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The Debate Hall Social Thread

Sucumbio

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I'd say most that don't believe, have doubts, but they go to church to reaffirm their faith.

Depends on the religion too, the models in this discussion fit Christianity best, and protestant at that.

Aesir raises a good point... but unfortunately Christians in particular have a "charge" so to speak, an edict, to spread the Word. So, it matters to them that you believe in God, that your soul be -saved-... etc. This flies in the face of reason for many, and so the conflict arises. It ends up becoming just as important to prove God doesn't exist.
 

Nicholas1024

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The problem with your "Nobody truly believes in Christianity because they're still sad when people die" argument is that you're making the assumption that humans are completely governed by logic. For example, a person might believe with 100% certainty that a common spider can't harm them, but if that won't cure their arachnophobia. See the parallel? Although yes, people might truly believe someone has gone to heaven, their emotions/instinct would still tend towards grief (especially considering that today death is viewed as an enormous evil and survival as an important good, which isn't unreasonable depending on your assumptions.)
 

ciaza

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Alternatively, people could fear death because this is the last time they will spend with their loved ones on Earth. Heaven may be amazing and all, but as a comparison, going to Disneyworld by yourself can suck.
 

AltF4

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I can understand someone being sad for having to be apart from their loved ones. But that deserves at best an "Aww, shucks, I have to spend some time without X, before we end up spending eternity in paradise". Not the immense grief that that people do feel. Even the devoutly religious that profess to believe in a heaven.

I can also understand how a gut human reaction can trump reason. A true believer may still be overcome by instinct if they saw a loved one murdered in front of them. But what about the week after? Why would the "true believer" still be overcome with grief?
 

SuperBowser

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a) Human emotion. It is natural to feel sad when someone you love is gone.

b) The dead person may not necessarily go to heaven.

c) A lot of people's faiths are tested when a person they love dies.

d) In a lot of cases this is akin to saying to a depressed person, "You should be grateful for your life. Thousands of people are dying of starvation.". Do you really think someone should get over their wife/husband/child being murdered in front of them within a week?

e) I don't believe dying will make you go to heaven faster. God comes down on a certain day or something. Being dead doesn't speed this process up.

Even some animals grieve. Grieving is a natural process when you lose someone. Regardless of belief, mourning is necessary for most people. I would wager, though, that religious people handle grief better than those who are not religious. Dunno if there are studies on this though.
 

ciaza

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Alt - I can't talk for myself because I've never been truly in love (forever alone), but I'm really just reiterating what my Grandma told me. Apparently, for her, she didn't want to go to heaven if it meant leaving her family and Grandpa (adorable I know). While she had always been devout, she apparently found her "heaven" in her family and wouldn't stand being away from him for any amount of time.

I'm not religious any more, but I'm happy that she found peace in her beliefs. I'm well-aware that I can't generalise my one grandparent's example to others, but I feel I should point out that love is really powerful and being away from a loved one for even a few years - even compared to eternity - can be grounds for great mourning.

On a lighter note, I am loving all the hate on Battlecow by the PGers lately. I swear some of them only joined to heckle him.
 

Dre89

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Alt- I think the idea is that people don't have relationships in Heaven. Hence why they say "til death do us apart" in marriage ceremonies.

:phone:
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Alt- I think the idea is that people don't have relationships in Heaven. Hence why they say "til death do us apart" in marriage ceremonies.
That makes heaven inferior to earth then. Friends, family, girlfriends. Why would I want to leave them behind? How could it be better without them?
 

Dre89

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The idea is that you're in eternal communion with God, experiencing eternal happiness. The proposed experience in Heaven is by definition supposed to be the greatest experience possible.

I sound like a Christian now....
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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The idea is that you're in eternal communion with God, experiencing eternal happiness. The proposed experience in Heaven is by definition supposed to be the greatest experience possible.

I sound like a Christian now....
Yeah... Given god's character as revealed by the Old Testament I wouldn't really want to spend that much time with him. That is of course if you interpret the bible in the way that I do...
 

Nicholas1024

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You should do some research into some of the pagan practices back then. For example, one tribe's idolatry consisted of heating a (metal, I think) idol up to enormous temperatures and then putting small children into the white-hot idol's arms. So yeah, these weren't exactly innocents that God was directing the Israelites to wipe out.

And as far as heaven goes, I believe you will see family/friends, etc. in heaven (assuming they go there as well), it's just that sex and marriage don't exist there.
 

Reaver197

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Makes perfect sense. Burn children with metal, and Yahweh will make sure your whole tribe gets wiped out, including the children. With the exception of the virgin girls, of course.

Sounds super just and loving to me. I suppose those little boys were just all brats asking for a smiting. Nothing innocent about them.

No sex in heaven? What else are you going to do with all that free time? Sounds like a rip off to me.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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You should do some research into some of the pagan practices back then. For example, one tribe's idolatry consisted of heating a (metal, I think) idol up to enormous temperatures and then putting small children into the white-hot idol's arms. So yeah, these weren't exactly innocents that God was directing the Israelites to wipe out.

And as far as heaven goes, I believe you will see family/friends, etc. in heaven (assuming they go there as well), it's just that sex and marriage don't exist there.
He did flood the entire world, killing everyone except for one family.
 

Nicholas1024

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@Reaver197
Death's not the final judgement. The main question of Heaven or Hell is far more important than anything else in life, and there they will be judged fairly.

And by the way, regarding your comment about heaven, are you really so singleminded such that you can't think of ANYTHING else to do aside from that one activity? Don't act stupid, please.

@Bob
A couple points.

1) According to the Bible, the whole world had basically sunk to the depths I'd just described, and

2) You know the ark was in construction for 120 years? It's not exactly like it was a secret, and there's nothing to indicate that anyone else tried to get on.
 

Sieguest

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Okay so, spent my first month getting squared away in college. Also joined one of the longest running organizations at said college which is pretty much ROTC on steroids. And this weekend I caught a major break!

But uhh, it seems we've jumped into the venus flytrap that is religous discussion again. With that said though there is one thing I'd like to know. Why is it that in most religious discussions, the one that comes under fire is the Judeo-Christian God?
 

AltF4

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Ghosti:

Geography. Nothing more. Most people on this website are from Christian dominated regions. Go elsewhere (or even into certain communities within the US) and you'll find that the discussion goes naturally to other gods.

EDIT: Also, if you want to debate something else, then make a topic. Don't be shy. There's a lot going in in terms of current events. An #OccupyWallStreet topic would be great.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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@Bob
A couple points.

1) According to the Bible, the whole world had basically sunk to the depths I'd just described, and

2) You know the ark was in construction for 120 years? It's not exactly like it was a secret, and there's nothing to indicate that anyone else tried to get on.
So. You know, the normal reaction to people sinning is to put them to death? I thought that there was a commandment called: "Thou Shall Not Kill". I mean seriously... That reeks of hypocrisy.
 

Dre89

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So. You know, the normal reaction to people sinning is to put them to death? I thought that there was a commandment called: "Thou Shall Not Kill". I mean seriously... That reeks of hypocrisy.
Bob pointing out that apparent contradiction won't achieve anything. What you should do is criticise the Christian's defence of it- namely the "Old Law vs New Law" defence.

For example, you could that point that said defence is merely trying to dodge a bullet. No one would say that God would act like that if it were not mentioned in the Bible. To me, the biggest sign that it's a contradiction is that Christians that don't know that it's in the Bible will tell you that God wouldn't do something like that.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Bob pointing out that apparent contradiction won't achieve anything. What you should do is criticise the Christian's defence of it- namely the "Old Law vs New Law" defence.

For example, you could that point that said defence is merely trying to dodge a bullet. No one would say that God would act like that if it were not mentioned in the Bible. To me, the biggest sign that it's a contradiction is that Christians that don't know that it's in the Bible will tell you that God wouldn't do something like that.
I'm trying to establish that God is not that great a character, even by his own standards. The fact that he is willing to kill people and break his own commandment appears to be hypocrisy in my eyes. Plain and simple. Which is why I wouldn't want to hang around him in heaven.
 

Dre89

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That's a pretty moot point. Heaven would only exist if Catholic theology is true, and said theology dictates that going to Heaven would result in eternal happiness. So even if God isn't a top bloke, I'd still rather spend eternal happiness with Him, seeing as the other option is to spend eternal suffering with a chap who didn't get too many gold stars next to his name in school either.....
 

Nicholas1024

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DRE, Bob, you're both misinformed on this topic, if you go back to the original Hebrew for that commandment, the more accurate translation would be

Thou shalt not MURDER.

Which is completely different from what you're proposing, and it's backed up by the various parts of history recorded in the Bible.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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DRE, Bob, you're both misinformed on this topic, if you go back to the original Hebrew for that commandment, the more accurate translation would be

Thou shalt not MURDER.

Which is completely different from what you're proposing, and it's backed up by the various parts of history recorded in the Bible.
Fine. It's "Thou shalt not murder". By the way, murder is defined as the killing of humans with some degree of premeditation or at least malicious intent. So yeah, I think flooding the entire world and killing everyone on it as part of a grand mysterious plan sounds to me like murder. Especially considering that he is killing innocent babies and children along with the elderly, the sick and the disabled. That looks to me like murder.

And so what Dre? I don't want to hang around with those that are morally reprehensible. To be honest, I have thought about this for a while and I can't see what's so immoral about Satan and really, in hell you don't slum with Satan, you just burn for eternity for finite crimes. Did I also mention that punishing people infinitely for the finite crime of disbelief in God sounds incredibly immoral?
 

Dre89

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Well you don't literally burn in Hell, it's not as if it's actually a lake of fire or something like that.

But Nic, Bob is pretty much correct on everything else.

God commits actions which if humans do, they are given eternal suffering after death. At the very least, this means that calling God "good" has absolutely no meaning, seeing as His actions contradict what we personally deem good (what He created us to deem evil mind you).
 

Reaver197

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@Reaver197
Death's not the final judgement. The main question of Heaven or Hell is far more important than anything else in life, and there they will be judged fairly.
Oh, I guess the pain and suffering that are inflicted upon them don't really matter then. Just kill them all, and let the big man in the sky clean up afterwards. Doesn't sound sociopathic in the slightest.

If the final judgement is all that really matters in the end, why even bother killing them all? They're going to get it in the end anyway, unless Yahweh is really just that impatient. Might as well save the trial and tribulation for both sides.

Seems more like a position to hold to justify a war with neighboring tribes for land, resources and woman than anything else to me.

And by the way, regarding your comment about heaven, are you really so singleminded such that you can't think of ANYTHING else to do aside from that one activity? Don't act stupid, please.
Ha, someone sounds defensive.

Nope, I can't. Sex for eternity would be the most heavenly thing for me. Also provides excellent cardio. Sounds positively hellish to endure all of forever without it. What happens to those good, upstanding people that positively delight in having sex?
 

AltF4

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MwuaHAahahah!!

I have once again become a mod of the Debate Hall. May my reign of terror commence!

But seriously, Succumbio stepped down and asked me to do it. So here I am.
 

Sieguest

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Ghosti:

Geography. Nothing more. Most people on this website are from Christian dominated regions. Go elsewhere (or even into certain communities within the US) and you'll find that the discussion goes naturally to other gods.

EDIT: Also, if you want to debate something else, then make a topic. Don't be shy. There's a lot going in in terms of current events. An #OccupyWallStreet topic would be great.
That makes sense.
There are plenty of other things I'd like to talk about (one thing on my mind right now is Math and Computers), the only thing limiting me is time. I basically only have Saturdays to really devote enough time to get into a good discussion anymore. Hopefully this Saturday I'll get something going.
 

Nicholas1024

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Fine. It's "Thou shalt not murder". By the way, murder is defined as the killing of humans with some degree of premeditation or at least malicious intent. So yeah, I think flooding the entire world and killing everyone on it as part of a grand mysterious plan sounds to me like murder. Especially considering that he is killing innocent babies and children along with the elderly, the sick and the disabled. That looks to me like murder.
Is the act of executing a criminal for his crimes murder? How about the act of killing an enemy in war time? If so then just about every single government in history is guilty of ridiculous amounts of mass murder. There's a huge difference between what you're claiming as murder, and what is actually defined as murder.

And so what Dre? I don't want to hang around with those that are morally reprehensible. To be honest, I have thought about this for a while and I can't see what's so immoral about Satan and really, in hell you don't slum with Satan, you just burn for eternity for finite crimes. Did I also mention that punishing people infinitely for the finite crime of disbelief in God sounds incredibly immoral?
This is just wrong on so many levels that I'm lacking a place to start. How about the fact that Satan was the one that originally tempted Eve to eat that fruit in the garden of Eden, and so is directly involved in every single evil act throughout all history?

Well you don't literally burn in Hell, it's not as if it's actually a lake of fire or something like that.

But Nic, Bob is pretty much correct on everything else.

God commits actions which if humans do, they are given eternal suffering after death. At the very least, this means that calling God "good" has absolutely no meaning, seeing as His actions contradict what we personally deem good (what He created us to deem evil mind you).
Dre, often things aren't quite as black and white as people make it out to be, a lot of things depend on the circumstances. Let's take the example of killing a man.

Killing a healthy innocent man is obviously evil.

Putting a wounded guy that's in a lot of pain and asking you to finish him out of his misery is a bit of a grey area but defensible.

Shooting a terrorist that's threatening a bunch of children is an act of heroism.

You see the point? The motive behind an act can matter just as much (if not more than) the act itself in whether said act is right or wrong. As to how this applies, the best explanation I can give is to compare it to human activities.

For example, suppose a young boy is spanking his sister because his sibling stole and broke his toys. Most parents would discipline the boy, because although his sister was wrong in what she did, it's not the boy's place to punish his sister. However, if the boy went and got his parents right away, it's quite possible that the parents would spank their daughter as punishment.

Or to take another example, suppose you knew the location of a murderer who'd killed one of your friends, so you ambushed him and shot him. Even though he was guilty, you're still going to jail for what you did. However, if you'd let the authorities handle it, it's completely possible that they might have convicted the murderer and sentenced him to the death penalty for his crimes.

It's similar with God, really. If we trust our human governments in judging people to be innocent or guilty and subjecting them to death, what is your problem with the concept of God, who is all-knowing and basically THE highest authority, condemning someone to death?

And regarding finite crimes/infinite punishment, recall that all you have to do is accept God's forgiveness and basically say "I'm sorry" to avoid said infinite punishment. Not doing so basically makes said infinite punishment self inflicted, plus makes you guilty of rejecting God's infinite love (which may qualify as an infinite crime, depending on your definition).

Additionally, what alternative to you suggest? Killing people condemned to Hell for all eternity? It's quite arguable on whether that's an improvement or not. Rewarding unrepentant guilty people with heaven after a small period of punishment? In the long run that's not a punishment at all.

@Reaver
Your second paragraph is just trolling me, so I'll focus on the first.

First off, you took my quote out of context, and added some misinterpretation onto it for good measure. The point is that the final judgement of Heaven or Hell is of infinite importance (as Bob has pointed out with his "infinite punishment" argument), which means that the finite importance of earthly decisions just doesn't compare. Regardless of what sufferings a person undergoes here on earth, if they get into Heaven, they'll do fine. (A lot better than fine actually, but you get my drift.)

Secondly, consider what happens when the Israelites DID let them live. (They weren't exactly model listeners, their obedience to God's commands was spotty at best.) They became corrupted by said idolaters, and sunk to their level. Check the last five or so chapters of judges, a gang of men knock at this guy's door, demand to be allowed to **** the guy's male guest, DO get to **** the guest's wife-to-be to the point of killing her, and an entire tribe (or roughly 1/12th of the population) comes out to DEFEND said murderers rather than hand them over to the rest of Israel for judgement. That's why God said to wipe them out. It's like killing a cancerous cell early. Sure, it will die in the end anyway, but if you don't kill it it could end up spreading a LOT more evil before it does die.
 

Dre89

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Except that God killed numerous innocent people. Also, the authorities didn't kill people because they were trying to make their siblings believe in a different god.

As I said before, no Christian who is unware of these actions thinks God would act like this. If those actions were not documented in the Bible, people would probably have been labelled heretics and punished if they accused God of doing something like that. That to me makes it an evident contradiction.

It seems no matter what is documented in the Bible, Christians will always find an explanation to dogde the bullet. So let me ask you this- if that's not considered a contradiction, then what would be a contradiction?
 

Nicholas1024

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Except that God killed numerous innocent people. Also, the authorities didn't kill people because they were trying to make their siblings believe in a different god.

As I said before, no Christian who is unware of these actions thinks God would act like this. If those actions were not documented in the Bible, people would probably have been labelled heretics and punished if they accused God of doing something like that. That to me makes it an evident contradiction.
Part of the essential doctrine of Christianity is that EVERYONE is guilty under God's law due to their sin, and thus condemned to Hell. So, considering someone's eternal fate is FAR more important compared to what happens here on Earth, can we agree that this whole mini-debate reduces to whether or not God has the right to condemn someone to Hell for sin?


As a side note, much of the Old Testament is more or less a temporary agreement between God and His chosen people until Jesus comes in with the New Testament, so the New Testament Rules more or less supersede the Old Testament ones.

It seems no matter what is documented in the Bible, Christians will always find an explanation to dodge the bullet. So let me ask you this- if that's not considered a contradiction, then what would be a contradiction?
You know, this is one of the hardest questions I've been asked in quite some time. (It's also worth noting that that works both ways, regardless of what arguments I use in favor of Christianity, other debaters here will find an argument to dodge the bullet.) In the end I'd have to say you'd either need something I can't find a plausible explanation for (as else I'd accept said plausible explanation), or you'd have to undermine my reasons for why I consider the gospels credible (which has been gone over in the evidence behind the new testament thread ad nauseum.) So let me ask you a similar question, what would you consider sufficient proof of Christianity?
 

Dre89

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As for the Fall of humanity, either way God is not just. He is punishing the entire human population based on one or two people's actions. Now if the idea was that every single human in the world would have taken the apple, then that's apart of a human's essence, which God created, meaning that it's God's fault we took it, and He is punishing us for something He is responsible for. If the idea is that not every human would have taken the apple, then the ones who wouldn't have are being punished when they were innocent.

Either way, God is not just, so calling Him just is a contradiction.

The thing is, there could never be anything that a Christian could not find a explanation they deem plausible for, because whenever faced with a contradiction the answer is always "we can't understand God's actions because He is infinitely beyond us". This is been the answer to the problem of evil and why He kills innocent people, when we're not even allowed to kill bad people. The Christian always plays that card when reality appears to contradict the theology.

Also, I don't think it can be adequately reversed. Being a Christian is making a positive assumption, not being a Christian isn't, hence why the burden of proof is on the Christian. The difference is that most Christians have their conclusion, and then mould premises around it, whereas most non-Christians have their premises prior to their conclusion on Christianity.

But to answer your question anyway, outside of undeniable religious experience, there isn't one single thing that could sufficiently prove Christianity, because all of its flaws would have to not exist first.
 

Theftz22

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I've got two absolute contradictions, not open to interpretation or other theological fiddling.

II Kings 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months.

II Chronicles 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months and ten days.

And

II Kings 8:26 Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.

II Chronicles 22:2 Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.
 
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