The Delux Sunshine Combo * UPDATE WITH VIDEO AND CHARACTER LIST*

[Conviction]

So it I have pulled it off in the tourney I went to and on some offline friendlies.
I think it's legit and should become a staple or at least something you should know as a fox player.
I'm coming up with a list of characters it's easy to pull off on that's basically unpunishable.

 

[Toronto Joe]

people always drop there sheilds before i can get the nair off....gotta do it quicker i guess

 

[Jenkins]

im liking the double jump shine for added shield pressure ;D

 

[Conviction]

people always drop there sheilds before i can get the nair off....gotta do it quicker i guess

Buffer the Nair. It should be easy to buffer it cause brawl allows ten frames of buffering and around the time the blue flash is gone from our shine you can press A and the Nair is buffered and waiting, and some one correct me on this if I'm wrong but isn't the fastest grab in this game come out on frame 6?

EDIT: hey jenkins get on AIM

 

[Jenkins]

people always drop there sheilds before i can get the nair off....gotta do it quicker i guess

THEIR. not THERE.

dumba*s.


lol ;D

 

[Conviction]

people always drop there sheilds before i can get the nair off....gotta do it quicker i guess

Wait are you trying this online? Cause of course you are never gonna pull if off unless lag favor's you all the time.

THEIR. not THERE.

dumba*s.


lol ;D

Shut up. ;P

 

[Zhamy]

Marth

I guarantee you he will Dolphin Slash out of this.

 

[Conviction]

I guarantee you he will Dolphin Slash out of this.

If he misses he is in a bad position. You could always Jab>Spotdodge the DS then he messed his ownself up. Also notice why he is in the HARDER section.

 

[Zhamy]

Well, my point is, make a note about characters who can get out of this via invincibility frames.

 

[Conviction]

Well, my point is, make a note about characters who can get out of this via invincibility frames.

Hmm I get to work on that thanks for advice Zhamy! Hmm now who can get out via invincibility frames.....

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That vid is has so much **** it's not even funny.

Doesn't Sonic's Up-B have invincibility frames?

 

[Toronto Joe]

lol cmon Ibby give me some slack....you honestly think id test that online??

 

[Conviction]

That vid is has so much **** it's not even funny.

Doesn't Sonic's Up-B have invincibility frames?

Idk I'll go check
Yea the vid ***** some much it took 15 attempts for Youtube to finally upload it.

Edit: but like it said if you space it right wouldn't the spring miss and put them in a bad position? Still looking up frame data though.

lol cmon Ibby give me some slack....you honestly think id test that online??

I'm sorry TO JOE I thought you might be trying it in a real match but didn't have anyone offline to try it with atm, is working for though?

I'm gonna try and get a vid of the Delux Double Sunshine Finsher up soon.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

O.o i wish i could do that

 

[Conviction]

O.o i wish i could do that

It becomes easier with pratice.

I updated with adding troublesome moves that might interfere.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sonic's spring wouldn't put him in a bad position because they can just use Dair and land laglessly or something. I'm pretty sure it does have invincibility frames, I'm just not sure how quickly it comes out (I don't use Sonic).

 

[SCOTU]

Sunshine combo looks more reasonable than i previously thought.

 

[Fenrir VII]

How does this really do against shorter characters?

Overall, looks handy, though.

 

[Virgman]

This is very intriguing. Nice Iblis. Very nice find. I think if put to good use, and explored even further, this will definitely improve Fox's metagame.

 

[Conviction]

Sonic's spring wouldn't put him in a bad position because they can just use Dair and land laglessly or something. I'm pretty sure it does have invincibility frames, I'm just not sure how quickly it comes out (I don't use Sonic).

Look on the front page under the OP it has moves invinciblilty frames, well may not be him a bad position but for use it would like tech chasing him I guess.

Sunshine combo looks more reasonable than i previously thought.

Thank you

How does this really do against shorter characters?

Overall, looks handy, though.

It works on them if you can't get on shorter characters right now you might put pika and single IC in your harder section, but once you get the hang of it you can pull off on shorter characters. (Don't worry about Olimar no matter how badly you space it he can't do anything about it.)

This is very intriguing. Nice Iblis. Very nice find. I think if put to good use, and explored even further, this will definitely improve Fox's metagame.

But you just love that Zelda and tether grabbers can't do anything about it? You can just wild out on thier shield its not even fair, son.

 

[Virgman]

Yeah! Killing them shields! I'm pretty excited about this ^.^ What a great day.

 

[1nconspikuous]

k sry i'm new to fox... i honestly don't get it.

is it not possible for them to do anything? it really looks like there is time to shieldgrab, spotdodge, jump, jab or roll or something...

also, what's the input? shine>shine>nair>JJC>ftilt?

 

[Conviction]

k sry i'm new to fox... i honestly don't get it.

is it not possible for them to do anything? it really looks like there is time to shieldgrab, spotdodge, jump, jab or roll or something...

also, what's the input? shine>shine>nair>JJC>ftilt?

Watch the vid more carefully. And no there not enough time to grab if you buffer all of your moves. >.> The input is on the OP. Did you read the OP at all?

 

[Zhamy]

You will have negative frame advantage on all moves that hit a shield, but that doesn't mean you can immediately counterattacks. Nair will stuff any shieldgrab attempts, and the jabs can only be beaten by a few moves, not to mention you have to react correctly to it.

So yeah.

 

[Conviction]

You will have negative frame advantage on all moves that hit a shield, but that doesn't mean you can immediately counterattacks. Nair will stuff any shieldgrab attempts, and the jabs can only be beaten by a few moves, not to mention you have to react correctly to it.

So yeah.

Maybe this should be on the OP.

 

[1nconspikuous]

Watch the vid more carefully. And no there not enough time to grab if you buffer all of your moves. >.> The input is on the OP. Did you read the OP at all?

of course - i did read the OP, but i didn't really get the input from that, because in the vid it seemed like you did a lot of different strings.

either way i guess i've gotta see this in a fight to really understand. if what you're saying is, all you have to do (after mastery) is space a shine on a shield to eventually break it, a la n64, this could really big.

for some reason though i can't see it being inescapable though, even without the invincibility moves.

note: i'd really like for this to work, and if it does, it's wicked, but i'm just skeptical.

EDIT: i just read the other post. so you're saying it's not inescapable, but very tricky to escape from/counterattack against. i can take that.

 

[Jenkins]

of course - i did read the OP, but i didn't really get the input from that, because in the vid it seemed like you did a lot of different strings.

either way i guess i've gotta see this in a fight to really understand. if what you're saying is, all you have to do (after mastery) is space a shine on a shield to eventually break it, a la n64, this could really big.

for some reason though i can't see it being inescapable though, even without the invincibility moves.

note: i'd really like for this to work, and if it does, it's wicked, but i'm just skeptical.

EDIT: i just read the other post. so you're saying it's not inescapable, but very tricky to escape from/counterattack against. i can take that.

iblis wtf be nice and explain s***.






..........nah i cant be mad at you


but really, watch it.

 

[Jenkins]

I'm having a hard time doing a true pivot Utilt out of JJC so if anyone can do that you would break the shield too and that seems a whole lot safer.

yeah dude DJC reverse uptilt is so boss, but can be shielded, and since they are already shielding, i dont really think it matters if you do it "perfectly" anyways.


anyways, DJC uptilt is more of a "psuedo-combo", designed to punish those who try to jump or DI away from the Double jab cancel.


oh wow double post i didnt even notice. sorry just got back from work have mercy mods.

 

[Conviction]

Lol nice double post Jenkins.

Yea Conspik you got it now.

 

[Sosuke]

So this is a shield stun combo or something?

 

[Zephil]

no... is THE Delux Sunshine Combo Ultra

 

[Lightning93]

I'm really excited to see this in use against an Olimar. Too bad he can still space with airials and smashes.

 

[Sosuke]

Whats to stop tether grabbers from using Usmash OoS?

 

[AvaricePanda]

The biggest problem IMO is the space between Shine and N-air. If used at the front of the shield (because he's higher up), the N-air will stop shieldgrab attempts, but not all OoS attacks that come out quickly such as MKs shuttle loop, Marth's 1 frame Dolphin Slash, Diddy's OoS Glide-tossing, etc.

This is really good as a cross-up though (used on the back of a shield) since jabbing and grabbing both aren't options in that case. D-air on the back of a shield to Sunshine Combo will break a shield. D-air usually hits the back of a shield anyway (they're often predicted and shielded, but as a cross-up it's much less punishable), and while there's space between the D-air and the shine, and the shine and the N-air, even if they roll away (which is like the only option that some characters have because of bad OoS options), you can just dash towards them and U-smash (unless it's a really good roll, like Lucario's) or dash attack or something.

So basically...

-D-air the back of a shield, maybe shine-stall beforehand.
-Short hop shine
-Nair
-JJC
-HI SHIELD'S BROKEN
-PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW your lasers.
-Charge U-smash
-Success

This probably only really works on like half the cast, given OoS stuff, but it's still really good as a cross-up. I can't imagine this hitting the front of a shield anyway because I can't imagine a set-up where the opponent's shielding and you get to run up and short hop shine their shield.

 

[Sosuke]

Besides using an option OoS, why can't they just spot dodge or drop the shield and take one of the hits?

 

[moogle]

Besides using an option OoS, why can't they just spot dodge or drop the shield and take one of the hits?

They can.

I can see good ideas coming from this whole discussion, though I really don't see any opponent ever trying to shield through the entire shine->nair->jabjab->jabjab sequence and letting their shield break, since the opponent can perform actions between any of those 4 steps. I guess the idea is of this whole thing is that you can't shield through it or shield grab it if done correctly.... but the opponent has other options (spot dodge, roll, upsmash OoS, up-B OoS, jump and aerial, etc.)

I kinda like AvaricePanda's idea of dair-behind-shield -> jump shine -> nair. Might be worth exploring.

And... shine->nair sounds really effective against Olimar. Shining at the correct height avoids his pivot grab. If he tries to shield grab the nair, jab will beat shield grab. I know I've used shine->nair against Olimars quite successfully... but I wonder about spamming shine->nair.

 

[Bartolon]

Can't he just shieldgrab you or jump out of shield or something O_o

 

[AvaricePanda]

if they're facing you.

It's not great straight on because one: Who's going to let you just short hop and shine their shield in the first place, and two: jabs and shieldgrabs are much more viable options against it.

As a cross-up (cross-up meaning you hit the back of their shield), you eliminate those two options and it's must safer to try. D-air is an aerial that's often easily shieldgrabbed, but when you hit the back of a shield it can't be punished with a grab or jab, so you can start a sunshine combo afterwards. What sasukebowser said is correct; they can just drop their shield and take the 10%, but it's pretty much a win-win situation either way as a cross-up, because they either break their shield or take a hit from the shine/nair/jab cancel (unless they're MK, Marth, Diddy, or other characters with good OoS options).

What really bugs me is the space of time between the shine and N-air. Apparently (according to the framework thread)shine hits on frame 3, ends on frame 20, and N-air hits on frame 4, so there's 21 frames minus however many shieldstun frames shine has to retaliate or escape, which is quite a bit of room for a lot of characters. Granted, some people might feel pressured and keep up their shield regardless, but it's looking like this wouldn't work often...

:/

 

[DarkAura]

lol just butting in herei havent been on in a while... laptop was stolen so im forced to use my psp...

anyways IBLIS YOUR GOD no this is perfect... im gonna go perfect this now because this makes fox have a jesus like SHield pressuring game (if theres such a thing as a "shield pressure game")

soo yeeaaahhh nice stuff

 

[Moon-Doggie]

Watching the vid it doesnt seem like theres enough space to avoid samus's grab, unless you mean you jab before the grab animation happens. Also How can one space if you have to get close to be able to shine the sheild first hand?