Data The Dark Arts of Ganon (Match-Up Discussion)

[Opana]

I just wish I could give more specific commands.

EDIT

Played Troof more, player skill aside my biggest issue is just Bowser being faster overall, plus better oos options but that I can deal with.

 

[_Magus_]

I can't stress enough how devastating Gerudo is in the MU, tho.
There are 2 options for Bowser - Tech Roll towards Ganon or get hit by Dtilt(all other options) for 25% damage + Ganon lurking underneath you.

*raises eyebrow* Really? Gerudo is actually useful in this game? Interesting...

 

[_Magus_]

This is a double post, but i forgot to add some stuff about the potential wizkick punish. @ Xinc I feel like wizkick is a definite punish for fire breath, but the window is small. At the same time, whoever said Bowser could bait and punish that sounds right too. This MU seems like a cat-and-mouse game for bowser. I think we have the better tools, but he's still able to bait us into doing something punishable. Also, being a heavy, he's pretty well equipped to punish us.

 

[MagiusNecros]

*raises eyebrow* Really? Gerudo is actually useful in this game? Interesting...

Umm. Gerudo Tech Chase is always useful. Especially on Bowser. Because Bowser isn't Sheik.

 

[Xinc]

WEEK 4: BOWSER



Character Description: Bowser, sometimes known as King Koopa (Japanese: 大魔王クッパ, Daimaō Kuppa or "Great Demon King Koopa"), is the main antagonist of the Mario series and the King of the Koopa. He has repeatedly kidnapped or attempted to kidnap Princess Peach and take over the Mushroom Kingdom. He has also attempted to conquer other lands, such as the Mushroom World, Dinosaur Land, Sprixie Kingdom, and even the entire universe. Despite his villainous nature, he has occasionally helped the heroes of the Mushroom Kingdom against common threats and participates with them in their numerous sporting events in spin-off games.

Gerudo Follow Ups (If not Teched): For a full chart of gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. If unteched, Bowser is vulnerable to jab, side tilt, and down tilt. A short hop stomp also covers of his unteched options of rolling in, away, getting up and getup attack due to Bowser's large size.

Teching into place will still lead to down tilt, and down tilt will still catch Bowser if he rolls away. Choking to jab can lead to other followups as well.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Bowser's only projectile is Fire Breath. Bowser spews fire; the range decreases if the button is held too long. The outer layer of the flames deal damage but do not cause flinching.

The endlag from the Fire Breath is long enough for a well-spaced Ganondorf to punish with a Wizard's Foot. Despite the endlag from the WizKick, meaning there is no guarantee of a followup, it is still a good punish option.

Fire Breath can also be punished through reads or good reaction. Full hop fast fall F-air or N-air will knock Bowser away and cancel Fire Breath. Due to the endlag from Fire Breath, it is an attack that can be punished on reaction.

Understanding the Match-up: Both of these characters are heavy damage dealing characters, both with a different playstyle. Bowser is graced with superior grounded mobility; he has fire breath to control the stage, a good grab range, and a great Out of Shield option in Whirling Fortress (up B), which is a good way to punish Ganon's unsafe approaches, as well as gain distance. Whirling Fortress is a multi-hit move with he final hit being a stronger hit that launches you away. On the ground, Whirling Fortress has punishable landing lag, meaning if it is shielded or if it misses, Ganondorf can easily retaliate with Wizard's Foot, if Bowser is far apart, or forward smash if Bowser is close enough. However, Bowser can has many ways to approach and close in with Up-B through Dodge Canceling. If anticipating Whirling Fortress, Ganondorf should shield, or if there is enough space to punish the endlag, use Side-B. Bowser has setups that lead to said move, such as jab1, his fastest move. It's important to bear in mind Bowser's arms are invincible on the attacks that use them, which include jab1, jab2, Down Tilt, and Side Tilt, but he leans into those attacks, which means he is still vulnerable.

Bowser is fairly decent at punishing Ganondorf as well as Ganondorf can punish him. Bowser has seen an increase in mobility and range, especially grab range. Not only is Bowser's grab range very large, his pivot grab range is great as well. This means spacing aerials on Bowser is not as safe as it is on most others, due to the ease Bowser can have when retaliating with a shield grab. Due to the nature of Ganondorf's Wizard's Kick, Bowser can also punish the endlag of that move as well. Bowser's options are, when confronted with Wizard's Kick: grab, Flying Slam (Side B), and Bowser Bomb (down b). Fire Breath, when active, can also cancel Wizard's Kick, and halt any punishment from going through. In addition, due to both Bowser and Ganondorf's mass, Bowser can deliver the maximum damage from his Nair, which will cause Ganondorf to fall back. All that percent matters in the long run, especially through his down tilt and forward tilt in higher percents, both of which have good kill potential.

Ganondorf, on the other hand, suffers from mobility, but can capitalize far harder when punishing, and is more capable in chaining consecutive attacks. Because Bowser is a character with large mass and heavy weight, he is easily punished, as well as juggled with up air, a move with disjointed hitboxes through his feet. To get back down, Bowser has few options, such as dair, Bowser Bomb, and air dodge. Though the timing is difficult, Bowser's dair loses to the transcendent up air, as well as up smash. Up air can juggle past air dodge as well, but again, the timing must be precise. Bowser Bomb can also be punished through up air if Ganon is in the air, or a properly spaced forward smash. Both dair and Bomb are extremely laggy moves, so a skilled Bowser would use them carefully.

Despite most of Ganondorf's moves requiring a lot of commitment and being more punishable, his aerial moves have far less lag than Bowser's, as well as outspace. Bowser is more mobile on the ground, but Ganondorf's best bet is to take Bowser to the air and juggle him there. However, Ganondorf should be careful not to go too much in the air, or he will be victim to Bowser's up smash, which has also a landing hitbox, which makes air dodging less safe.

There tends to be something similar to a rock-paper-scissors effect in this matchup, in which Bowser's Fortress beats the majority of Ganondorf's moves, but is beaten (through the endlag) by his choke, which leads to a lot of follow ups and potential problems for Bowser. However, choke is beaten by Fire Breath, if it misses, which is beaten by a well spaced Wizard's Foot, which is also beaten by Out of Shield Fortress.

Arguably, on the ground, Ganondorf's best move to use against Bowser would be the Flame Choke. If unteched, Flame Choke leads to numerous options. Ganondorf can send Bowser up high with down tilt, to the side with side tilt, and just a little bit away with jab. Of these three followups, the first two have kill potential. Alternatively, short hop down air also beats many options, such as rolling in, getting up, no reaction, and get up attack. Another punish for rolling towards Ganon is turn around Forward Smash, which will deliver massage damage, and seal stocks at mid to high percents.

If teched, it is important to note due to the short duration of his tech roll and his size, a Bowser rolling away from Ganon will still eat a down tilt. That said, down tilt covers many options

When Bowser is offstage, it is important to note the nature of Whirling Fortress, Bowser's Up-B move. It travels far horizontally, but is poor vertically. This means it is difficult to down air spike him , as well as hit him with other aerial moves when Ganondorf is above him. The exception is Wizard's Foot; the initial hitbox will go through Bowser's Up-B and spike him down anyway. However, it is very difficult to interrupt Bowser's Up-B when Ganon is above him, due to the spikes on Bowser's shell when he spins. However, if Ganon is below or near-level to Bowser, an up air will interrupt Bowser's recovery.

Although both characters have suicide options, Ganondorf's kills his opponent first, while Bowser dies first in his variant. This is important to note in a gamebreaker. Ganondorf's aerial choke is very limited in usage and can only be used near the ledge, while Bowser's offers more range and distance. However, Bowser's flying slam can be controlled by the one with a lower percent. Ganondorf can take control of this move and win a match if the Bowser player carelessly uses Flying Slam with a higher percent.

Summary of the Match-up: The battle between the two evil kings is truly a battle to behold. Both parties hit hard and can exploit a weakness the other has. Ganondorf can take advantage of Bowser's large stature to pull off choke strings and follow ups, while Bowser is far more mobile than Ganondorf on the ground, which forces Ganondorf to play more defensively than he would like.

Bowser has more options than Ganondorf in terms of dealing damage and does not need to commit as Ganondorf does. However, Ganondorf excels at ending stocks easier than Bowser, as well as continuing combo strings. Ganondorf's aerials also outspace Bowser's, though by a margin, which means in the air, Ganondorf has a slightly better time getting momentum. Due to Ganon's effective juggling game on heavier characters, as well as good offstage game, Ganondorf can easily combo Bowser even up to mid or high percent, and even end stocks.

CM Ratio of the Match-up: 50:50 - Even

Ratio of the Match-up: 50:50 - Even


WEEK 5: Please discuss and analyze the other major dinosaur/dragon and how he matches up with the Lord of Evil: Yoshi

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Just a small nitpick @ Xinc you listed week "5" above Bowser in the OP when it should be 4.

Yoshi... I think Yoshi wins over Ganon. Maybe 60:40? Yoshi is one the best chars in the game and it's only reasonable that he gives Ganon trouble, but this match-up still seems very doable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I haven't played any Yoshi players that I felt were at least my level. In theory I believe it's 55/45 Yoshi. He wins slightly just because he has slightly more complete options to punish Ganon's tools while there's a few things Yoshi can do which are harder for Ganon to punish, and he can do nearly as much combo damage as Ganon too. I would say overall both characters however destroy each other very quickly and have to play carefully against each other.

Egg Toss is annoying, but you can powershield it in neutral. What's slightly more scary is Egg Lay, which you NEED to spotdodge, however you can punish it if you dodge it. However usually, if you know Yoshi commits to the air, you can beat most of what he does by just spacing an aerial well. N-air usually is a good option. Just be careful when you juggle him, if Yoshi is ahead of you, he can potentially B reverse Egg Lay to either fake you out or to punish you if you're not careful. However if you are under him, it's generally pretty safe to U-air, even if he tries to go for Down-B, because U-air's long range and lingering frames can power through his Down-B pretty easily.

Overall I don't actually think we need to do that many things differently in this matchup. Just know that Yoshi's punish options can be devastating, and that we have to be patient about Egg Toss and Egg Lay.

 

[ividal]

i call it 50/50, yoshi has superior movement over ganondorf, both on the ground and on the air, he also has many ways to punish ganondorf when hes off stage to get the kill, on the other hand ganondorf does have the tools to take down yoshi very easily, for one his side b to down tilt combo can always take a yoshi for surprise, ganondorf can stop any aerial attacks with either dair or his down b, unless yoshi predicts this moves.

in my opinion, the 2 of them are monsters, yoshi with his good speed and power and ganondorf with his raw power, it would be pretty hard to say which character can win here

 

[KenMeister]

i call it 50/50, yoshi has superior movement over ganondorf, both on the ground and on the air, he also has many ways to punish ganondorf when hes off stage to get the kill, on the other hand ganondorf does have the tools to take down yoshi very easily, for one his side b to down tilt combo can always take a yoshi for surprise, ganondorf can stop any aerial attacks with either dair or his down b, unless yoshi predicts this moves.

in my opinion, the 2 of them are monsters, yoshi with his good speed and power and ganondorf with his raw power, it would be pretty hard to say which character can win here

Learn to tech the sideB. Unless Yoshi can't tech it like the Mii Fighters aren't able to for some reason.

 

[Z-Bone]

ividal, just tech roll immediately when hitting the ground after his side B and the d-tilt will whiff. I say this is a 60-40 matchup in Yoshi's favor, and that's being generous to Ganondorf. If played very defensively there's not a whole lot Ganon can do besides shield and roll to get in. Yoshi can punish the entirety of Ganon's arsenal and also gimp him pretty easily with a spike or a simple offstage nair. Dair can land fairly easily on large characters and do a lot of damage. Yoshi is unsafe when above or below Ganon, so Yoshi can't often go for those sweet Uairs, but a good Yoshi will bait Ganon into committing to a move and then punishing.

That's not to say Ganondorf is helpless. Ganondorf is a beast. This is probably my favorite matchup to play as Yoshi, not because Yoshi dominates, but because I know if I make one little mistake I'll probably lose a stock. It's very intense. And eggs against large characters are always fun. A Yoshi player has to be super careful in this matchup because a Yoshi can poor on the damage with a dozen hits only to get hit once or twice and KOed before he knew what happened.

 

[Z1GMA]

42 - 58
This MU isn't horrible for Ganon, however, Yoshi has a lot of pressure-tools that are hard to deal with if he spaces them properly (just outside our grab-range).
Generally Ganon's spaced attacks beat Yoshi's, so hang in there and space properly.

WEEK 4: BOWSER

View attachment 34799

Character Description: Bowser, sometimes known as King Koopa (Japanese: 大魔王クッパ, Daimaō Kuppa or "Great Demon King Koopa"), is the main antagonist of the Mario series and the King of the Koopa. He has repeatedly kidnapped or attempted to kidnap Princess Peach and take over the Mushroom Kingdom. He has also attempted to conquer other lands, such as the Mushroom World, Dinosaur Land, Sprixie Kingdom, and even the entire universe. Despite his villainous nature, he has occasionally helped the heroes of the Mushroom Kingdom against common threats and participates with them in their numerous sporting events in spin-off games.

Gerudo Follow Ups (If not Teched): For a full chart of gerudo follow ups for all characters, click here. If unteched, Bowser is vulnerable to jab, side tilt, and down tilt. A short hop stomp also covers of his unteched options of rolling in, away, getting up and getup attack due to Bowser's large size.

Teching into place will still lead to down tilt, and down tilt will still catch Bowser if he rolls away. Choking to jab can lead to other followups as well.

How to Deal with Projectiles: Bowser's only projectile is Fire Breath. Bowser spews fire; the range decreases if the button is held too long. The outer layer of the flames deal damage but do not cause flinching.

The endlag from the Fire Breath is long enough for a well-spaced Ganondorf to punish with a Wizard's Foot. Despite the endlag from the WizKick, meaning there is no guarantee of a followup, it is still a good punish option.

Fire Breath can also be punished through reads or good reaction. Full hop fast fall F-air or N-air will knock Bowser away and cancel Fire Breath. Due to the endlag from Fire Breath, it is an attack that can be punished on reaction.

Understanding the Match-up: Both of these characters are heavy damage dealing characters, both with a different playstyle. Bowser is graced with superior grounded mobility; he has fire breath to control the stage, a good grab range, and a great Out of Shield option in Whirling Fortress (up B), which is a good way to punish Ganon's unsafe approaches, as well as gain distance. Whirling Fortress is a multi-hit move with he final hit being a stronger hit that launches you away. On the ground, Whirling Fortress has punishable landing lag, meaning if it is shielded or if it misses, Ganondorf can easily retaliate with Wizard's Foot, if Bowser is far apart, or forward smash if Bowser is close enough. However, Bowser can has many ways to approach and close in with Up-B through Dodge Canceling. If anticipating Whirling Fortress, Ganondorf should shield, or if there is enough space to punish the endlag, use Side-B. Bowser has setups that lead to said move, such as jab1, his fastest move. It's important to bear in mind Bowser's arms are invincible on the attacks that use them, which include jab1, jab2, Down Tilt, and Side Tilt, but he leans into those attacks, which means he is still vulnerable.

Bowser is fairly decent at punishing Ganondorf as well as Ganondorf can punish him. Bowser has seen an increase in mobility and range, especially grab range. Not only is Bowser's grab range very large, his pivot grab range is great as well. This means spacing aerials on Bowser is not as safe as it is on most others, due to the ease Bowser can have when retaliating with a shield grab. Due to the nature of Ganondorf's Wizard's Kick, Bowser can also punish the endlag of that move as well. Bowser's options are, when confronted with Wizard's Kick: grab, Flying Slam (Side B), and Bowser Bomb (down b). Fire Breath, when active, can also cancel Wizard's Kick, and halt any punishment from going through. In addition, due to both Bowser and Ganondorf's mass, Bowser can deliver the maximum damage from his Nair, which will cause Ganondorf to fall back. All that percent matters in the long run, especially through his down tilt and forward tilt in higher percents, both of which have good kill potential.

Ganondorf, on the other hand, suffers from mobility, but can capitalize far harder when punishing, and is more capable in chaining consecutive attacks. Because Bowser is a character with large mass and heavy weight, he is easily punished, as well as juggled with up air, a move with disjointed hitboxes through his feet. To get back down, Bowser has few options, such as dair, Bowser Bomb, and air dodge. Though the timing is difficult, Bowser's dair loses to the transcendent up air, as well as up smash. Up air can juggle past air dodge as well, but again, the timing must be precise. Bowser Bomb can also be punished through up air if Ganon is in the air, or a properly spaced forward smash. Both dair and Bomb are extremely laggy moves, so a skilled Bowser would use them carefully.

Despite most of Ganondorf's moves requiring a lot of commitment and being more punishable, his aerial moves have far less lag than Bowser's, as well as outspace. Bowser is more mobile on the ground, but Ganondorf's best bet is to take Bowser to the air and juggle him there. However, Ganondorf should be careful not to go too much in the air, or he will be victim to Bowser's up smash, which has also a landing hitbox, which makes air dodging less safe.

There tends to be something similar to a rock-paper-scissors effect in this matchup, in which Bowser's Fortress beats the majority of Ganondorf's moves, but is beaten (through the endlag) by his choke, which leads to a lot of follow ups and potential problems for Bowser. However, choke is beaten by Fire Breath, if it misses, which is beaten by a well spaced Wizard's Foot, which is also beaten by Out of Shield Fortress.

Arguably, on the ground, Ganondorf's best move to use against Bowser would be the Flame Choke. If unteched, Flame Choke leads to numerous options. Ganondorf can send Bowser up high with down tilt, to the side with side tilt, and just a little bit away with jab. Of these three followups, the first two have kill potential. Alternatively, short hop down air also beats many options, such as rolling in, rolling out, getting up, no reaction, and get up attack. Another punish for rolling towards Ganon is turn around Forward Smash, which will deliver massage damage, and seal stocks at mid to high percents.

If teched, it is important to note due to the short duration of his tech roll and his size, a Bowser rolling away from Ganon will still eat a down tilt. That said, down tilt covers many options.

When Bowser is offstage, it is important to note the nature of Whirling Fortress, Bowser's Up-B move. It travels far horizontally, but is poor vertically. This means it is difficult to down air spike him , as well as hit him with other aerial moves when Ganondorf is above him. The exception is Wizard's Foot; the initial hitbox will go through Bowser's Up-B and spike him down anyway. However, it is very difficult to interrupt Bowser's Up-B when Ganon is above him, due to the spikes on Bowser's shell when he spins. However, if Ganon is below or near-level to Bowser, an up air will interrupt Bowser's recovery.

Although both characters have suicide options, Ganondorf's kills his opponent first, while Bowser dies first in his variant. This is important to note in a gamebreaker. Ganondorf's aerial choke is very limited in usage and can only be used near the ledge, while Bowser's offers more range and distance. However, Bowser's flying slam can be controlled by the one with a lower percent. Ganondorf can take control of this move and win a match if the Bowser player carelessly uses Flying Slam with a higher percent.

Summary of the Match-up: The battle between the two evil kings is truly a battle to behold. Both parties hit hard and can exploit a weakness the other has. Ganondorf can take advantage of Bowser's large stature to pull off choke strings and follow ups, while Bowser is far more mobile than Ganondorf on the ground, which forces Ganondorf to play more defensively than he would like.

Bowser has more options than Ganondorf in terms of dealing damage and does not need to commit as Ganondorf does. However, Ganondorf excels at ending stocks easier than Bowser, as well as continuing combo strings. Ganondorf's aerials also outspace Bowser's, though by a margin, which means in the air, Ganondorf has a slightly better time getting momentum. Due to Ganon's effective juggling game on heavier characters, as well as good offstage game, Ganondorf can easily combo Bowser even up to mid or high percent, and even end stocks.

CM Ratio of the Match-up: 50:50 - Even

Ratio of the Match-up: 50:50 - Even


WEEK 5: Please discuss and analyze the other major dinosaur/dragon and how he matches up with the Lord of Evil: Yoshi

View attachment 34800

Gerudo SH Stomp does not cover his away-roll. But Everything else, including lying still.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ividal, just tech roll immediately when hitting the ground after his side B and the d-tilt will whiff. I say this is a 60-40 matchup in Yoshi's favor, and that's being generous to Ganondorf. If played very defensively there's not a whole lot Ganon can do besides shield and roll to get in. Yoshi can punish the entirety of Ganon's arsenal and also gimp him pretty easily with a spike or a simple offstage nair. Dair can land fairly easily on large characters and do a lot of damage. Yoshi is unsafe when above or below Ganon, so Yoshi can't often go for those sweet Uairs, but a good Yoshi will bait Ganon into committing to a move and then punishing.

That's not to say Ganondorf is helpless. Ganondorf is a beast. This is probably my favorite matchup to play as Yoshi, not because Yoshi dominates, but because I know if I make one little mistake I'll probably lose a stock. It's very intense. And eggs against large characters are always fun. A Yoshi player has to be super careful in this matchup because a Yoshi can poor on the damage with a dozen hits only to get hit once or twice and KOed before he knew what happened.

Just keep in mind, Ganondorf still has other techchase combos even if you techroll. So it's important to mix up whether or not you techroll to keep him guessing. Ganondorf also has access to F-tilt out of Flame Choke on Yoshi if you don't techroll.

I've rarely had problems recovering offstage against Yoshi except in positions where he hard reads Ganon's airdodge with Egg Toss to set up combos. I don't think Yoshi edgeguards Ganondorf that well for the most part. F-air is telegraphed and pretty easily avoided, while N-air or D-air in contrast Ganondorf can usually just double jump U-air through as long as he didn't DI poorly.

Also, Ganondorf won't be primarily using rolling to get in. He'll be powershielding eggs, yes, but Ganon's goal is actually just to get in range to space N-air, DA, and D-tilt generally speaking. Head to head, Ganondorf easily beats a lot of Yoshi's attacks with his moves, and he'll throw in grabs and Flame Choke if he gets the sense that you're afraid of contesting his attacks. You should keep in mind at 0, Ganondorf can do 22 damage with D-throw -> DA, his F-throw does a massive 13%, and Flame Choke by itself does 12% on top of its deadly setup potential. This is just Ganondorf in general, but as we're aware, he overpowers basically everyone once he gets rolling.

I think mostly, I agree with Z1GMA that where Ganon has headaches in this matchup, aside from Yoshi's strong punishes, are when he spaces things safely outside of Ganon's shieldgrab range, and manages to be in range to attack with things like Jab or Egg Lay. Ganondorf however if he plays very carefully can outpriotize most of Yoshi's tools for great damage.

 

[_Magus_]

Umm. Gerudo Tech Chase is always useful. Especially on Bowser. Because Bowser isn't Sheik.

Good to know. I was under the impression grounded Choke was always better than Gerudo. Guess I need to do some more research.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Good to know. I was under the impression grounded Choke was always better than Gerudo. Guess I need to do some more research.

Well Bowser's tech roll is terrible so yeah. And I would know considering I main both Ganon and Bowser. So if the Bowser decides to roll away from the Aerial Flame Choke you can easily follow up with a regular choke because his tech roll is that bad. Most cases I use Aerudo as a fear factor if someone gets greedy and tries to kill me low or basically making the opponent scared to edgeguard you in fear of getting dragged down to Lorule.

And Aerudo does 15% damage which is 3% more then regular Gerudo which does 12%.

And from 0% if your opponent was too dumb or too slow to tech Gerudo you can easily Gerudo > Dtilt > Gerudo > Dtilt probably into a Uair or Fair. Or after the 2nd Dtilt you bait a Airdodge by dashing a little bit and nailing the heavy with a UpSmash.

 

[Opana]

I frequent Gfaqs online boards and have played a competent Yoshi there.

I don't see Egg Toss as a huge problem tbh, I feel it's one of the more punishable moves of hiswhen powerrshielded. His grabs are my biggest issue, dash grabs and Egg Lay. I find a Yoshi that knows what they're doing to be hard to punish if anything due to the speed and pressure.

Reminds me somewhat of playing against Pikachu but with better kill power.

I don't have a ton of Yoshi exp but I'd also say 55 Yoshi.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Egg toss is definitely a bigger problem for Ganandorf than you might think. If he's in the air, and getting him in the air is not hard at all for a Yoshi, then you either eat the egg or air-dodge. And most eggs are just baits to force defensive reactions, so you don't really throw them at a target approaching with powershield. If you do, then you are doing so in a short-hop because you have conditioned a powershield and are using egg-lay at the same time. People seriously underestimate how much eggs can control the stage, especially against slower, larger opponents. They do decent damage, but it's their stage control and momentum shifting properties that make it so dangerous. And the fact that it can make approaching with a command-grab fairly safe means it's one of the best projectiles in the game.

The one thing I think Ganandorf might have going for him in this MU is edge-guarding. You can't really challenge Yoshi off-stage much (although ledge-trump => bair might be an early gimp against Yoshi), but you can make getting back on the stage pretty stressful. Between Yoshi's eggs, dair, fair and egg-lay, I think you'll want to play the off-stage game pretty safely.

Egg-lay is a really good move, but it was nerfed from Brawl (in terms of speed and safeness of use) and it was even nerfed again slightly in the WiiU patch. I'm willing to bet a well-timed f-tilt beats it out, but like I said before, when it's used in conjunction with egg-toss, it's tricky to punish. Another good thing for Ganondorf is that Yoshi often forces a lot of 50/50 scenarios and capitalizes on trades. This is one of the rare cases where 50/50 scenarios and trades don't work out in Yoshi's favor.

I play the two about equally, maybe even leaning a bit more towards Ganandorf these days, and I still really think the advantage is in Yoshi's favor pretty cleanly. I'd say 60:40.

 

[Z-Bone]

Egg toss is definitely a bigger problem for Ganandorf than you might think. If he's in the air, and getting him in the air is not hard at all for a Yoshi, then you either eat the egg or air-dodge. And most eggs are just baits to force defensive reactions, so you don't really throw them at a target approaching with powershield. If you do, then you are doing so in a short-hop because you have conditioned a powershield and are using egg-lay at the same time. People seriously underestimate how much eggs can control the stage, especially against slower, larger opponents. They do decent damage, but it's their stage control and momentum shifting properties that make it so dangerous. And the fact that it can make approaching with a command-grab fairly safe means it's one of the best projectiles in the game.

The one thing I think Ganandorf might have going for him in this MU is edge-guarding. You can't really challenge Yoshi off-stage much (although ledge-trump => bair might be an early gimp against Yoshi), but you can make getting back on the stage pretty stressful. Between Yoshi's eggs, dair, fair and egg-lay, I think you'll want to play the off-stage game pretty safely.

Egg-lay is a really good move, but it was nerfed from Brawl (in terms of speed and safeness of use) and it was even nerfed again slightly in the WiiU patch. I'm willing to bet a well-timed f-tilt beats it out, but like I said before, when it's used in conjunction with egg-toss, it's tricky to punish. Another good thing for Ganondorf is that Yoshi often forces a lot of 50/50 scenarios and capitalizes on trades. This is one of the rare cases where 50/50 scenarios and trades don't work out in Yoshi's favor.

I play the two about equally, maybe even leaning a bit more towards Ganandorf these days, and I still really think the advantage is in Yoshi's favor pretty cleanly. I'd say 60:40.

This. I couldn't have said it better and coming from a Yoshi and Ganondorf main, this is as rock solid an opinion as it gets. Definitely in Yoshi's favor. Whenever I lose to a Ganondorf, I almost always know it was because I made a mental error and feel I should have won. Ganondorf punishes mistakes harder than anyone, but you have to make a mistake for that to happen.

 

[Xinc]

42 - 58
This MU isn't horrible for Ganon, however, Yoshi has a lot of pressure-tools that are hard to deal with if he spaces them properly (just outside our grab-range).
Generally Ganon's spaced attacks beat Yoshi's, so hang in there and space properly.



Gerudo SH Stomp does not cover his away-roll. But Everything else, including lying still.

Fixed, thanks. Also, was the 42 part really necessary lol

 

[GSM_Dren]

I'd say this MU clearly favors Yoshi, easily 60/40. That doesn't mean that ganon is helpless however! He is definitely a force to be reckoned with and should not be taken lightly.

Ganon has plenty of killing power so a simple mistake by Yoshi can easily turn into a lost stock or heavy damage. Flame choke is a great tool for damage and even when tech'd, Ganon still has tech chase options going for him. While Wizard's kick is slow, it can be used recovering from above to prevent aerial shenanigans from Yoshi.

Egg tosses for approaching and defensive positioning make it very difficult for Ganon to close the gap, especially when he's in the air. Shield is ganon's friend when it comes to egg toss, if the Yoshi is too careless with eggs, you can powershield your way and grab to punish. However do not rely too heavily on your shield as that's where Yoshi finds an opening with Egg lay. B-reversed/Wavebounced egg lays add a lot of movement options for Yoshi so be on your toes so as to not get caught. And if you do get caught make sure to mash your way out asap and dodge immediately when exiting because Yoshi can rack up damage quickly with an Usmash or grounded Yoshi bomb.

In this MU, as Scarlet Jile said above, trading does not favor Yoshi. Being overly aggressive with Ganon will simply get you punished. A patient Ganondorf is a scary ganondorf! Read your opponent's movements and react accordingly; any character, no matter how high on the tier list, will easily fall to a patient Ganon.

 

[Sykkamorre]

All these 60-40's seem rather strange to me.
I'd happily say that this is 65-35 or even 70-30 in Yoshi's favour, those eggs and dairs can wreck shop on us, and his rather incredible nair seems to be able to screw us over without perfect spacing in the air from us.

Could just be that I suck against Yoshi, but this MU seems hard as hell. Not Pikachu hard, but still.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean...I really have never seriously had problems against Yoshi. I've run into perhaps two Yoshi players on For Glory who I could tell were following the game competitively, and while they did take a few games off me, I won my fair share of games against them. Mind you, these were games where the lag was low enough for me to deliberately powershield.

I don't usually have problems shieldgrabbing Yoshi's N-air, to be frank. If you're letting him space it perfectly on your shield, you probably aren't being mobile enough. Then there's just the fact that you can straight up beat it with your own aerials and F-tilt if you position better than that.

His D-air is really scary to deal with yes. You HAVE to be mobile in this matchup while you're powershielding his Eggs. You really just don't want to be caught in a position where he gets to space it on top of you, which either results in you losing almost your entire shield, or eating massive damage. Fortunately you can beat it with U-air usually.

Yoshi will be relatively vulnerable to Flame Choke if you're playing this matchup well because he has to respect your U-air a lot when you're juggling him. It's not the same as Pikachu who just presses Up-B to land anywhere he pleases. When Ganondorf has Yoshi in a bad position, all the usual threat you normally have is very relevant.

In a sense, I feel like Yoshi and Ganondorf actually want to do very similar things in this matchup. Both characters are strongest when they put their opponent in a bad position, and they want to avoid being juggled. And their game hinges around scaring their opponent into being afraid of certain things before going in hard.

 

[_Magus_]

Gonna post about this in a new thread, but my discovery, which gives us new and easier followups out of choke, works on Yoshi too.

 

[JmacAttack]

Just a small nitpick @ Xinc you listed week "5" above Bowser in the OP when it should be 4.

Yoshi... I think Yoshi wins over Ganon. Maybe 60:40? Yoshi is one the best chars in the game and it's only reasonable that he gives Ganon trouble, but this match-up still seems very doable.

"He's considered good, so he must give Ganon trouble!"

Have we been low tier so long that we've started jumping to these conclusions so quickly? For a matchup to be uneven, one character must either have options that limit the other character's options in the neutral, or have easy 0-to-death potential. Yoshi has neither of these against Ganon. Both characters must respect each other's options in the neutral and while edgeguarding. It's even.

All these 60-40's seem rather strange to me.
I'd happily say that this is 65-35 or even 70-30 in Yoshi's favour, those eggs and dairs can wreck shop on us, and his rather incredible nair seems to be able to screw us over without perfect spacing in the air from us.

Could just be that I suck against Yoshi, but this MU seems hard as hell. Not Pikachu hard, but still.

I have no idea why eggs and dairs would shut us down. Eggs are easy to powershield, and dair has to be spaced well to work its magic. If he tries to short hop dair on you, he's putting himself in range of Ftilt, which Yoshi must respect. His nair... you're kidding, right? It's no better than Mario's nair. The range is crap, there's no disjoint, it's otherwise mediocre for damage and knockback, and its hitbox doesn't linger for long. You could beat it out with a Ganon nair no sweat.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just stay out of the air for extended periods of time and powershield the Eggs. We can Choke him right out of Egg Roll. Just space yourself so you don't get grabbed by his tongue. His real prowess is in the air, so train the player to fight on your terms and watch for that mistake and kick his face.

 

[Sykkamorre]

"He's considered good, so he must give Ganon trouble!"

Have we been low tier so long that we've started jumping to these conclusions so quickly? For a matchup to be uneven, one character must either have options that limit the other character's options in the neutral, or have easy 0-to-death potential. Yoshi has neither of these against Ganon. Both characters must respect each other's options in the neutral and while edgeguarding. It's even.



I have no idea why eggs and dairs would shut us down. Eggs are easy to powershield, and dair has to be spaced well to work its magic. If he tries to short hop dair on you, he's putting himself in range of Ftilt, which Yoshi must respect. His nair... you're kidding, right? It's no better than Mario's nair. The range is crap, there's no disjoint, it's otherwise mediocre for damage and knockback, and its hitbox doesn't linger for long. You could beat it out with a Ganon nair no sweat.

Hence why I said that it could just be that I suck at the Yoshi MU, that estimate is just from what I've experienced.

 

[_Magus_]

What @ JmacAttack said, new game, new Ganon. I personally feel like this one is about even, same as we concluded the bowser MU to be. Both have tools that the other has to respect, however, neither dominates the other too hard. 50:50

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly the main reason I'd tip this matchup to Yoshi's favor about 55/45 is because of the threat of Egg Lay and his 3 frame Jab which can hit confirm into other moves. Everything else is pretty simple for Ganondorf to handle, but you do have to make harder reads to work around those two moves.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The only time Yoshi throws an egg while standing still is when the opponent is already off-stage, otherwise they're spaced out of Ganondorf's very short range of safe punish options. If Ganondorf punishes an egg-toss, it's because of an error, which is why I don't think the neutral is even.

@ MagiusNecros "Choke him right out of egg roll." Jettison the thought directly out of your brain, egg roll doesn't exist.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So decent Yoshi's never use their Side B?

 

[Z-Bone]

Most Yoshi pros don't seem to use egg roll. I understand why, as it is highly punishable, but I throw it out every once in a while. I use it when my opponent is already vulnerable, such as when they are landing on the stage. If you use it rarely, it can catch the opponent off guard and I find most people don't react quick enough to punish it and sometimes panic a bit.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So decent Yoshi's never use their Side B?

I wouldn't say "never," but there's almost always a better option for anything egg roll can accomplish. I would say that 75% of the time you see a good Yoshi using side-B, it's a technical error on egg-toss slide or b-reverse.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I wouldn't say "never," but there's almost always a better option for anything egg roll can accomplish. I would say that 75% of the time you see a good Yoshi using side-B, it's a technical error on egg-toss slide or b-reverse.

Good to know.

 

[Z-Bone]

I wouldn't say "never," but there's almost always a better option for anything egg roll can accomplish. I would say that 75% of the time you see a good Yoshi using side-B, it's a technical error on egg-toss slide or b-reverse.

And I would like to add to that, 100% of the time you see a Yoshi use egg roll off stage, it was an input error.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Egg Roll is ok for repositioning sometimes. It's a little easier to get away with than DA if your goal is to get to the other side of the stage in a way that catches your opponent off guard. I believe it can be shieldgrabbed if you do it really fast, but that tends to be difficult to do on the spot.

The only time Yoshi throws an egg while standing still is when the opponent is already off-stage, otherwise they're spaced out of Ganondorf's very short range of safe punish options. If Ganondorf punishes an egg-toss, it's because of an error, which is why I don't think the neutral is even.

@ MagiusNecros "Choke him right out of egg roll." Jettison the thought directly out of your brain, egg roll doesn't exist.

Wait, I am not even sure what you're trying to argue about neutral. I mean, I already argued Yoshi does have Jab and Egg Lay which take some fairly hard reads for Ganondorf to punish. But overall, I would believe that Ganondorf for the most part has an answer to most of the things Yoshi can do in neutral, on top of having a great punish game to keep up with Yoshi's huge damage, which puts the matchup fairly close.

To repeat, I see this as 55/45 Yoshi due to his close range options, but overall this matchup is capable of going either way when both characters are pretty capable of just killing each other really quickly.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Yoshi is put in the worst position of any character when missing the tech after flame choke. According to this chart, there's literally nothing Yoshi could do to escape a jab, ftilt or dtilt (I'd also presume a dash attack and dsmash would hit Yoshi if he were to do a specific input, I'll test this with a human and find out).

Along with all that, Yoshi has bad rolls and a short get up attack. He will also land on the top platform in battlefield, granted a stage without platforms may actually provide the same bonus due to the ease we have after a flame choke. After flame choke, you should either dtilt to rack up damage and try following up if you could, or ftilt for the kill. The scare factor of this alone would push Yoshi players to play in different ways - which could be taken advantage of.

Yoshi shouldn't get gimped, so only go off stage where you are sure you'll hit. I would choose an omega stage with closer blatzones to take the raw power of ftilt (flamechoke > ftilt) and put it to best use, this will null Yoshi's heavy weight.

All in all, I think Ganon has a fair chance, as does Yoshi, in this match-up. Ganon should be able to deal with egg shots, and avoid key moments where Yoshi has you locked in the air, and watch-up for those frame trap kill moves.

45:55 slightly in Yoshi's favour.

 

[Vermanubis]

Everybody's bringing up good points, so it's gonna be hard to decide one way or the other for me.

I certainly think Yoshi has the advantage. But just to make sure I'm not imagining things, I'll make a list:

Yoshi
+ Eggs - not that they're a huge advantage for him, but the small handful of truly good Yoshis I've played didn't just throw eggs in my face, rather, also tossed them in steep arcs. That means that they're much harder to PS, and they give Yoshi approach opportunities.

+ He can easily outspace us.
+ It's difficult to land against him
+ He can cover himself offstage 95% of the time with eggs
+ Can't really be gimped by Ganon
+ Takes serious advantage of our lack of OoS options with egg lay - as you can probably see in that Gungnir vid vs Yoshidora, Yoshidora took advantage of Gungnir's inability to deal with such erratic movement. You can spotdodge egg lay, but you have to be on point, because his movement leading into egg lay can be ambigious, and if Yoshi catches onto your spotdodges... then that's no good.
+Can juggle us pretty easily

- Gets the business from choke
- Easily punishable ground movement options
- A lot of his stuff's punishable on PS

I'm surprised, actually. I thought it was more even than this, but as I wrote, I couldn't think of any other truly solid advantages we have on Yoshi. And even with choke, I'm reluctant to use non-teched chokes as a reference, since it's assuming sub-optimal game-play unless it's like with Bowser, wehre, tech or no tech, we have guaranteed follow-ups.

I've had the pleasure of fighting both Yoshis who play with chutzpa, and those who play as if their mother's life depended on their winning. The former of which made the MU seem almost in Ganon's favor. The latter of which wasn't so fun.

I say 60:40 for Yoshi in light of all this.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Egg Roll is ok for repositioning sometimes. It's a little easier to get away with than DA if your goal is to get to the other side of the stage in a way that catches your opponent off guard. I believe it can be shieldgrabbed if you do it really fast, but that tends to be difficult to do on the spot.
Wait, I am not even sure what you're trying to argue about neutral. I mean, I already argued Yoshi does have Jab and Egg Lay which take some fairly hard reads for Ganondorf to punish. But overall, I would believe that Ganondorf for the most part has an answer to most of the things Yoshi can do in neutral, on top of having a great punish game to keep up with Yoshi's huge damage, which puts the matchup fairly close.

To repeat, I see this as 55/45 Yoshi due to his close range options, but overall this matchup is capable of going either way when both characters are pretty capable of just killing each other really quickly.

I wasn't responding to you directly, but to the idea expressed a few times previously that eggs are so easy to deal with/punish.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Eggs thrown in high arcs can be a definite pain in the arse. It's similar to the effect of megaman's crash bomb in that it can be used to force a shield, which in turn can be used for a practically free grab.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

You guys are underestimating eggs...All im seeing is power shield power shield power shield. Y'all might not use yoshi so its fine that you don't know, but the main use for eggs is against people in the air. And people in ganons air mobility class are like a wet dream. When we throw an egg you can take the hit, you can fast fall airdodge to the ground, you can blow a double jump, you can go to the ledge or whatever, but we literally do not care what you do in reaction to the egg. We have an angle to cover any individual option, some that cover 2 options, and an angle to force you to do something or take a hit. We don't even really throw the eggs to hit you half of the time, we just wanted to try to force an option out of you. So what we have is a super safe and super easy way to either get free damage or force situations that we like. If you read what egg we want to do perfectly, the hardest punish you can get off on us is landing. And all of this isn't taking into the account options we have against your landings that aren't eggs.

Eggs against recovering opponents are usually just for free damage against people we can't easily gimp/aren't at kill percents. We don't really throw these at you, we just throw them at where you're going. Since you're ganon, we don't have to read your air dodge because if we arc it right, it'll linger and hit you anyway. Just need to read your DI. And if you get hit too close to the stage you're getting fair'd pretty much for free. If you ever get egg gimped you did something horribly wrong though. To gimp you we have to put ourselves out there.

Well since I talked about eggs might as well just talk about how i feel about the matchup in general. Yoshi has a super easy time against ganon for most of the game because we can punish him really easily, BUT none of the easy punishes are kill moves. Your window to win the matchup is when we're trying to kill you. Because of rage, trading and wiffing are usually out of the question for us towards the end.

IMO we win, but by how much is up for debate. I need to play more ganons to make a judgement there. Doesn't seem as bad as the brawl matchup in some aspects though so theres that.

 

[Regralht]

Yeah, Yoshi seems to do pretty well in that MU. At a glance I'd call it 60|40 at worst for Yoshi.

As long as Yoshi is constantly running away (JC Egg Toss to punish any sort of approach, Nair shenanigans), I can't really imagine Ganon being able to do much, honestly. I'm unsure of how useful Ganon's Uair would be, using it to stop some of Yoshi's aerial approaches. Flame Choke is great if you get the opportunity to land it, but good luck with that.

If any of you want a better feel for the MU, I'd be down for some 3DS or Wii U matches. FC: 2664-2129-3777 NNID: Regralht