The DK Match Up Thread.

[SuSa]

Not if you do it right.

He did it all 3 stocks, and I was trying everything.

 

[Luigi player]

Well he can't ever fsmash DK after the dthrow if you hold shield (I only used dthrow until about 180 % (so it was max-stale) and at the last tries I tried to fsmash DK but it never worked (I even buffered it). It was always a powershield. So either you did something wrong, or it wasn't as much staled.. Did he use the grab attack sometimes?

 

[SuSa]

I don't remember if he pummeled or not.

All I know is I couldn't avoid it. -_-

 

[daisho]

Wario has setups from 0-15% into his grab.

So it's more like "don't get hit"

K fine... don't get hit.

Just camp.

Seriously just camp with your back towards him, every once in a while throw out a jump or something.

 

[Ripple]

Ripple seemingly has something to get out of it. Maybe Big O could help testing it and finding it out (or maybe he knows it aleady and doesn't want to tell us like Ripple ).

Why don't you tell us? Doesn't it work if the enemy knows about it? If that's the case it wouldn't really help anyway ._.

Fine, I will. its about time people know anyway, at least the people who play DK. what wario is going to check this anyway?

Buffer dash> Pivot SA punch

you have 1 frame to do it

 

[SuSa]

So, assuming that is legit (I'll have to test that....) you need a fully charged punch?

 

[Ripple]

So, assuming that is legit (I'll have to test that....) you need a fully charged punch?

that's correct. must be fully charged. Big O said he test it with frame data. we only have 1 frame to do it.

oh but it only works while the throw is unstale or from 0-22% or something like that

 

[SuSa]

The CG starts at 30%, so 0-22% doesn't matter. <_<

 

[Donkey Bong]

so if buffering a dash to a pivoted SA punch works, how come buffering a dash to a jump wont work?

iirc you can jump anytime during the initial dash animation

 

[SuSa]

Punch moves your hitbox back. Jumping takes 5-11 frames before you even move

 

[Ripple]

The CG starts at 30%, so 0-22% doesn't matter. <_<

then why can't I escape from 0-30?

 

[SuSa]

Because it works at 0-30%, but won't go to 180% if they start it that early.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Why not? That doesn't make any sense. There is a limit to the amount a move diminishes.

 

[Luigi player]

Why not? That doesn't make any sense. There is a limit to the amount a move diminishes.

Yeah, if Wario starts at 30 % after using dthrow 9 times DK will have 74 %.
If he starts at 0 % it's probably 44 %. Can DK come out during 40 %-74 % if it's max stale or what?

So you have to do it after the first dthrow? That sucks you're not allowed to use your punch during the match (unless you grab release Wario) and the Wario can trick you to use it... he can spot dodge (or powershield) your punch and then he grabs you and you're helpless... so it's maybe a 50:50 chance if the enemy knows about it >.<

 

[SuSa]

Pikachu has to start his 108% chaingrab using dthrow on Snake starting at 19-21% (IIRC)

I don't know the exact reasoning behind it, but it's the knockback growth coupled with stale moves and blah blah blah... so meh.

All I know is CPU said not to even use dthrow until DK was around 28-34%

 

[Big O]

SuSa you escape the cg at around 100% by double jumping. It doesn't really matter when they start it so long as it is fully stale by 100%. If they start at 90% or higher you can double jump out of it from the beginning.

 

[SuSa]

I will regurgitate.

I was trying everything.

Buffering a shield, buffering a jump, mashing like a mad man, yelling at him.

If I ever see you around and CPU's there, I'll have him do it to you so you can show me how it's done, because apparently I suck at escaping things.

(PS: Snake has a 1 frame window it seems to escape Falco's CG at about 30% rather then 40% by pulling a grenade. It can't be buffered though :/)

 

[Ripple]

I will regurgitate.

I was trying everything.

Buffering a shield, buffering a jump, mashing like a mad man, yelling at him.

LOL, I've tried doing that to lain

 

[ook]

Have you tried saying "Grab........... grab.......... grab......... grab...... grab..... grab... grab" gradually getting faster/slower?

 

[PhantomX]

what wario is going to check this anyway?

Lol.

Our CG that starts from 0-22 goes to about 110 before you can double jump out (and if you don't during that one grab window it will go to about 130) and is then escapable, the buffered one goes from 30 - 180 and is inescapable. We don't have a guaranteed Fsmash out of it though, afaik (though fthrow works well enough). It always gets powershielded from my experience.

Staleness affects all the CGs though, so keep an eye out. If the Wario is smart he won't be using dthrow at all outside of CGing though.

 

[SuSa]

Fsmash was working on me. I couldn't get out at all.....

And glad I was right on the 30-180 thing

 

[Big O]

It definitely doesn't go from 30-180. I just tried it starting at several different %'s including the 28-34% range SuSa mentioned and DK can double jump out at ~100%. Even when he buffers the cg (which is how Wario would be doing it anyway) the double jump comes fast enough to escape.

 

[SuSa]

I've got to say.

You're doing it wrong.

Again, wait til CPU or Fiction does it to you. Then you'll understand.

(Where you doing it in training mode by any chance?)

 

[Big O]

Nah I was doing it in vs mode. The only reason DK gets cg'd so long is because of stale moves and that he is forced to land which adds 5 frames of landing lag. Wario never gets more than 8 frames of advantage from the Dthrow (which is why Fsmash is always powershielded) and if DK doesn't land that drops to a 3 frame advantage maximum. I can't see how I could possibly have messed up. All you have to do is verify whether or not he can DJ before landing to see if he can escape. I also checked to see if DK would get grabbed anyway despite the DJ and it didn't happen when I buffered the grab with Wario.

 

[PhantomX]

If you don't escape during the tiny window to DJ (I think a few frames during 2-3 grabs or something), the CG continues on for whatever reason (from my experience), lol.

Also, DK is the only character we DON'T have to buffer the CG on.

 

[Big O]

That's probably why people think it lasts so long. Also if you don't buffer it, don't you have a chance of giving them enough time to roll away?

 

[PhantomX]

Nah, for whatever reason, DK is the only character that can't get away even if you don't buffer the turnaround > grab. It probably has to do with however many frames it takes him to rehit the ground.

 

[Ripple]

I'm so confused.....Brawl makes absolutely no sense. maybe the games runs differently while running normally as opposed to big o's debug mode

 

[Big O]

They do run a little bit differently but I tried all of it out in vs mode. I know for sure that DK escapes at ~100% by double jumping. It is just that if you mess up you can't double jump out of it until like 130% or something like that. Wario's Dthrow at very certain%'s knocks you just high enough for the stun to wear off before landing. Most of the time the stun lasts long enough to force landings. DK is just has the perfect storm of gravity, weight, and size for the angle/knockback of Wario's Dthrow to get grabbed again almost indefinitely.

 

[daisho]

So if you use up b with perfect timing then they would have 1 frame to turn around and grab you, right?

Because the throw gives them 3 frames and up bs hitbox comes out at 4 and the grab comes out at 6.

 

[Ripple]

sorry for the lack of update so far, wifi is down at places on campus so I need to go somewhere I can get on the internet for about 10min.

TL sonic and falco are all written but they are on my laptop so expect them all up around 5ish, who would you like to move on to now? Yoshi? ZSS? needs to be someone in low tier probably

 

[blakinola]

I can attest to the homosexuality of the matchup. It's not very hard to grab DK : (

 

[daisho]

sorry for the lack of update so far, wifi is down at places on campus so I need to go somewhere I can get on the internet for about 10min.

TL sonic and falco are all written but they are on my laptop so expect them all up around 5ish, who would you like to move on to now? Yoshi? ZSS? needs to be someone in low tier probably

May as well do Yoshi.

Yoshi is a dinasaur.

He has eggs and likes to throw them at you. They are annoying but if you learn to Powershield then while on the ground you should be fine. The problem arises when you are approaching from the air. Then he can toss them at you and you have to stop your approach. He can ledgestall with them and throw them pretty far. Just PS them.

He is mario's pet.

He has this thing called a pivot grab. Basically when you approach him he just runs away and throws his tongue at you. If you aren't paying attention then you will get grabbed every time.

Sometimes Yoshi is a race and sometimes one of a kind.

Once he grabs you he has nothing too special. He can do the grab release to regrab thing but it isn't guaranteed (right?). At the edge of the stage he can go for a spike but you can avoid that pretty easily if you know it is coming.

Yoshis give birth to each other in eggs. It is asexual reproduction and there are no female or male yoshis, just yoshis.

Between eggs and pivot grab there is really no way to approach yoshi if he knows what is coming. So mix stuff up and try to never give him stage control.

Yoshis can also swallow any creature and put it in an egg. They come out as what they were before, not as a yoshi.

He doesn't have so much trouble killing you but it isn't easy. His smashes are kind of easy to see coming and if you try you can avoid u air. Don't try to gimp him cause he gets armor on his second jump. He can also attack out of it. Watch out for that and if you can hit him off after the DJ then he is screwed.

He is also alot heavier than he seems and isn't that easy to KO.

He has no OoS options.

If he jabs he will probably jab a couple of more times for good measure and with almost no lag so don't bother trying to punish it.

Anything else I missed?
We can make this the writeup i'll just keep updating it with new info.
BTW 60-40 Yoshi.

 

[smashkng]

May as well do Yoshi.

Yoshi is a dinasaur.

He has eggs and likes to throw them at you. They are annoying but if you learn to Powershield then while on the ground you should be fine. The problem arises when you are approaching from the air. Then he can toss them at you and you have to stop your approach. He can ledgestall with them and throw them pretty far. Just PS them.

He is mario's pet.

He has this thing called a pivot grab. Basically when you approach him he just runs away and throws his tongue at you. If you aren't paying attention then you will get grabbed every time.

Sometimes Yoshi is a race and sometimes one of a kind.

Once he grabs you he has nothing too special. He can do the grab release to regrab thing but it isn't guaranteed (right?). At the edge of the stage he can go for a spike but you can avoid that pretty easily if you know it is coming.

Yoshis give birth to each other in eggs. It is asexual reproduction and there are no female or male yoshis, just yoshis.

Between eggs and pivot grab there is really no way to approach yoshi if he knows what is coming. So mix stuff up and try to never give him stage control.

Yoshis can also swallow any creature and put it in an egg. They come out as what they were before, not as a yoshi.

He doesn't have so much trouble killing you but it isn't easy. His smashes are kind of easy to see coming and if you try you can avoid u air. Don't try to gimp him cause he gets armor on his second jump. He can also attack out of it. Watch out for that and if you can hit him off after the DJ then he is screwed.

He is also alot heavier than he seems and isn't that easy to KO.

He has no OoS options.

If he jabs he will probably jab a couple of more times for good measure and with almost no lag so don't bother trying to punish it.

Anything else I missed?

We can make this the writeup i'll just keep updating it with new info.

BTW 60-40 Yoshi.

Yoshi's jump hasn't infinite Super Armor like other things. At certain time he can get hit out of jump (but with reduced knockback), spiking him if you know it is going to break the SA, and then he has his awful up b left with very little height. So hitting him out of the jump can be lethal to Yoshi. With footstools you can break the SA at any percent, hurting Yoshi.

I can't believe it's 60/40 Yoshi. He is very weak and will be forced to rack a ton of damage to kill DK.

 

[daisho]

Yoshi's jump hasn't infinite Super Armor like other things. At certain time he can get hit out of jump (but with reduced knockback), spiking him if you know it is going to break the SA, and then he has his awful up b left with very little height. So hitting him out of the jump can be lethal to Yoshi. With footstools you can break the SA at any percent, hurting Yoshi.

I can't believe it's 60/40 Yoshi. He is very weak and will be forced to rack a ton of damage to kill DK.

Ya try to spike him, he'll up air you. I did mention that if you can knock him out of it then it's bad for him but don't really go out and try to gimp because you'll end up getting hit.

He is not very weak. His up air kills about 140-150 fresh. His smashes kill at decent percents and he can spike.

He has no problem racking up damage. He can basically combo you with backair tilts and the occasional nair.

 

[ook]

Yeah I've always suspected this was Yoshi's advantage.

Between eggs and pivot grab there is really no way to approach yoshi if he knows what is coming. So mix stuff up and try to never give him stage control.

He has no problem racking up damage. He can basically combo you with backair tilts and the occasional nair.

For pretty much these reasons alone. ^

And the fact that his jump has heavy armor... you really can't edgeguard him at low/middle percents (which is usually a big part of DK's game)

I dunno... from the yoshi's I've seen, they don't seem do very well against other people, but then when I play them with DK, it's really close and feels like they should have won (or they DO win).

Plus the invincible roflcopter up-b doesn't work against the eggs and the eggs are giant, slow-moving, travel in an arc, exploding, and you can't cancel them out with bair or even catch them. If you stay on the ground and shield, he can just grab you or do or one of his long-lasting aerials (bair, dair, nair...) It's just hell for DK....


40/60 campy yoshi



if he tries the grab-release chain you can probably side-b him out of it if he messes up. Then he won't try it anymore. :D

 

[Cyphus]

i've played furbs and bwett(best yoshi?), and i'm pretty confident my DK would take both in a tourney set. DK is stronger, heavier, and better reach (all obvious). Eggs and pivot grab are the **** online, but if thats effective, downB to punish. The grab release chaingrab does very little percent if you mash it across the stage, and DK should be able to avoid any aerial followup off the edge and make it back (yoshi can't edgeguard DK)
I dont find either of those yoshi's incorporate alot of spam or pivot grabs into their games. Bwett does alot of DJC EggLays, B.airs, Jabs, but i Yoshi doesn't really have a reliable way of KOing DK. His best KO option is a high UpAir at like 120% or something. DK can edgeguard yoshi at least a little better than most characters can, and D.smash becomes a big problem for yoshi at higher percent.
i would think DK55/45Yoshi

 

[daisho]

i've played furbs and bwett(best yoshi?), and i'm pretty confident my DK would take both in a tourney set. DK is stronger, heavier, and better reach (all obvious). Eggs and pivot grab are the **** online, but if thats effective, downB to punish. The grab release chaingrab does very little percent if you mash it across the stage, and DK should be able to avoid any aerial followup off the edge and make it back (yoshi can't edgeguard DK)
I dont find either of those yoshi's incorporate alot of spam or pivot grabs into their games. Bwett does alot of DJC EggLays, B.airs, Jabs, but i Yoshi doesn't really have a reliable way of KOing DK. His best KO option is a high UpAir at like 120% or something. DK can edgeguard yoshi at least a little better than most characters can, and D.smash becomes a big problem for yoshi at higher percent.
i would think DK55/45Yoshi

Cyphus arguing... for DK :O Truly a wondrous day.

How do we approach?

And I have never played a Yoshi offline but tried not to incorporate that too much on my analysis.

 

[crifer]

I only have online mu experience against yoshi´s...
but it´s terrible... I have a clan mate and he plays yoshi really good....
Ever tried to sheild a egg and get instantly grabed? it´s insane.
u ahve to air dodge it or power sheild it, and air dodge is hihgly punishable of bair, nair or dair.

It´s always like he is getting me to 150% and then I rack up 100%,
then hekills me, then I kill him....

I thin yoshi has way too many options and combo abilities on us...

55:45/60:40 for yoshi imo

 

[Ripple]

yoshi's have it as their disadvantage. 45-55

I bet its even