• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Debate Hall Social Thread

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Cars increase productivity though. There are very few people who can legitimately claim an increase in productivity from drugs.

And a big difference between legalizing drugs and leaving it in criminal circles is not so much the problems that are solved, but the fact that if drugs were legalized, we would lose some of that taboo "aura" that surrounds drugs at the moment, and no amount of education efforts will be able to mitigate that. More people will try it, and it follows that more people will be hooked. Perhaps it is not the place of laws to deter people from drugs, but this is an obvious negative aspect to legalization.

What about the comparison to alcohol? Alcohol can threaten your life in excessive amounts, has different types with varying concentrations, etc., and it's been regulated fairly successfully.

Not really taking any side in particular atm...
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
What is productivity? That's an important question there.

See, I would define a productive act as one that makes people happy. Cars are used to transport goods which will make people happy, and to transport people to places they want to be, which makes them happy. But drugs make people happy also - that's why many people choose to use them.

Obviously drugs can wind up making people unhappy, but so can cars.


The idea that more people will use drugs if they are legal isn't really founded. Would you start using drugs if they were legal? The law isn't much of a deterrence to most since it is easy to get around. Drugs would still be "taboo" socially for most. Also, what about drugs that are currently legal - like salvia, or drinking a bunch of cough syrup? It doesn't seem like legality is making those drugs spread like wildfire or anything. Find me some people who don't do any illegal drugs but use those legal ones strictly because they are legal.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Screw the god talk.

Legalize all Drugs. Who's with me?
Definitely. I'm a big fan of personal responsibility (which IMO ends when other people get involved, like in the economy), and the fact that we are protecting people from themselves when they don't want it is kind of disgusting from a moral and pragmatic stance. What's next, banning unhealthy food?

Cause the 60's are dead. There's too many miserable people on Earth to allow free use of crack/heroine/coke. We'd go from barely making it to definitely not making it as a species. Just imagine America's worst ghetto - everywhere.
...I seriously doubt this. You really think that almost everyone would be on hard drugs?

While I agree with Alt on the "make a topic" thing, I fully expected the comparison to Fast Food to crop up again, and as you can see in one page's replies the "drugs-legal or not" issue is played out.

If you legalize it, there are problems, just different problems than the ones we have now. It may in fact be the lesser of two evils, I can't say. It's difficult to predict the outcome when there's so many crack heads out there. What becomes of them? Instead of looting/stealing to get their next fix they get real jobs so they can buy their crack vials at Walgreens? I dunno, it just seems like a lose-lose situation.

And for the record I have no authority to dictate what anyone puts in their body save my own. However, I trust doctors, and it is almost unanimously decided in the medical community that Drugs are bad m'kay. As is cholesterol.

Besides, I see fast food being banned eventually, or drastically altered. Ronald McDonald's days are already numbered.
...Oh. God dammit people!
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
What is productivity? That's an important question there.

See, I would define a productive act as one that makes people happy. Cars are used to transport goods which will make people happy, and to transport people to places they want to be, which makes them happy. But drugs make people happy also - that's why many people choose to use them.
Productivity in terms of the collective good I suppose. Allows people to go to work within a larger radius, transport of goods, etc.

The idea that more people will use drugs if they are legal isn't really founded. Would you start using drugs if they were legal? The law isn't much of a deterrence to most since it is easy to get around. Drugs would still be "taboo" socially for most. Also, what about drugs that are currently legal - like salvia, or drinking a bunch of cough syrup? It doesn't seem like legality is making those drugs spread like wildfire or anything. Find me some people who don't do any illegal drugs but use those legal ones strictly because they are legal.
I would certainly try it. Imagine if alcohol were treated the same way as drugs are. Illegal, and ads everywhere about what they do to your liver, etc. I'm sure there would be more people who would go their whole lives without consuming alcohol. If we were to effect the change suddenly, the change in attitude wouldn't happen overnight, but it would happen. Obviously this is all speculation, but I think it's reasonable.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
Productivity in terms of the collective good I suppose. Allows people to go to work within a larger radius, transport of goods, etc.
But all of those are just steps leading to something that will eventually make people happy. Drugs are cutting out all the middlemen :laugh:

I would certainly try it. Imagine if alcohol were treated the same way as drugs are. Illegal, and ads everywhere about what they do to your liver, etc. I'm sure there would be more people who would go their whole lives without consuming alcohol. If we were to effect the change suddenly, the change in attitude wouldn't happen overnight, but it would happen. Obviously this is all speculation, but I think it's reasonable.
Uh, this does happen for alcohol.

It's just that people gave up on prohibition because they realized it's stupid, leads to crime and is impossible to enforce. Sound familiar?
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
My point still stands.

Prohibit alcohol and more people are likely to go their whole lives without even trying it.

Similarly, legalize drugs and more people are likely to try them at least once in their life.

Again, not saying it is the government's place to stop them if they wish to do so, but the point is still there.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
I never fully understood the is-ought distinction. Perhaps you could illuminate it.

Suppose that it is the case that I am thirsty. Suppose it is the case that I know that water will quench thirst. Suppose it is the case that I would prefer not being thirsty over being thirsty.

Are you saying that from these sentences, I can't get to the conclusion that I ought to drink water? Is so, what more is needed to get to that conclusion? If not, which of these sentences is not attainable through science?
Well remember that the is-ought problem refers to general prescriptions, oughts that could apply to everyone, moral rules so to speak. Not personal prescriptions obviously, because you're just stating your subjective answer to the conditional needed to generalize the prescription, namely If you want to quench your thirst. Really you've just made an objective factual statement that you have a subjective desire. So in this way the point of the problem still remains in that morality must be rooted in subjective desires. It doesn't really matter that you can phrase a statement to get you from Is to Ought by saying that you have such a desire.

Now, which one of these statements can't science access? Actually none of them. What pure science alone can't do is move from them to the prescription, therefore you ought drink the water. Because that move is a philosophical entailment of the relationship between a desire and a prescription (I can elaborate here if you want), not a scientific entailment. Just try to think of a scientific experiment that could prove that, given those three statements, you ought drink the water. It's simply not possible.

"Scientism"? ...really? You just slap an "-ism" at the end of anything and make it sound scary and bad. Science is neither, that's just absurd. And that term was only used by Dre as a slander against me, not anything self described. I'm not obligated to hold to any of its connotations. He also insinuated that I perform homosexual acts on science, but I don't suppose you think I do that too?
Scientism is an actual word I didn't just throw the ism there randomly to make it "scary and bad" (as if all words of that suffix are scary and bad!:awesome:). I actually ascertained you being a scientismist not by Dre, but because in the other thread you were defending the position that science is the only useful/meaningful way to investigate the world, which is scientism.
 

AltF4

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Messages
5,042
Location
2.412 – 2.462 GHz
Underdogs:

It depends on the context. If you're making assertions about the state of the universe, then science is the way to go. I don't know how else to do it. Revelation? Just sitting in a corner and thinking? Not very reliable.

When someone comes to me and tells me that an invisible sky monster has told them personally that homosexuality is immoral and we must make it illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask: "And where is your evidence that this invisible sky monster even exists?"

I fail to see how that makes me suddenly unqualified to ever make arguments for changing legislation, as you say.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
I actually agree that science is the only way to determine things about the universe. It's just that I believe this because of philosophy.

I don't consider morality to be a property of the universe itself though.
 

Aesir

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
4,253
Location
Cts inconsistant antagonist
Any form of legalization will be safer obviously - since the control will be out of the hands of criminals. It's just that regulations will make the product more expensive for businesses and consumers, and won't improve safety.
Business's don't create safe products, unless it's going to give them a better profit over all. IE GM in the 1960's.


The problem isn't concentration, it's the variance in concentration. A company who puts a highly concentrated drug will label it as such - that will make them more money. And the concentration will be consistent, so users will be less likely to OD.
Not gonna argue this cause it's pretty obvious it's true, however it should come with warning labels for first time users if the concentration is very high. (like in cigarettes ect..)



Read what I said again. Tobacco doesn't randomly kill you. It draws out the process over a long time, during which you are still making money for the tobacco company. If you want to ban tobacco or something then it looks like it's time to ban lasagna too.
Drugs don't randomly kill you either, unless you're really dumb and take them like you're Jack Nicholson. Why are you applying the banning argument to me? I never said I wanted to ban any of these, I'm simply stating companies do not have your best interest at heart. As you seem to think.


According to what you are saying the Soviet Union should have been economically successful.
Soviet Union was unsuccessful because they controlled all the means of production, I never supported this since I've been in the DH that having the government sell and produce everything is a good idea. In fact I've argued against that notion quit a lot. Preferring free market economics to socialism or communism. (definitely prefer it to the latter.) I've always advocated for mixed market economies.



If that isn't your argument, please elaborate on the difference. Why is government production of drugs a good thing, while government production of TVs is a bad thing?
I thought about it a lot the past few days so I can safely say I may have jumped the gun a bit, it's probably not that great of an idea, if a state does something well it certainly worth looking into. But it doesn't mean the fed would be good at it, the country is to large to socialize any industry, very few industries I would argue would be more efficient if they were run by the government.

I just wanted to make it clear that painted communism on me is a pretty bad mistake on your part.

Edit: Like I said after thinking about it more I'm mostly in agreement with you, about legalizing. So I'll just stop at saying we agree on that and just drop it because I lost interest in this topic. =(


In other news Doctor Kevorkian died. So lets talk about assisted suicide!
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
Business's don't create safe products, unless it's going to give them a better profit over all. IE GM in the 1960's.
But safe products do make you more money over time. If you make really unsafe products, when people find out they tend to stop buying them. Or you get sued.

Drugs don't randomly kill you either, unless you're really dumb and take them like you're Jack Nicholson. Why are you applying the banning argument to me? I never said I wanted to ban any of these, I'm simply stating companies do not have your best interest at heart. As you seem to think.
An overdose is what would randomly kill you. That's what I was referring to.

I just wanted to make it clear that painted communism on me is a pretty bad mistake on your part.
Just FYI, I was not actually saying you support Soviet Union style socialism. I was just taking what you said to its logical conclusion.
 

Aesir

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
4,253
Location
Cts inconsistant antagonist
But safe products do make you more money over time. If you make really unsafe products, when people find out they tend to stop buying them. Or you get sued.
I may have been inclined to believe this if public perception couldn't be manipulated by the news which most corporations have a stake in now. A good example is GE tax dodging that went largely unreported even by MSNBC (who happens to be owned by GE)

Large companies rarely get sued now because they can afford a large legal team and avoid it. Not to mention judges these days are far more activist than in the past, a lot of them viewing the law in their own ideological terms even if precedent contradicts it.

Just FYI, I was not actually saying you support Soviet Union style socialism. I was just taking what you said to its logical conclusion.
Well that's good you weren't implying it. Government can sell things without the end result being communism, there is a line we can say we do not cross.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
Please do.
Well, to desire something entails that if you could get it, then you would. Now, given in these statements is that you can drink water to quench your thirst, and since you desire not to be thirsty, rationally you therefore ought to drink water, as you satisfy both conditions of wanting your thirst quenched and being able to do it by drinking water. That is how the ought is rationally entailed.

@Alt: One thing I find funny is how you keep making snide remarks about theism whenever you talk to me, as if I am one...
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
Well, to desire something entails that if you could get it, then you would. Now, given in these statements is that you can drink water to quench your thirst, and since you desire not to be thirsty, rationally you therefore ought to drink water, as you satisfy both conditions of wanting your thirst quenched and being able to do it by drinking water. That is how the ought is rationally entailed.
I'm not getting the meaning of "rationally you therefore ought to drink water." It seems to come out of no where. Can you explain without using the terms ought and rationally. It kind of defeats the purpose of explaining a concept to simply repeat the name of the concept.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
I'm not getting the meaning of "rationally you therefore ought to drink water." It seems to come out of no where. Can you explain without using the terms ought and rationally. It kind of defeats the purpose of explaining a concept to simply repeat the name of the concept.
I'm not sure how much more simply I can state it than this. Let me try to clarify here by putting my reasoning into a syllogism.

1. To desire a given outcome x entails that you would actualize x if you could.
2. You can actualize x by doing y.
3. Therefore you ought do y.

Let me try to come at this from a different angle. The prescriptive ought here isn't acting as a kind of rule or law that you might be thinking of. It's acting more like a prescription a doctor would give you to cure an illness. A doctor gives you tells you what you should do to get rid of the illness. Now if you want to get rid of the illness, you ought to take the medicine in order to be cured.

Or let me try to phrase this presuppositionally. The only deeper conditional that's needed for this argument is, If you want to satisfy your desires, then you ought do y. But that already presupposes the validity of the If-Ought entailment, so we can just skip that conditional and go straight to the direct conditional If-Ought statement.

Basically what I'm trying to say here is, you should do x in order to accomplish y. Do you desire y? If yes, then you should do x.

Am I just rambling or was any of that coherent?
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
My only concern is that this seems to be true by definition. I don't mind philosophy being given the role of defining words, but I thought that it was being extolled for doing more than semantics. I would happily concede that defining words is not the domain of science, but then again, defining words is not a source of understanding anything. Where is the gap that can only be crossed by philosophy that involves more than defining words or is philosophy merely about defining words?
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
Some of that argument is definitional but most of it I'd say is logical.

You have to remember that philosophy generally just the study of the fundamental nature of reality and that therefore everything you do in attempts to gain knowledge is philosophy, including science. Science is a subset of philosophy. Generally science can provide raw empirical data about the material universe, but to draw conclusions about that data and how it corresponds to reality requires more than science.

It can be hard to see how pure philosophy can generate new information beyond definitions if you've never rigorously followed a specific philosophical debate. One of the best debates to look into is the god debate. This is because the god debate can involve into so many different branches of philosophy such as epistemology, ethics, the philosophy of time, the philosophy of the mind, modal logic, causality, induction, realism vs anti-realism, the philosophy of nothing (okay that's not an official branch of philosophy I just made up that name but the concept of "nothing" is explored), and many others.

Edit: First post in the DH or PG in almost 5 days.:awesome:
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,289
Location
Icerim Mountains
It's summer, people are like, at the beach and ****. I guess we could debate about the effects of sand erosion on the North American Least Tern. No, let's not actually.
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
underdog said:
You have to remember that philosophy generally just the study of the fundamental nature of reality and that therefore everything you do in attempts to gain knowledge is philosophy, including science. Science is a subset of philosophy.
OK, I’m taking the slice of philosophy that is science and lambasting the rest of the pie.
underdog said:
Generally science can provide raw empirical data about the material universe, but to draw conclusions about that data and how it corresponds to reality requires more than science.
So you think that scientists merely collect data and never create hypotheses and test their hypotheses by experiment? Really? I wonder how you are able to divorce science from the scientific method; they seem to be perfect bedfellows. I think I have asked this question before; what more is required other than mere definitions? I still haven’t found a way of defining ought without it being true by definition or referring to empirical observations.
underdog said:
It can be hard to see how pure philosophy can generate new information beyond definitions if you've never rigorously followed a specific philosophical debate. One of the best debates to look into is the god debate.
I don’t think the areas you mention support this. In fact, I think that they exemplify what I have been saying. The topic of ethics is a perfect example. Define “good” in utilitarian terms and then good is directly determined by science. Define “good” in divine command theory terms and then what is good is based on empirical facts (Does God exist and what are his commands?) that can be investigated by science. Define terms, and then bunt to science. Where is the new information that is found from pure philosophy?

Different theories of time are discussed in physics with some having better empirical basis than others; what new information has pure philosophy brought to the table? Nothingness is mainly just wordplay, no new information. For epistemology, you can either define knowledge as justified true belief or by reliabilism. If defined via reliabilism, then science can decide the best epistemic process. If by justified true belief, how do you determine whether something is true or not (in order to add new information), by science? On this definition, no information is added past the definition. Realism and anti-realism probably falls nicely into science once you define what is real and what is not, and if not, and then it probably provides no new information. Induction is a label to certain forms of inferences; I don’t see how this adds any new information about reality unless you are speaking about the inductive process known as science. Model logic doesn’t give us any new information by pure philosophy, unless we feed empirical facts into it. The same applies to any other form of logic. I’m not sure what new information you think philosophy of mind has given us, but considering our knowledge in cognitive science is starkly bare, I don’t think it would be too adventurous to guess not much. As for causality, how would you define it?
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
OK, I’m taking the slice of philosophy that is science and lambasting the rest of the pie.So you think that scientists merely collect data and never create hypotheses and test their hypotheses by experiment? Really? I wonder how you are able to divorce science from the scientific method; they seem to be perfect bedfellows. I think I have asked this question before; what more is required other than mere definitions? I still haven’t found a way of defining ought without it being true by definition or referring to empirical observations.
I don’t think the areas you mention support this. In fact, I think that they exemplify what I have been saying. The topic of ethics is a perfect example. Define “good” in utilitarian terms and then good is directly determined by science. Define “good” in divine command theory terms and then what is good is based on empirical facts (Does God exist and what are his commands?) that can be investigated by science. Define terms, and then bunt to science. Where is the new information that is found from pure philosophy?

Different theories of time are discussed in physics with some having better empirical basis than others; what new information has pure philosophy brought to the table? Nothingness is mainly just wordplay, no new information. For epistemology, you can either define knowledge as justified true belief or by reliabilism. If defined via reliabilism, then science can decide the best epistemic process. If by justified true belief, how do you determine whether something is true or not (in order to add new information), by science? On this definition, no information is added past the definition. Realism and anti-realism probably falls nicely into science once you define what is real and what is not, and if not, and then it probably provides no new information. Induction is a label to certain forms of inferences; I don’t see how this adds any new information about reality unless you are speaking about the inductive process known as science. Model logic doesn’t give us any new information by pure philosophy, unless we feed empirical facts into it. The same applies to any other form of logic. I’m not sure what new information you think philosophy of mind has given us, but considering our knowledge in cognitive science is starkly bare, I don’t think it would be too adventurous to guess not much. As for causality, how would you define it?
how do you know you exist?

plenty of philosophy is discussing different theories of the world that we can't do experiments on and arguing which matches up best with our experience.

Here's another example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox

We usually model things in terms of expected value but the St Petersburg paradox is an argument that this is incorrect. Note that this gamble cannot be offered empirically because it would require infinite funds.



I've seen it argued that Godel's theorem implies humans are not machines, because humans can recognize the truth of (if not formally prove) Godel sentences like "this statement is unprovable", while a machine could only recognize what it can prove. I've seen arguments for mathematical intuitionism based on the examination of the inner workings of the mind. Here's another question - why do we prefer to perceive things as a Euclidean geometry? Or how about the idea that Skolem's paradox implies that there aren't really any uncountable sets?

Random question do any of the yanks here live near San Francisco area?
yes although I'm currently in New York
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
ballin said:
How do you know you exist?
Define “know,” “you,” and “exist.” If you bring in any other terminology, define those as well.

As per your examples: As soon as you say “Note that this gamble cannot be offered empirically because it would require infinite funds,” you are no longer in the discussion. Investigating something that can’t be done in reality does not give us any insight into reality.
I've seen it argued that Godel's theorem implies humans are not machines, because humans can recognize the truth of (if not formally prove) Godel sentences like "this statement is unprovable", while a machine could only recognize what it can prove.
I’ve seen many things “argued:” that our imagination implies disembodied minds, that crop circles and ancient pictures imply extraterrestrial visitors, that animals can’t plan for the future, that evolution can’t select for creatures with rational faculties, etc. Where is the evidence for these claims? Without testing them, how do we know whether they are more likely true than false?

The first computer was created less than six decades ago and now, in their infancy (compared to how long humans have been teaching humans), they outperform humans in numerous intellectual tasks. To take one task and tote it as special is no different than what religious figures did when trying to determine our taxonomic status. We have art, music, technology, and since animals are incapable of creating these things, in addition to lacking reason and being automata, we must not be related to them. While this does give us some insight into the anthropomorphic hubris of some people, it goes no further to answer the original question. In order to do that, I suspect you would need to define what you mean by machine. Once you do that, it is as simple as applying a definition to an empirical object. I think for most definitions of machine, we would be classified as a machine; we are molecular machines. Once again, philosophy is delegated the task of semantics.
Here's another question - why do we prefer to perceive things as a Euclidean geometry?
I have three hypotheses. One, we are taught Euclidean geometry to a greater extent in school. Two, it is useful for navigating because the earth is locally flat. Third, it is or is dependent on an evolutionary adaptive trait that predisposes us to it. These are all testable hypotheses that can be validated or disconfirmed via science. I fail to see the relevance of the question because the only way I can conceive of answering the question relies on science.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
You realize that the only way to define words (at least through this medium of communication) is through words, right?

By the way, I'm pretty sure philosophy of language is a big topic too, but I don't know anything about it.


On gambles - do you deny that hypothetical situations can be useful? It's not possible for the Earth to be flat in reality, but we can imagine it. Do you think it's impossible to come up with a conclusion about the infinite gamble? I know I wouldn't accept it if it were possible for it to exist. Likewise, if I were able to flip a fair coin infinitely many times, I would not bet that heads will come up more than tails.

P.S. - how do you really know infinite funds are impossible? Your position already is that nothing is certain.

Also how in the world can you test any of those Euclidean geometry hypotheses?


Here's another one: why is it that, mathematically, we can divide a sphere into 5 pieces, and then put those 5 pieces back together again to make 2 spheres (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach–Tarski_paradox)? What does this tell us about the applicability of mathematics to the "real world"? If it isn't always clear when mathematics can be applied to the real world, then how do you know you can apply probability theory?
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
ballin said:
You realize that the only way to define words (at least through this medium of communication) is through words, right?
Yes. All I am saying is don’t transfer the ambiguity into other terms. If you say that knowledge is justified true belief, define what counts as justified. If you say that something is justified if it meets an appropriate burden of proof, then you have not clarified anything and have simply shifted the ambiguity to a new term. If you say that something exists is something that is part of reality, then define what reality is or what counts as real. Use this rule of thumb, if it is debated in philosophical circles, then define it unambiguously, we can sort out the rest. For example, if we define “I” as a particular grouping of molecules. In this case, “I” is possible to not “exist,” even if I can think. Under this definition of “I,” Descartes argument of “I think, therefore I am,” would be invalid. This is why clarity, even on the simplest words such as “I,” make all the difference and need to be defined unambiguously.
Also how in the world can you test any of those Euclidean geometry hypotheses?
If it is because of education styles, then it will differ from civilized vs. tribal communities or have half the schools teach only non-Euclidean geometry and the other half Euclidean geometry and then compare the results. To differentiate between genetic and environmental, you can raise someone up in a sphere (or wait until we become an interstellar species and raise children on a planet that is not locally flat) and then ask them to sum the interior angles of a triangle. If they answer 180 degrees, then it’s genetic, if they answer more than 180 degrees, then the environment would have influenced them. Note: I did not say that the experiment would be easy or ethical, but they are scientific in principle.
On gambles - do you deny that hypothetical situations can be useful? It's not possible for the Earth to be flat in reality, but we can imagine it. Do you think it's impossible to come up with a conclusion about the infinite gamble?
They could be good at conveying ideas in the same way an analogy is or at clarifying definitions. However, I don’t think that they are useful in discovering new information about reality. I don’t think it is possible for the solution of the infinite gamble to increase our understanding of reality. Anything past this is irrelevant since we would no longer be talking about reality and therefore would not increase our understanding of reality.
P.S. - how do you really know infinite funds are impossible? Your position already is that nothing is certain.
This is why I asked you to define knowledge. I maintain that you needn’t be (absolutely) certain to have knowledge of something. I don’t find the definition of justified true belief to be a useful definition of knowledge.
What does this tell us about the applicability of mathematics to the "real world"?
You have to evaluate the axioms or assumptions that the conclusions rely on. The reason for paradoxes is because either your or the mathematical steps used to reach the conclusion are invalid. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, then the assumptions are incorrect and the conclusions made from those assumptions are compromised. This would be the same response to any form of mathematics presented, which is why all this discussion of paradoxes is largely irrelevant. Just curious, do you doubt the viability of arithmetic in the real world? How do you know that X+0=X? What does this tell us about the applicability of mathematics in the “real world”?
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
Yes. All I am saying is don’t transfer the ambiguity into other terms. If you say that knowledge is justified true belief, define what counts as justified. If you say that something is justified if it meets an appropriate burden of proof, then you have not clarified anything and have simply shifted the ambiguity to a new term. If you say that something exists is something that is part of reality, then define what reality is or what counts as real. Use this rule of thumb, if it is debated in philosophical circles, then define it unambiguously, we can sort out the rest. For example, if we define “I” as a particular grouping of molecules. In this case, “I” is possible to not “exist,” even if I can think. Under this definition of “I,” Descartes argument of “I think, therefore I am,” would be invalid. This is why clarity, even on the simplest words such as “I,” make all the difference and need to be defined unambiguously.
Kinda hard to do that though, wouldn't you say? I'd think you could always point to some ambiguity - e.g. what do you mean by molecules, what do you mean by grouping, what do you mean by particular, etc.

Like I said though, there is the field of philosophy of language which is presumably concerned with these issues. I think the only thing I remember from briefly talking to someone in that field was that he asked the question "when you refer to 'Santa Claus', what are you referring to?" I guess it was something to do with wondering how you can use words to refer to something that doesn't exist.

If it is because of education styles, then it will differ from civilized vs. tribal communities or have half the schools teach only non-Euclidean geometry and the other half Euclidean geometry and then compare the results. To differentiate between genetic and environmental, you can raise someone up in a sphere (or wait until we become an interstellar species and raise children on a planet that is not locally flat) and then ask them to sum the interior angles of a triangle. If they answer 180 degrees, then it’s genetic, if they answer more than 180 degrees, then the environment would have influenced them. Note: I did not say that the experiment would be easy or ethical, but they are scientific in principle.
I don't think these particular experiments will work, but I don't really want to debate the details.

Instead I'm going to question where the supposed divide between "science" and "non-science philosophy" is. Because I think it's still possible to debate this question without running these or any other experiments. Would you consider this science? Obviously all this debate will be doing is looking at the small amount of evidence that we do have available, but that seems like science according to your definition. I think most people would be more inclined to call it philosophy though.

They could be good at conveying ideas in the same way an analogy is or at clarifying definitions. However, I don’t think that they are useful in discovering new information about reality. I don’t think it is possible for the solution of the infinite gamble to increase our understanding of reality. Anything past this is irrelevant since we would no longer be talking about reality and therefore would not increase our understanding of reality.
If Einstein listened to you maybe he would never have taken a ride on that ray of light :p

I'm still not entirely sure what you're saying though. Are all "impossible" situations useless? I mean, at the least we could study what people say their reactions would be - like in all those crazy moral dilemmas where you have to pull a lever to kill one guy instead of twenty. And we can likely generalize from some of these thought experiments or hypothetical situations to situations that DO happen.

This is why I asked you to define knowledge. I maintain that you needn’t be (absolutely) certain to have knowledge of something. I don’t find the definition of justified true belief to be a useful definition of knowledge.
I don't see the problem. You can just apply it to the "meta-knowledge". Even if we can't know 100% that X is true, we can know that, given our evidence, X is more likely to be true than false.

An interesting question embedded there is whether all knowledge is mathematical/logical. Maybe all knowledge is of the form "given probability model X, Y is likely" - which is more of a mathematical statement.

You have to evaluate the axioms or assumptions that the conclusions rely on. The reason for paradoxes is because either your or the mathematical steps used to reach the conclusion are invalid. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, then the assumptions are incorrect and the conclusions made from those assumptions are compromised. This would be the same response to any form of mathematics presented, which is why all this discussion of paradoxes is largely irrelevant. Just curious, do you doubt the viability of arithmetic in the real world? How do you know that X+0=X? What does this tell us about the applicability of mathematics in the “real world”?
I disagree. Mathematical truths are true regardless of whether they "agree" with the real world.

Of course, WHICH axioms to use to describe the real world can be considered an empirical matter.

Also, the Banach-Tarski paradox is perfectly consistent with experiments and will be until you have an experiment that can chop things up into non measurable sets (which of course is probably impossible). There's actually some philosophical debate about whether the real numbers are represented in reality at all (although most people would concede the natural numbers).

Also, I know X+0=X based on the definitions of the symbols involved. If you break it all down to the definitions and axioms it's a tautology.
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
ballin,
I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request to ask someone to define their terms. Do you think that Descartes argument is valid? Well, it depends on how you define his terms. What exactly does the “I” stand for? It is unclear. If we are in the matrix, then the molecular version of "me" would be an illusion, so what would the “I” refer to in that case? This confusion results from ill-defined terms, so I want to get that out of the way from the beginning. Defining molecules is easy in comparison.

Concerning why we assume Euclidean geometry, I would be interested if you could sketch what it would look like to argue why that is the case. Also state why the particular route you take is the most likely explanation. Just a note, I don’t doubt that you are able to “debate” this topic without any evidence; the question is whether that debate will yield anything useful. The outcome will depend on the quality and quantity of evidence available to you. If you "debate" using limited evidence and make a conclusion that is more than just a slight endorsement of one over the other, then I would be very intrigued as how you would justify that conclusion.

A hypothetical by itself does not help us discover things about the world. They tell us what it should be like given a certain proposition to be true. Einstein, by engaging in his thought experiment, was able to figure out what would happen if his assumptions were correct. It is not until the idea was tested did we discover anything about the world. A hypothetical would be like a hypothesis, and I see no reason why a hypothesis would give us any insight in understanding the world when it has yet to be tested.

When we study peoples reaction’s to a certain hypothetical, we are not studying “impossible” situations, we are studying people. The only way that I know of to use the results in order to learn about the participants would be to use the scientific method. We are basically trying to figure out what heuristics people use when deciding what is moral so there would be a hypothesis for each heuristic. There would be a utilitarian heuristic, a Kant heuristic, etc. and each heuristic has different responses for the questions being considered. In order to test each hypothesis, you can ask these questions and use the responses to confirm or disconfirm particular hypotheses. Suppose you offer the hospital harvest the organs of one person to save 5 people scenario, and I choose the option where the person gets to keep their organs, what can you generalize from this about my heuristic as it pertains to ethical evaluations, why, and how does this differ from the scientific method?

I find it odd that you say that the Banach-Tarski paradox is consistent with experiment and then say that the conditions necessary to test it are probably impossible to achieve. To me, this is a paradox. How do you test (meaning that it has the possibility of being false) the relation X->Y when you don’t have the condition X? Remember, the only way it can be proven false is if the result is X->-Y, so it would need the condition to be satisfied in order to be tested. Either your claim is contradictory or you mean “consistent with experiment” meaning that it has never been tested and therefore has not had any data contrary to it, for the mere fact that there has been no data collected regarding it. That seems to be a very weak claim, so forgive me for not thinking it is the obvious intention. What is the point you are trying to make by bringing up these paradoxes?
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,289
Location
Icerim Mountains
*What you SHOULD NOT use this room for:
-Inappropriate posts such as the ones mentioned above.
-Asking whether a thread exists (use the search function)
-Discussing topics that are worthy of a debate thread. If you want to discuss a topic worthy of a debate thread, just make a regular thread.
-Breaking any of the rules mentioned above.​

Credit for rules go to Zero Beat and KrazyGlue
Though BPC is correct I hate to say it, I'm enjoying the discussion, and at least we have -some- activity in here.

But if the objections start to mount then I'll suggest someone make a topic and move the appropriate posts into it.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
You guys know that this is a serious complaint, right?
Coming from the guy with massive walls of text about how religion is wrong?

ballin,
I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request to ask someone to define their terms. Do you think that Descartes argument is valid? Well, it depends on how you define his terms. What exactly does the “I” stand for? It is unclear. If we are in the matrix, then the molecular version of "me" would be an illusion, so what would the “I” refer to in that case? This confusion results from ill-defined terms, so I want to get that out of the way from the beginning. Defining molecules is easy in comparison.
No, I understand the problem with definitions. I think it applies to nearly anything.

I have seen before that particular criticism of Descartes' argument. The person said it should be rephrased as "Though occurs, therefore something exists". Now, for Descartes in particular though I think I understand what he is talking about. By "I" he means his mind or consciousness. Now I'm sure you can ask what is the mind or what is consciousness, but I at least feel like I understand at least that part.

Concerning why we assume Euclidean geometry, I would be interested if you could sketch what it would look like to argue why that is the case. Also state why the particular route you take is the most likely explanation. Just a note, I don’t doubt that you are able to “debate” this topic without any evidence; the question is whether that debate will yield anything useful. The outcome will depend on the quality and quantity of evidence available to you. If you "debate" using limited evidence and make a conclusion that is more than just a slight endorsement of one over the other, then I would be very intrigued as how you would justify that conclusion.
I never said we could get anything more than a slight endorsement of one over the other (maybe we could get more, but I never said we could certainly get more).

This particular debate is driven by evidence, but because of the form that evidence takes (not the result of a controlled experiment) I don't think "science" will jump to mind for most people.

So really it depends on what you mean by useful. I'd consider it "useful" to know that our current evidence and perceptions point to explanation X - even if it would be much more certain if we could run some crazy experiment that would tell us even more.

A hypothetical by itself does not help us discover things about the world. They tell us what it should be like given a certain proposition to be true. Einstein, by engaging in his thought experiment, was able to figure out what would happen if his assumptions were correct. It is not until the idea was tested did we discover anything about the world. A hypothetical would be like a hypothesis, and I see no reason why a hypothesis would give us any insight in understanding the world when it has yet to be tested.
I think there was significant evidence for Einstein's theories before we could ever test things like length contraction or whatever. The reason is that previously there were two branches of physics which had some inconsistencies, and Einstein's theories rectified those inconsistencies. Thus Einstein's theories were more likely than the physics before him. Sure, experimental confirmation is way way better, but his theories were still worth something even beforehand.

When we study peoples reaction’s to a certain hypothetical, we are not studying “impossible” situations, we are studying people. The only way that I know of to use the results in order to learn about the participants would be to use the scientific method. We are basically trying to figure out what heuristics people use when deciding what is moral so there would be a hypothesis for each heuristic. There would be a utilitarian heuristic, a Kant heuristic, etc. and each heuristic has different responses for the questions being considered. In order to test each hypothesis, you can ask these questions and use the responses to confirm or disconfirm particular hypotheses. Suppose you offer the hospital harvest the organs of one person to save 5 people scenario, and I choose the option where the person gets to keep their organs, what can you generalize from this about my heuristic as it pertains to ethical evaluations, why, and how does this differ from the scientific method?
I never said it does? I was just saying that hypotheticals can be useful. Like the infinite gamble. It shows that people probably don't make decisions purely on expected value. I'm sure there are more conclusions you could draw if you thought about it.

I find it odd that you say that the Banach-Tarski paradox is consistent with experiment and then say that the conditions necessary to test it are probably impossible to achieve. To me, this is a paradox. How do you test (meaning that it has the possibility of being false) the relation X->Y when you don’t have the condition X? Remember, the only way it can be proven false is if the result is X->-Y, so it would need the condition to be satisfied in order to be tested. Either your claim is contradictory or you mean “consistent with experiment” meaning that it has never been tested and therefore has not had any data contrary to it, for the mere fact that there has been no data collected regarding it. That seems to be a very weak claim, so forgive me for not thinking it is the obvious intention. What is the point you are trying to make by bringing up these paradoxes?
"Consistent with experiment" simply means there hasn't been an experiment showing it to be false.

My point is this paradox results from use of the real numbers. It might not be justified to use the real numbers at all to describe the world.

The question I was asking then is how do you know you can use probability to describe the world?
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
ballin said:
This particular debate is driven by evidence, but because of the form that evidence takes (not the result of a controlled experiment) I don't think "science" will jump to mind for most people.
Geology, astronomy, and evolution (as it pertains to the fossil record and tracing ERVs) don’t have controlled experiment yet are included in the sciences. All that is required for science is the scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test that hypothesis, and see what the results mean for that hypothesis. Controlled experiment is simply an approach we take to eliminate competing hypotheses that we are not interested in. As I see it, the only way someone could deny that it is science would be to be ignorant of the scientific method or to think that the scientific method is not a defining characteristic of science. In either case, I would consider them to be in error.
I have seen before that particular criticism of Descartes' argument. The person said it should be rephrased as "Though occurs, therefore something exists". Now, for Descartes in particular though I think I understand what he is talking about. By "I" he means his mind or consciousness. Now I'm sure you can ask what is the mind or what is consciousness, but I at least feel like I understand at least that part.
Considering that Descartes was a dualist, if we find out that the mind is simply a physical process, then his argument would be unsound. To make it valid, we would need to make it empirical data exists, therefore, something exists (namely empirical data). Whatever is interpreting that data is physical or not or conscious or not does not follow logically. Does this give us any new information about reality that we didn’t know before? No, we already know empirical data exists and his argument simply repeats that observation. So, now that we have determined that this is in line with what I have been saying, what is the point to be made here, what was the point of asking the question originally?
BPC said:
...

Tl;dr.
Then change the topic. What do you want to discuss?
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
Geology, astronomy, and evolution (as it pertains to the fossil record and tracing ERVs) don’t have controlled experiment yet are included in the sciences. All that is required for science is the scientific method. Develop a hypothesis, test that hypothesis, and see what the results mean for that hypothesis. Controlled experiment is simply an approach we take to eliminate competing hypotheses that we are not interested in. As I see it, the only way someone could deny that it is science would be to be ignorant of the scientific method or to think that the scientific method is not a defining characteristic of science. In either case, I would consider them to be in error.
My issue is with "test". You apparently don't agree that looking at past evidence is "testing". I think it is. I think doing controlled experiments is better, but past evidence can also be very useful.

Given that I'm not entirely sure how you support evolution. Have you tested the hypothesis that species evolve from others? Particularly that humans evolved from other mammals (oh dear god am I starting another evolution debate?)

Considering that Descartes was a dualist, if we find out that the mind is simply a physical process, then his argument would be unsound. To make it valid, we would need to make it empirical data exists, therefore, something exists (namely empirical data). Whatever is interpreting that data is physical or not or conscious or not does not follow logically. Does this give us any new information about reality that we didn’t know before? No, we already know empirical data exists and his argument simply repeats that observation. So, now that we have determined that this is in line with what I have been saying, what is the point to be made here, what was the point of asking the question originally?
Descartes' argument is a much stronger argument for things existing than any other ... in fact, I'm not even sure what you're talking about. What other evidence do you have for things existing? You have to think first before you can make any other observations.

It also doesn't matter whether the mind is the result of a physical process.
 

rvkevin

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
1,188
ballin said:
My issue is with "test". You apparently don't agree that looking at past evidence is "testing".
Was there a prediction made? If yes, it doesn’t matter when the data was collected. The reason why I place a high preference for predictions over post-dictions is the same reason why we have double-blinded experiments: failing to do so introduces biases/lets us be biased. When you force someone to make predictions, they are forced to take a position, which shows that it was an actual test and that they are not being biased. Otherwise, they can simply say after observing the result regardless of the result, yes, that makes perfect sense under theism, what a great prediction. Now this is an extreme example, but knowing the result does influence us (see hindsight bias). I am trying to screen this bias out of the process, but you seem to be happy to embrace it.
Given that I'm not entirely sure how you support evolution. Have you tested the hypothesis that species evolve from others? Particularly that humans evolved from other mammals (oh dear god am I starting another evolution debate?)
Yes, it’s been tested. See here for details. What's your issue with the theory of evolution that would spark a "debate" about it?
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
OK, I’m taking the slice of philosophy that is science and lambasting the rest of the pie.
Whatever "lambasting" of the rest of the pie you do it will not change the piece of pie to being anything other than part of the pie, fundamentally constituted by the substance of "pie".

So you think that scientists merely collect data and never create hypotheses and test their hypotheses by experiment? Really? I wonder how you are able to divorce science from the scientific method; they seem to be perfect bedfellows.
What is being done when a scientist creates a hypothesis meant to be a universal law is inductive reasoning, and as I'm sure I've stated before, induction cannot be justified by science, we assume induction for epistemic purposes.

I don’t think the areas you mention support this. In fact, I think that they exemplify what I have been saying.
Let me go through and give examples of what philosophy has added in regards to each of these topics. I can't actually flesh out all of the arguments in regards to each of these topics (it would take too long), so for most of them I'll just refer you to the actual work or a summary of it.

The topic of ethics is a perfect example. Define “good” in utilitarian terms and then good is directly determined by science.
I've repeatedly made it clear that I hold descriptive ethics to be purely definitional, hence why I find it so useless. Where philosophical reasoning comes in during ethics is in prescriptive ethics. Science is always descriptive and never prescriptive. I've argued against objective prescriptions by using the philosophical Is-Ought Problem, and attempts to derive an Ought from an Is are always done philosophically, such as egoism, the categorical imperative, or a Searlian derivation.

Define “good” in divine command theory terms and then what is good is based on empirical facts (Does God exist and what are his commands?) that can be investigated by science.
As a note here I don't think that the existence of god can be proven or disproven solely empirically, because god is claimed as existing outside of the universe and thus transcends empirical observation. Indeed the existence of god rests on the topics named that we are discussing here, so if I am correct about these other areas of dispute, that philosophy derives new facts about them, then it would also be true that philosophy is involved in discussing the existence of god.

Additionally, I think even if god exists, there is still no objective prescriptive theistic ethics and my reasons for doing so are philosophical. You can see these in my thread The Is Ought Problem, Theistic Morality, and If Ought Moral Rationality and the ensuing debate with DanteFox.

Different theories of time are discussed in physics with some having better empirical basis than others; what new information has pure philosophy brought to the table?
From what I understand, science has gotten its view of time (B-Theory) from Einstein's physical interpretation of the theory of general relativity, however there is an alternate view of time (A-theory) which springs from Lorentz's interpretation. These are empirically equivalent and thus settling the dispute lies beyond the realm of science. Philosophy can serve as an ample "tie-breaker" here because there is a rich debate on the nature of time and I'll just refer you to an overview of some of the philosophical considerations in this field.

Nothingness is mainly just wordplay, no new information.
Not so, I think that purely philosophically I can derive facts about "nothing" that are not purely definitional. The definition of nothing is the absence of any positive reality, the absence of something. From this definition I think I can prove that it is possible that the universe came into being out of nothing. For the lack of any positive reality entails that there can be no rules, no order, no principles or laws by which nothingness is held to, there is no causality. So to say that something could not come into being out of nothing is to impose a rule, a law on nothingness which is absurd because there are no laws governing nothingness. Hence it is possible that something can come into being out of nothing. Big bang cosmology tells us the universe began as an extremely dense mass of matter called the singularity. Because anything at all can come of out of nothing, there is no law to restrict what can come out of it, the singularity, and thus the universe, could have come into being out of nothing.

And because the universe is something, and we have no empirical access to anything outside of or beyond the universe, we cannot empirically study nothingness.

For epistemology, you can either define knowledge as justified true belief or by reliabilism. If defined via reliabilism, then science can decide the best epistemic process. If by justified true belief, how do you determine whether something is true or not (in order to add new information), by science? On this definition, no information is added past the definition.
Knowledge just is defined as justified, true belief. That's not really the question or where the controversy lies. You can't define knowledge as reliabilism, reliabilism is a theory of knowledge, it tries to give an explanation for how we gain knowledge, it is not knowledge itself: Knowledge is not an epistemological position. The question answered by reliabilism is how we gain knowledge, and the argument for reliabilism being the true epistemology is a philosophical one, not a scientific one. There is no way to scientifically prove an epistemological position, science just is an applied epistemology itself. Furthermore I think that there are good philosophical reasons to reject reliabilism, but this could be whole debate by itself I'd refer you here to start.

Even if I were to grant both that reliabilism is true, and that it is true purely by definition, you would still need to argue that science is the reliable process by which we gain knowledge. Reliabilism only states that knowledge is gained by arriving at a belief through a reliable process, it does not state what process that is. And to argue that science is the reliable process, you would necessarily have to use philosophy if you are not to simply beg the question by arguing for science by already assuming and using science. Not that that is to grant that you could even make arguments of that type scientifically however, that argument would be outside of empirical access.

Realism and anti-realism probably falls nicely into science once you define what is real and what is not, and if not, and then it probably provides no new information.
You can't just define things into and out of reality (:glare:). It strikes me that you probably don't even know what the realism and ant-realism debate concerns. Here I will limit myself to the discussion of scientific realism, since it is most close to the subject at hand. Scientific realism is one of the biggest issues in the philosophy of science and concerns whether or not our scientific models are really accurate representations of reality, or whether or not we can know if our scientific models are accurate representations of reality. Again, all I will present you with here is a general overview of the topic, it is enough to know that this debate lies beyond the purview of science because it calls into question the very underpinnings of scientific laws and theories itself, such that it is impossible to argue scientifically about it.

Induction is a label to certain forms of inferences; I don’t see how this adds any new information about reality unless you are speaking about the inductive process known as science.
Yes I am talking about "the inductive process known as science" and you'd better hope that it adds new information about reality or else science is toast! Science relies on induction for its conclusions and thus to try to offer a scientific argument for induction would be making a circular argument equivalent to:

1. Induction
2. Therefore induction

This is beyond what science can do and therefore you'd better hope that we have some good philosophical justifications for induction.

Model logic doesn’t give us any new information by pure philosophy, unless we feed empirical facts into it. The same applies to any other form of logic.
Modal logic concerns the nature of the possible and the necessary. One way that we determine what is only contingently true and what is necessarily true is by using "possible worlds". A possible world is a maximum description of the way reality could be. Anything that is necessarily true is true in all possible worlds, anything that it is not true in all possible worlds is only contingently true. We only have empirical access to the actual world, so this too is beyond the scope of science. Unless you want to defend the contention that we get no new information by the use of modal logic then you have to grant that philosophy produces new information.

I’m not sure what new information you think philosophy of mind has given us, but considering our knowledge in cognitive science is starkly bare, I don’t think it would be too adventurous to guess not much.
Well perhaps you might be interested in some of the philosophical arguments for dualism, if they are true, dualism is true. You would agree that is new information, correct?

The Qualia Argument

Tying quite nicely with my previous segment to also show that modal logic can produce new information, here's a modal argument for dualism:

1. It is imaginable that one's mind might exist without one's body.
2. Therefore it is conceivable that one's mind might exist without one's body.
3. Therefore it is possible one's mind might exist without one's body.
4. Therefore one's mind is a different entity from one's body.

It is also argued philosophically that the incompleteness theorem and Turing's halting problem show that the mind cannot be purely physical.
 
Top Bottom