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The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

NinKenDo64

NinKenDo64

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
92
Location
Montgomery, AL / Columbus, GA
Mumbo said:
Where is everyone getting these exact numbers like "top 7" and "17th"? I need to see people's tier lists.

King DeDeDe: Bait and punsih. Yes everything he has outranges you, but that's the point. He has a lot of endlag, so bait and punish. Down air is very effective against him because hes a fatty, and down b kills at really early percents because hes a floaty. Down b is easyish to hit because hes a fatty, and if he goes for a lot of grabs, which he probably will, grab parry/sportdodge -> down b is an excellent option. Nair is a good option to edgeguard him, but when he's doing his up b, his hitboxes will likely beat the nair when hes rising and falling. Nair destroys DeDeDe's jumps and the start up of his up b, however. As for getting edgeguarded by DeDeDe way offstage, yeah, sucks, can't really do anything about it. All I can say don't get hit far offstage. Don't run into any of his grabs by the ledge either, because bthrow can lead into some nasty stuff on Yoshi.
Click to expand...
I can vouch for this. On stage DDD is combo food but once your offstage it might be gg to your stock. His grab and follow-ups spell extinction for you. I've played TheReflexWonder's DDD in sets with the Yosh for a number of games and it can get rough.
 
Garr

Garr

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Joined
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Mumbo said:
King DeDeDe: Bait and punsih. Yes everything he has outranges you, but that's the point. He has a lot of endlag, so bait and punish. Down air is very effective against him because hes a fatty, and down b kills at really early percents because hes a floaty. Down b is easyish to hit because hes a fatty, and if he goes for a lot of grabs, which he probably will, grab parry/sportdodge -> down b is an excellent option. Nair is a good option to edgeguard him, but when he's doing his up b, his hitboxes will likely beat the nair when hes rising and falling. Nair destroys DeDeDe's jumps and the start up of his up b, however. As for getting edgeguarded by DeDeDe way offstage, yeah, sucks, can't really do anything about it. All I can say don't get hit far offstage. Don't run into any of his grabs by the ledge either, because bthrow can lead into some nasty stuff on Yoshi.
Click to expand...
Okay, that makes sense. Comboing Dedede is no problem 'cuz he's big and heavy, but my biggest grime with him is that Yoshi can't edgeguard him at all if he recovers high, and he is very capable of doing so with those waddledashes. I could throw eggs, but unless I'm on a platform, he'll just zip right over them and ride the Dair-plane.

Oh, wow. That ****ing Dair is why I being above Dedede is a bad idea. The range and speed of that move makes it so viable to use from below when you're on platform, and it comboes to a fastfall Nair to grab. If he's on a platform, don't even dare to approach from below. Go from the sides.

Recovering against Dedede is just awful. He can go in so deep or wall you out with Dair's and Fair's. Dthrow to offstage Fair is so nasty on Yoshi. You can Di away to avoid the follow-up, but it still puts in a bad position. Even in Dedede can't catch up on the way up, you're still above him, and you don't want that.

Wow, if it wasn't for things like CC Down B, this would be a hopeless MU for Yoshi, but it looks more into Dedede's favor, at least that's what I think. Then again, there aren't people who are good with the character, but the one I play against is so smooth and on point.
 
Mumbo

Mumbo

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Garr said:
Okay, that makes sense. Comboing Dedede is no problem 'cuz he's big and heavy, but my biggest grime with him is that Yoshi can't edgeguard him at all if he recovers high, and he is very capable of doing so with those waddledashes. I could throw eggs, but unless I'm on a platform, he'll just zip right over them and ride the Dair-plane.

Oh, wow. That ****ing Dair is why I being above Dedede is a bad idea. The range and speed of that move makes it so viable to use from below when you're on platform, and it comboes to a fastfall Nair to grab. If he's on a platform, don't even dare to approach from below. Go from the sides.

Recovering against Dedede is just awful. He can go in so deep or wall you out with Dair's and Fair's. Dthrow to offstage Fair is so nasty on Yoshi. You can Di away to avoid the follow-up, but it still puts in a bad position. Even in Dedede can't catch up on the way up, you're still above him, and you don't want that.

Wow, if it wasn't for things like CC Down B, this would be a hopeless MU for Yoshi, but it looks more into Dedede's favor, at least that's what I think. Then again, there aren't people who are good with the character, but the one I play against is so smooth and on point.
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If he recovers high, cover his options. He can 1. Hold up b and land on stage with a hitbox but suffer a ton of lag. 2. Cancel his up b and go for ledge. 3. Cancel up b and float slowly down to the stage. You just have to be ready.

Im not sure how to beat waddledashing. Ive had limited success with upsmash but thats about it. Just be ready to punish him when he lands or go back to neutral.

As for recovering, try recovering high, and sometimes cancelling the jump with an eggtoss grab the ledge. I dont ever use this and i rarely see others using it, but its a very good tactic that im practicing now and i hope to use in the future.
 
Garr

Garr

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Mumbo said:
As for recovering, try recovering high, and sometimes cancelling the jump with an eggtoss grab the ledge. I dont ever use this and i rarely see others using it, but its a very good tactic that im practicing now and i hope to use in the future.
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I do that ALL the time. Best way to sweetspot a ledge, and a potentially great way to ward off an edgehog. It's probably your best shot for recovering low.
 
Damp

Damp

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If you get a grab on Tink you can combo the **** outta him. Basically like a 0-death with tech chases.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I was joking, btw. It's a pretty bad MU for yoshi

Toon Link can abuse neutral by camping, and toon links large amount of BKB on his moves lets him break yoshis double jump armor and CC. Yoshi lacks proper approach options vs tink.

not surprised that you think its good for yoshi though since no good tinks exist
 
Damp

Damp

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Lunchables said:
I was joking, btw. It's a pretty bad MU for yoshi

Toon Link can abuse neutral by camping, and toon links large amount of BKB on his moves lets him break yoshis double jump armor and CC. Yoshi lacks proper approach options vs tink.

not surprised that you think its good for yoshi though since no good tinks exist
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The thing about no good tinks is very true, but I still don't think it's a bad MU. One grab is a huuuuuge combo. As long as the Yoshi avoids getting dash attacked as he's recovering, then there should be no gimps.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Yoshi shouldn't be getting a grab on toon link

Dash Attack isn't even CLOSE to what you have to worry about. Fsmash, Dsmash, Dair, Up B, toon link is a mess of kill moves and they'll break your double jump armor easily. DA is only good because it sends at a low angle, not because of its KB. Yoshi probably has a better time vs DA than his other stuff
 
hamyojo

hamyojo

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Damp, hun, at the highest levels grabs are really hard to get. But yeah you're right, TL is a great combo weight, but it's more relevant that he's so good at running away. And Lunchables is right, there's also moves like down air that break Yoshi's armor crazy early. This MU is pretty bad for Yoshi in Melee, too, and here it only feels like it'll be worse. Oh well. I think it can be pretty stage dependant, but all the PM legal stages are so freaking big the MU is in TL's favor.
 
Mumbo

Mumbo

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hamyojo

hamyojo

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Haha oh god I just go 6-0'd by @ Shokio Shokio 's ZSS. That MU does not feel good, but I also wasn't playing my best. Not sure what I should do. Thinking about a counter pick, but I also definitely wasn't playing it right. She's so hard to combo and projectiles make me wanna approach so bad. It was very frustrating.
Or maybe I'm just a giant fraud.
 
Shokio

Shokio

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Mumbo said:
Top 7? who else would you put in the top 7?
But yes, I'm glad a non Yoshi main has the mental capacity to put some thought into their opinions rather than regurgitating whatever trash the general population spits out. Good on you. I agree he was secretly high tier in 3.0 and I think he's slightly better now with how hard everyone else was nerfed.
Click to expand...
Fox, Falco, Shiek, Roy, Yoshi, Diddy (?) Bowser (?)

Not so sure about the other two slots, I still have to feel them out as well as the rest of cast, but I definitely think that the first 5 I listed are definitely in the top percentile of the roster. But for the sake of the thread, let's not discuss who I feel is Top 7 and keep the topic on Yoshi.

But yeah, the main reason why I say Yoshi is near the top now is because he didn't necessarily receive the 3.5 treatment that mostly everyone else received - he's a 3.02 character in 3.5. I think what has happened was that since Yoshi was largely under-utilized and unrepresented, there really weren't any known, active pro players showing everyone just how good he was. Therefor, the Dev Team was unaware of some of Yoshi's silly attributes.

  1. For instance, he still has a 3.02-esque down-throw; it's pretty much guaranteed at any percent regardless of DI.
  2. In the 3.5 blogpost #7 "Trimming the Fat", they Dev Team claimed that one of their target goals was to fix "moves that hit at unintuitive angles." Yoshi's Down-Smash is pretty much a grounded 3.0 Diddy Fair, except it sends you at an even lower angle. And given the insane KB it has on it, as well as range, it's a pretty insane move.
  3. Down-tilt is pretty much an on-stage Fox shine. It can place an opponent off-stage way too easily.
  4. Frame 3, 30 active frames, armor-able kill move that can be performed out of shield.......?
  5. Most characters' moves who have adjusted KB's and such so that it's easier to escape combos if proper DI is used. With Yoshi, I dunno, when he hits you, it just feels like you're stuck and the only way you're getting out of the combo is if the Yoshi player messes up. He just hits so hard you stay in hitstun forever , it feels like.
  6. The hitboxes on some of his moves are unnecessarily long/large, IMO. Down-tilt swats people out of the sky.
  7. Side-B hit-confirms into a guaranteed aerial even at like, 170%. Unless you're playing a floaty or somethin.
  8. His Down-B is waaaaaaay too safe given the high reward he gets off it. It's a Low-Risk-Extremely-High-Reward move. I feel like it should have more endlag or no stars or somethin.
These things in combination with the fact that he suffers low hitstun (trying to combo him can be very risky at times) and is VERY hard to kill due to his weight, his amazing kill options/power, and his rising Nair edge-guards make him a top-notch character in my eyes. He has his weaknesses of course, like being "screwed" if he doesn't have his double jump, but honestly his floatiness in-combination with even half-way decent DI means that he flies higher than a standard character, meaning Side-B is often all that's required to get back to the stage in the first place. I don't think his recovery is as blaring of a weakness of some people may think.

Or maybe I just suck at exploiting it.

Welp, I typed more than I expected to. Sorry for the long post lol. But that's why I think Yoshi is as good as he is. If anyone disagrees, that's fine, we're here to debate and discuss, after all.

@ hamyojo hamyojo I just watched our set again. Honestly I think you were just kinda auto-piloting.
 
Last edited:
Garr

Garr

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Shokio said:
Fox, Falco, Shiek, Roy, Yoshi, Diddy (?) Bowser (?)

Not so sure about the other two slots, I still have to feel them out as well as the rest of cast, but I definitely think that the first 5 I listed are definitely in the top percentile of the roster. But for the sake of the thread, let's not discuss who I feel is Top 7 and keep the topic on Yoshi.

But yeah, the main reason why I say Yoshi is near the top now is because he didn't necessarily receive the 3.5 treatment that mostly everyone else received - he's a 3.02 character in 3.5. I think what has happened was that since Yoshi was largely under-utilized and unrepresented, there really weren't any known, active pro players showing everyone just how good he was. Therefor, the Dev Team was unaware of some of Yoshi's silly attributes.

  1. For instance, he still has a 3.02-esque down-throw; it's pretty much guaranteed at any percent regardless of DI.
  2. In the 3.5 blogpost #7 "Trimming the Fat", they Dev Team claimed that one of their target goals was to fix "moves that hit at unintuitive angles." Yoshi's Down-Smash is pretty much a grounded 3.0 Diddy Fair, except it sends you at an even lower angle. And given the insane KB it has on it, as well as range, it's a pretty insane move.
  3. Down-tilt is pretty much an on-stage Fox shine. It can place an opponent off-stage way too easily.
  4. Frame 3, 30 active frames, armor-able kill move that can be performed out of shield.......?
  5. Most characters' moves who have adjusted KB's and such so that it's easier to escape combos if proper DI is used. With Yoshi, I dunno, when he hits you, it just feels like you're stuck and the only way you're getting out of the combo is if the Yoshi player messes up. He just hits so hard you stay in hitstun forever , it feels like.
  6. The hitboxes on some of his moves are unnecessarily long/large, IMO. Down-tilt swats people out of the sky.
  7. Side-B hit-confirms into a guaranteed aerial even at like, 170%. Unless you're playing a floaty or somethin.
  8. His Down-B is waaaaaaay too safe given the high reward he gets off it. It's a Low-Risk-Extremely-High-Reward move. I feel like it should have more endlag or no stars or somethin.
These things in combination with the fact that he suffers low hitstun (trying to combo him can be very risky at times) and is VERY hard to kill due to his weight, his amazing kill options/power, and his rising Nair edge-guards make him a top-notch character in my eyes. He has his weaknesses of course, like being "screwed" if he doesn't have his double jump, but honestly his floatiness in-combination with even half-way decent DI means that he flies higher than a standard character, meaning Side-B is often all that's required to get back to the stage in the first place. I don't think his recovery is as blaring of a weakness of some people may think.

Or maybe I just suck at exploiting it.

Welp, I typed more than I expected to. Sorry for the long post lol. But that's why I think Yoshi is as good as he is. If anyone disagrees, that's fine, we're here to debate and discuss, after all.

@ hamyojo hamyojo I just watched our set again. Honestly I think you were just kinda auto-piloting.
Click to expand...
There are some things I'll have to disagree with, but like you said, it's a discussion.

Yeah, Yoshi didn't suffer much from 3.5 schtick, but it's mainly due to how he really wasn't that good. Compared to the godlike Mewtwo and Diddy in the last version, he was a joke, but now with everyone nerfed, he'll do much better in this version. The biggest nerf he had was more lag on side B, as in 3.02, it was a braindead move that started to centralize the character due to it's janky mobility and guaranteed combo follow-ups. That's not the case in 3.5, though. I can't get much leeway on that move unless my opponent DI's badly or they're at mid-high percents.

D-throw is not that good. If you DI down and away, Yoshi can't get a follow-up. Dash attack or Neutral-B could be possible, but when the grab itself is so laggy (unless it's the godly pivot grab) that you get a free punish on miss, I don't trust that move in the neutral unless I know it'll land. Guaranteed follow-ups are more common at high percents, where you can kill floaties with Uair or fastfallers with Nair.

Yoshi's punish game is a thing of beauty, but if you're getting stuck in extensive strings, SDI is vital. Yoshi's aerial movement is so unconventional, that it's hard for him to react to DI. He'd kill to have Captain Falcon's movement.

D-smash is a godsend, but it's very risky to just throw it out. Not a lot of combos can end with it as a finisher, but though the move itself is incredibily fast, the ending lag is atrocious. Best thing to use it for is punishing on-sweetspotted recoveries. The angle is ridiculous, but be glad it can't be done in the air or be L-cancelled like Diddy's Fair.

Another thing that could help you in the MU. Yoshi has an unfavorable lack of disjoints, and some of his hurtboxes are just stupid, like in his Bair. Abuse that when @ hamyojo hamyojo approaches with Bair. His range is good, but Nair is his only good disjoint.

The ZSS matchup in 3.02 was just awful for Yoshi, but it got better in 3.5, but it's still doable for ZSS. The more you play against Yoshi, the more you start understand his tricks. Force him to approach. That's his major weakness in the MU. Take care, bro.
 
hamyojo

hamyojo

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I'll do better against ya next time Shok. Sorry for a poor performance. Maybe I should, like, be awake for at least an hour before every tourney.
 
Mumbo

Mumbo

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Shokio said:
Fox, Falco, Shiek, Roy, Yoshi, Diddy (?) Bowser (?)

Not so sure about the other two slots, I still have to feel them out as well as the rest of cast, but I definitely think that the first 5 I listed are definitely in the top percentile of the roster. But for the sake of the thread, let's not discuss who I feel is Top 7 and keep the topic on Yoshi.

But yeah, the main reason why I say Yoshi is near the top now is because he didn't necessarily receive the 3.5 treatment that mostly everyone else received - he's a 3.02 character in 3.5. I think what has happened was that since Yoshi was largely under-utilized and unrepresented, there really weren't any known, active pro players showing everyone just how good he was. Therefor, the Dev Team was unaware of some of Yoshi's silly attributes.

  1. For instance, he still has a 3.02-esque down-throw; it's pretty much guaranteed at any percent regardless of DI.
  2. In the 3.5 blogpost #7 "Trimming the Fat", they Dev Team claimed that one of their target goals was to fix "moves that hit at unintuitive angles." Yoshi's Down-Smash is pretty much a grounded 3.0 Diddy Fair, except it sends you at an even lower angle. And given the insane KB it has on it, as well as range, it's a pretty insane move.
  3. Down-tilt is pretty much an on-stage Fox shine. It can place an opponent off-stage way too easily.
  4. Frame 3, 30 active frames, armor-able kill move that can be performed out of shield.......?
  5. Most characters' moves who have adjusted KB's and such so that it's easier to escape combos if proper DI is used. With Yoshi, I dunno, when he hits you, it just feels like you're stuck and the only way you're getting out of the combo is if the Yoshi player messes up. He just hits so hard you stay in hitstun forever , it feels like.
  6. The hitboxes on some of his moves are unnecessarily long/large, IMO. Down-tilt swats people out of the sky.
  7. Side-B hit-confirms into a guaranteed aerial even at like, 170%. Unless you're playing a floaty or somethin.
  8. His Down-B is waaaaaaay too safe given the high reward he gets off it. It's a Low-Risk-Extremely-High-Reward move. I feel like it should have more endlag or no stars or somethin.
These things in combination with the fact that he suffers low hitstun (trying to combo him can be very risky at times) and is VERY hard to kill due to his weight, his amazing kill options/power, and his rising Nair edge-guards make him a top-notch character in my eyes. He has his weaknesses of course, like being "screwed" if he doesn't have his double jump, but honestly his floatiness in-combination with even half-way decent DI means that he flies higher than a standard character, meaning Side-B is often all that's required to get back to the stage in the first place. I don't think his recovery is as blaring of a weakness of some people may think.

Or maybe I just suck at exploiting it.

Welp, I typed more than I expected to. Sorry for the long post lol. But that's why I think Yoshi is as good as he is. If anyone disagrees, that's fine, we're here to debate and discuss, after all.

@ hamyojo hamyojo I just watched our set again. Honestly I think you were just kinda auto-piloting.
Click to expand...
1. Yeah. If they were to nerf downthrow, I would hope they would give one of his other useless throws something so getting a grab could at least be a DI mixup. If they didn't, that compared with his super risky grab game may make grabbing nearly useless anyways.
2. Pretty gross, and performable out of shield. Though, I personally don't think it needs to be changed drastically. Maybe a tiny angle tweak or KB nerf like Fox's upsmash.
3. I wouldn't say it is anywhere near fox's shine, but it is a good set KB, low angle move.
4. Sick. Plus, it's one of the best combo breakers in the game (DJC nair) up with gnw up b, dk up b, and luigi nair.
5. Hmmm I don't know what to say about this. What kind of combos in particular are you struggling with? Most of my combos end up being techchases with fair or dair. Sometimes I use DJC uairs, which are kindof like chaingrabs in the sense that they are inescapable up to a certain percent but you can mixup your di and pray your opponent screws up. You can't DI out of rising uair -> aerial but I have to read your DI, I can't react to it (unless your DI sucks).
6. I would trade the large dtilt hitboxes to get a hitbox on the base of the tail. Royzoning with dtilt the 1/10 games where it makes a difference is super annoying.
7. I still think this move was nerfed in the wrong way. Giving it a huge cooldown reduces most of its utility while retaining its stupid approach and combo power (except on shield of course). I think instead it should have speed and damage reduced and its KB/angle adjusted so followups weren't guaranteed. If they did that now, however, in addition to the cooldown nerf, it would only see use in Yoshi's recovery.
8. I don't think safety is the issue. I think down-b is the number 1 move that NEEDS to get nerfed. If you get hit by down b from the air, then damn, I'm sorry, your fault. If you get hit by the grounded down b, you can still smash DI out of the strong hitbox, but thats fairly difficult. What needs to get nerfed is the insane kill potential this move has. This is the easiest way to kill floaties period. This move alone makes Luigi lose so hard, when otherwise, Luigi would probably be fairly positive against Yoshi. The move is fairly punishable, but you have to train yourself to not get hit by the stars. move out of the way of the down b (or shield) wait for the stars, then run in and punish. I play Yoshi dittos quite often and I have no trouble punishing this move because I know the star timing very well.

I think your top 7 is very interesting as well. I'm surprised you see Roy, Shiek, and Bowser? as top tier, and you still think diddy is top tier. Perhaps because Shiek and Bowser have the best edge guards in the game?
 
TomBoComBo

TomBoComBo

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544
I'm not entering and I'm still shaky on if I can actually go or not. If I do, it'll only be for Saturday because I have more important stuff going on the next day (ae. my girlfriend's birthday). I'll keep you guys posted
 
hamyojo

hamyojo

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TomBoComBo said:
I'm not entering and I'm still shaky on if I can actually go or not. If I do, it'll only be for Saturday because I have more important stuff going on the next day (ae. my girlfriend's birthday). I'll keep you guys posted
Click to expand...
As a Yoshi main you're only allowed to have Yoshi as bae.
 
deeseejay

deeseejay

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Jan 22, 2014
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Has anyone got any insights on the Wolf match up?

Lazers now shut down aerial mobility and the hit stun causes a free drill shine which you either comboed out of or stuck in shield due to shine pressure.

I keep reading you can cc shine, but you can't cc drill shine which is his safest approach.

Any ideas? I just comboed all day long and his fsmash, dsmash, bair and said all destroy super armour.

Get tips would be really really appreciated.
 
Scatz

Scatz

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I never got to ask @ Mumbo Mumbo , what is FL doing for housing? I might and Garr could get there, but we need housing.
 
Mumbo

Mumbo

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Garr said:
@ Scatz Scatz , I'm down with this :o.
Click to expand...
Booking deadline is December 2nd (same as the discount registration deadline) and the deal is available the nights of Jan 15, 16, and 17. You guys have a bit of a drive so you might need to book jan 15th depending if you want to get up early to drive the 16th or not.
 
hamyojo

hamyojo

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I've been labbin', guys. I'm catching up to you crazy kids with your PM tech. Deciding if I should buff out the bad MU's with Yoshi or play Shiek or something. Hmm.
 
Abyssal Lagiacrus

Abyssal Lagiacrus

Fly across the high seas and mountains
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I forgot how fun it is to just practice tech in Melee and PM. Been working on my Melee Yoshi, Melee Ganon, PM Yoshi, and PM Ganon.
One thing though, do any of you think it's harder to ledge-egg in PM than it is in Melee? I can do it pretty consistently in Melee but I feel the physics are a bit different in PM and it throws me off.
 
Scatz

Scatz

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Some talking Tombo and I did after a netplay session. Feel free to pluck any useful information you find:

  • tombo mario is strong at counterplay and throwing out fast smashes and attacks after sidestepping or baiting
  • [4:17.49am]
    tombo most good marios will always throw out a move after shield or after sidestep
  • [4:18.07am]
    tombo always be aware of his wavedash distance
  • [4:18.45am]
    tombo basically, shield after doing something and you're safe
  • [4:19.01am]
    tombo then you can OoS nair or shieldDI away to restart neutral
  • [4:19.24am]
    tombo mario dies ^ to Uair at 120ish
  • [4:19.41am] Scatz you're talking from Yoshi's perspective?
  • [4:19.45am]
    tombo yes
  • [4:19.48am] Scatz k
  • [4:19.52am]
    tombo are you wanting the other way around>
  • [4:19.53am]
    tombo ?
  • [4:19.56am] Scatz naw
  • [4:20.00am]
    tombo good
  • [4:20.01am]
    tombo lol
  • [4:20.06am] Scatz was just confused for a sec
  • [4:20.06am] Scatz lol
  • [4:20.09am]
    tombo because I'd have no real idea
  • [4:20.34am]
    tombo but if you force mario to tornado
  • [4:20.50am]
    tombo you can get a free rising fair
  • [4:21.08am]
    tombo any points I didn't hit?
  • [4:21.28am] Scatz naw you're good
  • [4:21.31am] Scatz keep going
  • [4:21.36am]
    tombo ok, next is Pika
  • [4:21.46am]
    tombo pika I'm actually shaky on
  • [4:21.53am]
    tombo he's very very fast
  • [4:22.15am]
    tombo and OoS Uair supplies so much pressure
  • [4:23.06am]
    tombo BUT Pika is on the heavy/light spectrum that fox and falco are
  • [4:23.29am]
    tombo pika dies to Nair off the side of dreamland at 85%
  • [4:24.25am]
    tombo Pika's air game is very fast but the hitboxes are small
  • [4:25.12am]
    tombo with almost all characters, if the hitboxes are close to the body, you can dashback and pivot grab, tanking almost anything or getting the grab for free
  • [4:25.48am]
    tombo pika you have to start it 1/4th of the way through his shorthop in order to get a good grab
  • [4:26.00am]
    tombo that bugger is fast and his shorthop is long
  • [4:26.39am]
    tombo but pika's second jump is slow and has much less horizontal distance
  • [4:27.27am]
    tombo pika only has a few options from a doublejump approach
  • [4:27.46am]
    tombo all of them can be grabbed with good spacing
  • [4:28.08am]
    tombo quick attack is a toughy especailly when canceled
  • [4:28.24am]
    tombo but Nair will stuff it most of the time
  • [4:29.00am]
    tombo edge guarding pika is all about forcing him to weave around eggs and make errors
  • [4:29.35am]
    tombo a good practice is to throw 2 eggs, one to kiss the ledge but go past
  • [4:29.43am]
    tombo and one to land on the ledge
  • [4:30.05am]
    tombo in alot of MU's this scares the opponent into waiting on the ledge
  • [4:30.21am]
    tombo giving you time to think, try to gimp or get space or whatever
  • [4:31.06am]
    tombo Yoshi's fair downsmash and downtilt will smash fingers on the ledge, if they wait too long, they get knocked off
  • [4:31.23am]
    tombo next is falco yeah?
  • [4:31.27am] Scatz yep
  • [4:31.46am]
    tombo falco is tough if he's into laser approachs
  • [4:32.05am]
    tombo even then, it's not hard to avoid shines
  • [4:32.48am]
    tombo try to powershield the lasers, but the best practice to get into Yoshi's butter zone vs faclo is to shield the approach
  • [4:33.21am] Scatz butter zone?
  • [4:33.40am]
    tombo about a wavedash and a half away from falco
  • [4:33.51am] Scatz k
  • [4:34.09am]
    tombo far enough that he can't do squat, close enough where he's too scared to laser
  • [4:34.20am]
    tombo this is where you want to be
  • [4:34.47am]
    tombo because all he can do is try to do is dair you
  • [4:35.15am]
    tombo some falcos will shffl dair
  • [4:35.20am]
    tombo some will fullhop
  • [4:35.29am]
    tombo some will doubejump fullhop
  • [4:36.13am]
    tombo the last 2 are usually practiced by the same player and this player won't be the most aggressive player
  • [4:36.48am]
    tombo all you gotta do with that is know how to bait his jump and you can grab him before he even hits the ground
  • [4:37.05am]
    tombo pivot or spaced standing there
  • [4:37.17am]
    tombo but I get ahead of myself alittle
  • [4:37.42am]
    tombo if falco approaches you with a dair or Nair and you know he wants a shine after
  • [4:38.24am]
    tombo then you shield DI away from him and you're free to take the shine without fear of a doubleshine or shinegrab
  • [4:38.31am]
    tombo or you can just roll away
  • [4:39.18am]
    tombo spacies are perfect combo weight for Yoshi and Yoshi has a large number of options to gimp them
  • [4:39.52am]
    tombo as you saw when I played you, I would Uthrow or Dthrow and simply Utilt or jab
  • [4:40.38am]
    tombo this forces falco to think and the extra jab at the end will either reset falco or if you do it early, will eat his input to roll or tech
  • [4:41.28am]
    tombo all you gotta do is get him offstage with a nair or dtilt or whatever you line up, and throw a single egg to cover the ledge
  • [4:41.43am]
    tombo you want it to kiss the ledge but not touch
  • [4:42.04am]
    tombo and you want it to line up with when falco could phantom to ledge
  • [4:42.23am]
    tombo I did that to you 3/4 stocks every game
  • [4:43.11am]
    tombo then you can actually go down and rising Nair him if you're ambitious enough to easily close the stock out
  • [4:43.33am]
    tombo (since faclo's firebird has no starting hitboxes like fox's firefox)
  • [4:44.09am]
    tombo otherwise you can hog or you can punish any non-sweetspot with fair, dtilt or dsmash
  • [4:44.24am]
    tombo or an intercept rising diar or nair
  • [4:44.32am]
    tombo anything I've missed/
  • [4:44.43am] Scatz not to my knowledge
  • [4:44.53am] Scatz Zard and then I need to sleep
  • [4:44.54am]
    tombo do you have any questions?
  • [4:44.59am]
    tombo same
  • [4:45.45am] Scatz no questions
  • [4:45.48am]
    tombo kk
  • [4:46.04am]
    tombo Zard is an even or slightly in Yoshi's favor MU
  • [4:46.16am]
    tombo mainly due to zard's size
  • [4:46.36am]
    tombo but zard has hard hitting and huge aerials
  • [4:46.47am]
    tombo he has no other way to approach you
  • [4:47.35am]
    tombo he'll always try to hover about a platform distance away so he can Nair or bair
  • [4:48.17am]
    tombo your zone against zard is right outside his ftilt range
  • [4:49.22am]
    tombo if he tries to dtilt you, you can cc and do it right back, yours is faster and will actually knock him away and you can actually catch his tail before his dtilt is over
  • [4:49.48am]
    tombo but give zard respect if he's in the air, he has much bigger boxes
  • [4:50.11am]
    tombo only try things when you're directly below him
  • [4:50.43am]
    tombo because Nair starts above his head, you can get Uairs or a Nair or anything for free if you're under him
  • [4:50.57am]
    tombo because zards nair*
  • [4:51.33am]
    tombo when wanting to approach zard, you want him close to or actaully on the ground or having just put an aerial out
  • [4:52.02am]
    tombo Bair gives you all the damage you'll need to do things
  • [4:52.12am]
    tombo and it carries him with you for followups
  • [4:52.32am]
    tombo if he's just put out an aerial, it's a no brainer how to do it
  • [4:52.49am]
    tombo on or close to the ground, it depends on his player type
  • [4:53.09am]
    tombo if he's aggro, you can jump in and take his momentum away easy peasy
  • [4:53.47am]
    tombo if he's patient, you need to be wary of him keeping to his spot and guarding it with zard's disjointed tilts and jabs
  • [4:54.04am]
    tombo you just need to bait or dtilt him away
  • [4:54.44am]
    tombo zard is a patient MU but you can kill him of the top early-ish
  • [4:55.21am]
    tombo eggs are to be used wisely because zard can actaully use them to get back to stage
  • [4:55.47am]
    tombo if the zard isn't gliding, you can abuse eggs
  • [4:56.35am]
    tombo zard is fat enough that dair will decimate him and there is no roy-zone when grabbing him
  • [4:56.46am]
    tombo or very little
  • [4:57.35am]
    tombo in all MU's try to catch your opponent's inputs
  • [4:58.00am]
    tombo if you know what they want, you can challenge it
  • [4:58.43am]
    tombo because if you know before they even press the button, you're just stuffing their input and that's how bad DI and mistakes happen
  • [4:59.33am]
    tombo some of this stuff may be weird but my whole game is mental so I'm sorry if any of it is off-base
  • [5:00.09am] Scatz naw it's cool
Click to expand...

Abyssal Lagiacrus said:
I forgot how fun it is to just practice tech in Melee and PM. Been working on my Melee Yoshi, Melee Ganon, PM Yoshi, and PM Ganon.
One thing though, do any of you think it's harder to ledge-egg in PM than it is in Melee? I can do it pretty consistently in Melee but I feel the physics are a bit different in PM and it throws me off.
Click to expand...
To me, PM ECE is slightly faster. I can do both fairly consistently now that I've practiced them up, but I typically only do one or two throws.

hamyojo said:
I've been labbin', guys. I'm catching up to you crazy kids with your PM tech. Deciding if I should buff out the bad MU's with Yoshi or play Shiek or something. Hmm.
Click to expand...
I'm still labbing as is. Almost 1 year in the making lol. Which MUs you feel are bad?
 
Garr

Garr

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
100
Location
Savannah, GA
Great news, y'all. I finally got my hands on a capture card the other day, and now I just need the cables for it (which are coming in the mail, soon), so I'll finally be able to record stuff c:

It's gonna feel good to visually inform people how to use the character.
 
hamyojo

hamyojo

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
551
Location
DFW
PM ECE's feel VERY different if you're used to Melee. It's about the same speed IMO, just very different visual cues.

And the MU's I'm scared of are ZSS, Toon Link, Luigi, maaaaybe Zelda(but I honestly think ZSS and Toon Link are kinda scarier), and others. I just gotta play more MU's, I don't get all the practice I want vs unique characters.
Also I played with Lunchablahs a bunch yesterday. We ended up playing more SD Remix than PM, lol. He got pretty tired of some of Yoshi's sillier crap.
I got one crazy d-throw>ftilt>all hits of dair except for last one>jab jab combo and it just did a **** ton of damage. I should try to use more dair, it has so little l-canceled lag.
 
Scatz

Scatz

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
2,593
Location
ATL, GA
Yoshi is more floaty in PM. He rises up slightly faster than in Melee, and the turnaround change made it feel even more floaty than 3.02. I've been practicing both, and you have to do PM's version slightly faster compared to Melee's.

I've had trouble vs ZSS since 3.02. She's been a complete ***** since she can run circles around Yoshi.

Maybe I need to play vs some better Zelda's, but I haven't had trouble with them. I'll admit that 3.5 Zelda is weird especially with Din's Fire acting like Rose's Ultra LOL. Really annoying to get used to.

GA hasn't had those more obscure characters though like TL and Luigi. Hopefully I'll get to play a few at Paragon so I can come up with a few ideas of the MU.
 
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