine. No one's trying to say one opinion is better than the other. Simply that a tourney based on one opinion shouldn't be stifled by the majority. Let them make their mistake, if that's what it really ends up being. If it turns out not to be a mistake, and shows to be a perfectly acceptable alternative method of play, why can't they co-exist?
 

Wuss

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Well fine then. Hopefully Evo will see at this tournament (because no other way will work) that items are not fit for a competitive environment, and that the rules ought to be changed, regardless of the turnout they get.

Another problem with this, is that it certainly gets the smash community no respect with other gaming communities. Not that we should care completely, but if smash is to be seen as a viable game for good competition, then a low level of gameplay that will most likely occur at Evo is not going to help.
 

Yuna

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I was going to leave this repeat thread well enough alone, but this viewpoint is blind. Local tourneys here can't possibly succeed in this environment if they attempt to change the rules. Look at FFA. They tried, and they got boycotted. The immaturity in the people participating forced the hand of the TO because unlike a national, where attendance will at least be nominal under almost every circumstance, these local tourneys require attendance. FFA sounded like their following tourney, had they not caved, would have been an 8 man bracket at best. Considering they take a chunk out of the pot to afford the venue, this essentially killed it for them, and they had no choice.
I'm going to assume FFA is a tournament and not the style of play (Free-For-All). So what if people boycotted it? They are free to boycott it. It's not like Smashboards ran some kind of campaign against it. Players just said "I don't like the rules, I won't go." and probably talked to friends about it to enlighten them about what they disagreed with.

It's like any other event, if people don't like it, they won't go.

I don't see how when a local tourney gets firebombed for trying something different, you can say that local tourneys are the place for experimentation. Actions such as these made Evo the way it is today. The few tourneys that actually ran items with people that actually tried to take it seriously seemed quite successful and showed Evo staff little of the problems that seem to be the belief as the expected outcome. The very few that ran items and had reactions of distaste only showed people have a preference against items, not that items weren't competitive. That's the difference here.
They ran limited testing for 2 months... limited testing for two months. And nowhere in there did they find any evidence for what we're saying can't and doesn't happen. The best they can hope for is people proving that it doesn't really happen very often (which we've never claimed). And the fact of the matter is that when two people of equal skill face off using the same character and it would've been a deadlocked match down to the last Smash, the one with the most item spawn luck will win.

This is unacceptable so us, maybe not to EVO. They also claim it's not luck, it's "Stage Control".

I'm not saying "Use all smaller (local) tournaments for experimentation!", I'm saying "If you're going to experiment, EVO is not the right place, it's be much more logical to use smaller (local) tournaments". Let me run 10 tournaments and I'll find tons of videos where the arguments I'm using against items in Brawl are proven.

Biased research by a limited biased group will yield biased results. I haven't seen this supposed testing, each video and their findings. Who's to say they didn't ignore a lot of valid evidence against items?

SRK Itemnite: Oh, that item spawned next to X while Y was half-way across the stage. Stage Control, Y should've covered that part of the stage.
Me: Sheer dumb luck. You can't possibly cover all of Final Destination! You cannot know where an item will spawn!

Also, Yuna. Why do you have such a hatedrive for this when you had no plans on attending anyway? How does this affect you so much that you have to crusade against it? Is it so bad someone has a different view from yours and wants to give something a try?
Because I know people who would. Because I like to correct wrongs wherever I see them, not just when it affects me.

I'll champion what I think is the right cause no matter where as long as I can and have an interest in it. It's like telling me to sod off if X-American State was going to legalize discrimination based on sexual orientation and I was debating against it.

And that is your opinion on the matter. SRK's opinion is that the depth it adds counterbalances the randomness to the point that it actually improves on the competition. Most of the community here believes the contrary. That's fine. No one's trying to say one opinion is better than the other. Simply that a tourney based on one opinion shouldn't be stifled by the majority. Let them make their mistake, if that's what it really ends up being. If it turns out not to be a mistake, and shows to be a perfectly acceptable alternative method of play, why can't they co-exist?
What depth? The depth of "Dodge it or die!"? The depth of "Dodge it and live, but you're not getting anything out of it!"?

The depth of the fact that you're invincible during your entire FS (except for Pit), meaning Transformation FS:es are hella broken as most of them have less cooldown afterwards than invincibility frames? The depth that Marth can combo into a 70% FS with a killer knockback from at least 6 different moves? The depth that FS:es are camping tools of mass lameness? The depth that some FS:es are impossible to dodge due to how long their hitboxes are out and how large them are? The depth that Marth's not the only one who can combo into his FS? The depth that FS:es are highly imbalanced and will limit the amount of playable characters to, like, 4 (great without FS:es, great with FS:es)? The depth that Smash Balls won't always fly in the direction they're hit but sometimes in a random direction? The depth that Smash Balls actually randomly take more "damage" from certain attacks like certain projectiles (Pit's arrows open a Smash Ball way sooner than they should)? The depth that Smash Balls still spawn randomly? The depth that you can't approach the opponent for fear of getting FS:ed once he has the Smash Ball because of aforementioned invincibility frames? The depth that Fox, Falco and Wolf have an almost guaranteed stock from their FS because of how broken they are? The depth that some are just overpowered? In Smash, 1 stock equates one round in a "traditional" fighter. Some FS:es can take an entire stock and possibly more, meaning you just won the round + got extra damage for a single attack.
 

Yuna

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I have yet to see an intelligent response that invalidates this as an answer to the question of how items negatively affect play.

Real men use items

I imagine the answer is something stunningly simple, but strangely, no one has ever provided me with it.
The answer using SRK logic: (Seriously, this is the answer they gave to a question I posed about the same thing) "Marth shouldn't have gotten grabbed at that very moment. It's called Stage Control. Sheik had Stage Control, she controlled that part of the stage, or in this case, prevented Marth from doing so, at that very moment."
 

AlphaZealot

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Would anyone like to help me with my research?
The other day I finally decided to test a theory, based on:
1) Designer stating items level playing field
2) Knowledge that the game records who the current winner is by stock count(view big screen on Pokemon Stadium)
3) Rubber band affect of Mario Kart items
---
My test was simple, two Mario's spread apart to each end of FD. 1 Mario is suicided at start of match, items set to high, starman only.
Since I did a quick test, I simply wanted to see which side (half of FD) got to 10 items first.
Trial 1: losers side 10, winners side 2
Trial 2: losers side 10, winners side 3

I posted this in the SBR about a day ago, M3D just recently mentioned he did a test after mine with Falco on Lylat using Pokeballs, and that in 10 games to 4 minutes, the number of items spawning on the losing players side was in that players favor by a ratio of about 2-1.

I plan to record 10 4 minute matches and make note of where each item spawns. I'm not willing to conclusively say anything yet, but so far this definitely warrants more testing. This would be an epic breakthrough.
 

Zankoku

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AZ, might also want to test based on score. For example, if Mario1 KO'd Mario2, then SD'd twice, Mario2 would theoretically have a stock advantage but their scores would be equal.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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The response to that hypothetical answer would of course be that Marth wouldn't have hit the mine from the throw if it hadn't been for the random capsule that popped out of nowhere. His lack of stage control would have been punished by a throw and an ftilt, not a stock.
I think the thing that missed here is that there is some level of agreement here. This is why containers aren't even in the Evo ruleset. It is part of the compromise that some people seem to think isn't happening. If things weren't voiced at all to the contrary, Evo Brawl could very well have been All-Brawl. The rules they've decided on are a compromise in that regard.

In even most SRK members' view, without a question, Hearts/Stars/Tomatoes/Curry are out of the question, as well as a vast majority that believe the "attack/touch activation" items like containers/explosives should not be in play. Similarly, NPC/Temple/Spear are also something that is, without a doubt, removed from play due to undeniable evidence supporting it. Beyond this point, it's really a gray area. Some people are more liberal in their selection (Keits), while some are more conservative (UltraDavid, for example). A compromise was met in the middle and that was pretty much how it fell the way it did.

In this case, the example isn't very valid in proving against what Evo has decided on in the first place, as that's Melee. The game's mechanics have changed considerably since then, and the defensive options have increased in potency. Even if this were a Brawl match (and videos I've seen linked in SRK, AIB, and here that provided "proof" like that), would have shown that yes, that item has already been noted as not worth the added depth to warrant their value and is irrelevant. It doesn't mean that all items can be ruled out of play because one bad seed is in the list.
 

EnigmaticCam

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In even most SRK members' view, without a question, Hearts/Stars/Tomatoes/Curry are out of the question, as well as a vast majority that believe the "attack/touch activation" items like containers/explosives should not be in play. Similarly, NPC/Temple/Spear are also something that is, without a doubt, removed from play due to undeniable evidence supporting it
What evidence? I never saw vids suggested by SRK as evidence to ban certain items/stages. I never saw tourny results used by SRK to support their ideas behind what should be banned or not.

It's just another double-standard. What's obvious to them goes without needing testing, yet what's obvious to anyone else (such as it's obvious to SWF that items should be turned off period) has to be tested first. Not that either opinion is correct, but the fact that one opinion automatically holds more weight than the other is ridiculous.
 

Cyntalan Maelstrom

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What evidence? I never saw vids suggested by SRK as evidence to ban certain items/stages. I never saw tourny results used by SRK to support their ideas behind what should be banned or not.

It's just another double-standard. What's obvious to them goes without needing testing, yet what's obvious to anyone else (such as it's obvious to SWF that items should be turned off period) has to be tested first. Not that either opinion is correct, but the fact that one opinion automatically holds more weight than the other is ridiculous.
So what you're saying is, after all is said in done from all sides of debate, that the people in charge of the tourney shouldn't be the ones to make the decisions? That after hearing all the varying opinions, reviewing the facts, and coming to their conclusion on how to run their tourney, that they have no right making the decision? Even after asking for facts to why the contrary, opinion was brought to their attention more than facts, and while their opinion may be in the majority, the people in charge make the final decision, and their opinion differs. That's really the end of it. Why does this have to be such a big deal?
 

kirbstir

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So what you're saying is, after all is said in done from all sides of debate, that the people in charge of the tourney shouldn't be the ones to make the decisions? That after hearing all the varying opinions, reviewing the facts, and coming to their conclusion on how to run their tourney, that they have no right making the decision? Even after asking for facts to why the contrary, opinion was brought to their attention more than facts, and while their opinion may be in the majority, the people in charge make the final decision, and their opinion differs. That's really the end of it. Why does this have to be such a big deal?
Because we were called scrubs for doing the same thing.
 

Alex Strife

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Because we were called scrubs for doing the same thing.
I learned very quickly that most SRK ppl in charge are older men who are too afraid of doing things differently...I could add a lot more to this argument but really its at a point where I do not even care and I think most people just wanna do a major brawl tournament somewhere else.

so as others say...eff it
 
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