Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Ray_Kalm]

Ray I do agree with most of what you said, but I don't feel that that Luigi you played was a good representation. He wasn't being active enough or pressuring much and would just throw standing fireballs in neutral. I'm down to play if you want to lab the matchup to help with the discussion, with and without customs.

I do feel you're overstating how good fireball is though. The move can be annoying to deal with, but it's as simple as powershielding it. Opting for Flame Chain over default sideb isn't worth it imo because having that command grab is such a useful option to deal with shielding.

I don't believe fireballs are great projectiles in general, but against Ganon they are especially good if used properly.

And yeah, I'm down to play, later on today. Just send me your f/c, and is a few hours from now a good time for you? We will play a few non-custom battles first, and then let's move on to customs.

 

[ThunderSt0rm]

I'll have to play Luigisama sometime with Ganon to get a better view on fireball. I still believe the move isn't as much of a hindrance that it's being made out to be, especially with WDK.

Yea that should be fine.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Fought ThunderStorm's Luigi. I think we played about 9 to 11 non custom battles, and 3 custom battles.

Lost one game overall, a non-custom battle.

First off, Thunderstorm wasn't able to tech my gerudos. Luigi's non-custom recovery is horrible. It's slow, and predictable. It's not only a perfect bait to setup gimps, but you can time an edge takeover > backair, this can kill him early.

Luigi doesn't really have to approach Ganon, but if he were too, he has no real good option that can't be beat.

The few custom battles we played, I found myself not doing as well in. His recovery improves drastically to almost ungimpable. Flame chain is cancelled by fireballs, and is actually not a good choice at all. Luigi can just shield it > up + B. Never go flame chain against Luigis. Flame choke is the best forward B custom in this match-up, undoubtedly. I also think WDK is not good here, I don't think it'll be able to hit a high level Luigi often. I would prefer the normal wizard kick in this match-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Huh, well that's good to know.

Though you might consider WDK simply for recovery perhaps? Also aerial WDK is probably better than grounded WDK for approaches. I was also wondering if Shotgun Punch as a spacing tool was potentially worth it. It covers the air well, and against Luigi, it would not be unreasonably unsafe on block.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Huh, well that's good to know.

Though you might consider WDK simply for recovery perhaps? I was also wondering if Shotgun Punch as a spacing tool was potentially worth it.

Wizard foot will be much more beneficial. I don't think Luigi can gimp horizontal as well, only time to be worried is if you are off stage and low - WDK would not be helpful there anyway. Dark Fists (for up + b) would be a much better choice, super armour and a potential upper cut that kills (can't be hanging around too close to the ledge). It may be just me, but I think normal wizard foot is much better than WDK in certain match-ups, this one in particular. It's higher pushback compared to WDK's low pushback is very beneficial, WDK on low percentages will get you punished, so that shuts out an option for Ganon when he may need it most. Also, compared to WDK, Wizard foot in the air can restrict opponents vertically and a little bit diagonally below you, while WDK just gets you out of the way (with lag, and opponents can start playing beneath Ganondorf, we don't want that at all).

Basically, WDK is good. But it may not be the best choice against every character, and it really does depend on what custom moves your opponent may choose. You may want to go WDK against him/her if he goes that one custom move that works good against normal wizard foot, etc. A lot of guessing and understanding involved in custom move gameplays.

 

[ThunderSt0rm]

Default downb gave me a bit of trouble, but tbh Ganon needs WDK for recovery. In our non-custom games, I was unable to chase you offstage because I'm not able to recover from it. With customs, I can go pretty deep and feel very confident about making it back as Luigi. Thing is it's still somewhat difficult to do because I know to somewhat respect Ganon offstage.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

Okay, so here it is.

Luigi has things which could completely shut Ganon down. Out of the many good players distinctive characters I've fought so far, I had the hardest time against a Luigi.

Ganon has a very very tough time grabbing Luigi due to Luigi's relative safe moves on shield. Ganon's other moves are too slow to punish.

On top of this, Luigi's fireball are probably one of the best projectiles against Ganon in the game. Why? Think about it. First off, they come out relatively fast, and Luigi has only a few frames of lag (he will 95% of the time go unpunished). But more importantly, Luigi can just sit there and not only force Ganon to approach, but stay in shield and use mindgames to mess with Ganon. < What I just stated is the main problem in the entire match-up, that, Luigi literally gets another very powerful option against Ganon while staying in shield. Against many other characters, even including the two arrow shooting Pits, Ganon can change between his wizkick, gerudos, and dash attacks. But against Luigi, none of that would work. And to go on even further about those amazing fireballs, Ganon will lack safe aerial approaches. Luigi wants to force you in the air, and that's where he can either retreat and camp more, or dominate with his aerials.

Luigi's D-throw is somewhat similar to Ganons', with a lot of combos early on (which Ganon will have to take) the only way to truly break out of Luigi's early D-throw combos is to shift yourself after getting hit and time a Nair. Luigi's D-throw near the edge is what you really have to watch out for - if you shift horribly you can get a powerful spike which will kill you if you're around 55-65% or higher.

With all that said, let's get to where Ganon shines in this match-up. Luigi is very light. I mean very light. And we all know how hard Ganon hits but against very light characters like Luigi, you will kill him early of course. Moves that wouldn't kill mid weight characters like Mario for example (NAir) will work on Luigi during high percentages. Rage is very helpful for Ganon this game, so even after taking a beating don't give up. Rage will help you kill at percentages you won't expect.

Luigi's recovery. Perfect for tipman practice. Really, one of the easier recoveries for Ganon to work with.

Luigi's shield traction makes Ganon dash attack and some other aerials safe on shield hit. Very helpful after all those fireballs you'll get thrown at you, for you to make your next move.

I believe in a non-custom setting, Ganon loses to Luigi 40:60.

With custom moves included, I cannot say. I don't know anything about Luigi's custom moves at this point. But I can say that flame chain will help brush those annoying original special fireballs away. And if flame chain can work against his two other custom fireballs, then that's great news for Ganon.

Here's a video.

Interesting. How is the matchup on other stages? In this video you played on FD, which is a quite bad stage for Ganon (especially against projectile characters). Does the tide of this matchup shift even a little bit if you play on, for example; Battlefield? I can imagine the projectiles becomes easier to handle, though I might be wrong about that since I have no experience against this character.

 

[Vermanubis]

Just dropping in to say I haven't forgotten about this thread. =P Like with Mario (whose MU I now know much better), I haven't played any really stellar Luigis. So anything I say might fly for mediocre Weegees, but not necessarily class A ones.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Ganon V. Luigi's with customs would be about the same, maybe taken to 50:50 but I think that Ice Fireballs are a lot more annoying because they're slow moving and Luigi can shorthop them with like no lag, and given how tall Ganon is it can make his approach awfully linear. Luigi with customs is more problematic than he is without, that much is certain, but Ganon's customs make him so much better it's really hard to say.

Right now if I had to draw between both customs I'd say it's still 40:60 Luigi's favor because his customs make his fireball game arguably better for controlling movement options and his recovery gets a lot better. Partially limited experience but from what I can tell about Luigi's customs this is the closest I can get to an accurate estimate.

 

[Primer TMT]

I only think, the problem against a Luigi is his grab, with a grab he can rack us good % and kills us like Kalm said, grab and spike only that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Ganon V. Luigi's with customs would be about the same, maybe taken to 50:50 but I think that Ice Fireballs are a lot more annoying because they're slow moving and Luigi can shorthop them with like no lag, and given how tall Ganon is it can make his approach awfully linear. Luigi with customs is more problematic than he is without, that much is certain, but Ganon's customs make him so much better it's really hard to say.

Right now if I had to draw between both customs I'd say it's still 40:60 Luigi's favor because his customs make his fireball game arguably better for controlling movement options and his recovery gets a lot better. Partially limited experience but from what I can tell about Luigi's customs this is the closest I can get to an accurate estimate.

Unless I missed something, you can just F-air through Ice Balls. I don't see a serious reason for him to use Ice Balls against Ganondorf specifically when regular ones are better for stuffing Ganon's commitments.

The real question I have is the value of Shotgun Punch against Luigi. Theoretically it should be safe on block against Luigi, but the other real advantage of it is that it can be used as a medium ranged poke that has good anti-air properties. Using this move intelligently could feasibly limit Luigi's option in midrange.

Also I do believe still that properly spaced aerial WDK may be a strong option to get past Luigi's Fireballs in addition to the superior recovery, though I can understand why regular is probably easier to use.

 

[Poxnixles]

If I'm allowed to ask about MUs that haven't been covered yet, it feels to me like Mega Man is one of my worst. How do I handle the super fighting robot?

 

[Primer TMT]

If I'm allowed to ask about MUs that haven't been covered yet, it feels to me like Mega Man is one of my worst. How do I handle the super fighting robot?

my 2nd worst matchup its against megaman...the 1st against diddy Dx

 

[Xinc]

If I'm allowed to ask about MUs that haven't been covered yet, it feels to me like Mega Man is one of my worst. How do I handle the super fighting robot?

I'm under the impression we're doing this by order, but MegaMan sucks in BF. Otherwise, just bait him out, catch his gear attack so he can't make any new ones. Megamans who don't know how to rush cancel are susceptible to combos, like Side B to d tilt to side B to dtilt to uair.

 

[Watulio]

my 2nd worst matchup its against megaman...the 1st against diddy Dx

Yeah diddy is such a pain. His bananas aren't a big problem anymore. Diddy flat out beats ganondorf on cqc as he hits fast and strong.

Also diddy kongs tend to grab and combo you everytime. They will throw you up and follow it with one of his absurdly strong aerials, always getting KO's once you're above 130%.

 

[Primer TMT]

Yeah diddy is such a pain. His bananas aren't a big problem anymore. Diddy flat out beats ganondorf on cqc as he hits fast and strong.

Also diddy kongs tend to grab and combo you everytime. They will throw you up and follow it with one of his absurdly strong aerials, always getting KO's once you're above 130%.

yes! you know, a grab its ever EVER! a combo, 40% aprox, and sideB and grab again, only that!
and you re right, absurdly strong Upair to be a little monkey e.e

 

[Watulio]

If I'm allowed to ask about MUs that haven't been covered yet, it feels to me like Mega Man is one of my worst. How do I handle the super fighting robot?

I've never had problems with megaman as dorf. Be sure to jump alot (no double jumps though) to avoid his lemons andand fast fall and shield his charged shot and other projectiles.

Do ganon's down b to rush him down, d tilts to poke him

Use up tilt as megaman recovers. Works wonders.

Do not side b megaman, he will be shooting lemons at you or jumping to attack you with an aerial

Do not roll away from him or in his face. Get on his back and do a jab/dtilt/ftilt/sideb.

You have to put pressure on to megaman. He'll jusy shoot stuff if you stay on a defensive tactic

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Megaman is a character who is really all bluff in his moveset. Shield is his biggest weakness. Figure out the movement & projectile pattern of the Megaman user, and work your way from there. He really can't kill unless he gets a good bair off stage.

Megaman is far from being one of Ganon's hardest match-ups. He's most likely one of Dorf's easier match-ups.

 

[Poxnixles]

I'll keep that in mind for the next one I'm up against.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Okay guys, I think these ratios are fair enough (for now, we will update them as the metagame and our gaming experiences develop).

WEEK 2: LUIGI

Character Description: Luigi (Japanese: ルイージ Hepburn: Ruīji?) is a fictional character featured in video games and related media released by Nintendo. Created by prominent game designer Shigeru Miyamoto, Luigi is portrayed as the slightly younger but tallerfraternal twinbrother of Nintendo's mascot Mario, and appears in many games throughout the Mario franchise, frequently as a sidekick to his brother.

Gerudo Follow Ups (If not Teched): For a full chart of gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. Luigi has very long rolls, so be wary.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Keep your distance with fireballs, Ganondorf has no answer to them and if he hops in the air, you can outspeed him there because Luigi's aerials are faster asides from maybe Uair. I'm pretty sure one of the few characters Luigi can outspeed dashing is Ganondorf, so you can use that to your advantage.

Luigi's fireball are probably one of the best projectiles against Ganon in the game. Why? Think about it. First off, they come out relatively fast, and Luigi has only a few frames of lag (he will 95% of the time go unpunished). But more importantly, Luigi can just sit there and not only force Ganon to approach, but stay in shield and use mindgames to mess with Ganon. < What I just stated is the main problem in the entire match-up, that, Luigi literally gets another very powerful option against Ganon while staying in shield. Against many other characters, even including the two arrow shooting Pits, Ganon can change between his wizkick, gerudos, and dash attacks. But against Luigi, none of that would work. And to go on even further about those amazing fireballs, Ganon will lack safe aerial approaches. Luigi wants to force you in the air, and that's where he can either retreat and camp more, or dominate with his aerials.


Understanding the Match-up: Luigi has things which could completely shut Ganon down. Out of the many good players distinctive characters I've fought so far, I had the hardest time against a Luigi.

Ganon has a very very tough time grabbing Luigi due to Luigi's relative safe moves on shield. Ganon's other moves are too slow to punish.

Luigi's D-throw is somewhat similar to Ganons', with a lot of combos early on (which Ganon will have to take) the only way to truly break out of Luigi's early D-throw combos is to shift yourself after getting hit and time a Nair. Luigi's D-throw near the edge is what you really have to watch out for - if you shift horribly you can get a powerful spike which will kill you if you're around 55-65% or higher.
Summary of the Match-up: Luigi's excellent on stage, but he easily dies when he's offstage, victim to Ganon's tipman, stomp, and bair, depending on how he tries to recover. He also gets a bit of trouble in the air, where Ganondorf can knock him around with up air.

It's important to space properly. Ftilt blocks several of his approach on, while choke is another alternative. Ganon should be careful about the Cyclone, because it's different to break through. Also, Ganondorf should be careful to not just attempt to follow up, but just punish whiffed attacks. Luigi's traction is still bad, meaning he slides away upon his attack being shielded.

Luigi's fireballs are the bane in this matchup. Ganondorf needs to play smart and patiently, not getting hit by those fireballs. He can retreat, swat them away, or shield, but beware of any stray cyclones Luigi may send your way. Luigi also has a good down throw chain on Ganon, like Mario, and can rack up some damage, so it's crucial for Ganondorf to be careful.

All in all, Luigi dies extremely early if Ganondorf is a smart player, because Luigi should NOT be coming back when he's far offstage outside several exceptions.

In summary, I think Ganondorf can kill Luigi very early due to sheer power and if Luigi is below the stage, he's dead. But like others have said, Ganondorf has no answer to fireballs, and his attack speed is generally able to box Ganondorf around along with Luigi being able to pull some nasty combos on Ganondorf too. They are both able to punish each other well with whiffed moves and what not [Ganondorf can kill Luigi after a misplaced tornado, missile, uppercut especially]. Both are about the same movement wise, with Ganondorf have a slight edge in the air speed wise, and Luigi being faster dash wise on the ground.


With all that said, let's get to where Ganon shines in this match-up. Luigi is very light. I mean very light. And we all know how hard Ganon hits but against very light characters like Luigi, you will kill him early of course. Moves that wouldn't kill mid weight characters like Mario for example (NAir) will work on Luigi during high percentages. Rage is very helpful for Ganon this game, so even after taking a beating don't give up. Rage will help you kill at percentages you won't expect.

Luigi's recovery. Perfect for tipman practice. Really, one of the easier recoveries for Ganon to work with.

Luigi's shield traction makes Ganon dash attack and some other aerials safe on shield hit. Very helpful after all those fireballs you'll get thrown at you, for you to make your next move.

CM Ratio of the Match-up: 45:55 - SMALL DISADVANTAGE

Ratio of the Match-up: 45:55 - SMALL DISADVANTAGE

Videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9p0bijvQdc

Credits: @Yonder @ Xinc @rahsosprout @ Ray_Kalm @Thunderstorm

Thanks for your input everyone.

For week 3, let's move to Peachy.

I'm excited for Bowser, I have some valuable input for him, and I believe that characters 'like' him Ganon does good against on certain stages.

 

[Watulio]

Peach..
Well she certainly has the upper hand on the air department. Peach's floating ability can ruin ganondorf's recovery as she gimps it while she can safely recover. Ganondorf's quick aerials will otherwise get herher in the air as they have more range, especially his Uair.

She is also quicker on ground. One tip, her side b can ruin your day. Peach will comfortably move away if you shield it and dodging it isn't recommended as you will get hit as you end your dodge.

Ganondorf's big size makes it easy for her to smack you with her strong aerials as she floats. You can dash attack or side b peach when she does this, but wait for her to hit, her forward aerial isn't quick but her nair is, both of them leave peach exposed.

Peach is lighter than luigi and you can kill her at percentages like 90% or even 75% with rage with aerial down b, uncharged up smash and dair.
Her turnips are easily avoidable and shieldable. Her up b will shield her from a dair.

I think Peach has a small advantage against the dorf

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'll try and theorize for Peach but I REALLY can't wait for Bowser, probably one of the most honest MUs for Dorf, they're both really fundamentals based so it's hype.

MOVING ON TO PITCH.

This is a pretty limited analysis so I'm just going to point out some of the glaring negatives I know about and could theorize as an issue, and let discussion expand from there since I barely have a scene but want to contribute with any form of knowledge.

Ganondorf is gonna have to swat her away a lot and never challenge her aerials directly, ever. Peach has a lot of silly tricks including ways to make Fair not stale ever, among floating and having good aerials against someone as tall as Ganon, she also has a 0% to death combo against the cast via footstooling and this is pretty bad for Ganondorf because Dorf is really, really tall, and also incredibly slow. Setting up this infinite, while not easy, is probably not too bad against Dorf if the Peach plays their cards right, but then it all boils down to execution.

Turnips aren't too big of a problem, and killing her is honestly probably the easiest part given Ganondorf's suped up power. Hitting Peach in the air will probably be best done with SH Uair spaced properly after she throws out an aerial if she decides to take a risk in neutral. Edgeguarding with Dair I don't recommend, maybe Wizard Kick down although that seems risky and should probably be saved for her last stock if you're getting desperate.

Overall I think it's in Peach's favor, more than likely. Ganon is tall and really prone to aerial harassment via float, and he has fairly limited anti-air options from a grounded position. Definitely winnable but be careful.

 

[Z1GMA]

I haven't faced enough Peaches.

 

[camden]

Just to make the discussion more interesting, in the Wii U version, Peach can no longer Turnip Cancel, and her moves stale during float. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

 

[Watulio]

Just to make the discussion more interesting, in the Wii U version, Peach can no longer Turnip Cancel, and her moves stale during float. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Peach still has a range and aerial advantage. She is now more open to ganon's powerful blows though, strike when she attempts to take a turnip!

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach still has a range and aerial advantage. She is now more open to ganon's powerful blows though, strike when she attempts to take a turnip!

A smart Peach will not get a turnip close enough for you to punish.

I'll add more to this later as well to correct a few things I read here so far. Put everything else I read seems on point thus far. And just wanted to post so I can watch the thread.

 

[Xinc]

I haven't had the opportunity to play against too many Peaches, but I'll provide whatever I can give.

Gerudo Follow Ups (If not Teched): D tilt mainly. That can be crucial if she's in a high percentage, as Choke>Dtilt may kill her. It's possible to also read her reaction and WizKick, follow another choke, or a stomp.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Jab, ftilt. Back away, (power)shield. Also, try to take the projectile for yourself, which somewhat improves your approaching game temporarily.

Understanding the Match-up: Ganondorf needs to be careful around Peach. Her side B saw a major buff, in addition to the advantages she has over Ganondorf. When she's in the air, Ganondorf will have a difficult time challenging her. Full jump Nair is a good way to push her out of the way, if you space correctly. If Peach is a bit too high, Ganondorf can attempt a challenge with Up air to rack up some damage or force her to back away for a moment.

Dair is a very rare move used on a recovering, mainly because Peach's Parasol blocks the stomp. The quick Back Air and up air from below are good against the parasol. Don't quote me, but I believe the aerial WizKick can also clash against Peach's up B, if you manage it.

Ratio of the Match-up: I'm going to give this a 45-55.

Overall, I view Ganon having a slight disadvantage over Peach. The fact that she's light and can be killed early is counterbalanced by the fact that she has superior air game, decent ground game, range, and turnips, which makes it a bit difficult for Ganon to get a solid hit on her and follow up. Despite these disadvantages, Ganondorf can pull through and claim a victory.

 

[Vermanubis]

General Peach metagame: Peach's whole MO, as I understand it, is similar to Brawl: use float to pinpoint BAirs and FAirs, and using turnips as a cover for her approaches. Really good Peaches'll also float low to the ground and try to DAir us to death.

Peach's shenanigans/follow-ups: she can float cancel which can lead to some unpredictable jank. The DThrow > UTilt -- be careful about airdodging after a DThrow, since it traps you into falling into a UTilt. When she's above you and has a turnip, she can just drop it on you and follow-up for sizeable damage, so respect that and be careful about how you try to punish her. Edgeguarding/trumping's also a ***** against her, since her parasol pokes up from the ledge. But that also means our UTilt hits her more easily, though it is, admittedly, difficult to time. Lastly, she'll float offstage to try and bait a failed gimp. Don't immediately try to throw yourself at her while she's lingering off the stage, rather, be patient and try to wait until her float runs low so she can't retreat back for fear of not being able to make it back. Also, when you go for a FAir or whatever, overshoot a little in case she goes in reverse.

Ganon's counter-Peach metagame: She's in the air a lot, so NAir's a good idea. Wizkick's really good, too, since it's a fast way to challenge her floats. When she DAirs our shield, try to wait it out, the punish with NAir. Throwing out BAirs to make her respect your space is good, too, since she'll be doing the same with FAir and BAir. DTilt is a good thing to dare her to approach with, too. For turnips, anticipate that even if you PS them, her plan doesn't cease at throwing the turnip, but rather, a grab, FAir or something is inbound, so be prepared to think a few steps ahead. Peaches, in order to get distance on the turnips, will jump pretty high to toss them to create a wide arc, so if you're feeling saucy, make use of that height and throw some FAirs or UAirs out. All of Ganon's aerials cancel turnips out, too, so keep that in mind as an anti-turnip maneuver.

Imo, Peach wins, though I'm torn between 40:60 and 45:55. If I had to choose one, it'd be the latter though. She can pretty easily stay out of our zone and overwhelm us with her float shenanigans, but we have gimping power that she doesn't, can kill much more easily than her, and she can't access our blindspots terribly well (that is, low frontal, mid-to-low rear), so most of what she does has an answer, even if vestigial and circumstantial.

 

[Opana]

Was not getting notifications for some reason lol.

Well, there's not much I can say about this MU that hasn't been said, I mean I handle this how I handle the majority of MUs with tricks and all that.

 

[_Magus_]

Haven't fought many Peaches, sadly. Everything said here does make sense. I think her true potential, as with Marth, lies in the Gamecube controller. The 3DS controls just aren't as suited to her playstyle.

 

[Dark.Pch]

When a Peach mixes up her air and ground game, it can become hard for ganon to try and land a clean hit on her. Ganon would have the best chances hitting Peach out of the air more then anything and getting things started. he has good air harassment vs her. So a smart Peach won't really try to be in the air alot unless she has conditioned you to stay on the ground alot or block.

Her ways to make it hard to get in on her on the ground is a good use of QFR (Quick float release.) This is where Peach jumps, floats on the ground, and then quickly lets go. She can do this in quick sessions were it looks like she is wavedashing. And you guys should know the uses of wavedashing in melee/PM. Good movement can make it hard to tell what she will do and how to move in. And ganon is not a fast character so if he tries to go in swinging, he could be left open or baited for a counter attack. Movement in fighter games is seriously important and as of now, peach is the only character that can move in and out freely at will with out having to dash then shield and move again. Thats too long.

Now with this and a turnip in hand, she can use jump cancel throws to stop your ground approaches. if it hits you, she can jump, z grab it, then air pressure on the ground with a spaced move. From here she can run back to move QFR to a Jump cancel throw or just fun back and do it. Or go for a zdrop mix up. As you can see she has alot of mixups here from just holding one turnip and even hitting you with it.

Her shield pressure on you is really good and something you should not try to challenge. One of my frame traps I like to do is space a grounded nair on shield and then Dtilt. Most grabs won't reach me but my Dtilt will. It has good range. Her shield pressure is not as quick as it was in brawl dude to the timing of auto canceling her fair and her jab sucks (still can be used to counter people who wanna push a button out of shield).

Peach should not be trying to challenge you in the air. Your up-air kills her whole air moveset. Peach only goes for the air if she has you grounded alot. For Peach to decided when to go in the air, she has to mix up air and ground approaches. Too keep you guessing. A strong ground game is what she would rely on since her ground game is better then yours. Just be careful not to get baited to go in the air and then get hit with a spaced move just as a fair (though tricky to do against your Uair.) If I was to go in the air vs Ganon, it would be to a turnip to try to hit him out of his move before it starts up. Or toss a turnip in the air and land near him to punish his landing or force the defense. Now I got close to ganon and can start the offense.

Once thing you should seriously abuse as ganon is Peach's grounded blind spot. Which is out of her nair range. That is the fastest move she has out of shield. if she is not shielding it would be her jab but the range sucks. So if you actually stay out of the range of these moves, Peach can't do anything to you. The rest of her moves are ether slow or have no range. Even the range of her bair was nerfed so if she has her back turned, they out that range and if he tries attack you with it, just space a Ftilt ot uair. Its worst when you have her near the ledge. Just stay out of the range and wait for something that you can punish. Or weave in and out to be safe and punish with spaced moved. Turnips make covering her bling stop a lil better, but tossing a turnip is not that fast. So you can keep control. This is where you can get some hits and keep her in the air for baits and good damage.

If you are off stage, one thing I have been doing to alot of ganon, falcons is that I would Zdrop a turnip on them and then footstool them to death. Really if I force a second jump. So be really careful when recoverying and adapt hard to what the player does for edguards. Maybe some of your custom moves can help with this. But from my experience, its kinda free.
She can auto cancel her fair/bair with short hops. This is good for spacing her moves. She can also autocancel her moves while ground floating. The timing for it is just not as fast as brawl. But if spaced, she is safe. (Though I thing you can F-B out of shield of she spaced a bair on shield before I time the auto cancel and can block. Not sure)

Peach best method to recover is low vs Ganon. If she tries to go high and come down with typical dairs, just Uair her. You have the advantage in this situation.

I say your main goal here is to get in her blind spot and harass it to no end. I seriously don't like ANY CHARACTER in that spot. I can't do anything. I have to respect and be patient to find the right moment to counter attack or get some space. Peach can make this seriously hard. And you have to be patient. Respect Peach on shield and when she has a turnip. Once you get in make her respect your moves. If she does not, get your free damage. if she does, use your mix ups with your F-B and spaced moves to try and open her up for damage.

You have answers to what she does. It's just not easy against a solid Peach player. And when I talk about match ups, I dont talk about average level of play. I talk about players so seriously mix it up and hard to read. So This me telling you about a solid player. if you don't fight a Peach doing all of this, he is not making the match harder then it should be and you have a god shot of taking him out. If you run into a solid one, don't think you can do what you did to that average peach to this one. Don't think you have the match up down and and can take on anyone. That has been the downfall for many players. Thats my advice.

I dont know what ratio to give it. Really since I have not played a straight solid ganon and hate judgeing stuff on average play. I will say I feel Peach wins this fight. Thats about it.

 

[Sykkamorre]

When a Peach mixes up her air and ground game, it can become hard for ganon to try and land a clean hit on her. Ganon would have the best chances hitting Peach out of the air more then anything and getting things started. he has good air harassment vs her. So a smart Peach won't really try to be in the air alot unless she has conditioned you to stay on the ground alot or block.

Her ways to make it hard to get in on her on the ground is a good use of QFR (Quick float release.) This is where Peach jumps, floats on the ground, and then quickly lets go. She can do this in quick sessions were it looks like she is wavedashing. And you guys should know the uses of wavedashing in melee/PM. Good movement can make it hard to tell what she will do and how to move in. And ganon is not a fast character so if he tries to go in swinging, he could be left open or baited for a counter attack. Movement in fighter games is seriously important and as of now, peach is the only character that can move in and out freely at will with out having to dash then shield and move again. Thats too long.

Now with this and a turnip in hand, she can use jump cancel throws to stop your ground approaches. if it hits you, she can jump, z grab it, then air pressure on the ground with a spaced move. From here she can run back to move QFR to a Jump cancel throw or just fun back and do it. Or go for a zdrop mix up. As you can see she has alot of mixups here from just holding one turnip and even hitting you with it.

Her shield pressure on you is really good and something you should not try to challenge. One of my frame traps I like to do is space a grounded nair on shield and then Dtilt. Most grabs won't reach me but my Dtilt will. It has good range. Her shield pressure is not as quick as it was in brawl dude to the timing of auto canceling her fair and her jab sucks (still can be used to counter people who wanna push a button out of shield).

Peach should not be trying to challenge you in the air. Your up-air kills her whole air moveset. Peach only goes for the air if she has you grounded alot. For Peach to decided when to go in the air, she has to mix up air and ground approaches. Too keep you guessing. A strong ground game is what she would rely on since her ground game is better then yours. Just be careful not to get baited to go in the air and then get hit with a spaced move just as a fair (though tricky to do against your Uair.) If I was to go in the air vs Ganon, it would be to a turnip to try to hit him out of his move before it starts up. Or toss a turnip in the air and land near him to punish his landing or force the defense. Now I got close to ganon and can start the offense.

Once thing you should seriously abuse as ganon is Peach's grounded blind spot. Which is out of her nair range. That is the fastest move she has out of shield. if she is not shielding it would be her jab but the range sucks. So if you actually stay out of the range of these moves, Peach can't do anything to you. The rest of her moves are ether slow or have no range. Even the range of her bair was nerfed so if she has her back turned, they out that range and if he tries attack you with it, just space a Ftilt ot uair. Its worst when you have her near the ledge. Just stay out of the range and wait for something that you can punish. Or weave in and out to be safe and punish with spaced moved. Turnips make covering her bling stop a lil better, but tossing a turnip is not that fast. So you can keep control. This is where you can get some hits and keep her in the air for baits and good damage.

If you are off stage, one thing I have been doing to alot of ganon, falcons is that I would Zdrop a turnip on them and then footstool them to death. Really if I force a second jump. So be really careful when recoverying and adapt hard to what the player does for edguards. Maybe some of your custom moves can help with this. But from my experience, its kinda free.
She can auto cancel her fair/bair with short hops. This is good for spacing her moves. She can also autocancel her moves while ground floating. The timing for it is just not as fast as brawl. But if spaced, she is safe. (Though I thing you can F-B out of shield of she spaced a bair on shield before I time the auto cancel and can block. Not sure)

Peach best method to recover is low vs Ganon. If she tries to go high and come down with typical dairs, just Uair her. You have the advantage in this situation.

I say your main goal here is to get in her blind spot and harass it to no end. I seriously don't like ANY CHARACTER in that spot. I can't do anything. I have to respect and be patient to find the right moment to counter attack or get some space. Peach can make this seriously hard. And you have to be patient. Respect Peach on shield and when she has a turnip. Once you get in make her respect your moves. If she does not, get your free damage. if she does, use your mix ups with your F-B and spaced moves to try and open her up for damage.

You have answers to what she does. It's just not easy against a solid Peach player. And when I talk about match ups, I dont talk about average level of play. I talk about players so seriously mix it up and hard to read. So This me telling you about a solid player. if you don't fight a Peach doing all of this, he is not making the match harder then it should be and you have a god shot of taking him out. If you run into a solid one, don't think you can do what you did to that average peach to this one. Don't think you have the match up down and and can take on anyone. That has been the downfall for many players. Thats my advice.

I dont know what ratio to give it. Really since I have not played a straight solid ganon and hate judgeing stuff on average play. I will say I feel Peach wins this fight. Thats about it.

This. This so much.

I recently had the pleasure of going a few rounds with a solid peach and getting in her blindspot or getting her airborne drastically change the likeliness of winning. Uptilted fsmash knocks her high enough to force her to retreat hard or ganondorf gets a free uair/tipman depending on the percentage.

I was having a fair amount of trouble until I realised where to position myself, but after reading this and trying it out i'd have to say that we go either 45/55 or 50/50. But if we can't reach the place we need to be, this is probably 70/30 in peach's favour.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Bump for new MU? Possibly?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

My schedule has gotten a bit busy lately, as I have exams and have also started to work on the Wii U Ganon community video, as well as manage other Dorf threads.

I spoke with @ Vermanubis and asked him to give the OP to anyone who is interested in managing it for the time being. Whoever does can keep the current format or use their own.

 

[Vermanubis]

If anyone'd be willing to take over, please feel free to do so. I'm in the same boat as Kalm right now:finals, other life duties, etc.

 

[Xinc]

I did notice this kind of died out for a bit. I could take care of this, at least for the short term, if you desire.

 

[Vermanubis]

Desire would be an understatement, sir. Doing so will earn you my eternal gratitude (mercy).

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I consider myself a perfectly adequate Ganandorf player, but the villager MU is making me want to destroy everything in sight and hit my kids.

I need some tips for staying out of jail and also recovering around the GOD DAMNED bowling ball.

 

[Xinc]

Desire would be an understatement, sir. Doing so will earn you my eternal gratitude (mercy).

Very well. I shall start writing the Peach writeup asap. In other words, in a few hours.

I consider myself a perfectly adequate Ganandorf player, but the villager MU is making me want to destroy everything in sight and hit my kids.

I need some tips for staying out of jail and also recovering around the GOD DAMNED bowling ball.

1. Be passive aggressive on Villager when he goes off the ledge. Be ready to powershield his ledge drop fair and send him back on the ledge with a grab.
2. Powershielding through the entire battle is crucial. You need to stay on Villager as if he owes you money. Choke him if need be. Wizkick is a good way to close in the distance but don't be predictable. I swear that cost me a few games.

 

[dude1286]

I have been maining the Dorf since Melee, and consider myself mid-high tier at best in level of play. I would love to see this thread get revitalized due to the pain that I have with Ness and Sonic players. Ness projectile spammers give Ganon's a harder time than others due to the different ways they move, and it feels that Sonic's main combo that every player uses really hurts Ganon as the combo starter is not easily hit by us and can get away in time if it doesn't hit us. The Little Mac and Bowser MU feels like a joke, but that may be just the players themselves, as I have beaten both characters easily online.