yeah. so this doesnt really work D:
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The Delux Sunshine Combo * UPDATE WITH VIDEO AND CHARACTER LIST*
- Thread starter Conviction
- Start date
Conviction
Human Nature
Yes long time ago but considering the cross-up options... its usefulness increases and Im startin to use it more in tournies.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
How so Iblis? Can you go into more detail on how to include the DSSC into Fox's current metagame?
Conviction
Human Nature
I'm starting to find more often that as you get people to kill precent they do shield more often expecting more of an attack than say a grab of the sort, and this would be a good time to use it,but after re-reading through here I do think it should be a cross-up to be used on the back of a shield....well unless they are Zelda or a tethergrabber. As I think Pierce said before it cuts down on their options to do, and also Fox has an answer spotdodges, dodge rolls, and OSS Jumps.
Tanman2333
Smash Cadet
I only see foxes use Upsmash to kill which is sad, but thats his only good killing move 
Conviction
Human Nature
>.> Fox kill moves:
Usmash
Dsmash
Bair
Uair
Fair (off the top)
Usmash
Dsmash
Bair
Uair
Fair (off the top)
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Don't forget Fsmash.
Also drill, shine, and nair can be included for gimps.
Also drill, shine, and nair can be included for gimps.
Conviction
Human Nature
Yea those too >.< sorry Light. I'm a little off after getting ***** in Melee Teams at the place >.>
But seriously this guy doesn't know what he is talking about I mean most of these post.... well in the Fox Boards at least.....
@Tan Quick advice: Don't say at much and lurk or ask questions beause most of what you are sayin is incorrect and is making you look stupid... and you don't want that. Also hang around the Social to get used to us and for us to get used to you. Overall though your post would be valid if we were still back in summer of '08 and I'm pretty sure 2 years have past XD soooo don't make yourself sound/look stupid.
But seriously this guy doesn't know what he is talking about I mean most of these post.... well in the Fox Boards at least.....
@Tan Quick advice: Don't say at much and lurk or ask questions beause most of what you are sayin is incorrect and is making you look stupid... and you don't want that. Also hang around the Social to get used to us and for us to get used to you. Overall though your post would be valid if we were still back in summer of '08 and I'm pretty sure 2 years have past XD soooo don't make yourself sound/look stupid.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
To be fair, he did say good.
And honestly, aside from D-smash because I think that's a good kill move too, I have to agree with him. If by good you're talking about it can kill, kill early, and can reliably connect, then U-smash and D-smash are probably the only two good kill moves Fox has.
U-smash out of a Dash covers a lot of space, so when somebody's in lag in a good distance away from you, you can still kill them. It kills really early as well, and vertical kill moves are in general harder to D-smash covers both directions, is quick, can hit through a weakened shield, and in general gives bad DI unless your opponent has really good reflexes or you're using it predictably. They're sent low horizontally, meaning you can edgeguard from there. Near a ledge it kills, and characters with bad recoveries will just die anyway.
B-air hitbox is small and hard to connect with, and it isn't that fast either, so it can be shielded. Sends them horizontally well, but in all the instances I can think of where B-air would reliably connect (which aren't many), something else would work as well. U-air has the same problem, it can kill, but it's slow, has a small hitbox, and can be potentially SDId out of. F-air should like never kill, because SDI ***** it. F-smash is unreliable and is only really good if you predicted a spotdodge or roll, in which case dashing U-smash is still a viable option. I rarely ever see drill, N-air, or shine gimp adequate or better players, and gimp=\=kill move anyway.
Anwyay, back to the Delux Sunshine Combo applications; I still stand by what I said earlier. This is good as a cross-up. I wouldn't attempt it at the front of someone's shield because of the like 21 frames of space between the shine and the N-air (not including shieldstun). Some OoS options will get out of that, such as MK's shuttle loop or N-air, Marth's upB (but not worth it if you aren't at high enough percents to be knocked back far enough), Diddy's B-air or glide toss, etc.
If they're pressured or don't have good OoS options, this is good and something to consider. However, I'd never use it for the intent of actually trying to break a shield--that might happen but I'm not going to rely on my opponent being that bad. If all else fails, they can just take a hit of the jab or N-air, and whatever attacks that follow. If they try to spotdodge or roll-away, dash U-smash says hi.
Now, what are the characters this would work best on, if you consider only using it as a cross-up and all possible OoS options, and you're trying to pressure them into either rolling away, spotdodging, or straight up breaking their shield?
And honestly, aside from D-smash because I think that's a good kill move too, I have to agree with him. If by good you're talking about it can kill, kill early, and can reliably connect, then U-smash and D-smash are probably the only two good kill moves Fox has.
U-smash out of a Dash covers a lot of space, so when somebody's in lag in a good distance away from you, you can still kill them. It kills really early as well, and vertical kill moves are in general harder to D-smash covers both directions, is quick, can hit through a weakened shield, and in general gives bad DI unless your opponent has really good reflexes or you're using it predictably. They're sent low horizontally, meaning you can edgeguard from there. Near a ledge it kills, and characters with bad recoveries will just die anyway.
B-air hitbox is small and hard to connect with, and it isn't that fast either, so it can be shielded. Sends them horizontally well, but in all the instances I can think of where B-air would reliably connect (which aren't many), something else would work as well. U-air has the same problem, it can kill, but it's slow, has a small hitbox, and can be potentially SDId out of. F-air should like never kill, because SDI ***** it. F-smash is unreliable and is only really good if you predicted a spotdodge or roll, in which case dashing U-smash is still a viable option. I rarely ever see drill, N-air, or shine gimp adequate or better players, and gimp=\=kill move anyway.
Anwyay, back to the Delux Sunshine Combo applications; I still stand by what I said earlier. This is good as a cross-up. I wouldn't attempt it at the front of someone's shield because of the like 21 frames of space between the shine and the N-air (not including shieldstun). Some OoS options will get out of that, such as MK's shuttle loop or N-air, Marth's upB (but not worth it if you aren't at high enough percents to be knocked back far enough), Diddy's B-air or glide toss, etc.
If they're pressured or don't have good OoS options, this is good and something to consider. However, I'd never use it for the intent of actually trying to break a shield--that might happen but I'm not going to rely on my opponent being that bad. If all else fails, they can just take a hit of the jab or N-air, and whatever attacks that follow. If they try to spotdodge or roll-away, dash U-smash says hi.
Now, what are the characters this would work best on, if you consider only using it as a cross-up and all possible OoS options, and you're trying to pressure them into either rolling away, spotdodging, or straight up breaking their shield?
Conviction
Human Nature
On topic:Think of this move more of a pressure to get an opponet to react in a bad way so you can punish.... somewhat like a tech chase.
Off topic:And you are wrong about the hitboxes being small seeing how Bair and Uair some of foxes most ranged moves and how the hitboxes on Uair are slightly disjointed. I find myself killing more people with Bair because they AD or throw a sex kick when I dthrow them and they expect a FH Fair. I just SH Lagless Fair for damage or SH Bair for the kill. Uair even Bair is a great tool against aerial Snakes seeing how Uair outprioitizes all of Snake's aerials. Also Uair should be more of a juggling move when you read some one's landing or can be used as a cross-up behind a shield. Now both types of Nair have potential to gimp soft Nair can **** characters like Falco,ZSS, ect. thing is you usually won't see a Fox go for the Nair gimp,drillshine is to legit and underused it ***** most recoveries unless they have mutliple jumps, but will say yea you shouldn't get killed by Fair but it happens *Cough*Battlefield*Cough* I GUESS I would use Fsmash on near the edge when some one mis-spaced thier move and I know my dsmash and Usmash are stale atm but yea Usmash and Dsmash are better options for that situtation. Hard Nair should be self-explaintory for gimps.
Off topic:And you are wrong about the hitboxes being small seeing how Bair and Uair some of foxes most ranged moves and how the hitboxes on Uair are slightly disjointed. I find myself killing more people with Bair because they AD or throw a sex kick when I dthrow them and they expect a FH Fair. I just SH Lagless Fair for damage or SH Bair for the kill. Uair even Bair is a great tool against aerial Snakes seeing how Uair outprioitizes all of Snake's aerials. Also Uair should be more of a juggling move when you read some one's landing or can be used as a cross-up behind a shield. Now both types of Nair have potential to gimp soft Nair can **** characters like Falco,ZSS, ect. thing is you usually won't see a Fox go for the Nair gimp,drillshine is to legit and underused it ***** most recoveries unless they have mutliple jumps, but will say yea you shouldn't get killed by Fair but it happens *Cough*Battlefield*Cough* I GUESS I would use Fsmash on near the edge when some one mis-spaced thier move and I know my dsmash and Usmash are stale atm but yea Usmash and Dsmash are better options for that situtation. Hard Nair should be self-explaintory for gimps.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
If you think Bair is not a good kill move, you're just plain wrong.
It's hitbox is actually quite large... not sure where that statement came from.
"Hard to hit with" is BS... learn the character... it's not difficult.
It outspaces shield grabs, making it a useful wall, even if it's not hitting.
It's lack (somewhat) of startup speed is easily overlooked by its autocanceling.
Fsmash is also a decent kill move, but I can see where you're coming from with that.
It's hitbox is actually quite large... not sure where that statement came from.
"Hard to hit with" is BS... learn the character... it's not difficult.
It outspaces shield grabs, making it a useful wall, even if it's not hitting.
It's lack (somewhat) of startup speed is easily overlooked by its autocanceling.
Fsmash is also a decent kill move, but I can see where you're coming from with that.
Conviction
Human Nature
Opps forgot to metion ACing the Bair XD thanks Fenrir.
GET ON AIM
GET ON AIM
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
o_o;;
I find it only useful against tall characters, which I guess I should have said. Against medium--short characters grounded, if I SH/FH and start it too early, it doesn't hit them. If I start it too late, it doesn't auto-cancel and it's punishable. And I honestly don't see how it has a large hitbox. It looks perfectly medium.
Conviction
Human Nature
Zhamy <3
10 <3s
10 <3s
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I don't see it. Sorry.
Conviction
Human Nature
Even if you don't AC the Bair you should make thr characters slide far enough to get out of grab range beside D3 (D3 Defies grab range) here is a good example Full Hop then Bair while fast falling it's best way you'll see why if you don't AC the Bair it's still safe. You're probably gonna be doing wrong at first and if you still get grabbed you're still doing it wrong lol.
Conviction
Human Nature
WOW THAT WHOLE LINE IS THE HITBOX?!?! That's longer than I even thought.
Wait >.> is that line supposed to be a hitbubble?
Wait >.> is that line supposed to be a hitbubble?
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
I'm so confused.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
For the record, you can outrange DDD's shield grab with a Bair hit on shield... with proper spacing, you won't be punished for the attack after a shield hit, even if it's not autocanceled...
Also, autocanceling it just above your opponents usually doesn't leave you very vulnerable, and very much limits their options. You can repeat the movement for another SHAC Bair to eliminate a jump, utilt to beat an attempt to punish, or do a number of things to a forced dodge.
Also, autocanceling it just above your opponents usually doesn't leave you very vulnerable, and very much limits their options. You can repeat the movement for another SHAC Bair to eliminate a jump, utilt to beat an attempt to punish, or do a number of things to a forced dodge.
crifer
Smash Lord
sh bair auto cancelled won´t hit medium tall characters.
But the knockback and slide of the enemy makes it pretty much safe.
Try to play a few friendlies and only try to kill with bair, it´s fun^^
But the knockback and slide of the enemy makes it pretty much safe.
Try to play a few friendlies and only try to kill with bair, it´s fun^^
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
Sure it will... I've hit Diddy with an AC'ed SH bair...
And Bair is my main killing move, really... it's much safer than many of the other options.
TKD
Smash Lord
I don't like this idea.