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The EVO-ruleset (continued...)

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Yuna

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For the record, most people agree Final Smashes and Dragoon pieces are a bad idea.
Not SRK.

Players like Yuna clearly seem to be arguing from a viewpoint that says randomness is bad for competitive play. They too prove items are bad for competitive play cause they have this view point. But they seem to be forgetting one thing. When a player grabs a item it still hasn't had any effect on the other player. A player getting crappy items but using them well can be better then a player getting strong items but not using them efficiently.
Blah blah. We're not talking about two people of unequal skill, one who knows how to play the game and can handle items and one who can't. We're talking about people of equal skill where in a match, the one with the most luck would get the most Golden Hammers that didn't backfire and totally destroy his opponent.

So stop using the "Bad player vs. Good player"-argument... it's an invalid one.

Blah blah.
We tried this back when. Well, not "we", I didn't. But I've actually personally entered tournaments with items. And you know what we determined back then? It's... not... good. Brawl is different, but the way items work haven't changed so much nor has the game itself changed so much regarding handling items we feel we should switch them back on.

Blah, blah, blah, useless hyperbole and illogical stuff.
 

Nobie

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The main issue when randomness is introduced is the extent to which the player who wins the match can be considered the better player.

There is certainly a limit to randomness, that if it is too great a force that it ruins all potential for competition. At the same time, the degree to which this limit is acceptable varies greatly from person to person, and the smash community in general, though it leans away from randomness.

I haven't seen the point brought up recently, but one thing I saw people argue in the past in regards to random being bad is the example of a big tournament final with a huge prize pool where the victory was determined by a lucky item spawn.

Let's put aside the fact that the really problematic items (bob-ombs, etc) have been turned off for EVO, and just address the lucky item, and the concept of "luck" itself.

If that winning item has a 10% chance of spawning, then people would be angry at the result of course. But if the item had a 1% chance or even a .1% chance people would be even angrier, I think. Minimizing randomness still means the randomness exists, and so when that rare exception occurs it becomes even more "shocking."

Basically, I think people are afraid that even with luck minimized in an items-on tournament the most important matches may still have the "taint" of a lucky win.

This isn't really my stance, but it's what I've observed based on people's reactions not only to items but to things such as tripping.
 

Yuna

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It wouldn't even be half this bad if they hadn't left Hammers, Golden Hammers and Smash Balls on. Because at least then the items would be kind harmless to quasi-good. Now some of them are just flat out broken.

They justify this with "But hammers and golden hammers can sometimes backfire!" - Yeah, well, that's even more ****ty randomness.

Every time my opponent grabs a golden hammer, it's not a dud and I die. When I grab one, it's a dud and I get killed. Fair?
 

polarity

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Not SRK.We tried this back when. Well, not "we", I didn't. But I've actually personally entered tournaments with items. And you know what we determined back then? It's... not... good. Brawl is different, but the way items work haven't changed so much nor has the game itself changed so much regarding handling items we feel we should switch them back on.
Uh, how can you make this claim when in the past couple days many new discoveries have been made regarding how items function in Brawl?
 

Yuna

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Uh, how can you make this claim when in the past couple days many new discoveries have been made regarding how items function in Brawl?
Because all of said discoveries kinda work in my "favour" and against "yours" in why we should ban them?
 

Ryuker

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Not SRK.

Blah blah. We're not talking about two people of unequal skill, one who knows how to play the game and can handle items and one who can't. We're talking about people of equal skill where in a match, the one with the most luck would get the most Golden Hammers that didn't backfire and totally destroy his opponent.
And if you change golden hammer to green shells does your opinion change cause the green shell isn't as effective as the golden hammer?

So stop using the "Bad player vs. Good player"-argument... it's an invalid one.
No 2 players are of equal skill. If they were they would know exactly what to do agains the other and don't make mistakes. In order for one player to hit the other one of them has to mess up it's that simple. I didn't intend to use the bad vs good player argument. I merely said that even if you get bad items you get less usefull items you can still use them in a smart way. You don't have luck at your side but it's not a valid excuse to say I lost cause of that and I there was nothing I could do about it. These situations are very rare and you can almost always do something about it Perhaps I shouldn't have said that a bad player sucking at using strong items is a valid arguement so I redraw that.
 

polarity

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Because all of said discoveries kinda work in my "favour" and against "yours" in why we should ban them?
Even if they did - which they don't - it still goes to show that our knowledge regarding items is incomplete. There's no telling what could be discovered in future.

I just wanted to share this really quickly. I seem to remember a little while ago someone was saying "Are you kidding? Of course SRK recognizes Smash as a real fighting game!"

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=155923

Sure they do.
Hey dude despite popular belief neither SRK or SWF are homogenous hive minds.
 

Yuna

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And if you change golden hammer to green shells does your opinion change cause the green shell isn't as effective as the golden hammer?
Still random and it's still hella strong.

No 2 players are of equal skill. If they were they would know exactly what to do agains the other and don't make mistakes. In order for one player to hit the other one of them has to mess up it's that simple. I didn't intend to use the bad vs good player argument. I merely said that even if you get bad items you get less usefull items you can still use them in a smart way. You don't have luck at your side but it's not a valid excuse to say I lost cause of that and I there was nothing I could do about it. These situations are very rare and you can almost always do something about it Perhaps I shouldn't have said that a bad player sucking at using strong items is a valid arguement so I redraw that.
I'm sorry, they must've rewritten the English language since I last looked up the meanings of the words "equal" and "skill".. to "Psychic".

Me vs. Not-Me. We are of equal skill. We'll fall for the same things, mess up with the same stuff, etc... generally that is. In a normal match, we'd be deadlocked and win either by a single huge mistake being punished into infinity or a really close game down to the last Smash.

Now throw in items where one lucky spawn (a Green Shell if you will) in the middle of a Brawl-combo can KO Me or Not-Me from a normal simple mistake that wouldn't lead to a KO (normally). Say I'm being comboed, the worst thing that can happen at my current percentage is that I'll eat a Smash/strong aerial and have to recover (no chance of dying). But wait, a Green Shell appears and I die!

Say my opponent has a Green Shell. Normally, if I mess up, the worst that could happen would him hitting me with a fast tilt/aerial/jab. If I mess up now, the Green Shell would KO me.

All due to sheer dumb luck.

Even if they did - which they don't - it still goes to show that our knowledge regarding items is incomplete. There's no telling what could be discovered in future.
"We don't know that this drug isn't lethal. It's only been suggested in preliminary testing, let's put it on the market now and wait 'til it's been proven beyond a doubt that it does indeed kill!"

From what we know insofar, items are broken, imbalanced and luck-based. We know this, you know this, heck, even some of SRK knows this. We just disagree on what's acceptable. Now, we might not know just about everything about items, but does that mean we should leave them on 'til we do? Like just hope somehow will find a magical solution to the many problems they pose somewhere down the road? Instead of just banning them since from all that we know insofar, they should be banned? And if it's eventually proven they aren't ****, then we'll unban them. It's not that hard, really.
 

thumbswayup

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3 stock 5 min? I never understood why Brawl tournament hosters have a complete fascination with lowering the time limit from the 8 min standard that melee set. How ironic that Brawl matches have three stock instead of four because they take so long, yet the time limit is lessened greatly. The majority of my matches last 5-7 min, whereas in melee they'd last about 3-4. Does anyone else see the idiocy here?!
 

polarity

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"We don't know that this drug isn't lethal. It's only been suggested in preliminary testing, let's put it on the market now and wait 'til it's been proven beyond a doubt that it does indeed kill!"
IT'S A ****ING VIDEO GAME TOURNAMENT.

From what we know insofar, items are broken, imbalanced and luck-based. We know this, you know this, heck, even some of SRK knows this. We just disagree on what's acceptable. Now, we might not know just about everything about items, but does that mean we should leave them on 'til we do? Like just hope somehow will find a magical solution to the many problems they pose somewhere down the road?
Ignoring that your assertions of supposed fact are simply very arrogantly stated opinions, yes, we should. Or at least, you should allow people who want to do so to run their own tournaments without having to endure your incessant whining. Nobody is stopping you from running all the items-off tournaments you want, so why is this such a big deal to you?

And if it's eventually proven they aren't ****, then we'll unban them. It's not that hard, really.
It's pretty obvious that nobody will do the research and put in the effort to become proficient at items-on play if no major tournaments support the format. You think it's a coincidence that all these new discoveries about items came within a week of Evo announcing they would use items in their tournament?
 

Zankoku

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"All these new discoveries?" Like the ones that contradicted "stage control," supported findings we made in Melee about items, and proved that certain items simply favored the losing player?
 

Yuna

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IT'S A ****ING VIDEO GAME TOURNAMENT.
You obviously have no grasp of what an "analogy" is.

Ignoring that your assertions of supposed fact are simply very arrogantly stated opinions, yes, we should. Or at least, you should allow people who want to do so to run their own tournaments without having to endure your incessant whining. Nobody is stopping you from running all the items-off tournaments you want, so why is this such a big deal to you?
They can run it, they just shouldn't claim they've got proof we're "wrong" when they don't.

It's pretty obvious that nobody will do the research and put in the effort to become proficient at items-on play if no major tournaments support the format. You think it's a coincidence that all these new discoveries about items came within a week of Evo announcing they would use items in their tournament?
We did the research. Our research still stands. This new information is just additions to said research that in no way contradicts our arguments against items from before.

In fact, SRK was the twits here are they obviously didn't do this supposed "extensive research" they claim to have done determine that items should indeed be allowed. It's obvious they didn't do any search of all that wasn't just playing with items on and saying "Not many matches were decided by lucky Smash Ball spawns!" as we were able to find out in two days what they'd failed to even notice in months of supposed testing.

And I must once again point you towards my sig.
 

NES n00b

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Well, most of the item discoveries have been bad so I don't know why anyone would bring those up as a good thing.

To me, consistency is more important than some kind of nebulous idea of more depth. However, if this is going to happen anyway, when is too much randomness too much. A random nobody wins? A midlevel player (semi pro) beats someone who usually wins tournies (pro)? Or the top three people have close to an equal chance of winning due to luck? I think everyone should ask themselves this if they want to test items in tourney play. I don't think one sample big tourney could possibly show the randomness. It can only show if there are any exploitable tatics when it comes to items.

I still have to ask why to some of the stages and counterpick rules at Evo. Those just don't make sense to me and are much more nonsensical.
 

polarity

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You obviously have no grasp of what an "analogy" is.
It's not a valid analogy. Running an items-on Brawl tournament is going to have a totally negligible negative effect on anybody.


They can run it, they just shouldn't claim they've got proof we're "wrong" when they don't.
Jesus, why do you care? Are you really so concerned with what another community thinks of yours? Get over it and stop crying.


We did the research. Our research still stands. This new information is just additions to said research that in no way contradicts our arguments against items from before.
Serious question: Am I missing something here? Didn't Wobbles' research demonstrate that stage control plays a major role in who items spawn closest to? Didn't further research demonstrate that items spawn closer to the players, which doesn't really prove anything either way? What exactly supports your claims, other than dragoon parts/smash balls giving an advantage to the loser, which isn't necessarily an objectively bad thing anyway?

Regardless of if I've missed something, the most important point of yours that these discoveries contradict, regardless of if the discoveries themselves agree with your other viewpoints or not, is the idea that you know everything there is to know about items. That alone is justification for this tournament; to continue to motivate research.

In fact, SRK was the twits here are they obviously didn't do this supposed "extensive research" they claim to have done determine that items should indeed be allowed. It's obvious they didn't do any search of all that wasn't just playing with items on and saying "Not many matches were decided by lucky Smash Ball spawns!" as we were able to find out in two days what they'd failed to even notice in months of supposed testing.
This is totally irrelevant as I'm not interested in your stupid "SWF vs SRK" internet slap fight.
 

Voidious

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Whether one game has more strategic depth than another is a pretty nebulous thing and practically impossible to objectively establish.
Heh - up for a tic-tac-toe tournament sometime?

I actually think you might be able to do pretty well at estimating a game's strategic depth if you had all the rules formulas, a lot of math skills, and way too much time on your hands.
 

NES n00b

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It's not a valid analogy. Running an items-on Brawl tournament is going to have a totally negligible negative effect on anybody.
In the long run I guess, but having a bad tourney could make Brawl a totally underground tournament game forever. I guess I don't really care since I don't like it much anyways, but it also might make people lose their monies. :(

Jesus, why do you care? Are you really so concerned with what another community thinks of yours? Get over it and stop crying.
You are right, after reading what some SRK people think of Melee, I don't care what they think.



Serious question: Am I missing something here? Didn't Wobbles' research demonstrate that stage control plays a major role in who items spawn closest to? Didn't further research demonstrate that items spawn closer to the players, which doesn't really prove anything either way? What exactly supports your claims, other than dragoon parts/smash balls giving an advantage to the loser, which isn't necessarily an objectively bad thing anyway?

Regardless of if I've missed something, the most important point of yours that these discoveries contradict, regardless of if the discoveries themselves agree with your other viewpoints or not, is the idea that you know everything there is to know about items. That alone is justification for this tournament; to continue to motivate research.
If Timmay is correct, the point of stage control is void as you only have to be on the stage for a good chance to get an item (IE either it is handed to you or it is a totally arbitrary reward for winning said space for item). Therefore, the only depth they would bring is how to use the item and to counteract the other guy's item.

This is totally irrelevant as I'm not interested in your stupid "SWF vs SRK" internet slap fight.
As bad as SRK seems to be in regards to their stubborness, I have to say SWF seems to be bullheaded as well.
 

Samochan

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IT'S A ****ING VIDEO GAME TOURNAMENT.
With loads of money on the line. At least it's not gamestop where you had to chuck wiimote around and the winner walked home with plasma tv, gift card and lots of money. The winner does not get 5,000$ anymore due to no sponsors and instead 70% of the pot, but the competitiveness gets hurt when lots of it is not player skill anymore but random luck. Not forgetting that smash balls, overpowered item, favors the losing player, which is unfair considering how one final smash can take even 2 stocks.

Lots of people are agreeing (or not liking the campyness) in the way competitive brawl runs nowdays, which does not include items. There has been few item tournaments and discussions about how items affect competitiveness and blaa blaa, but the actual tournaments haven't really showed any promise why items on should replace items off. After all, they're very different like SamuraiPanda (or was it AlphaZealot?) has told. So when Evo goes replacing the established items off brawl with items on brawl where the results can get skewed due to more random, uncontrollable factors... And they do so with little evidence on why it is the better format and are hypocrites enough to tell us to get proof why items off is better for competitive play, or let's say, "stage control". If there isn't any interest in playing competitively with items on instead of items off, why go with the former then? Casuals couldn't possibly care less about flying to god-knows-where, cough up money and compete on a tournament setting. And if the majority of the competitive people are not interested...

At least I would get angered if the final match would end in golden hammer ko that my opponent used no skill in getting their hands on. >_>
 

Yuna

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polarity: Stop trolling and read my sig. It's pretty obvious you have nothing of value to add and cannot be reasoned with by now. In fact, considering you joined just now, I'd be willing to bet you came from SRK just to troll us.

Read my sig, go away.
 

polarity

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With loads of money on the line. At least it's not gamestop where you had to chuck wiimote around and the winner walked home with plasma tv, gift card and lots of money. The winner does not get 5,000$ anymore due to no sponsors and instead 70% of the pot, but the competitiveness gets hurt when lots of it is not player skill anymore but random luck. Not forgetting that smash balls, overpowered item, favors the losing player, which is unfair considering how one final smash can take even 2 stocks.

Lots of people are agreeing (or not liking the campyness) in the way competitive brawl runs nowdays, which does not include items. There has been few item tournaments and discussions about how items affect competitiveness and blaa blaa, but the actual tournaments haven't really showed any promise why items on should replace items off. After all, they're very different like SamuraiPanda (or was it AlphaZealot?) has told. So when Evo goes replacing the established items off brawl with items on brawl where the results can get skewed due to more random, uncontrollable factors... And they do so with little evidence on why it is the better format and are hypocrites enough to tell us to get proof why items off is better for competitive play, or let's say, "stage control". If there isn't any interest in playing competitively with items on instead of items off, why go with the former then? Casuals couldn't possibly care less about flying to god-knows-where, cough up money and compete on a tournament setting. And if the majority of the competitive people are not interested...

At least I would get angered if the final match would end in golden hammer ko that my opponent used no skill in getting their hands on. >_>
Is there any complaint here that isn't solved by just not going to Evo?

It's just another tournament, I don't see the big deal...

polarity: Stop trolling and read my sig. It's pretty obvious you have nothing of value to add and cannot be reasoned with by now. In fact, considering you joined just now, I'd be willing to bet you came from SRK just to troll us.

Read my sig, go away.
So you concede, okay dude. I know it hurts to admit you're wrong but I trust that in time you'll come to admit that I'm right ;)
 

Yuna

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The fact that every single person in this thread either disagrees with you or are just ignoring you must mean you're right... plus the fact that we've all got evidence to back our points up while you have, hmmm... do you even have actual arguments?

Anyway, back to SRK, has anyone lurked their boards? What's the latest development on this (if any)?
 

Zankoku

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Is there any complaint here that isn't solved by just not going to Evo?

It's just another tournament, I don't see the big deal...
It would be rather amusing to see EVO, being the first major videogames tournament to pick up Brawl, represent the future of Brawl.

Because people didn't attend it, since it's just another tournament.
 

Samochan

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Is there any complaint here that isn't solved by just not going to Evo?

It's just another tournament, I don't see the big deal...
With the possiblity to interact with other fightning game communities and people accross the country and very big setting, also a big prize pot since it's supposedly 45$ you have to cough up to participate.

But it really only hurts everyone when SRK adopted the items on format. They get less attendeers cause lots of people won't simply come due to ruleset and we get less fun cause lots of us won't enjoy using money to try and play competitively with items on. It's a lose-lose situation. ._.
 

polarity

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It would be rather amusing to see EVO, being the first major videogames tournament to pick up Brawl, represent the future of Brawl.

Because people didn't attend it, since it's just another tournament.
Why do people keep acting like this is even a remote possibility?

I seriously just don't understand this logic. Can you explain to me how a single major items-on tournament could possibly cause the entire no-items scene to cease to exist, especially if the tournament is as big a flop as you guys seem convinced it will be?
 

Zankoku

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Why do people keep acting like this is even a remote possibility?
I'm not. I'm simply musing. Duh.

Can you explain to me how a single major items-on tournament could possibly cause the entire no-items scene to cease to exist,
The tournament would certainly either encourage or discourage future major videogame tournament organizers from picking the game up to start with. Then again, I suppose the Smash community is quite able to sustain itself.
especially if the tournament is as big a flop as you guys seem convinced it will be?
It will be if everyone took your advice, seeing as how practically nobody around here currently agrees with the item/stage rules, even those who are fine with items.
 

polarity

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If other major tournament organizers snub Brawl because of Evo (which seems unlikely anyway if you guys can hold other, successful majors), your issue is with them, not with Evo. Evo isn't responsible for anyone but themselves, nor should they be.

And yes, the Smash community is perfectly able to sustain itself.
 

Zankoku

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Then, you should shut up stop telling people to either go or not go, and just let the discussion here return to research on how items behave in Brawl. ^_^
 

Revolver Roosevelt

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I'm sorry. Items do not ADD depth, per se. They SHIFT the depth by encouraging players to play a different play style. If you honestly want a game where players need to control several factors at once, try SSBM's Bonus Mode.

See how "deep" a game you get.
 

Ryuker

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But DDD's finals smash isn't nearly as effective as most others are and you can avoid a lot of it. If DDD is farming them you can only mean DDD will use them and thus we only have to decide if his final smash will be broken. His final smash doesn't seem to be as broken as you claim now and if he farms a smash ball but I get it I can use it myself. Suddenly I am use his farming technique against himself.

[QUOTE ]I'm sorry. Items do not ADD depth, per se. They SHIFT the depth by encouraging players to play a different play style. If you honestly want a game where players need to control several factors at once, try SSBM's Bonus Mode.

See how "deep" a game you get. [/QUOTE]

Items change the situation. They force players to act in a different way. I didn't even know depth can shift in game. I thought depth is used to describe a games lasting appeal, variety and reward after spending a long time researching it. But I can be wrong of course.
You already have a game in which the players need to control several factors at once. Banana's is one of them and stage control another. If anything I thought you can't control when items fall which means you actually get a game that doesn't let the player control that factor. The only thing you have to be is versatile and able to improvise so on.
I don't understand your bonus mode argument. Bonus mode is a mode that determines the outcome based on the performance of a player and the times the player meets a certain standard. But you have no control of what the game gives you you just have to make sure you meet the requirements. Please explain the bonus mode argument.
 

itsameSMB

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(edit: posted while the item debate was going on)

Oh boy, this thread became another items vs. no items...

It's not as if the items and stages were the only problems with the tournaments were the only things that could be considered poor choices with this ruleset. What about these ideas?

1) Lengthen matches by increasing stock and time limit

Sure, it may make the matches last longer, but in a way it could partially negate the unfair KOs caused by cheap items and stage hazards. Let's ponder for a moment: we have 2 players that have a somewhat noticeable difference in skill where P1 is a veteran competative smasher (not necessarily a pro) and P2, though her/she knows the ropes and knows a trick or two but has not played in as many tourneys as P1 and generally would not be considered better than them. 5 stock would be fine in determining the better of the two without items (since the KOs would take long longer with just attacks), but not with, as any stocks lost due to items or hazards would be too difficult to make up. For example, P1 has 3 stock plus 64% and P2 has 2 stock and 119% damage but a golden hammer spawns by P2. Save for it being a squeaky one (and P2 not sucking), P2 could knock one or two stocks off P1 (heck, even 3 if P2 was lucky), putting P1 at a massive disadvantage (especially if P1 racked up a substantial amount of damage when hit by the hammer but not KO'ed). Even if P1 could KO P2 once more before the match ended, P2 could still finish P1 during their invincibilty frames after getting off the recovery platform or a least land a few good blows in before it expires or just play defensively 'till the end of the match (if he/she still has 2 stock). Granted that P1 could still turn the match around, but the disadvantage would be equivalent to bringing a knife to a gunfight. Now, let's say that instead of starting with 5 stock and 7 minutes, they both had 10 stock and 30 minutes to play. If the scenario played out the same way as previously described, P1 would still be at a disadvantage, but he/she would still have plenty of stock and time to turn things around. In fact, if P1 lucked out, they could end up with a smash ball or something to that effect and [almost] completely flip the match back in their favor. The stocks will go like crazy with some of these items on anyway, and with the increased stock, more opportunities will arise where people will be able to develop item-related strategies in brawl (be it using or avoiding). Remember, luck is like oil: some people may have more of it, but it will run out eventually, and having more stocks will minimize the influence luck has on tournament outcomes. At least, that's what I speculate.

2) Low item spawns, but not off

Let's say while P1 is flying into the backround after being hit with a golden hammer, a smash ball appears by P2. P2 (obviously) gets it and can do a FS as soon as the GH wears off. In theory, if P2 uses items to keep P1 away, P2 could keep getting all the items while P1 is recovering, leading to total match domination by P2 no matter what P1 does. The solution? Minimize item spawns at times where only one player can grab an item. The only way to do that is to lower the spawn frequency itself, which leads to having one or two items on-stage at a time. There's a difference between no chance and little chance of grawbbing an item that appeared, and a big one at that. If P1 is close to P2 during the spawn while P2 doesn't have an item, P1 could nab the item before P2 even before P2 notices it's there! Keeping items on low could make matches unpredictable without making them one-sided.

Let's start with that, since items don't seem to be going anywhere. (waits to be proven wrong/flamed)
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Then, you should shut up stop telling people to either go or not go, and just let the discussion here return to research on how items behave in Brawl. ^_^
Indeed, COUM. If your points are continually "Why do you care?" and "Then just don't go" then why are you bothering to debate anything in the first place?
 

EnigmaticCam

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 22, 2005
Messages
688
Location
CA
Only when perceived through the very rigid lens of Chess' gameplay, which in itself is silly.

The very definition of depth implies the concept "how much". Extracting from any complexed system causes that concept to suffer.

Brawl's system is an order magnitude more complexed than Chess'.

Now, with your current mindset, I'm going to preemptively address your most logical response:

You: "The important parallel to draw, is Chess' filtering of superfluous depth through lack of variety in its design, to push a more pristine strategic depth to the forefront."

You're welcome. My response:

Me: "The fact that the strategic depth is more refined does not make this qualifiably "Better", only, "Different".

Me: "Checkmate".


-Syn
I don't know what direction you're going on this tangent. You're missing the point of the illustrations. I wasn't comparing the depth of chess and smash, nor trying to turn one into the other. I was merely trying to illustrate a few points in a way that could be better understood.
 

crazygoose

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
25
Jesus CHRIST. I was told that this board had gone up in flames of butthurt, but I had no idea that it was this bad.

Are you people honestly that surprised that items finally came into tournament play? Sh*t, I'm surprised it hadn't happened long before this when Melee was the current game. And now you're talking about boycotting Evo? Thats a god ****ed laugh riot right there. You tourneyf@gs are supposed to be such hot sh*t, but you're going to tuck your tails between your legs and run when items factor into things?

You people are a joke. I'd tell you to cry moar, but I don't think that would be possible with half of you drowning in tears already. This crap, this BOARD, is the reason no one takes Smashers seriously. You get a chance to throw down at Evo, and you ***** and moan. Awesome.
 

Samochan

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,450
Location
I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
But DDD's finals smash isn't nearly as effective as most others are and you can avoid a lot of it. If DDD is farming them you can only mean DDD will use them and thus we only have to decide if his final smash will be broken. His final smash doesn't seem to be as broken as you claim now and if he farms a smash ball but I get it I can use it myself. Suddenly I am use his farming technique against himself.
You sooooo totally missed the joke Ryuker. >_>

And Crazygoose...

"Those who know what they're talking about and can have intelligent discussions talk,
Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards."
- Yuna, 2008
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Jesus CHRIST. I was told that this board had gone up in flames of butthurt, but I had no idea that it was this bad.

Are you people honestly that surprised that items finally came into tournament play? Sh*t, I'm surprised it hadn't happened long before this when Melee was the current game. And now you're talking about boycotting Evo? Thats a god ****ed laugh riot right there. You tourneyf@gs are supposed to be such hot sh*t, but you're going to tuck your tails between your legs and run when items factor into things?

You people are a joke. I'd tell you to cry moar, but I don't think that would be possible with half of you drowning in tears already. This crap, this BOARD, is the reason no one takes Smashers seriously. You get a chance to throw down at Evo, and you ***** and moan. Awesome.
I'll be nice to you. One more post like that and you're gone. You have nothing but misinformation, as well as swearing, censor dodging, and general idiocy. But I'll let you stay if you don't do it again.
 

polarity

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
84
Indeed, COUM. If your points are continually "Why do you care?" and "Then just don't go" then why are you bothering to debate anything in the first place?
Because people seem to think Evo owes them something.

I'm done anyway.
 
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