The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Kudrah]

also, what do yall think of a community yoshi guide on a google doc or somesuch? it might be a nicer way of organizing and collecting MU knowledge, quirks and tech etc. than on the forums themselves, and i think it'd be good to have it all in one place

That's a great idea, but there's a problem to that: NO ONE IN THIS THREAD IS A TOP PLAYER. This is my brutally honest opinion. PM Yoshi has yet to have a proper representative.

None of us has had the potential to break through and show a prime example of how Yoshi is played. Sure, in my area, everyone thinks my Yoshi is the thing of nightmares cuz it's so tricky, but that's only because they don't know the matchup or they're just inexperienced players. I can't just win by being able to press so many buttons and doing endlessly intricate Yoshi shenanigans. Any top player will see through my habits and gimp me at the worst possible time. I believe that @ Scatz and I are the most technical Yoshi's, but all that means nothing when the core fundamentals aren't put into consideration.

Yoshi requires SO MUCH effort and dedication to even do remotely well in tournaments. Let's face it. We're dealing with a character that has limits, more than most other characters in the roster. 3.5 nerfed that scrubby side B, so no one can just "easy-mode" their way into victory like in the last version. This goes for all the god-tier characters in the last version (Diddy >.>).

If this guide became a thing, the only reliable information it would have is how-to's on advanced techniques, frame data, and loosely opinionated match-up knowledge. That's not enough.

This is a ridiculously hard character to master (harder than spacies, in my opinion) and that alone is a testament to how godly aMSa is. But notice his neutral game. It's nothing but hard reads, waveland shenanigans, and occasional parries. If you just go in with an aerial, you might just snipe out his 2nd jump and he's dead no matter what. It's extremely risky, but aMSa is by no means a lacking player. It's the character that's lacking when it comes to the neutral. Hell, his longest range move (neutral B) hardly gives a punish. Oh, and never use side B in the neutral. Ever. It got what it deserved in 3.5, and no player should allow it to be the center of their Yoshi game.

Let's face it. We're dealing with a lacking character. Sure, his punish game is amazing, but that means nothing if he can't get it started. But I say with all due respect that to make Yoshi viable, we have a lot of room in the skill gap to fill to make up for that bad neutral.

A friend of mine wonderfully summarized what he thinks about Yoshi whenever I use him: "you just try so hard." Couldn't agree more. I can't teach anyone how to use Yoshi fundamentally. The only thing my neutral relies on is insane tech and being a trickster. Side B has done more bad to the character than it did good. It overshadowed the requirement to learn all of Yoshi's movement options. I used to be a side B scrub, too, but I worked hard in the lab to reincarnate the forgotten Melee style.

If any of you REALLY want to make that guide, I ain't stopping you. I'm just warning you about the fact that it'll have a huge hole in it. Once I do get recording equipment, I'll probably make a tech guide. There is no Yoshi player who uses every single tool in his arsenal, and that needs to change. This would the first step to understanding the neutral game. Give the player all the tools to expand his options, and see what he makes out of them.

TL;DR we all suck, hurr durr I'm da most techy dino, neutral game issues, tech guide's nice tho

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[TomBoComBo]

I'll break the wall with Yoshi

 

[Mumbo]

i don't disagree with any of your points there but something i think could be interesting and valuable even in a guide w flawed points regarding strategy and MU knowledge is the capacity for critique among the contributors. while it's true that there isn't a top player representative of yoshi on these forums that i know of (hamyojo took sethlon out of winner's in a DFW weekly recently but he doesn't post much about pm yoshi afaik) i think it's possible that we could build off of and learn from each of our individual approaches to the character to some extent

and for what it's worth i think there could be a focus on more concrete and consistent aspects of MUs (chaingrab %s, guaranteed combos, KO %s, counterpicks etc.)

basically one of the things that appeal to me about something along these lines is something similar to the playstyle critique we give to people based on their performance in videos but centered more around theory and approach to the character

Hamyojo is an excellent super smash brothers player, and he transferred his skill in melee to pm while picking up a few extra techniques very well, but he does not know much about the character or the game. I would advise against learning very many things from him, at least until he gets invested in pm, if he ever does. He has bad habits, and did a lot of blatantly wrong this due to matchup inexperience (trying to rising nair roy or trying to legdgehog by just rolling).

But yes you are right. And @ K Kudrah right now were in a situation where there are a bunch of decent yoshis with very different playstyles and skill sets and knowledge and ideas. Discussing matchup knowledge and writing guides and bouncing off of eachothers ideas are probably the best things we can do. We dont need one yoshi god to come and tell us how to do everything.

 

[didds]

I'm sure most of the good yoshi's just don't post here since smashboards rots your brain.

Best Yoshi I've seen so far is probably Angel from AZ.

@ TomBoComBo we'll be waiting patiently

 

[Kudrah]

Hamyojo is an excellent super smash brothers player, and he transferred his skill in melee to pm while picking up a few extra techniques very well, but he does not know much about the character or the game. I would advise against learning very many things from him, at least until he gets invested in pm, if he ever does. He has bad habits, and did a lot of blatantly wrong this due to matchup inexperience (trying to rising nair roy or trying to legdgehog by just rolling).

But yes you are right. And @ K Kudrah right now were in a situation where there are a bunch of decent yoshis with very different playstyles and skill sets and knowledge and ideas. Discussing matchup knowledge and writing guides and bouncing off of eachothers ideas are probably the best things we can do. We dont need one yoshi god to come and tell us how to do everything.

I never said that none of had the potential to become that Yoshi god. It's just that we can't forget that we're biting a lot more than we can chew. This is the reason I stopped using Yoshi in tournaments. Why should I be hindering myself with a character that falls apart against 80% of the roster? This game isn't fun if I just stick to one character. I know I'm sounding pessimistic, but maybe I'm just not mature enough to understand Yoshi. Sure, I can move well, but my fundamentals are not there with him.

If anyone's going out there to show what Yoshi can do, I won't believe any proclamation. I need to see it for myself to truly believe.

 

[Mumbo]

I never said that none of had the potential to become that Yoshi god. It's just that we can't forget that we're biting a lot more than we can chew. This is the reason I stopped using Yoshi in tournaments. Why should I be hindering myself with a character that falls apart against 80% of the roster? This game isn't fun if I just stick to one character. I know I'm sounding pessimistic, but maybe I'm just not mature enough to understand Yoshi. Sure, I can move well, but my fundamentals are not there with him.

If anyone's going out there to show what Yoshi can do, I won't believe any proclamation. I need to see it for myself to truly believe.

I know that's not what you said. What I'm saying is we don't need such a god. If you really think Yoshi sucks, you can stop playing him and I won't bother you about quitting him anymore.

 

[Scatz]

Going to make a **** post on this subject when I get home from work. Needless to say, everyone is going to be on blast since I'm tired of hearing this crap.

 

[didds]

lol yes, these boards get boring

 

[TomBoComBo]

Going to make a **** post on this subject when I get home from work. Needless to say, everyone is going to be on blast since I'm tired of hearing this crap.

Let em have it

 

[Kudrah]

There's no part of me saying I quit playing him. I only said I stopped using him in tournaments. It's just insanely hard to deal with other character's clear and definite neutrals.

 

[didds]

only some other characters

 

[TomBoComBo]

I guess I don't have an issue with it because Neutral and mental are my strong points

 

[Scatz]

Aight. Everyone is on blast.

I know a handful of people hear me downplay egg roll, but understand that the previous version disrupted people's ability to build on the foundations and make themselves better overall. Now, while most feel like it's useless, it is still a powerful tool in situations that almost all of Yoshi's tool set can't give (unless you were to achieve some difficult tech to be the equivalent). The difference now is that reaction times now need to be on point, and we need to hit the HBTC to get those uses consistent. It still has its mixup ability with the misdirection, still allows us to get away from situations due to it's speed, and w/e else we can think of. You're supposed to think outside of the box. The view of limitations (which is what half of you are seeing) is to force you to start trying new stuff, enjoy creating growth through means of trial and error. The previous version made you guys continuously think in the box because it was a good move from the get go. Seriously, list the functions that old egg roll could do and tell me that's not too strong.

On the topic of growth, realize that patches will take down overpowered options. This shouldn't be a deter from our ability to search for new tech. Stuff gets changed, and unless it's a complete overhaul, we should not even be fazed about it. It's always been like that for any traditional FG, and it should be the same for us. We make a foundation with easy combos, then learn harder ones and always keep in thought that it could be removed if it's too strong.

While having a Yoshi god helps when trying to learn things that we can apply to our game, we just need to learn from each other and twist them to how we play. Everyone is going to have a different playstyle, and that's going to open up our ability to find or apply tech better than others. Rather than saying ****s useless to mention, explain why it won't work or where it needs changing to make it work.

I don't understand the reason to downplay anything (even if it may be realistic) when none of us are truly top players (not counting high cause you ain't made it). I'm fairly sure everyone that's posting here is playing Yoshi because we love him, and there's no reason that we need to be acting as if he can't do something when he has more stuff that needs exploring than the mechanics given from his melee counterpart. Melee stuff gave us a foundation to start things, but now it's up to us to break in his new tricks and find out how we can twist them to build on what we're given.

TL;DR Stop bitchin about old ****. Act like you wanna improve Yoshi and put him on the map, and get conversation going on in here. The more **** that gets done, the easier it can be for people trying to learn Yoshi. Best organization I've seen on here is the MU threads, but everyone's MU exp is so low that it didn't work out. Let's get the tech **** done, then slowly talk about MUs that we're experienced in.

 

[Mumbo]

Aight. Everyone is on blast.

I know a handful of people hear me downplay egg roll, but understand that the previous version disrupted people's ability to build on the foundations and make themselves better overall. Now, while most feel like it's useless, it is still a powerful tool in situations that almost all of Yoshi's tool set can't give (unless you were to achieve some difficult tech to be the equivalent). The difference now is that reaction times now need to be on point, and we need to hit the HBTC to get those uses consistent. It still has its mixup ability with the misdirection, still allows us to get away from situations due to it's speed, and w/e else we can think of. You're supposed to think outside of the box. The view of limitations (which is what half of you are seeing) is to force you to start trying new stuff, enjoy creating growth through means of trial and error. The previous version made you guys continuously think in the box because it was a good move from the get go. Seriously, list the functions that old egg roll could do and tell me that's not too strong.

On the topic of growth, realize that patches will take down overpowered options. This shouldn't be a deter from our ability to search for new tech. Stuff gets changed, and unless it's a complete overhaul, we should not even be fazed about it. It's always been like that for any traditional FG, and it should be the same for us. We make a foundation with easy combos, then learn harder ones and always keep in thought that it could be removed if it's too strong.

While having a Yoshi god helps when trying to learn things that we can apply to our game, we just need to learn from each other and twist them to how we play. Everyone is going to have a different playstyle, and that's going to open up our ability to find or apply tech better than others. Rather than saying ****s useless to mention, explain why it won't work or where it needs changing to make it work.

I don't understand the reason to downplay anything (even if it may be realistic) when none of us are truly top players (not counting high cause you ain't made it). I'm fairly sure everyone that's posting here is playing Yoshi because we love him, and there's no reason that we need to be acting as if he can't do something when he has more stuff that needs exploring than the mechanics given from his melee counterpart. Melee stuff gave us a foundation to start things, but now it's up to us to break in his new tricks and find out how we can twist them to build on what we're given.

TL;DR Stop *****in about old ****. Act like you wanna improve Yoshi and put him on the map, and get conversation going on in here. The more **** that gets done, the easier it can be for people trying to learn Yoshi. Best organization I've seen on here is the MU threads, but everyone's MU exp is so low that it didn't work out. Let's get the tech **** done, then slowly talk about MUs that we're experienced in.

Haha thank you for this post. I gave the MU threads my best shot but it just felt like people weren't that interested in reading (and even less interested in helping, especially since I'm fairly lacking in the MU knowledge dept.) On the topic of this, I think we should start posting more videos. Posting videos helps because then people can critique your specific yoshi, but more importantly, there are so few PM yoshi vods around (and even fewer good yoshi vods). I find watching other people to be the easiest way for me to learn.

 

[Mumbo]

Okay I made this thread http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-vods.379528/. I'd very much appreciate you all to send me links to your matches, and I'll update the OP as we go along.

 

[Scatz]

Also, GOD DAMN PEOPLE START POSTING INSTEAD OF BEING SO UPTIGHT! This is a social chat and there's barely any talk to goes on in here other than something that is a problem for Yoshi, a tournament placing, or such. All those types of things can technically go into specific threads, but if it's 100% serious in here or in the skype chat, it's not going to make you enjoy talking with peeps when you know next to nothing about them other than smash.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Hey, everyone. I've been playing smash since Melee came out, but didn't start getting into the competitive mindset until PM 2.6, and then I only really played Link because of his wealth of options. I picked up Yoshi in 3.0, and kind of fell in love after seeing all the crazy unique tech he's got. Between his double jump armor, his double jump arc, his shield shenanigans, and his egg throw, he's got a toolset that takes a lot of skill to use, and creativity to use effectively.

I jump between Yoshi and Luigi now, but I think Yoshi is where I'm going to settle. I consider myself pretty good, if inexperienced and lacking in some fundamental work that is improving every time I play an actual human. Less often than I like, unfortunately, but it is what it is.

I'm looking forward to pushing this character to the limit and showing everyone out there that Yoshi has the potential to be amazing.

-Wyrm

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey, everyone. I've been playing smash since Melee came out, but didn't start getting into the competitive mindset until PM 2.6, and then I only really played Link because of his wealth of options. I picked up Yoshi in 3.0, and kind of fell in love after seeing all the crazy unique tech he's got. Between his double jump armor, his double jump arc, his shield shenanigans, and his egg throw, he's got a toolset that takes a lot of skill to use, and creativity to use effectively.

I jump between Yoshi and Luigi now, but I think Yoshi is where I'm going to settle. I consider myself pretty good, if inexperienced and lacking in some fundamental work that is improving every time I play an actual human. Less often than I like, unfortunately, but it is what it is.

I'm looking forward to pushing this character to the limit and showing everyone out there that Yoshi has the potential to be amazing.

-Wyrm

Join the party ask anything you need and we got you

 

[Kudrah]

So, I just finished watching Hamyojo go Ham on Sethlon. I'm impressed .

Though his tech does need a bit of refinement, he played the MU well, relying his kills on getting Roy off the stage.

 

[TomBoComBo]

he didn't grab at all

 

[Kudrah]

he didn't grab at all

Yeah, could've grabbed more, but that move is so punishable on miss. If he learned to pivot grab, tho...

 

[TomBoComBo]

the reason he lost in winners finals was because he didn't grab diddy at all. Yes it's punishable on miss, but that's why you get creative and abuse the fact that you can grab opponents while they're in the air. He lost to sephlon because he wasn't grabbing and he was simply outclassed. This is no statement against him but I think that sephlon only lost the first set because it might've been his first time ever playing against a real Yoshi. If you watch the second set, you can see that he's calmly checking options. He beat him as a player, he was figuring out the character, the game was over

 

[hamyojo]

Luck and I play a lot. He knows the Yoshi MU well and his item game was something I tried to, and failed to compete at. I believe I can beat any Diddy that isn't his, since he knows me and stuff.

Also, good news guys. I think I'm going to drop Yoshi in Melee, or at least play him a lot less. PM Yoshi has taken priority. My movement in Melee I think is one of my best parts of my play, and it's kind of bad in PM due to me not being used to the engine. This will change soon. Expect results and seeing me move a lot better and stuff. I'll do my best to show you guys what this character can do, as I will be putting a lot of time in to him.

 

[Mumbo]

Luck and I play a lot. He knows the Yoshi MU well and his item game was something I tried to, and failed to compete at. I believe I can beat any Diddy that isn't his, since he knows me and stuff.

Also, good news guys. I think I'm going to drop Yoshi in Melee, or at least play him a lot less. PM Yoshi has taken priority. My movement in Melee I think is one of my best parts of my play, and it's kind of bad in PM due to me not being used to the engine. This will change soon. Expect results and seeing me move a lot better and stuff. I'll do my best to show you guys what this character can do, as I will be putting a lot of time in to him.

I saw you post on reddit about how Yoshi Roy is noticeably in Yoshi's favor. I'm curious, what do you think are the noticeably good and noticeably bad matchups?

 

[Kudrah]

Luck and I play a lot. He knows the Yoshi MU well and his item game was something I tried to, and failed to compete at. I believe I can beat any Diddy that isn't his, since he knows me and stuff.

Also, good news guys. I think I'm going to drop Yoshi in Melee, or at least play him a lot less. PM Yoshi has taken priority. My movement in Melee I think is one of my best parts of my play, and it's kind of bad in PM due to me not being used to the engine. This will change soon. Expect results and seeing me move a lot better and stuff. I'll do my best to show you guys what this character can do, as I will be putting a lot of time in to him.

I feel you, man. I play against a Diddy all the time in my area, and every time I try to counter his item game, It's a lost cause. Eventually, I was forced to use Mewtwo and Fox to counter the MU, but this was back in 3.02. Haven't fought 3.5 Diddy yet, but I know he's not stupid good anymore.

 

[TomBoComBo]

you guysss you can chaingrab diddyyyy to deathhhh

 

[hamyojo]

I saw you post on reddit about how Yoshi Roy is noticeably in Yoshi's favor. I'm curious, what do you think are the noticeably good and noticeably bad matchups?

Roy and Marth's combos all start with good positioning. They're kind of positioning/zoning based, and Yoshi's double jump allows him to simply not be zoned due to his frame 1 armor. Especially now that Yoshi's frame 3 Nair reaches forward its so easy to bait out an unsafe air attack and freely punish. Basically Roy has to play this MU very different than every other MU. That, and parrying can mess up Roy's tech reads if he's not used to parrying. Roy has to work a lot harder, and at the end of the day its probably only 65:35, since Roy can still hit very hard. Also Roy's a wonderful combo weight.

I feel you, man. I play against a Diddy all the time in my area, and every time I try to counter his item game, It's a lost cause. Eventually, I was forced to use Mewtwo and Fox to counter the MU, but this was back in 3.02. Haven't fought 3.5 Diddy yet, but I know he's not stupid good anymore.

Diddy Kong feels like a very doable mu for the dinosaur. Hard, but doable. He's a nice combo weight, Nair oos can catch him plenty, and i think once I learn how to do so he should be easy to edge guard. Practice Diddy Kong some, it'll make you better at the MU. Its important to have a good item game in PM, guys.

 

[hamyojo]

you guysss you can chaingrab diddyyyy to deathhhh

Also, yeah I know chaingrabs are great and all, but Yoshi's best stages are short ones where the cg's don't last long due to opponents DIing off stage. And getting that first grab is still damn hard for Yoshi.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Also, yeah I know chaingrabs are great and all, but Yoshi's best stages are short ones where the cg's don't last long due to opponents DIing off stage. And getting that first grab is still damn hard for Yoshi.

if they DI off stage you can DJC egglay and get them back. otherwise if you're getting close to the edge, just follow with something other than a regrab. If it's hard to get that first grab for you, work on it. Yoshi's grab is borderline broken, use it. If you need need help with setups, talk to me.

 

[hamyojo]

if they DI off stage you can DJC egglay and get them back. otherwise if you're getting close to the edge, just follow with something other than a regrab. If it's hard to get that first grab for you, work on it. Yoshi's grab is borderline broken, use it. If you need need help with setups, talk to me.

You're oversimplifying way, way, way too much. This game doesn't work that way. That's like saying you just Nair shine with fox until they get off stage then you shine spike them. Its never that easy.

 

[Kudrah]

Yoshi's grab is borderline broken

Um... -looks through archives-

-most character can DI away before getting a follow-up-
-horrendous start-up on standing grab-
-lots of ending lag on missed running and standing grabs-
-pivot grab is the only amazing grab he has-

 

[hamyojo]

Um... -looks through archives-

-most character can DI away before getting a follow-up-
-horrendous start-up on standing grab-
-lots of ending lag on missed running and standing grabs-
-pivot grab is the only amazing grab he has-

This guy knows what's up.

 

[TomBoComBo]

now I know why some of you underestimate Yoshi.

 

[Mumbo]

Just got 4th at the most recent versus gaming center tournament. Lost to the same guy, Mojohnbo (DK) both times and i managed to get the loser's semis match on stream. Im really happy with the result as i usually get 13th and sometimes 9th and im really happy with the way i played the losers semis match. If you guys havent been watching twitch.tv/vsgc every wednesday you are missing out, but the match will be on youtube soon.

 

[Scatz]

@ Mumbo I'll catch it when the stream goes down.

Yoshi's grabs are better, but still not anywhere close to being broken. The cooldown for the range we get is pretty bland on standing grab, and dash grab is such a dangerous risk in neutral when it's quite easy to space it and punish. Pivot grab is the best Yoshi has ever gotten over the games, but it's harder than expected to apply correctly vs someone that knows how to correctly space for it. It's broken vs players that can't space worth a damn though.

 

[hamyojo]

now I know why some of you underestimate Yoshi.

Hey man you have a lot of good stuff to say but I'm not going to blindly believe you.You gotta explain yourself a bit better. Claiming something is broken without backing it up is simply toxic.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Hey man you have a lot of good stuff to say but I'm not going to blindly believe you.You gotta explain yourself a bit better. Claiming something is broken without backing it up is simply toxic.

there are simply more than enough setups and micro situations that allow you to get almost free grabs. Sure, Kurah can back up the lag on the move, or say that spacing is what outdoes it, but what if you can just know when you're able to grab and how to do setups? Yoshi's grab can get people that are in the air at a distance, Nobody expects (even after having it happen to them) to be grabbed before they can Lcancel. Yoshi has some ridiculous grab armor frames to abuse, and grab parrying sets up as many grabs as you want. Looking at the grab on its own is a waste of time and especially detrimental when its usefulness is undermined by something as simple as spacing. If the opponent's spacing is good, bait them into situations where grab is the best option and parry them, you get anything you want. That or play a better spacing game. You can throw out a late fair and cancel before hitboxes come out (forces your opponent to roll, shield, or spot dodge) then you jab, dash, pivot grab (on shield), pivot or dash grab (on roll), or standing grab (spotdodge). Maybe you whiff a dash grab and almost get punished/get punished, next time you're in that micro-situation, make for a dash grab but wavedash back to bait out the spotdodge then get your free grab. Experiment. sure grab is weak on its own, especially if you miss (no ****), but play mind games and you get grabs. If I can get grabs on LiquidKen, who's spacing and mind games are almost supreme, Yall can get grabs on no-names.

 

[TensenROB]

I'm also a big fan of Yoshi's grab game because of all the free punishes you get. But you've been throwing around Ken's name for months now and since it's not recorded I can't actually see how you're implementing this stuff. Are you able to get stream coverage at a tournament in the future? Personally I want to see how much you've improved from the time you posted those videos, and being a netplay player myself I know netplay isn't as good as console play. Hamyojo actually has video of GF vs Sethlon and I wouldn't group him with nonames.

 

[Kudrah]

Can we also bring up that Ken is incredibly rusty at the moment? He's nowhere near the splendor of his glory days, or everyone just upped their game far more than he ever has. Lack of practice does that to you.