The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Garr]

Hey guys, I've changed my Smash tag, so I'll be switching over to a new account.

My new username is Garr.

Nothing personal regarding my old name. Just thought I'd use it for something else. Off to the new account .

Alright, this is my new account. Just confirming it so you all don't think I'm someone else lol.

 

[hamyojo]

http://challonge.com/pmatoverdrive4 Beat Infinity's MK in a 3/5. Yesss. I'm improving and getting the hang of these Yoshi things pretty quick, Oracle's helping me a bit too. This character is so much fun. Also yes Ike is very scary, he breaks armor super early. Guess you just gotta space him out and stuff him.
Also I've played a ton of Mewtwo sets today. Sadly they weren't recorded, but I learned a lot. I think the MU's even and pretty hard for both. I don't like it when he runs away from me

And yes you guys are right pivot grab is amazing I'm using it a lot more now. Holy cow. Dat quick tongue.

 

[Garr]

Yup. Yoshi was the main reason I started learning pivot grabs.

As for Mewtwo, the matchup sorta evened out in 3.5 due to Mewtwo's nerfed u-tilt, reduced tail length, and removal of his completely safe approaches. Oh, and if he teleports from below the stage, that's a stock for Yoshi right there. It's really hard to sweetspot the ledge from below. Hard to combo, and that Fair is still pretty damn fast (frame 6 i think?), so Mewtwo does tend to combo-break Yoshi's punish. All in all, patience is key. Boring, but it's what you gotta do.

Again, this is why I hate using Yoshi against floaters. It's hard to his punish game started, but it's so worth it when the punish can be potential 0-to-deaths. At least floaters die to a d-throw to up-air after 120% on most stages.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Been playing Yoshi on and off. After watching Hamyojo's newest videos, they made some comments that made me want to check some data in Brawbox. I figured 3.5 would fix the weird hurtboxes on back air, up air, and a few others, but they weren't. Is it known why tail attacks have such weird random hurtboxes? Why would they leave it in?

Because programming videogames is hard. And there aren't enough players who main yoshi to complain about his problems. We'll just work with what he's got for now

 

[hamyojo]

Yup. Yoshi was the main reason I started learning pivot grabs.
As for Mewtwo, the matchup sorta evened out in 3.5 due to Mewtwo's nerfed u-tilt, reduced tail length, and removal of his completely safe approaches. Oh, and if he teleports from below the stage, that's a stock for Yoshi right there. It's really hard to sweetspot the ledge from below. Hard to combo, and that Fair is still pretty damn fast (frame 6 i think?), so Mewtwo does tend to combo-break Yoshi's punish. All in all, patience is key. Boring, but it's what you gotta do.

Again, this is why I hate using Yoshi against floaters. It's hard to his punish game started, but it's so worth it when the punish can be potential 0-to-deaths. At least floaters die to a d-throw to up-air after 120% on most stages.

I didn't know the MU or even play seriously in 3.02 lol. Can't believe people played that game for so long. Regardless, yeah, you have to be super patient against Mewtwo. I think eggs are pretty good if placed close to/around Yoshi. Side b feels useless in the mu. Down b is a godsend. A few of the top players around here are starting to think down b is broken cause of me lol. Its hard to figure out what will go through Mewtwo's Nair. I know Nair will, but usmash only does like half the time. Idk I should probably study some hitboxes.
Also Mewtwo's Nair is frame 4
:3

 

[Garr]

I didn't know the MU or even play seriously in 3.02 lol. Can't believe people played that game for so long. Regardless, yeah, you have to be super patient against Mewtwo. I think eggs are pretty good if placed close to/around Yoshi. Side b feels useless in the mu. Down b is a godsend. A few of the top players around here are starting to think down b is broken cause of me lol. Its hard to figure out what will go through Mewtwo's Nair. I know Nair will, but usmash only does like half the time. Idk I should probably study some hitboxes.
Also Mewtwo's Nair is frame 4
:3

I wouldn't throw any eggs in the neutral. Mewtwo can just teleport into whatever he pleases. Even if you throw an egg close to you, teleport can be turn around, and if spaced correctly, Mewtwo can still use Fair to start his combos. Mewtwo's side B beats egg roll all the time. @ Scatz tends to use a great option where he crouch cancels into down B. Solid kill option against floaters like Mewtwo :3

 

[Scatz]

I use Jab > Down B more than anything else. It's a habit from brawl because Jab 1 ends up becomes a frame trap at certain percents. Plus, I often forget that I can CC whenever I should use it. lmao

Mewtwo's tele range, in 3.02, was the main thing that HAD to be respected. It still often is now because he can still catch people off guard. I just learned to not really challenge Nair since the hitboxes are annoying to deal with for Yoshi's positioning.

Also, Egg lay be good now. extended range and momentum mixups make it tons more powerful. Some stuff you probably haven't heard of hamyojo is B-reverse, and Wavebounce special moves. They really help change up momentum instantaneously and apply more pressure since we use DJC aerials so much.

 

[Damp]

Example of egglay use.

 

[Garr]

View attachment 32332
Example of egglay use.

Considering how the Sheik player airdodged out of the egg, no doubt he was in panic mode. Still, it's hard to get a follow-up on egglay 'cuz of the opponent getting invincibility on the way and the fact that a more collected player will wait a little to throw off your timing. Hards reads, tho.

 

[hamyojo]

Haha oh no I may get some stuff nerfed with the way I play. Calling it now. Expect changes to Yoshi's shied, his down b, and maybe other things to be nerfed in next build. I'm havin' a lot of fun. The more I play Yoshi the more good I think he is. For now he's about top 10 imo.

 

[Festive]

View attachment 32332
Example of egglay use.

Man I feel like the only Yoshi main that doesn't know the right times to do egg lay...I always miss and end up being punished for it

 

[Garr]

Haha oh no I may get some stuff nerfed with the way I play. Calling it now. Expect changes to Yoshi's shied, his down b, and maybe other things to be nerfed in next build. I'm havin' a lot of fun. The more I play Yoshi the more good I think he is. For now he's about top 10 imo.

I dunno, man. Yoshi's not bad, but I wouldn't say he's top 10. There's still some MU's where he just crumbles because of his lack of safe options in the neutral game. But his punish game and mobility is where he truly shines.

The side b nerf was understandable, but aside from that, this character is centered around being a noob-crusher, like Bowser. I still use Yoshi against some people in sets cuz they flat-out don't know the MU, so I get a free win. And the mentality of everyone thinking that the character's low tier causes psychological harm to the opponent, 'cuz they're thinking "I'm not losing to a frikkin' Yoshi, oh no!"

Yoshi's fine as he is, but if Sethlon's growing into some grudge against the character, well, ****.

 

[hamyojo]

Oh, no, no way. Yoshi is not broken as a whole, not at all. Its just a few little things are kinda crazy.
Also, I'd like y'all to list off what you think are Yoshi's bad MU's. That'd be pretty helpful.

 

[Damp]

Oh, no, no way. Yoshi is not broken as a whole, not at all. Its just a few little things are kinda crazy.
Also, I'd like y'all to list off what you think are Yoshi's bad MU's. That'd be pretty helpful.

Falco because shine eats armor at 0%. Zelda because fair and bair eat armor. Basically anyone who can chew through your armor.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Oh, no, no way. Yoshi is not broken as a whole, not at all. Its just a few little things are kinda crazy.
Also, I'd like y'all to list off what you think are Yoshi's bad MU's. That'd be pretty helpful.

Worst MU:
Zelda

not terrible but still Bad MUs:
Kirby
ganon
Samus
G&W

Unfavorable MUs:
Falco
ZSS metaknight
Wario
ICs
Ivysaur
Link
Charizard
TnLink

Even:
DK
Roy
Mario
Yoshi
Luigi
Squirtle
Pika
Ike

Favorable:
Diddy
Fox
Falcon
Bowser
Snake
Sonic
Marth
Jiggs
Lucario
Sheik
Mewtwo
Pitt

Best:
Wolf

Unknown (to me):
Peach
Olimar

 

[hamyojo]

Wow. I'm surprised by this. I was going even with Oracle's Zelda. Also, my Yoshi annihilates Ganon's, but that's likely because my training buddy mains him.
I'm surprised you think Samus is a worse MU than Ike. I'm pretty damn scared of Ike.

 

[Scatz]

Zelda isn't that hard when you don't get in their face all the time to get smacked by LKs.

Imo annoying MUs include: Falco, ZSS, Peach, and Ike. The rest I'm not knowledgeable on.

 

[Garr]

Zelda's hands-down the worst MU. I can't connect anything without eating love crystals or heel kicks. I'm also terrified to fight her with Mewtwo. Her aerials kill him at 80%. Overall, they're both boring match-up where all you do is wall her out and punish her slow moves.

Falco is only a bad MU if you take him to a large stage, like PS2 or FD (Oh, god not FD >_>). I remember the pool matches I had in Tipped Off 10 where I was going against a Falco player, and I CP'ed Yoshi's Story and annihilated him there. Point is, don't give Falco any room to breath. You have an insta-gimp move on him, and small stages help tremendously in landing them, and no way he's coming back after a D-smash.

I have mixed feelings for Ike, Ganon, and DK. They all share that raw power that eats through your armor, but their weight and falling speed is perfect for Yoshi's combos. I know people who play these characters, and only DK gives me issues since that Bair is godlike for edgeguarding poor Yoshi.

Overall, a bad MU for Yoshi are characters that hardly get combo'ed, hard to approach, and eats his DJ armor for breakfast.

 

[Scatz]

I'm gonna have to play some of you guys Zelda players. I've not struggled with that matchup at all compared to some others. She's just so slow where you can abuse her lack of movement to create openings. She really only gets good punishes when you're caught being overly aggressive or caught off guard.

 

[Garr]

I'm gonna have to play some of you guys Zelda players. I've not struggled with that matchup at all compared to some others. She's just so slow where you can abuse her lack of movement to create openings. She really only gets good punishes when you're caught being overly aggressive or caught off guard.

Didn't you fight Terrell's Zelda when you came down here? I know I'm not the most patient player, but feels like I'm playing with fire in this MU.

 

[Scatz]

I did. I beat him 2-0 in the set we played, and he said that Zelda doesn't have any good ways to lock Yoshi down for the bigger hits (something along those lines). He's the best Zelda I've played here in GA, but I definitely don't see anything that makes Yoshi crippled. Zelda is just good when someone runs into her ****.

 

[Garr]

Yeah...

Looking back at my sets against him, he auto-wins if I'm playing Super Stylish Bros: Project Tech (AKA autopiloting). Zelda's so hyper-defensive that any brainless approach is gonna hit you like a brick wall.

 

[Damp]

I actually find Peach to be in Yoshi's favor. Up air destroys her and I'm pretty sure you can combo down throw -> fair at a good range of percents

 

[TomBoComBo]

Wow. I'm surprised by this. I was going even with Oracle's Zelda. Also, my Yoshi annihilates Ganon's, but that's likely because my training buddy mains him.
I'm surprised you think Samus is a worse MU than Ike. I'm pretty damn scared of Ike.

this was a relatively quick breakdown, Samus might be misplaced, she's impossible to deal with on netplay.
Ike on the other hand, I've never thought to be too difficult, mainly because he can't recover unless he sweetspots the ledge. did you know that you could dashattack his upB recovery mid recovery? that's why he doesn't scare me. If you want proof of that, I've shown Mumbo, maybe I can get a recording of that up

@ Scatz the Zelda MU changed slightly from 3.02, but the invincibility of Naru's makes followups difficult and she has large hitboxes to counter stray hits. Sure she can't lock you down, but she can sure as hell play a counter game and wait you out. I had a nice long training session with Zhime, this MU may not be horrendous, but it is not fun.

Also I've only faced 1 notable ganon and the real thing is float is still a bit of a wildcard to me, it makes the MU more difficult to deal with from 3.02. thoroughly knowing the MU is different from fully knowing the player, so it may be you got your buddy on lockdown and not ganon, but I wouldn't know, everyone hates spacies and I'm always happy to fight them

 

[Mumbo]

Www.twitch.tv/vsgc

Ill probably be commentating/playing at some point throughout. If you got nothing better to do on a wednesday tune into the stream.

 

[Mumbo]

My opinion:

Zelda is by far the worst as everyone else said.

Pretty unfavorable includes Peach, ZSS, Kirby, Ike(major change since 3.0), Link, Samus.

Slightly unfavorable includes falco, ganon (you beat him in neutral, combo him to hell, and edgeguard him pretty well), tink, gnw, ROB.

Even is wario, dk, bowser, marth, ness, ivysaur, ICs, Pit, sheik, DDD, yoshi, snake, mario, puff.

Slightly favorable is lucas, mewtwo, pikachu, squirtle, charizard, Meta Knight, sonic, luigi.

Favorable is captain falcon, fox, roy, diddy, lucario.

Gg i win is wolf, olimar.

 

[Mumbo]

http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/b/597898527?t=21m

I think I've gained a little insight into the samus matchup. I've found that I've got to be just aggressive enough to shutdown missile spam but not too aggressive that I run into wavedash back shenanigans. I try to imagine a vertical line right through the middle of the platform and approach with a nair placed such that my toe reaches just beyond the line. This stuffs any missiles and here Yoshi has the advantage.

I sucked against his lucario though. Just choked after getting excited that this may be the first time I beat Cruz after 5 losses in tournament.

 

[Shokio]

Yoshi's top-tier.

 

[Garr]

Yoshi's top-tier.

Shhhhhhhh! He's mid tier at best -wink-

 

[Mumbo]

Yoshi's top-tier.

Do you actually believe that or is that your way of getting over hamyojo wooping you?

in all seriousness though I dont think hes quite OP top tier, but hes top 15 maybe top 10. A lot of people here agree.

 

[Garr]

Far from top tier. That rank belongs to Mr. Sir 20XX Fox McCloud.

Honestly, Yoshi's one of those characters that has a lot of good MU's thanks to an explosive punish game and gimping tools, but also alot of bad MU's due to glaring issues in his approaches. It's a risky character to handle, which is why he works better as a secondary, or a main with secondaries that are chosen to specifically counter his bad MU's. I know a friend who mains DK, but also plays G&W for this reason. Top 10? Nope. Top 15? Ehhhh. Top 20? Maybe.

I am loving @ hamyojo 's work on this character, though. Makes we wanna start using Yoshi more.

 

[Shokio]

Do you actually believe that or is that your way of getting over hamyojo wooping you?

in all seriousness though I dont think hes quite OP top tier, but hes top 15 maybe top 10. A lot of people here agree.

No. I did just come in here and say that though just to get a reaction of out him.

I've been saying it for a looooong while now lol. People are just now catching on, but I knew. I always knew. He's always been a great character, the problem is that he was underrepresented so nobody was really showing it.

Back then though it was an exaggeration I would use to state how underrated he was, but now there's some actual truth to it, in my opinion. I'd definitely place him in the Top 7, maybe even higher.

But yes Top Tier will always belong to Mr. McCloud, because he is untouchable, the daddy of Melee. The Dev Team wouldn't dare make any significant changes to the King.

 

[Mumbo]

No. I did just come in here and say that though just to get a reaction of out him.

I've been saying it for a looooong while now lol. People are just now catching on, but I knew. I always knew. He's always been a great character, the problem is that he was underrepresented so nobody was really showing it.

Back then though it was an exaggeration I would use to state how underrated he was, but now there's some actual truth to it, in my opinion. I'd definitely place him in the Top 7, maybe even higher.

But yes Top Tier will always belong to Mr. McCloud, because he is untouchable, the daddy of Melee. The Dev Team wouldn't dare make any significant changes to the King.

Top 7? who else would you put in the top 7?
But yes, I'm glad a non Yoshi main has the mental capacity to put some thought into their opinions rather than regurgitating whatever trash the general population spits out. Good on you. I agree he was secretly high tier in 3.0 and I think he's slightly better now with how hard everyone else was nerfed.

 

[Garr]

No. I did just come in here and say that though just to get a reaction of out him.

I've been saying it for a looooong while now lol. People are just now catching on, but I knew. I always knew. He's always been a great character, the problem is that he was underrepresented so nobody was really showing it.

Back then though it was an exaggeration I would use to state how underrated he was, but now there's some actual truth to it, in my opinion. I'd definitely place him in the Top 7, maybe even higher.

But yes Top Tier will always belong to Mr. McCloud, because he is untouchable, the daddy of Melee. The Dev Team wouldn't dare make any significant changes to the King.

Underrated? Absolutely. Top 7? I dunno...

I understand your claim that he is high tier, and Yoshi's niche is that he's a character that you'll fight a thousand times and still get thrown off by what he does. That's the power of being unconventional. If anything, Yoshi shines well as a noob-crusher.

However, once you get past his bag of tricks, that's where the problems start being glaringly obvious. His punish game is fantastic, but frustratingly difficult to start due to a lackluster and borderline luck-based neutral. There is a loooooooooooot of personal bias in this thread, and I will try to understand certain claims, but mastering Yoshi is like playing a low tier with a secret God Tier mode. Insanely volatile at times, but not much consistency to be as reliable as characters with more defined and understandable neutrals.

Still amazing amazing against people who don't know what to do XD. I get free sets off pools and early bracket for this one reason.

And lol, I feel so bad for all the people who complain about Fox, cuz if the PMDT so much as touch them, they lose a lot of appeal from the Melee community. I know this one guy who went on blast for Falco having his Dair's spike frames shortened. Oh, well. Git gud and learn how to 0-to-death them and it's aight :D.

 

[TomBoComBo]

3.02 Yoshi was easily top 7. 3.5 Yoshi is upper mid, top 15

 

[hamyojo]

Yoshi's good idk I think he's anywhere from 17th to 8th also character ranking doesn't matter that much but it sure is fun to talk about lets talk about something important like the Toon Link match up or something

 

[Damp]

Toon Link is EZ. Next question.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Yoshi's good idk I think he's anywhere from 17th to 8th also character ranking doesn't matter that much but it sure is fun to talk about lets talk about something important like the Toon Link match up or something

Projectiles are beat by well timed aerials. Nairs and Fairs will do the trick and hit him while still in throw animation. You can DJC wavedash through the projectiles to eat them and approach from the ground. Pick larger stages but that's opinion based. Dthrow chains or gives you a free Usmash. throw eggs to kill bomb jumps

 

[Garr]

Projectiles are beat by well timed aerials. Nairs and Fairs will do the trick and hit him while still in throw animation. You can DJC wavedash through the projectiles to eat them and approach from the ground. Pick larger stages but that's opinion based. Dthrow chains or gives you a free Usmash. throw eggs to kill bomb jumps

Why use Fair when Nair is hella faster and does the same trick? I can only see that option is viable if you're reading Toon Link's approach as he follow behind the projectile, but that's about it. A weak Nair might give you a follow-up at mid-high percents, but if not, it goes back to neutral. It's only punishable by grab approach, but Fair takes years to finish.

Using the armor is cool and all, but even though it's preventing flinching, you're still taking damage. I'd rather not let my opponent have free damage if the only result is not flinching. Wavedash OoS and DJL's all day, son. Full hop weaving out to DJC fastfall Fair is a good evasion that converts to a punish, but kind of a hard read. Just don't take damage if it's avoidable.

Yoshi's good idk I think he's anywhere from 17th to 8th also character ranking doesn't matter that much but it sure is fun to talk about lets talk about something important like the Toon Link match up or something

I'm gonna have to agree with this more than Top 7. Come on, guys, this is Yoshi we're talking about >_>. Still, I can't make a tier list on the fly. I can for Smash 4, but this is Project M we're talking about. Every character is viable once you tap into what they can do, and Yoshi is no exception, but none of them are untouchable.

But if someone was legitimately psychic, and always knew when the opponent was gonna hit them and used Yoshi's armor to punish it, he would be god tier. No other character has as much control over the armor as Yoshi, so that's a major plus. Too bad no one's psychic. Still, nothing is more golden than your opponent's reaction when the armor just eats through the hits and you Nair them back.

Toon Link MU's kinda troublesome if the other guy's is stopping or punishing your approaches. Yoshi just has a hard getting in, so the best thing to do is be patient and force them to approach you instead. Nair, neutral B, and pivot grab are your best options in the neutral, and Toon Link's weight allows some nasty punishes >:3.

Now I'll ask you about another MU. Never really know what to do against Dedede, even though I fight one all the time. He can go in super deep that it's a challenge to even make it back, and he outranges EVERYTHING Yoshi has (except Neutral B).

 

[Mumbo]

Where is everyone getting these exact numbers like "top 7" and "17th"? I need to see people's tier lists.

Toon Link: this is a matchup I have a lot of trouble with as well, complete with a 3 stock carnage from Lunchables. The name of the game is get Toonlink offstage then throw eggs. Yoshi demolishes tethers with a rising nair or ledge hop nair so Tink will essentially be forced to use up b to get back. Be careful against that, though, because it kills armor fairly early and its very disjoint. I find out of shield options to be really effective, such as downsmash and DJC nair. Grabs and downthrow are godly on Toonlink, and like Tombo said, you can chaingrab with it if they DI forward, or you can upsmash it, but Toonlink is also very susceptible to DJC uair chains (which I know tombo doesnt like) and you can always end it early with an upsmash to be safe. Toonlink get juggled hard and doesn't have a good answer to get out of it. DJC uairs are one of the best ways at racking up damage so that a downsmash +edgeguard can kill at ~70%. Big stages are absolutely the go to against Toon Link because he has a hard time killing you. You will easily live to 160+ on a stage like Dreamland. However, Toon Link camping the platforms has always been a problem for me, so pay attention to whether the particular Toon Link (i'm assuming it's lunchables) abuses the top platform.

King DeDeDe: Bait and punsih. Yes everything he has outranges you, but that's the point. He has a lot of endlag, so bait and punish. Down air is very effective against him because hes a fatty, and down b kills at really early percents because hes a floaty. Down b is easyish to hit because hes a fatty, and if he goes for a lot of grabs, which he probably will, grab parry/sportdodge -> down b is an excellent option. Nair is a good option to edgeguard him, but when he's doing his up b, his hitboxes will likely beat the nair when hes rising and falling. Nair destroys DeDeDe's jumps and the start up of his up b, however. As for getting edgeguarded by DeDeDe way offstage, yeah, sucks, can't really do anything about it. All I can say don't get hit far offstage. Don't run into any of his grabs by the ledge either, because bthrow can lead into some nasty stuff on Yoshi.