The Delux Sunshine Combo * UPDATE WITH VIDEO AND CHARACTER LIST*

[Conviction]

So here's the deal, most of foxes moves would combo together if they didn't have as much knockback, I think aerial shines would combo in nair and dair if there was not as much knockback.
Well, so far I see that when some one is shielding knockback of moves decrease greatly or not-existance(I think everyone else sees that too). I've testing these things first to make sure it was valid, low % Nair to Jab is a combo cause there is low knockback, and if your doing the JJC correctly you should be getting a true combo with 2 hits, but thought that too obvious an smart opponet would never let you SH that whole lenght so you can use the Nair correctly for it combo in jab while they are shielding.

So I needed something that would cancel my aerial momentum, AND shine does that and is a fast move comes out on frame 3 (thank you Zhamy).

So anyways I thought "hmm jump shine cancel then Nair", good news for people not named king dedede or tether grabbers can't grab you when you shine>Nair thier shield cause it pushes them too far back. You can just stop there and do whatever you want cause your safe on shield but you can add on to this.

Strange as this seems fox's jab has more range than his Nair (here comes the good stuff) you can jab there shield when you land as that would have been a true combo at percents ranging from 0-50%(not sure it's to 50 but sure it's to 30%) so they can't grab between the Nair and Jab either, and JJC is a two hit combo as I metioned before so that would mean another free hit on thier shield, but you would think that you got back into grabbing range, well during all of this they're sliding back slowing in thier shield.

This is where I may need some help on cause I mean getting so close th breaking the shield but I can't get to it. Maybe something that can shield poke would be great. But by looking at it I see dtilt gets under the shield after the JJC. Doing a double JJC is hard cause you might get back in grab range and if you aren't that means you either perfectly/close to perfectly spaced the Shine>Nair>JJC wbut when you do that you can Ftilt and there you go a broken shield free charge smash, but I think the Ftilt might be too risky. I'm having a hard time doing a true pivot Utilt out of JJC so if anyone can do that you would break the shield too and that seems a whole lot safer.

Well there you have it if anyone would like to help or expand on this idea, just post here or PM/VM me. :bigthumbu


UPDATE: THE VIDEO IS FINALLY HERE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZZsWsIxjbE

List of characters easy to destory with this technique no spacing needed:
Lucas,Link,Captian Falcon,,Zero Suit Samus, Samus,Ivysaur,Yoshi, Toon Link,Olimar,Zelda

List of Character who are doable but needs spacing (harder):
King Dedede,DK,Diddy,Wolf,Shiek,Double ICs,R.O.B,MK,Falco,Fox,Charizard,Jiggly,Marth,Peach

List of Character who are doable but needs spacing (easier):
Mario,Pikachu,Single Ice Climber,Bowser,Ganon,Kirby,Squirtle,Lucario,Ike,Ness,Game and Watch,Snake,Sonic

Characters who slide too **** far:
Luigi

List of Character who may be subject to my new tech that's being made (Delux Double Sunshine Finsher) lol name XD:
Mario,Pikachu,Single Ice Climber,Bowser,Ganon,Kirby,Squirtle,Lucario,Ike,Ness,Game and Watch,Snake,Sonic,King Dedede,DK,Diddy,Wolf,Shiek,Double ICs,R.O.B,MK,Falco,Fox,Charizard,Jiggly,Marth,Lucas,Link,Captian Falcon,,Zero Suit Samus, Samus,Ivysaur,Yoshi, Toon Link,Olimar,Zelda,Peach


Note:Size of a character in some cases are the most important part of the Delux Sunshine Combo.

 

[Conviction]

Things to look out for:

GnW's Up-b
UP B
• 8 startup (he jumps on 9)
• 5 frames of complete invincibility (frames 9 - 13)

*Fun fact: G&W is only invincible while his mouth is open. Invincibility ends when his mouth closes; about when the top of his body is touching the halfway point of his jump)

*Note that this move has one heck of a hitbox regardless of invincibility. It actually clanks with super sonic. It may render some moves useless against G&W. Moves like Ike's dair will still hit you obviously.

That's nothing to really worry about

Using Mario's Up-B Offensively:

Mario's Up-B comes out frame 3, and has invul frames on startup. Frame 3 is very fast, same frame Snake's Jab comes out on, and the invul frames helps you at having a shot at blocking out other fast attacks and counterattacking.

More annoying than GnW but still easy to avoid like I said if you space correctly, the Up-b should just fly over you

Sonic Up-B
Sonic's ultimate recovery move. A springboard appears out of nowhere, and launches Sonic high enough to make G&W jealous. Sonic can attack/dodge shortly afterwards, preventing him from being a sitting duck. If used on the ground, the springboard remains for a short period of time or until you use the move again. There are also invincibility frames shortly after Sonic starts to move up, but not before he leaves the spring. Any opponents that lands on it will be launched in a similar fashion. It can be used to set traps, as you can set one, let the opponent land on it, then follow them into the air with a new Up B, and either uair, bair, fair, or whatever. Not a set combo, by any means, but still an option. This is very situational.

This is will not pose a big problem either he will get hit or put himself in a bad position, but still useful to remember.

Marth's Up-b
Dolphin Slash
Invincible frames: 1-5
Hit: 5-11
Landing Lag: 34
Shield Stun: 13

The most annoying one that probably most cause a problem! My solution is to Jab then spotdodge hoping he DS's so he is in a bad position.

 

[Zhamy]

Shine hits on Frame 3.

 

[Conviction]

Shine hits on Frame 3.

Thanks the makes things even better.

 

[Zhamy]

Also, why JC Shine?

[10.05] Jump Canceled Shine
This is not a true Jump Cancel (JC) like the JC usmash/ Up-B, but has a similar effect. Since the shine stops vertical movement, if you shine the frame you leave the ground, you'll cancel all the movement of your jump and shine in a way that when by the time it's over, you're back on the ground. The best method for doing this is to slide your thumb from y to b while holding down. You MUST shine exactly 5 frames after you jump for this to work properly. What does this do for you? It allows you to do a shine when you could jump, but otherwise not shine (i.e. out of shield or the startup of a dash). Frankly, this sucks out of shield because it takes 8 frames to hit (whereas a shieldgrab is only 6); leaving one option for it: out of the initial part of a dash. That being said, it's not that usefull, since it's only good for shining out of the startup frames of a dash. THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY FASTER THAN A NORMAL GROUND SHINE. The normal ground shine hits on frame 3 with 17 frames of lag; the JC shine hits on frame 8 with 17 frames of lag.

 

[Conviction]

cause how do you shine on the ground then Nair?

EDIT: I should just get a vid up.

 

[Zhamy]

I'd have to get frame data for getting airborne and double jumping, but

Shine->Jump->Instant Nair

Might be faster than

Jump->Shine->Double Jump->Nair

Not sure, though.

 

[Conviction]

I'd have to get frame data for getting airborne and double jumping, but

Shine->Jump->Instant Nair

Might be faster than

Jump->Shine->Double Jump->Nair

Not sure, though.

Hmm I wasn't thinking like you but this might work too. wait till the vid comes.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think Iblis is just talking about canceling your jump momentum with shine...

We've been using this a lot for turnaround shine Bairs (which are great spacers), so Nair makes a bit of sense here, too.

Basically, Jump to about head height, shine to cancel your jumping momentum, Nair fall down, hitting a shield (with good spacing, of course), to JJC to something else, correct?

 

[Conviction]

I think Iblis is just talking about canceling your jump momentum with shine...

We've been using this a lot for turnaround shine Bairs (which are great spacers), so Nair makes a bit of sense here, too.

Basically, Jump to about head height, shine to cancel your jumping momentum, Nair fall down, hitting a shield (with good spacing, of course), to JJC to something else, correct?

Well it doesn't have to be head height I guess that's the safest way, I just at the height where I can buffer and an Nair and land around the same frame the Nair hitbox comes out, then JJC>Dtilt goes under the shield, and if you can get another JJC then Ftilt afterwards you broke thier shield. I gotten it off in a real match. Today I'm gonna try getting a recording of it being used in a real match.

 

[soul ark]

This is all very confusing but i see where your getting at im not sure how far this will propel fox but it looks good at least it might be the biggest mix up since the SHAD (though its hardly used in practical play next to the jab cancel) lets see where this takes fox... ill wait for the vid to get a better understanding

 

[Jenkins]

sheild pressure with a spaced SH fair. its kinda unpunishable if you drift backwards, and you can jab upon landing if you want

im talking about the Fair for the taller chars

 

[Fenrir VII]

Oh yeah, Fair and even Bair are great for taller chars, but Fox is kinda lacking in zoning tools that beat shorties... so this kind of thing is needed...

 

[moogle]

I'm programmed to wait and fsmash a missed grab after a spaced nair on the front of their shield.... or dash->usmash if they're in killing percent. Almost everyone tries to shield grab the nair. >_< I guess jabjab can lead to other good things after a spaced nair.

Also it's worth knowing that Zelda and the tether grabbers (Olimar, Toon Link, Link, ZSS, Samus, Yoshi, Lucas, Ivysaur) cannot shield grab a nair if you buffer a jab afterward (assuming you're close enough to jab).

edit: Another thing I remembered.... if you're on Lylat or another stage with some slightly slanted ground... if you land a nair on slanted ground, you'll slide down the slope a little upon landing, which could be enough to avoid a shield grab (or it could push you so far that it messes up your own follow ups). I don't know if this is useful at all in practice, but someone might want to explore it.

 

[Conviction]

I'm programmed to wait and fsmash a missed grab after a spaced nair on the front of their shield.... or dash->usmash if they're in killing percent. Almost everyone tries to shield grab the nair. >_< I guess jabjab can lead to other good things after a spaced nair.

Also it's worth knowing that Zelda and the tether grabbers (Olimar, Toon Link, Link, ZSS, Samus, Yoshi, Lucas, Ivysaur) cannot shield grab a nair if you buffer a jab afterward (assuming you're close enough to jab).

edit: Another thing I remembered.... if you're on Lylat or another stage with some slightly slanted ground... if you land a nair on slanted ground, you'll slide down the slope a little upon landing, which could be enough to avoid a shield grab (or it could push you so far that it messes up your own follow ups). I don't know if this is useful at all in practice, but someone might want to explore it.

^ Speaks the truth. Yes usually you can follow a spaced a Nair with a buffer jab (jab has more range than Nair) Nair>Jab is a true combo.

 

[Lightning93]

I'm really hope this will be put to good use against Olimars. It sounds like a safe enough approach in comparison to what we usually have.

 

[PowaStar]

Ok I'm trying to picture this but It's looking blurry to me.. so your saying:

SH (Up to your preferred height)> Shine>A spaced SHFF Nair? or A spaced Nair?> Buffered JJC setup

Is that right?

 

[Lightning93]

Pretty much, try it for yourself for a clearer view XD.

 

[Conviction]

Ok I'm trying to picture this but It's looking blurry to me.. so your saying:

SH (Up to your preferred height)> Shine>A spaced SHFF Nair? or A spaced Nair?> Buffered JJC setup

Is that right?

No

Pretty much, try it for yourself for a clearer view XD.

No

Gah space your shine so it hits the opponets shield....(it pushes the character back best seen on luigi)....then Nair (it becomes spaced because of the Shine shield push) and this push them back more which leaves you out of grabbing reach but in reach of your Jab because it has more range than your Nair (jab still pushes character in shield back)..... so just JJC>Dtilt and you have gotten past a shield grabber, or if you're feeling lucky/cocky do JJC>JJC>Ftilt and you broke the opponets shield.... only if luffy had a recording device...cause I pulled it off on him several times on him when I went to his house today inculding the still in testing shine>buffered DJ> Buffered shine>Nair> then follow up. Mostly preferably Jab>Ftilt/Dtilt or JJC>Ftilt>Dtilt. More coming soon.........

 

[Jenkins]

and this push them back more which leaves you out of grabbing reach but in reach of your Jab because it has more range than your Nair (jab still pushes character in shield back)..... [/COLOR]

whoa whoa whoa whoa since when does fox's jab have more reach than other chars grabs?

think about ittttt

 

[Conviction]

whoa whoa whoa whoa since when does fox's jab have more reach than other chars grabs?
Pika, ICs, CF....
think about ittttt

You have a point but listen if Fox's jab has more range than his Nair.... why wouldn't a spaced a Nair be Shield grabbed everytime?

EDIT: image if that was the case then Jenkins I said you can stop after the Nair
2) You missed where I metioned it and Moogle posted if you buffer a jab after a Nair the person can't grab you cause Nair>Jab/JJC is a true combo

 

[PowaStar]

Oh ok now I see what your saying I'll go test this out whenever I have some friendlies with my friends.

 

[Lightning93]

Oops, yeah I forgot to mention the shine has to hit the shield. I kind of assumed when you were writing those actions after the other like in a combo "Shine>Nair" etc. that you would be hitting your opponent.

 

[Pierce7d]

I can't see this doing enough damage to break a shield, but it's lovely for shield pressure. I recommend experimenting with a cross-up. You should B-reverse the initial Shine, rather than RAR, to save yourself a few frames. Cross-ups eliminate the possibility of shield grabbing all together, and it's MUCH harder to punish.

 

[Lightning93]

I'm pretty sure there are ways you can break a shield with this, but it requires good placing and timing and a lil' mental hitstun from your opponent.

However, crossing-up does sound like a great idea to avoid being punished, but I think the whole point of the SunShine Combo is to pressure and allow yourself in for some close combat that would otherwise be really hard to achieve.

 

[Conviction]

I can't see this doing enough damage to break a shield, but it's lovely for shield pressure. I recommend experimenting with a cross-up. You should B-reverse the initial Shine, rather than RAR, to save yourself a few frames. Cross-ups eliminate the possibility of shield grabbing all together, and it's MUCH harder to punish.

It does break a shield not the JJC>Dtilt runoff the dtilt just runs under their shield and you got some damage of your opponet when they were shielding, the JJC>JJC>Ftilt is the shield breaker runoff, but like light said it does require a lil mental hitstun from your opponet. You must show me this cross-up (is it just shine>nair>buffer jab/JJC then stop so you are for surely not gonna get grabbed?) you speak of.

I'm pretty sure there are ways you can break a shield with this, but it requires good placing and timing and a lil' mental hitstun from your opponent.

However, crossing-up does sound like a great idea to avoid being punished, but I think the whole point of the SunShine Combo is to pressure and allow yourself in for some close combat that would otherwise be really hard to achieve.

Hey Light your doing it wrong don't make me ban you XD(I'll Scotu/Ankoku on you). It's Delux Sunshine Combo . There. :bigthumbu

 

[Jenkins]

Nair>Jab/JJC is a true combo

isnt that a true combo for someone who DOESN'T have their sheild up?

 

[Conviction]

isnt that a true combo for someone who DOESN'T have their sheild up?

Both. The shield stun lasts long enough to pull out a jab/JJC trust me. (or Moogle)

EDIT: See yea you won't get the jab in if your Nair at the top of your SH or the beginning, you have to do it towards the end, I stumbled over the Delux Sunshine Combo combo cause I thought it took to long for the end of the SH to Nair, so I shined to cancel the momentum at a low height so the Nair can come out soon as you are about to land, I was doing this on a samus at the time, and I accidentally hit her shield with the shine then Nair'd (she couldn't grab inbetween it and both moves made her slide back a good little distance) so I wondered if I jab will anyone be able to grab still, and I remembered they couldn't so I found this awsome shield pressure tech. (Just come on wifi so I can show you the general idea of this.)

 

[moogle]

for clarification

Zelda and tether grabbers:
Fox nairs their shield (spacing irrelevant), if they attempt a shieldgrab, a jab should hit them before their grab comes out. This is because these characters' standing grabs take at least 11 frames to come out.

Every other character (except maybe Dedede):
Fox nairs their shield (properly spaced), if they attempt a shieldgrab, the grab will miss, and then Fox's jab should hit. This is because Fox is landing out of range of their shieldgrab.



and umm... nair on the shield doesn't combo to anything... it's only if they try to shieldgrab nair, that's when the opponent can get into trouble

but in theory, Fox should be able to do spaced nair -> bait shieldgrab -> jab vs any character except maybe King Dedede.

 

[Toronto Joe]

Zeldas grab comes out on frame 16 i think..........thats just lol

 

[Conviction]

for clarification

Zelda and tether grabbers:
Fox nairs their shield (spacing irrelevant), if they attempt a shieldgrab, a jab should hit them before their grab comes out. This is because these characters' standing grabs take at least 11 frames to come out.

Every other character (except maybe Dedede):
Fox nairs their shield (properly spaced), if they attempt a shieldgrab, the grab will miss, and then Fox's jab should hit. This is because Fox is landing out of range of their shieldgrab.



and umm... nair on the shield doesn't combo to anything... it's only if they try to shieldgrab nair, that's when the opponent can get into trouble

but in theory, Fox should be able to do spaced nair -> bait shieldgrab -> jab vs any character except maybe King Dedede.

Gah I really need to ger a vid of it in good use so I can so you guys what I mean, Nair>Jab works on shield, well it seems until I get that vid up no one is gonna believe till then.

 

[Virgman]

Gah I really need to ger a vid of it in good use so I can so you guys what I mean, Nair>Jab works on shield, well it seems until I get that vid up no one is gonna believe till then.

When are you planning on getting a vid up?

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Iblis seriously get a vid up

 

[Conviction]

Trying my best to get it upload >.> youtube is gaying me.

 

[Conviction]

Bumped cause youtube decided to stop being gay and is uploading my vid.

Yea yea double post but major time difference

 

[Jenkins]

i wanna see dat vid.

 

[Conviction]

1 hour till it uploads >.> youtube is taking forever. I better not do like before and error when it's about to finish.

 

[Jenkins]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr i want it NAO

 

[Conviction]

Due to my video being like 10:45 sec it was too long and was removed >.> so now I have recorded a shorter version and now uploading it. Youtube >.>

 

[Toronto Joe]

nice

10char