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The Debate Hall Social Thread

rvkevin

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2008
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underdog said:
Whatever "lambasting" of the rest of the pie you do it will not change the piece of pie to being anything other than part of the pie, fundamentally constituted by the substance of "pie".
Which is true by definition…onto the rest:

Descriptive ethics: we are in agreement that it is a definitional issue.

Prescriptive ethics: It is not clear to me how to make a prescriptive statement without it being a definition.

Theism: You are assuming a specific definition of God that needn’t be the case. It is not clear to me what new information we have learned about reality by engaging in theological discussions.

Theory of time: I have gone over this with ballin, being equally consistent with the results does not mean that both theories have the same scientific merit. Otherwise intelligent design and evolution would be on equal ground.

Nothingness: You haven’t shown that something can come from nothing; you have merely defined nothingness in a nonsensical way such that there was not nothingness. Let’s make it easier. Let’s define something as the absence of properties (I think I remember Dre. doing this at one point). We can then ask whether nothingness has the properties of nothingness. It immediately comes clear that the definition includes a contradiction. This concept doesn’t refer to anything. It would be like saying we learned that X is not real, because in the definition of X, it states that X is not real. We didn’t learn anything, it’s just word play. What did I learn about reality during this process other than my ability to play with words?

Knowledge: I misspoke here. I thought reliabilism referred to something else. I suggest that knowledge refers to propositions that have a high degree of probability of being true. This is in stark contrast to Plato’s definition because on mine, beliefs don’t need to be true in order to have knowledge. This would mean that whatever produces the beliefs with the highest degree of accuracy would be the best epistemic process and this would follow from the definition. We can then test which processes work best. For example, to test revelation versus the scientific method, have one person go into the temple and the other into the lab and see which ones creates more accurate models of the world. Considering that the scientific method can undermine itself if it turned out to not outperform other methods, it is not begging the question. Put simply, science works. No argument or philosophy required, the results are the inputs into the syllogism; in the same way the syllogism trees exist, therefore trees exist is sound. It’s only begging the question when the inputs are assumed, that is not the case here.

Realism: I can’t ask the question “what is reality?”? How else are you supposed to know what you are trying to model if you can’t even refer to it? Do you know what is real or not? If so, then you already have an operating definition. If you define it in such a way that science has no bearing on it, I doubt that you would be able to determine whether something is real or not.

Modal logic: About these other worlds, how do we know their characteristics? How do we know what is true in them? We need a method in determining (other than by definition) which characteristics are necessarily true and which ones are merely possible and develop a way to somehow evaluate the effectiveness of this method. Until then, I will hold that this does not give us any new insight.

Dualism: You need to support the premises of an argument in order for the conclusion to be supported. I can’t imagine that one’s mind might exist without one’s body anymore than I can imagine a square circle. Why is this premise true or likely true? This almost takes the exact form of the argument for the possibility of zombies. Yes, I don’t think this use of imagination helps us understand nature.
BPC said:
...

Tl;dr.
Then change the topic. What do you want to discuss? The invitation is still open.
 
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You guys know that this is a serious complaint, right?
We've gotten too heady. I don't really have a suggestion, it's just that I look at these walls of text and see everything that is wrong with philosophy, from the lack of bearing on any meaningful definition of reality to philosophy basically becoming its own dictionary. As soon as we stop debating about things that matter, I lose interest.

What about the presidential debates?
 

Dragoon Fighter

Smash Lord
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May 23, 2010
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What about the presidential debates?
Obama: Born in Kenya or some other unamerican country? /in bad taste joke.

In seriousness how are you going to debate about presidential possibilities when the presidential race has not started yet? Sure we could debate the ones that are rumored to be in the race, but I do not really see the point of doing the debate right now. How about an ethics debate instead?
 

Sieguest

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Has the social thread been the only thing getting any love? I do need to apologize for my absence, I've been playing caretaker for my grandmother, though I'll be gone again for college registration and then going to grandmother's home again to see her through the rest of her recovery.

While we may not be able to debate totally about presidential policies, one could at least touch on how they feel each proposed or "looking to run" candidate may fare, even touch a bit on the outlook for an Obama reelection.

We've gotten too heady. I don't really have a suggestion, it's just that I look at these walls of text and see everything that is wrong with philosophy, from the lack of bearing on any meaningful definition of reality to philosophy basically becoming its own dictionary. As soon as we stop debating about things that matter, I lose interest.
These "faults" you find with philosophy actually is what makes it appeal to me, I always come to find out that no matter how many ways a certain idea is defined, it usually sticks to a certain core (for example the idea of "time" or "order"). The way people interpret this core idea differently has always been a sort of thrill for me. While I don't enjoy giant walls of text as much as the next person, it's always neat to see what critical thought processes they use develop their ideas around these cores.
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
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Three things:
1. I don't discuss political figures. There is not much to discuss about them other than their ideas. In that case, pick a specific issue and leave the politicians out of it.
2. If you like philosophy, to each his own.
3. The forum was dead before we started this discussion. If anything, it brought it back to life.
 

Theftz22

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Prescriptive ethics: It is not clear to me how to make a prescriptive statement without it being a definition.
A prescriptive statement is a statement about what one ought or ought not do. Ought is used to express duty or obligation. There is no room here for simply plugging in your own arbitrary definition like there is in descriptive ethics. If you say that ought means that which contributes to the well-being of sentient creatures, you've turned ought into a descriptive term. The only way to argue for that being an obligation is to include ought in your statement, such that it changes from an identity claim to a regular ethical claim like you ought do what contributes to the well-being of sentient creatures, and then we are back to regular prescriptive ethics. The new information that philosophy provides us about this topic is either that there are no objective prescriptions, or there are objective prescriptions depending on which philosophical arguments you accept.

Theism: You are assuming a specific definition of God that needn’t be the case. It is not clear to me what new information we have learned about reality by engaging in theological discussions.
I'm assuming the most prevalent, and hence relevant definition of god that is used by all three major monotheistic religions today. By engaging in theological discussions we learn new information about whether or not god exists and if so what is he like, what are his commandments, etc.

Theory of time: I have gone over this with ballin, being equally consistent with the results does not mean that both theories have the same scientific merit. Otherwise intelligent design and evolution would be on equal ground.
When the mathematical equations behind some scientific theory, such as general relativity, allow two equally consistent physical interpretations of this theory, they are empirically equivalent and thus science cannot determine between the two. This is different from evolution and intelligent design because they are more than just different physical interpretations of the same equations.

Besides, even if science can determine whether the Einsteinian or the Lorentzian interpretation is true, it is still the case that philosophy can provide overriding reasons to think that either the A-theory or B-theory is true. Some of the philosophical considerations here can be found on that overview that I linked.

Nothingness: You haven’t shown that something can come from nothing; you have merely defined nothingness in a nonsensical way such that there was not nothingness. Let’s make it easier. Let’s define something as the absence of properties (I think I remember Dre. doing this at one point). We can then ask whether nothingness has the properties of nothingness. It immediately comes clear that the definition includes a contradiction. This concept doesn’t refer to anything. It would be like saying we learned that X is not real, because in the definition of X, it states that X is not real. We didn’t learn anything, it’s just word play. What did I learn about reality during this process other than my ability to play with words?
Well I firstly think that your definition here is a poor one. The usual definition of nothing is "not anything", the absence of something. We should be careful not to define nothing in such a way that it is something. You also say that the definition includes a contradiction, well why would we use a definition that includes a contradiction over one that does not? However I don't think there really is a contradiction here. If you ask whether your definition of nothing has the properties of nothing you're asking a meaningless question since you already defined nothing as having no properties, hence to ask if you have those properties is nonsensical since there are no properties to be had! Even if your argument here succeeds, the conclusion is that "this concept doesn't refer to anything", well I agree! Nothing does not refer to any thing it refers to the lack of any thing at all.

Even accepting your definition of nothing I still see no way that this effects my original argument. For it is still true that applying the rules of causality to nothingness would ascribe properties to it, which it cannot have by definition, and so hence there can still be no property to restrict something from coming into being out of nothing, and no property to determine what that something will be. Now you ask what have we learned, well once again I think we learn that it is possible that the universe could have come into being out of nothing. Or, if you grant the many flawed tenants of your argument, then you learn that nothingness is a metaphysical impossibility.

Knowledge: I misspoke here. I thought reliabilism referred to something else. I suggest that knowledge refers to propositions that have a high degree of probability of being true. This is in stark contrast to Plato’s definition because on mine, beliefs don’t need to be true in order to have knowledge.
Again I think that you are using rather poor definitions here. I'll take it that you meant to say that knowledge is belief in propositions that have a high degree of probability of being true. Now the first thing here is that most philosophers have always held that knowledge has a connotation of justification, or warrant. It may be true that Alex Rodriguez was the youngest baseball player to ever hit 500 home runs, but if you formed the belief that that proposition is true when you got hit in the head with a baseball bat and suddenly woke up and had an intense intuition of the truth of that proposition, can you really be said to know that that proposition is true? I think not and hence knowledge needs an element of justification in its definition as well. The other thing to be said is that knowledge is meant to represent a maximum on the scale of certainty. Simply having a high degree of certainty is usually not thought of as being knowledge but probably as strong belief. Knowledge represents the endpoint on this scale, when a statement has a 100% probability of being true, only then does it constitute knowledge. On your definition, there would be something "higher" than knowledge, but there simply is no term for that, and if there were, then that would be what I mean by knowledge.

This would mean that whatever produces the beliefs with the highest degree of accuracy would be the best epistemic process and this would follow from the definition. We can then test which processes work best. For example, to test revelation versus the scientific method, have one person go into the temple and the other into the lab and see which ones creates more accurate models of the world.
Oh boy. The glaringly obvious flaw here is how do you evaluate the results and decide which process produces the most accurate results in relation to reality? To be able to do this you must already hold an epistemological position about how we know what best represents reality. Say we carry out this experiment that you propose and the revelatory group comes out with a Christian-theistic model of the world and the scientists come out with a purely naturalistic model of the world. Now we're left with the same epistemological question we were always trying to answer, how do you know? The reason this issue is occurring is because your definition of knowledge doesn't really change anything. The definition of knowledge is only setting the context for the real epistemological questions, like what are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge? What are its sources? What is its structure, and what are its limits? How do we acquire it? Your definition doesn't help to answer any of these central questions.

Considering that the scientific method can undermine itself if it turned out to not outperform other methods, it is not begging the question. Put simply, science works. No argument or philosophy required, the results are the inputs into the syllogism; in the same way the syllogism trees exist, therefore trees exist is sound. It’s only begging the question when the inputs are assumed, that is not the case here.
I don't think you understand the meaning of begging the question. To beg the question is to assume what you seek to prove, such that the only reason you have to accept one or more of the premises is that you already accept the conclusion. In the case of your experiment you seek to prove what is the most reliable method for acquiring truth, but by using the scientific method to evaluate the results you've already accepted it as the valid method for determining which method is true. Whether or not the scientific method can undermine itself is besides the point as you'd still be using it as a method which provides truth about its own falsity (additionally this would have the effect of being self-defeating if science was undermined because then you would have no reason to accept the evaluation that the scientific method is not reliable because it was proven by the scientific method. In effect, you would undermine the undermining! And then what if revelation is shown to be the most reliable method? Then you would have no reason to accept that truth either because it was also determined by the faulty scientific method!).

On a side note, trees exist therefore trees exist is not a syllogism. A syllogism consists of two premises and a conclusion. And furthermore, begging the question doesn't even need to apply here because the conclusion is just an exact restatement of the only premise, so its not even really an argument for the truth of the conclusion, its more like just a restatement of the law of identity, A is A. An argument for the conclusion that trees exist would have to actually contain support for the idea that trees exist.

Realism: I can’t ask the question “what is reality?”? How else are you supposed to know what you are trying to model if you can’t even refer to it? Do you know what is real or not? If so, then you already have an operating definition. If you define it in such a way that science has no bearing on it, I doubt that you would be able to determine whether something is real or not.
Again, I haven't been trying to do any defining of what is real and what is not, the realism that I have been discussing is scientific realism and anti-realism, one of the central issues of the philosophy of science. Generally, most of the considerations that go into discussing whether or not our scientific models are really accurate representations of reality, or whether or not we can know if our scientific models are accurate representations of reality do not necessitate using any deeper of a definition than the generic "the collection of all actually existent things", we really have no need to get caught up in the nuances of that topic, you can see that this is the case by looking at that overview that I linked.

Modal logic: About these other worlds, how do we know their characteristics? How do we know what is true in them? We need a method in determining (other than by definition) which characteristics are necessarily true and which ones are merely possible and develop a way to somehow evaluate the effectiveness of this method. Until then, I will hold that this does not give us any new insight.
Simple. Take a proposition. If it is logically incoherent or contradictory in some way, it exists it no possible world. If it is not incoherent or contradictory, but is not true in the actual world, it may exist in some other possible world as long as only compatible truths exist in that possible world. If it is not incoherent or contradictory, and is true in the actual world, it may also exist in any other compatible possible world as well as the actual world. If it is not incoherent or contradictory, and is true in the actual world, and its falsity is impossible, such as A is A or A is not not A, then it exists in all possible worlds. The set of all possible worlds may simply refer to every possible logically compatible combination of possibly true propositions including all necessary truths in every combination. Now we simply have to terse through every single possibly true proposition and combine them in every possible combination, then we will have every possible world and exactly what is true in all of them. A lot of work but certainly not in principle undoable.

Dualism: You need to support the premises of an argument in order for the conclusion to be supported. I can’t imagine that one’s mind might exist without one’s body anymore than I can imagine a square circle. Why is this premise true or likely true? This almost takes the exact form of the argument for the possibility of zombies. Yes, I don’t think this use of imagination helps us understand nature.
Yes remember that I said that I wouldn't actually be able to hash out and defend all of the arguments, otherwise I might as well start writing books. I can only find that you lack creativity if you can't imagine for instance, waking up in the body of another person, and your own body destroyed. Though you may not be able to imagine your mind existing without any body at all, you could I hope imagine one's mind existing without one's own body, and that is sufficient for the argument. If you can't even imagine that, there are some movies that depict a similar situation that I'm sure you could watch to jog the imagination.

Edit: I'd also like to note that induction was necessarily glossed over.
 

rvkevin

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Underdog,
Prescriptions: You have yet to explain how you get an ought that is not based on a definition or empirical means. Transferring the problem to different words such as duty or obligation does nothing to solve it, it simply avoids it.

Theism: This is mostly a side issue, but your definition of theism would exclude Christianity, so your claim is patently false. By defining God as being outside of the universe, you’re defining the trinity, which includes Jesus, as being outside of the universe. This destroys the entire Biblical narrative of Christianity. This is far from prevalent. The God of Christianity must have intervened in human history or else you don’t have Christianity. As per the other issue, I don’t think we have gained any understanding from theological discussions. This is because theism, as a predictive model, is bankrupt.

Nothingness: How are you not applying causation to nothing? You are saying that nothing causes something. This means that the antecedent is no longer what you referred to as nothing because it now has a causal relationship to something. What you referred to as nothing has no referent. It is as poor as the definition I chose and I chose mine as a way to demonstrate how pointless it is to define nothingness. We learn as much about the world by this discussion as saying X is a thing that has no referent and we know this is thing has no referent. Creating words does not increase our knowledge about the world.

Knowledge: I guess I didn’t make the context clear. It would be in a Bayesian context. This would specify what it means to have justification. Propositions that have a high probability of being true, based on the observations, and quantified in Bayesian terms would be considered knowledge. To a Bayesian, this would simply boil down to having a belief held to a high degree of confidence, and in order to be consistent with their position, they would need the supporting evidence. Someone could assert that they know something that they do not know, and you could challenge them to justify their figures and support them with the available evidence. If they can’t then you can conclude that they don’t actually know X and are simply and falsely asserting it. On my definition, there is no higher than knowledge, it’s simply knowledge. I don’t find this %100 requirement to typically of what people refer to knowledge. According to this, science has not contributed one iota to our body of knowledge (since it must be falsifiable, it can’t be %100). I think most people would disagree with this sentiment.

Begging the Question (Science): Let’s take this slow. Our goal is to try to emulate or model nature as accurately as possible (this is how we determine what is true or not and we want to increase the ratio of true beliefs to false ones). This means that whatever process does this the best (doesn’t have to be the best, only needs to be the best one available) is the best process for our goal. We determine how well they do by comparing its result to nature because that is our original goal. We determine the best by comparing it to the results of others. We have a problem, we try solutions for that problem and one of the solutions works the best. How is this begging the question?

Realism: As I have said above, by your definition of knowledge, science can’t know anything which makes answering your question as to whether science can know anything about reality trivially easy. No, it can’t. Because you have defined knowledge in a particular way, and because of the definition of science, we have answered a “central issue in the philosophy of science.” What have we learned along the way about nature? Nothing, as you state it, it is a futile exercise. Creating words does not increase our understanding of the world.

Modal Logic: Suppose I create a concepts X1, X2…Xn and they are all self-contradictory, what have I learned? I know that they don’t refer to anything, but what have I learned about nature? Has my understanding of nature increased? According to you, my knowledge has grown by leaps and bounds, but I wouldn’t be able to tell you anything meaningful about nature. Again, creating words does not increase our understanding of the world.

If you have heard of the territory-map analogy, nature is the territory and our model of nature is the map. Words would be the symbols of the map legend. We have symbols for mountains, trees, water, etc. Our map is incomplete and we fill it out as we gain more information about nature. We can create symbols in our legend that by definition don’t have a referent, but that does nothing to help us fill out the map or navigate the terrain; it only makes the map needlessly complex by adding useless information to the legend. Our goal is to increase our understanding of the territory, not to make a complex legend.

Dualism: The problem that I have is the same as posed by the Star Trek transporter problem. When you enter a teleport, it does not actually transport you, but the information of the placement of your material is sent and then an identical copy of “you” is made at the destination. Now, is this copy “you”? It would be identical to “you” but would it be “you”? What if it sent the information and built a copy of “you” before “you” were destroyed? Would there be two “yous”? I think this violates our concept of personal identity, and I’m being reminded by this because Word’s spell check is telling me that the plurality of “you” is not grammatically correct. As soon as I try to imagine “myself” being in the body of someone else, I lose the meaning of the term “myself.” It would be equivalent to saying that a clone of you is the same (not the same material configuration, but the same whatever “you” means) as you. This is not obviously true to me. The concept of personal identity would need to be clearly defined and made sure to apply at all times.
 

Theftz22

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Prescriptions: You have yet to explain how you get an ought that is not based on a definition or empirical means. Transferring the problem to different words such as duty or obligation does nothing to solve it, it simply avoids it.
I've never maintained that you can derive an objective ought, in fact I've explicitly argued against it. These arguments that I've used are philosophical, and hence that philosophy gives us the truth that there are no objective moral prescriptions. Furthermore I've argued conditionally that if there are objective moral prescriptions, then these are derived philosophically. In support of the consequent of that conditional I offered some examples of some attempts to derive objective moral prescriptions egoist attempts, the categorical imperative, or Searlian attempts none of which are purely definitional or empirical.

Theism: This is mostly a side issue, but your definition of theism would exclude Christianity, so your claim is patently false. By defining God as being outside of the universe, you’re defining the trinity, which includes Jesus, as being outside of the universe. This destroys the entire Biblical narrative of Christianity. This is far from prevalent. The God of Christianity must have intervened in human history or else you don’t have Christianity.
Jesus is indeed an exception to the usual divine transcendence in Judaism, Islam, and the other 2 parts of the trinity. However he is still not empirically accessible because the past is not empirically accessible.

As per the other issue, I don’t think we have gained any understanding from theological discussions. This is because theism, as a predictive model, is bankrupt.
It's not really relevant as to whether or not theism is true, because if it false, then that is still a truth that has been philosophically discovered. Falsification is a truth discovery that has yielded new information.

Nothingness: How are you not applying causation to nothing? You are saying that nothing causes something. This means that the antecedent is no longer what you referred to as nothing because it now has a causal relationship to something. What you referred to as nothing has no referent. It is as poor as the definition I chose and I chose mine as a way to demonstrate how pointless it is to define nothingness. We learn as much about the world by this discussion as saying X is a thing that has no referent and we know this is thing has no referent. Creating words does not increase our knowledge about the world.
You misinterpret me here. Nothing is causally impotent, no one denies this. That really misses the point however. My point is not that nothing causes something to come into being out of it, but rather that something may come into being uncaused out of nothing. This is because there is simply no causality in a state of nothingness, we cannot apply laws or regularities on nothingness such as causality. Hence something may simply come into being uncaused spontaneously ex nihilo.

On your point about how if nothing is metaphysically impossible, then we have not learned anything: If we were simply creating empty words and then saying that they have no referent, I would agree that it may be plausibly asserted that we have not learned anything new about reality. However nothingness is not an empty word. It minimally refers to a concept. If we discover that that concept has no equivalent in reality I think it can be said that we have learned something new about reality.

Knowledge: I guess I didn’t make the context clear. It would be in a Bayesian context. This would specify what it means to have justification. Propositions that have a high probability of being true, based on the observations, and quantified in Bayesian terms would be considered knowledge. To a Bayesian, this would simply boil down to having a belief held to a high degree of confidence, and in order to be consistent with their position, they would need the supporting evidence. Someone could assert that they know something that they do not know, and you could challenge them to justify their figures and support them with the available evidence. If they can’t then you can conclude that they don’t actually know X and are simply and falsely asserting it. On my definition, there is no higher than knowledge, it’s simply knowledge. I don’t find this %100 requirement to typically of what people refer to knowledge. According to this, science has not contributed one iota to our body of knowledge (since it must be falsifiable, it can’t be %100). I think most people would disagree with this sentiment.
I don't think that adding the sentiment that you are talking about Bayesian probability when you say beliefs that have a high probability of being true changes anything about the study of knowledge as a philosophical discipline. For, as I understand it, Bayesian probability just defines how you calculate probability using evidence acting on prior probability, but it does not help to determine what constitutes evidence or how we determine prior probabilities. The definition of evidence according to Bayesian probability is something like, a given fact x counts as evidence towards hypothesis y if and only if the probability of y is greater given the truth of x, than it would have been without the truth of x. Notice how this does nothing to help us answer questions about how we know whether or not x is true, and those types of questions are precisely the realm of philosophical epistemology. It remains clear that Bayesian probability doesn’t answer any of those central questions of epistemology that I noted such as what are the necessary and sufficient conditions of knowledge? What are its sources? What is its structure, and what are its limits? How do we acquire it? All that Bayesian probability can do is plug those known facts into a formula once we have that knowledge.

Additionally, justification does not just fall out as a result of your definition via Bayesian probability. For instance, a theist may have revelation that god speaks to them, for them this counts as a fact and thus evidence, on a Bayesian definition, for god’s existence. However unless you want to concede that revelation constitutes justification towards a truth claim then you would have to admit that just because you can use Bayesian probability does not mean that you are justified in thinking you have the evidence that you are plugging into the formula. It’s simply not the case that “facts” you plug into the formula are necessarily justified; that is a question beyond simple probability calculus.

As for the 100% criteria on knowledge, that comes from the usual definition of knowledge as justified, true belief. Not justified, probably true belief. Now when you try to redefine knowledge as the latter, I point out that there is a thing that is "higher" than knowledge on your definition, namely, the former definition. You respond by saying "On my definition, there is no higher than knowledge, it’s simply knowledge." Well, uhh, there clearly is. True is higher than probably true. And as I said, on your definition "there simply is no term for that, and if there were, then that would be what I mean by knowledge." It is true that this is not how the layman uses the term in everyday conversation, but rarely do laymen use specialized terms in their technical meaning. I bet that when you ask the average person on the street what a vacuum is, for instance, you will hear about how you use it to clean your carpet, not that it is space without matter. And indeed as I say, this is how the term is classically used philosophically, hence Socrates' famous quote, "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing."

Begging the Question (Science): Let’s take this slow. Our goal is to try to emulate or model nature as accurately as possible (this is how we determine what is true or not and we want to increase the ratio of true beliefs to false ones). This means that whatever process does this the best (doesn’t have to be the best, only needs to be the best one available) is the best process for our goal. We determine how well they do by comparing its result to nature because that is our original goal. We determine the best by comparing it to the results of others. We have a problem, we try solutions for that problem and one of the solutions works the best. How is this begging the question?
Well of course we are trying to determine what method of inquiry best models nature, and that is precisely the question we need an answer to. But in your test, you've already assumed that it's science that does so, and that is why it is arguing in a circle, and could cause those problems that I mentioned such as undermining the undermining and all of the other results given by the use of science to judge the results. Additionally, I don't understand how if you use scientific inquiry to test the results of scientific inquiry you won't get exactly identical answers. In fact this seems to be true no matter what you use to test results and hence this is why we don't answer epistemological questions in this way. If you did come up with different results, wouldn't this seem to indicate a flaw in the test rather than the method, since presumably assuming induction (which you need to do), doing the same exact test with the same exact method should yield identical results. Further absurdities; say you did go through with the test and, contra induction (which would then destroy science anyway), you manage to prove scientifically that science is not as accurate as revelation, and suppose you ignore the fact that according to your results you can't trust your results, and you say revelation is more accurate. Now are you to redo the test with revelation as the judge?? Now what if science comes out on top in this test??? Headaches! I think this is the most poorly designed experiment ever.

Realism: As I have said above, by your definition of knowledge, science can’t know anything which makes answering your question as to whether science can know anything about reality trivially easy. No, it can’t. Because you have defined knowledge in a particular way, and because of the definition of science, we have answered a “central issue in the philosophy of science.” What have we learned along the way about nature? Nothing, as you state it, it is a futile exercise. Creating words does not increase our understanding of the world.
When it comes to "knowing" anything outside of necessary mathematical truths or logical truths, we are not going to be able to know them in the traditional philosophical sense. So when I ask the epistemological question of realism and anti-realism, whether or not we can know if our scientific models are accurate representations of reality, I mean know in more of a definition similar to yours like justified, probably true belief. It would be more like trying to answer the question, why think that scientific models are accurate representations of reality or not? And so far as there are reasons, there is justification. So far as they are sound and valid, they may establish probable truth either affirmative or negative. In this way it becomes a very reasonable question to try to ask and we can learn new information about the nature of science with relation to reality by answering it. Very little can be established as certain knowledge, but we can also establish probable truth with philosophical argumentation in such topics as scientific realism and anti-realism, which are beyond the purview of science.

Modal Logic: Suppose I create a concepts X1, X2…Xn and they are all self-contradictory, what have I learned? I know that they don’t refer to anything, but what have I learned about nature? Has my understanding of nature increased? According to you, my knowledge has grown by leaps and bounds, but I wouldn’t be able to tell you anything meaningful about nature. Again, creating words does not increase our understanding of the world.
You seem to imply that creating self-contradictory concepts is all there is to modal logic, which simply isn't true. There are plenty of modal arguments, using empirically inaccessible possible worlds, that, if successful, establish new and important information about the actual world such as the modal argument for dualism, the modal ontological argument, Kripke's argument against identity theory, the modal argument against utilitarianism, etc. In fact I think I could formulate a modal argument against modal logic being only the creation of self-contradictory concepts, and now that I think of it I could have used a modal argument against the idea that "skill is the ability to win" in BPC's arguing against subjectivity thread in the Brawl stage discussion. Ah, the wonders of modality!

Dualism: The problem that I have is the same as posed by the Star Trek transporter problem. When you enter a teleport, it does not actually transport you, but the information of the placement of your material is sent and then an identical copy of “you” is made at the destination. Now, is this copy “you”? It would be identical to “you” but would it be “you”? What if it sent the information and built a copy of “you” before “you” were destroyed? Would there be two “yous”? I think this violates our concept of personal identity, and I’m being reminded by this because Word’s spell check is telling me that the plurality of “you” is not grammatically correct. As soon as I try to imagine “myself” being in the body of someone else, I lose the meaning of the term “myself.” It would be equivalent to saying that a clone of you is the same (not the same material configuration, but the same whatever “you” means) as you. This is not obviously true to me. The concept of personal identity would need to be clearly defined and made sure to apply at all times.
It seems to me that we don't have to be bogged down in these messy issues of identity, which really shouldn't be a major issue here, all we need to do is clarify our terms. I'm going to use the symbols b for your body and c for your conscious identity (which is a function of the mind). In order to affirm the first premise all one needs to do is imagine c existing without b. In order to do this I sketched a possible scenario of c existing without b that is easy to imagine and has been depicted with minor differences in movies and such, therefore it should be obvious that it if you can depict it, you can imagine it. Add another person with a body and conscious identity, we will refer to you as consisting of b1 and c1, and the other person as consisting of b2 and c2. Now we imagine that you wake up and find that c1 has been switched with c2, such that c1 is now "in" b2, and c2 is "in" b1. Now somehow b1 is destroyed. Now you have c1 existing without b1, and that is the first premise. So long as you can even imagine that scenario then the first premise is true. And the fact I can type up a description of it, think about it, and even watch movies or draw pictures of such a scenario indicates that it is minimally imaginable, for imaginability is a necessary condition for these actions.
 

rvkevin

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underdog22, (Edit: If you want to respond to this, make a new thread and I'll respond there)
Prescriptions: I didn’t suggest that you did.

Theism: The past leaves empirical evidence. This is how we are able to know things about the past. A world where everyone comes from Adam and Eve will leave distinct differences from a world where we diverge from the same branch that other apes diverged from. These differences are what allows us to empirically test our hypotheses that pertain to the past.

Nothingness: I don’t follow. If for every instance there is nothing, something material follows from that fact, how can we say nothing did not cause something material? Isn’t that what it means to say that something caused something? As for this nothingness referring to some concept, I am still unsure about that. If it does, I don’t know what it refers to.

Knowledge: What is necessary and sufficient for knowledge depends on how you define knowledge. If you define it in terms of justified true belief, it depends on how you define justified and true. This is simple semantics, nothing interesting here.

I agree that someone can use Bayesian probability incorrectly. In such a case, you can correct them and tell them the error. In the case you mentioned, you can point to them the fact that they didn’t consider the probability that they had an auditory hallucination given the non-existence of god. We know that we are not perfect processors of information so anyone who thinks that this probability is low would be deluding themselves. This is why skepticism is warranted when evaluating the evidence, since we have seen that we have the tendency to favor evidence that supports our original guess (confirmation bias). This may also convince them that they are overvaluing their experience towards a specific hypothesis and make them re-evaluate it. Anybody can plug any value into the formula, that is why they have to demonstrate them empirically in order for anyone else to belief it as well. As the saying goes, garbage in, garbage out. You can plug in values that say anything, which is why you need to demonstrate that they are empirical, rather than speculative.

I simply don’t find the definition of 100% certainty to be helpful. I’m perfectly comfortable saying that “I know the sun will exist tomorrow” or that “I know the Earth revolves around the Sun” even though they are not %100 certain. This is because I have a very, very high degree of confidence that they are true. If they turn out not to be the case, then I would update my beliefs and say that I know better. If we reserve knowledge for only things known with %100 certainty, like I said before, this would not include anything from science and would likely include only things true or false by definition and meaningless claims (basically anything that doesn’t need evidence). I don’t think this dichotomy is a useful one. What purpose is there to say that you don’t know anything about the world? We “know” that some things are more likely to happen than not in comparison to other things. In science, we call the things that are incredibly accurate “knowledge”. This gives a guide as to what we should trust when new ideas are formed. If it goes against established science, then it is probably incorrect. If it goes against preliminary studies, then we need to have a skeptical eye on both the original study and the new idea. If you were to dump everything previously known about the world through science since it doesn’t achieve % 100 certainties, then we would be without a guide. The distinction serves no purpose.

Begging the question: I haven’t assumed it a priori, it is a conclusion based on observation. If religions had constructed the most accurate models, then they would be preferred, they would be mainstream “science.” I think the problem here is one of terms. Science can either be defined in terms of the scientific method or based on its etymology. If it is based on its etymology, meaning with knowledge, then it would be circular (i.e. whatever method creates knowledge is “science”, therefore science, as defined as the scientific method, creates knowledge). However, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that we can compare the different methodologies and then compare how well they conform to nature (because that is our goal). The one that conforms most accurately to nature is the best methodology for our goal. The scientific method has performed the best. Since the scientific method performed the best, it has become synonymous with “science”, even though it needn’t be the case.

Realism: So, let’s say that scientific models do not model reality, what then do they model? The only way I know how to determine (define) what is real versus not real is whether they fit into the most accurate model of reality. I can tell if an organic flower is real because if I see something that takes the form of an flower, from this observation I can predict what my other senses will perceive. If they don’t, if the predictions fail, then it is not real (maybe I feel it is plastic and therefore is fake) and is instead an illusion. If they are successful, this increases the probability that they are real. Sure the model will not always be accurate, but every time it fails, it is an improvement (because it now conforms to another feature of reality). I simply do not know what it means to say otherwise, which is why I want others to define reality before embarking on this avenue since I don’t know what they are referring to. By the way, model building is science’s forte.

Modal Logic: “If they are successful”…that’s a big “if”. Do people take those other arguments as seriously as the model ontological argument?

Dualism: This commits the masked man fallacy. The masked man fallacy describes the series of events that goes like this. Suppose someone robs a bank wearing a mask. You read this in the paper and think about the robber robbing the bank. The investigators find reasonable cause to arrest your friend. You then try to defend him with the following argument. Yesterday, I was thinking about the masked man, but I was not thinking about my friend, since I was able to visualize the masked man independent of my friend they don’t share an identity relationship, therefore the masked man cannot be my friend. Bringing this back to dualism, saying that you can visualize your mind apart from your body is similar to saying that you could visualize the masked man distinct from your friend. They may share an identity relationship, yet your visualization does not reflect reality. This is why the concept of self becomes fuzzy, we are not imagining the same concept in reality even though they share some similar characteristics.

I could say the same thing concerning my hand. I am able to conceive that someone else could have the same physical composition as my hand. What does this prove? Nothing, there is not an identity relationship between my hand and what I conceive to be my hand on their body. That fact doesn’t change the fact that my hand refers to a particular physical composition. If I change that physical composition, injury for example, then that change also applies to my hand. However, that change in physical composition won’t reflect on the copy of my hand on the other person, so the two don’t have an identity relationship. The “my” hand and the copy (visualization) of “my” hand are not identical concepts. When you say that it is imaginable that one’s mind could exist outside the body (which I would correct as brain), it must actually be “your” mind, not some copy of it, because then you are introducing another concept that is similar yet is not equivalent to what your trying to prove, which makes the rest of the argument a non-sequitor.
 

Dre89

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I think it kind of reflects poorly on the Hall (not that anyone is looking/cares) that seemingly all of us here just throw our university degrees at our opponents in debates. People such as Underdogs and myself seem to only use philosophy, and most of the atheists only ever seem to argue from a scientific standpoint.

I mean, it's expected, but I kind of feel limited as a debater if I can't engage with people on anything but a philosophical level, and can't do anything but inoke concepts and terminology that comes from my degree.

Just my two cents.
 

blazedaces

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I think it kind of reflects poorly on the Hall (not that anyone is looking/cares) that seemingly all of us here just throw our university degrees at our opponents in debates. People such as Underdogs and myself seem to only use philosophy, and most of the atheists only ever seem to argue from a scientific standpoint.

I mean, it's expected, but I kind of feel limited as a debater if I can't engage with people on anything but a philosophical level, and can't do anything but inoke concepts and terminology that comes from my degree.

Just my two cents.
... What? Has anyone recently in the thread mentioned their degree besides you? I've been in the debate hall since I was in high school. There's nothing stopping people from committing to their own research. There's plenty of topics discussed that I'm sure you haven't studied specifically from your degree and that goes for anyone.

-blazed
 

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I think it kind of reflects poorly on the Hall (not that anyone is looking/cares) that seemingly all of us here just throw our university degrees at our opponents in debates. People such as Underdogs and myself seem to only use philosophy, and most of the atheists only ever seem to argue from a scientific standpoint.

I mean, it's expected, but I kind of feel limited as a debater if I can't engage with people on anything but a philosophical level, and can't do anything but inoke concepts and terminology that comes from my degree.

Just my two cents.
would it not make sense for people to debate about things they know? it's pretty hard to jump into a debate if you have no idea what you're talking about, and even if you do it's not as if you're going to accomplish much.

who exactly is arguing from a scientific standpoint?
 

SuperBowser

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tbh, I don't really know what people in the DH study. I think it would be interesting to know lol.

I talk about subjects I know because I probably won't contribute much otherwise :c I don't enter God debates because I don't find them interesting.
 

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It's not so much only participating in topics we've studied, it's that a lot of us approach topics from the perspective our degrees teach us.

:phone:
 

rvkevin

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New Topic: educational background and how it relates to stuff

I majored in Mathematical Sciences (mostly statistics/probability), minored in IT and Economics...Only courses that could be slightly construed were Geology and Psych 101 :(. So, how would you describe the approach that I take? What would a mathematical approach look like? What would a scientific approach look like? What would a philosophical approach look like?
 

AltF4

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New Topic: educational background and how it relates to stuff

I majored in Mathematical Sciences (mostly statistics/probability), minored in IT and Economics...Only courses that could be slightly construed were Geology and Psych 101 :(. So, how would you describe the approach that I take? What would a mathematical approach look like? What would a scientific approach look like? What would a philosophical approach look like?
There's a problem that needs solving, fast!:

Mathematician: Assume the opposite and work towards a contradiction.

Scientist: Gather evidence, make weakly stated conclusions and state that more research is needed to explore these results.

Philosopher: Question whether the problem really exists and how we can be sure we even exist for the problem to be posed.

Engineer: Solve the damn problem.
 

blazedaces

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There's a problem that needs solving, fast!:

Mathematician: Assume the opposite and work towards a contradiction.

Scientist: Gather evidence, make weakly stated conclusions and state that more research is needed to explore these results.

Philosopher: Question whether the problem really exists and how we can be sure we even exist for the problem to be posed.

Engineer: Solve the damn problem.
I laughed so hard at that wow...

-blazed (recently graduated in electrical engineering)
 

Dre89

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New Topic: educational background and how it relates to stuff

I majored in Mathematical Sciences (mostly statistics/probability), minored in IT and Economics...Only courses that could be slightly construed were Geology and Psych 101 :(. So, how would you describe the approach that I take? What would a mathematical approach look like? What would a scientific approach look like? What would a philosophical approach look like?
It depends what you mean by education. Our education consist of alot of factors beyond our schooling.

Your approach is very typical of contemporary philosophy (most people's approaches here are, which is to be expected) which is essentially a scientific approach.

I'd say you're a soft scientisimist because you only seem to value empirical evidence as legitimate evidence, and you don't like the prescription of ought statements. Most people here are like that, because that's what the sciences and scientific philosophy teaches people.

I could go on to say how you stance against religion is reflective of times as well, but then that would be talking about cultural/societal influences rather than tertiary education influences.
 

Theftz22

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I'd say you're a soft scientisimist because you only seem to value empirical evidence as legitimate evidence, and you don't like the prescription of ought statements. Most people here are like that, because that's what the sciences and scientific philosophy teaches people.
I'd say he's more of a traditional empiricist than a scientismist, I take it that he would affirm the proposition that "We have no source of knowledge in S or for the concepts we use in S other than sense experience."

I still have a hard time seeing how this is not ultimately as self-refuting as scientism is though. It seems impossible to develop an empirical proof of that proposition...
 

blazedaces

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Can anyone else not post in the proving grounds?
You have to apply to the group the same way you applied to the debate hall (I don't mean through our rigorous voting process, I just mean in your settings). A few years back I couldn't post their either so I pm'd the guy who ran the debate hall (his name slips my mind for some reason at the moment) and he told me to apply and then he would accept me, simple as that.

-blazed
 

Dre89

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Ballin4death- I'm not going to be able to guess what you've studied, but I'd assume it's some kind of science.

The only "read" I can get from you (and I realise it's highly possible I'm wrong here) is that your stance on religion suggests you never really had a severely negative experience with religion in yourr upbringing. You're hesitant to call yourself an atheist, and you don't seem religious yet at the same time you don't show the bitterness towards it that alot of atheists who had negative experiences with religion do.

I say that because generally, the most bitter anti-theistic atheists have grown up in some opressive religious environment. Usually the theists around them aren't particularly sophisticated about it- they don't try to provide a rational, philosophical justification for their faith, they just go with the "believe or you'll go to hell" angle. That generally breeds the most aggressive atheists.


I wouldn't be surprised if someone like BPC has a strict overbearing religious aunt or something like that.




I'd say he's more of a traditional empiricist than a scientismist, I take it that he would affirm the proposition that "We have no source of knowledge in S or for the concepts we use in S other than sense experience."

I still have a hard time seeing how this is not ultimately as self-refuting as scientism is though. It seems impossible to develop an empirical proof of that proposition...
I don't quite understand how that's any different to scientism though. Scientific statements are essentially empirical.
 
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I say that because generally, the most bitter anti-theistic atheists have grown up in some opressive religious environment. Usually the theists around them aren't particularly sophisticated about it- they don't try to provide a rational, philosophical justification for their faith, they just go with the "believe or you'll go to hell" angle. That generally breeds the most aggressive atheists.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone like BPC has a strict overbearing religious aunt or something like that.
I was brought up in a household with a christian father and a jewish mother. They tried to get me to perform a Bar Mitzvah but I was never heavily indoctrinated and I honestly could not be ****ed to learn the jewish alphabet. I was never really pushed towards religion by... anyone.

No, my bitter anti-theism comes mostly from the way I've seen people react, both online and offline, when confronted with a reality that doesn't confirm with their senseless faith. It comes from the way that organized religion and faith have ruined lives and duped millions into not only believing a fairy tale, but giving those reading the fairy tale money. Mostly the poor and middle class. It comes from how people are being taught that thinking is wrong, and that good science is being ignored for superstitious dogma.

I never had to deal with a deconversion, I never had my head filled with lies. I'm thankful to my parents for that. But I'll be damned if that'll stop me from stating the obvious in an open forum.


Speaking of which... "Scienceism"? You mean inductive reasoning? Yes, I suppose it's essentially flawed... But damn does it work! I love how you seem to look down on science and all that it uses, but you're here. Posting on the internet. From a computer made up of hundreds of incredibly advanced machines placed together. Most likely in a house built with modern architecture (a science of design), plumbing (science), clean water (chemistry), and electricity (physics and electronics). Before you state any objections like "empiricism is self-refuting", this is not a philosophical debate point. I'm not calling you to a debate in this post. This is simply me voicing my disgust that you could take all the good that an unequivocally functional worldview has offered you and spit all over it. :glare: I welcome you to try to live for a day without the bounty that science offers the life you can see and feel, and see how that treats you.
 

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Well, Doggs made the claim, but I do agree with him....

Scientism isn't just the advocacy of inductive logic and empiricism, it's saying that these are the only ways to conclude truths. Now this has long been known to be a fallacy because that statement itself can't be verified empirically.

That's all Doggs and I are saying, we're not saying science or inductive reasoning is bad.

:phone:
 

rvkevin

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dre said:
It depends what you mean by education. Our education consist of alot of factors beyond our schooling.
Well you started off with saying that all every did was throw their degrees around. I suppose you could expand that to include all of their life experiences. It would kind of be hard to approach a problem without using your life experience though. I suppose I have an informal science education, reading blogs, book, and whatnot. But to that token, that covers a lot of philosophy as well.
dre said:
Scientism isn't just the advocacy of inductive logic and empiricism, it's saying that these are the only ways to conclude truths. Now this has long been known to be a fallacy because that statement itself can't be verified empirically.
There are two interpretations to that statement. There is "science is the only way (possible or in theory) to conclude truths" and "science is the only way (that we have at the moment) to conclude truths. Which one does scientism refer to. I suspect that it refers to the former, in which case my position would not be scientism for my position is the latter.
underdog said:
I'd say he's more of a traditional empiricist than a scientismist, I take it that he would affirm the proposition that "We have no source of knowledge in S or for the concepts we use in S other than sense experience."
Considering that I would consider consciousness to be sense data (our senses are interpreted in the brain, so it would be inaccurate to say that our sense of touch resides in our hands, etc.), it would be hard for me to think of a source of knowledge that we get that does not go though this processor of ours. What, are you going to learn something while unconscious? Doesn't seem like a controversial statement to reject that.
dre said:
I say that because generally, the most bitter anti-theistic atheists have grown up in some opressive religious environment. Usually the theists around them aren't particularly sophisticated about it- they don't try to provide a rational, philosophical justification for their faith, they just go with the "believe or you'll go to hell" angle. That generally breeds the most aggressive atheists.
Any data to back that up?
 

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He might be so antitheist because so many of those nut cases try getting political power and warping the education system to fit their version of reality. Rather than accepting they might be wrong.
 

Reaver197

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Indeed. A good deal of the current US political arena's dysfunctionality comes from, either directly or indirectly, the influence of religion. Whether it be by out and out Christian nationalists trying to explicitly inject religion into everything, or the powerful and rich either pandering to their own religious beliefs and/or taking advantage of the religious voting block to make a good deal of people vote against their own long term interests.

Throw on top of that 9/11 and all that jazz.

Might make one a little less endeared to the whole shebang.

Also, random food for thought: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITpDrdtGAmo
 

eschemat

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DRE what's your read on me? :D

Anyways, I was just going to say that when the World Online Debating Championships start up this August, we should debate the topics. Just thought it would bring life, and we could have an individual debating tournament to see who the top debater is :D
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Scientism isn't just the advocacy of inductive logic and empiricism, it's saying that these are the only ways to conclude truths. Now this has long been known to be a fallacy because that statement itself can't be verified empirically.

That's all Doggs and I are saying, we're not saying science or inductive reasoning is bad.
Yeah but the same logic could be applied to logic right? I mean there is no logical way to verify that logic is the only way to conclude truths.

I think it's not really worth considering these points, because at some point we are going to have a circular argument or an assumption, we may as well assume that logic and science work because they work.

Edit: I may or may not be back temporarily...
 

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Each I haven't read/remember enough of your posts to get a read. Soz.

But mimicking the debates is a good idea.

:phone:

Bob- Logic is different because the rejection of logic itself entails logical merit, making it contradictory.

And again, no one ever said science doesn't work, people are just criticising the belief it is the only thing that works.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Bob- Logic is different because the rejection of logic itself entails logical merit, making it contradictory.
You mean that I can't use logic to reject logic?

Yeah sure, but I'm not rejecting logic. I'm merely showing that you can't logically prove that logic works unless you accept circular arguments. However, to do this, I use logic. I don't see any contradiction. I am assuming that logic works in proving that it can't be proven to work. Proving something as unprovable, but assuming that it is true is not self-contradictory.

And in relation to the second point, I know, I'm just going off on a tangent. I don't believe that anyone believes that science is the only method of finding truth. Maths and logic find truth as well, albeit abstract truths.
 
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