The Crystal Caves - The Yoshi Social Thread

[Kudrah]

Might as well throw in all of my 2 cents.

Well, overall, I'm a little conflicted about 3.5 Yoshi. Sure, the new mechanics buffed his staple DJC, but side B's increased ending lag makes it really hard to combo into until the mid-high percents. Also, it nerfs his already lackluster recovery, and I understand everyone's recoveries are getting nerfed, but did Yoshi really need it? The only time I can survive past 150% is when the opponent knows how to gimp/edgeguard well.

Timings do feel different, but all I need to do is keep playing the character until my muscle memory catches on to it. One thing I found to be really cool in particular by using debug mode's hitbox toggle is that a frame-perfect egg stall is 100% invincible (until you the ledge grab limit exceeded). It's hard to do, but it's legit. At my best, I do get either 100% invincibility or 1-2 frames without it. Also, the collision toggle is an amazing tool for practicing wavelands, something vital to Yoshi's shenanigans on platforms.

At least ppl won't abuse side B as much anymore.

 

[Qwinn Yoshi]

I'm so happy they nerfed Eggroll :D, now let's see who mains Yoshi and who mains Eggroll.
But didn't fix parry .

 

[Kudrah]

I'm so happy they nerfed Eggroll :D, now let's see who mains Yoshi and who mains Eggroll.
But didn't fix parry .

I feel ya, dude :/.

 

[jtm94]

On Sheik at 25% you can still exit egg roll and get a guaranteed uptilt while she is in hit stun before she hits the ground. It just isn't able to be abused on shield now.

 

[didds]

It's so unsafe on shield now, it's become a true tech chase option, almost like a falcon raptor boost

 

[Sylnic]

-Double Jump--Turns around on frame 6 of Double Jump to allow execution of reverse double jump aerials
--Will now Double Jump Cancel if jump is not held on the first 7 frames of any aerial attack

Does anyone else think that there's some cool new movement options hidden in here? I'm hoping to look into this when I get home from school today. I think the djc change will allow us to float a bit more with aerials. I'm fairly certain I was able to get Fair out of a low djc last night. In 3.02, Yoshi would hit the ground before the fair came out. I plan on making a separate post later today on some of the 3.5 changes.

 

[Mumbo]

On Sheik at 25% you can still exit egg roll and get a guaranteed uptilt while she is in hit stun before she hits the ground. It just isn't able to be abused on shield now.

Yes exactly this. I'm a little disappointed with eggroll as I think it was nerfed in the wrong way. It can still be abused as an approach, combo starter, combo extender, and techchaser. It's just unsafe on shield like you said, and basically unviable for movement, which is the disappointing part for me. I think a better nerf would have been to reduce it's damage output all around (thereby reducing it's shield stun to the point where it wasn't safe anymore) and reducing it's speed so it was less free as an approach.

 

[didds]

I like it, egg roll's mobility was one of the reason Yoshi mains weren't exploring all of their movement options, which is sad since Yoshi is one of the most mobile characters without that janky and unhealthy move.

Now i can watch egg roll abusers get wrecked like should happen. It was toxic and I honestly think this is for the best, especially with how the nerfs hit everyone. My grab combos and grab game is intact, as well as all of the other core Yoshi play that makes him solid.

btw, are ECE's safer now? UpB seems different and feels better now. Maybe I'm just crazy and my practice is paying off lol. DJL OoS also feels different, but again, it's probably just me.

 

[Kudrah]

ECE's is a legitimate 100% invincible ledge stall if you're near frame-perfect. I know this now thanks to debug mode.

 

[Mumbo]

ECE's is a legitimate 100% invincible ledge stall if you're near frame-perfect. I know this now thanks to debug mode.

Even with ledge invincibility changes?

 

[Sylnic]

Even with ledge invincibility changes?

As far as I'm aware, the only change to the invincibility mechanic is that he'll only be invincible for 5 ledge grabs. After the 5th one, he'll no longer gain invincibility from grabbing the edge. Yoshi will regain the ledge invincibility after landing on stage.

 

[Kudrah]

Even with ledge invincibility changes?

As long as you don't go past the ledge grab limit, it can be 100%, but it's REALLY difficult and precise. Most of the time, I get about 1-2 frames of vulnerability before the regrab.

 

[Scatz]

About parry: Tbh, he doesn't need parry since he can jump OoS now. Parry is much less effective, but I feel like the bug on where attacks go through the initial shielding frames is something harder to fix than what's seen.

ECEs are still potent. Just now, you'll need to not take forever when trying to get up.

I feel like they sped the game up just a little. Stiffer controls with faster gameplay sort of balances things out? idk. ECEs definitely felt easier to do now, but that's also due to Yoshi's DJ being faster in PM than in Melee.

I'm cool with the changes. They took out the jank when Yoshi never needed it.

 

[Kudrah]

About parry: Tbh, he doesn't need parry since he can jump OoS now. Parry is much less effective, but I feel like the bug on where attacks go through the initial shielding frames is something harder to fix than what's seen.

ECEs are still potent. Just now, you'll need to not take forever when trying to get up.

I feel like they sped the game up just a little. Stiffer controls with faster gameplay sort of balances things out? idk. ECEs definitely felt easier to do now, but that's also due to Yoshi's DJ being faster in PM than in Melee.

I'm cool with the changes. They took out the jank when Yoshi never needed it.

And now everyone will be forced to learn wavelands. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA! >

But seriously, it gives all the merits of side B's mobility without the jank and more options.

 

[Scatz]

Side B is still good in getting out of sticky situations. It's less free to zigzag out of opponent's ranges, and it's not busted when it comes to shield pressure. It's a little more than just a techchase option, but primarily that. Besides, the hitbox when starting it from a platform is still retained (dunno if that's the case once you land on a platform then fall back off), so a lot of people will most likely get fooled by that.

 

[Sylnic]

Warning, big post.

This patch is going to be really interesting for Yoshi players. The side-B nerfs were definitely deserved, and the Dair nerfs will make 0 to death combos much harder/creative. However, the DJ changes along with some of the engine changes have created some interesting movement options, as well as making DJL options easier to execute. I’d like to go over some of the changes individually, as well as some of the DJL options that are feasible now. I’ll try and get a video up later of some of these techs.


I’ll go over the Double Jump turnaround first. This change doesn’t do too much, though I honestly don’t like it. I feel like it just makes turn-around aerials take longer to execute, and reverse double jump aerials weren’t that hard to do in the first place. This isn’t a change I’m fond of.


Double Jump Cancel on the first 7 frames of an aerial attack presents some new options Yoshi didn’t have before. Not only does it make DJCing easier, it allows Yoshi to float with his aerials a little more before fast falling. Yoshi can use this to move more horizontally with his aerials before falling back to the ground, or float with his aerials a little more without discarding the option of fast-falling. I’m honestly not sure how we can use this yet other than some stalled aerials and quick approaching fairs from the ground. This requires more looking into.


With the engine changes allowing multiple jump inputs even when one button is held in, Double Jump Landing is much easier to execute. I think now is the perfect time for Yoshi mains to start exploring DJL’s uses. The first and most obvious use is DJLing OoS. This allows Yoshi to use any move out of shield within 6 frames(With a perfect DJL) or 9 frames(with an imperfect DJL). This is 10 and 7 frames faster than Wavedashing OoS, or 9 and 6 frames faster than just dropping shield. Punishing laggy moves on shield should be a breeze now, and Yoshi can punish hard with an OoS D-Smash or Down-B. If they’re not quite at a kill percent yet, Yoshi can start a combo OoS with an Up-tilt, f-tilt, or even a jab. This isn’t to say DJC Nair OoS shouldn’t be used anymore, but DJL provides so many more options for Yoshi.

Yoshi can also DJL OoS into a dash. This is faster than Wavedashing OoS, and might possibly be better than wavedashing OoS in a bunch of cases. This requires more looking into. Imagine DJL>Dash>Pivot grab with this.

An interesting thing to note is that Yoshi can move some distance with DJL OoS, and will travel even further with a DJL out of a dash. You can do something similar to a Pivot Smash with this, except you can use any move, and it’s easier to execute.

For ease of use, I have my jump bound to L(which has the spring taken out), so Double Jump Landing has the same timing as wavedashing for me, just on the left trigger. This also makes DJC options easier to execute for me. Of course this is personal preference, but it’s an option I think more Yoshi’s should explore.


The last change I’d like to go over is the new platform detection. Wavelanding is easier than ever, making Yoshi a slippery Dino. Yoshi’s platform movement was one of his strongest points in Melee, so I can’t wait to see it applied to PM. With this new platform detection however, I’d like to go over something I discovered a while back. While this isn’t exactly new or even optimal, I discovered that Double jumping just after passing through a platform on the way up allows for a much easier Perfect Waveland. Since Yoshi’s Double Jump has a downwards momentum at the start, It will force Yoshi down into the platform as you airdodge, allowing perfect wavelands without the timing issues. I’ve already done a bunch of fun approach options with this, allowing me fly off of platforms with ridiculous speed. If you’re going for perfection, you might want to learn to Perfect Waveland without the DJ. But for anyone else(or until you perfect it), this is an easy alternative.

If any of this info is wrong, or I'm making bad assumptions, let me know

 

[Blank Mauser]

Yoshi's parry isn't "broken" per say, it is just an unintended consequence of a brawl engine quirk that is different from melee, similar to how PMDT doesn't yet know how to make tethers hit walls instead of snapping to the ledge. In the case of parry, in melee, if you are hit with a lingering hitbox while invulnerable, you deactivate the hitbox, and will not be hit when you lose your invulnerability. In the brawl engine, however, invulnerability does not deactivate the hitbox, and if you are hit within the first 6 frames of shielding and the hitbox stays out long enough, you will take the hit on the 7th frame before going into your shield.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this make the parry actually detrimental to Yoshi? Example, Fox hits Yoshi's shield, Yoshi shields early to parry it, after 6 frames Yoshi's regular shield comes back up and now Fox has even more frame advantage than he would otherwise simply for timing the move early.

The only time it wouldn't be is if you parried a move with it that has less than 6 active frames. Essentially making it more of a dodge than a parry. Unless, like the character page says, he can still move immediately after the parry.

 

[pugwishbone17]

\
The only time it wouldn't be is if you parried a move with it that has less than 6 active frames. Essentially making it more of a dodge than a parry. Unless, like the character page says, he can still move immediately after the parry.

Actually, the way that Parry has been "working" now is that is actually only parries a single frame of the attack:

Honestly, I don't really care if yoshi doesn't parry physical attacks. What I do want though is to not get hit for properly shielding in time such as what happens in the above gif. If the PMDT can't fix the parry, then they shouldn't leave it in the game as a harmful bug, they've acknowledged that it's a problem and still haven't gotten it fixed the second time around. It's really annoying.

 

[didds]

Actually, the way that Parry has been "working" now is that is actually only parries a single frame of the attack:

Honestly, I don't really care if yoshi doesn't parry physical attacks. What I do want though is to not get hit for properly shielding in time such as what happens in the above gif. If the PMDT can't fix the parry, then they shouldn't leave it in the game as a harmful bug, they've acknowledged that it's a problem and still haven't gotten it fixed the second time around. It's really annoying.

It might not be so simple unfortunately or I'm sure they would've dealt with it

 

[TomBoComBo]

It might not be so simple unfortunately or I'm sure they would've dealt with it

guys. just recognize the frame and then buffer sidestep.

 

[didds]

guys. just recognize the frame and then buffer sidestep.

I never am ready for it, it's a personal awareness thing for me so I guess, get better will do it for me.
I am glad I didn't get reliant on egg roll though, I kinda expected it to be nerfed.

 

[pugwishbone17]

guys. just recognize the frame and then buffer sidestep.

That's stupid that I would have to do that in order to deal with a programming mistake.

 

[TomBoComBo]

That's stupid that I would have to do that in order to deal with a programming mistake.

better than taking that Ganon Fair. There's nothing we can do about it right now. Also if you can recognize it, it's still a parry and you can sidestep into anything you want. The frame parry could very easily mess up your opponent's L-cancel and give you a free punish. You guys complain about a mechanic, I give you the answer. Yes it's stupid that we have to compensate for the programming, but it is what it is. What're you gunna do? wait for 4.0?
just sidestep after the EXTENDED parry frame, I'm sure if we all have the ability to use normal parry, this should be cake.

 

[TomBoComBo]

As far as eggroll nerfs go, I agree with the extended exit frames (at least on the ground) but I disagree with the new mechanic built in that requires you to stay in eggroll for a pre-determined amount of time before you can exit. I'll admit that I had a reliance on it, but I'll do what's necessary to keep my Yoshi in top form.

Also, the mechanic that allows you to reverse eggroll when rolling off a platform or stage edge is still there and is easier thanks to the extended exit frames. I believe eggroll to reverse ledge grab will allow for interesting strings and gimp setups.
Here's how to do that: when in eggroll, hold the direction you're heading when you cancel before the ledge and then while the exit animation is happening, quickly move the stick in the opposite direction. If you move the stick before canceling, you'll turn around.

Lastly, you can still apply some pressure with eggroll, but it's more predictable because you have to roll behind them and then cancel while turning around to hit the exit. The hits will be more of a tap----tap instead of the previous tap-tap

 

[Scatz]

It's not often that you get caught in those types of situations where you'll need to spotdodge due to the programming error. Still, it's important to recognize it and avoid taking damage from the situation. No one likes it, but we have to deal until it can get fixed. No point in complaining. If you want to complain, then someplace else will welcome that (so much butthurt from 3.5 changes).

Eggroll is now a move that takes some recognizing to get the effectiveness out of some situations. There's not rip lol, just start thinking outside the box.

 

[Kudrah]

No butthurt here. I'm just drinking the salty tears of all Diddy and Sonics mains who now have to play with actual fundamentals.

 

[TomBoComBo]

It's not often that you get caught in those types of situations where you'll need to spotdodge due to the programming error. Still, it's important to recognize it and avoid taking damage from the situation. No one likes it, but we have to deal until it can get fixed. No point in complaining. If you want to complain, then someplace else will welcome that (so much butthurt from 3.5 changes).

Eggroll is now a move that takes some recognizing to get the effectiveness out of some situations. There's not rip lol, just start thinking outside the box.

I've already been outside the box, I'm glad for the nerf.
Also, Yoshi is interesting in the patch because in 3.02, his game was just having a whole lot of options and freedom to use them any way you needed. 3.5 Yoshi has most of that, but his core is now DJCs. I never thought them necessary in 3.02, unsafe even, but one of the first thoughts I had on relearning (as did @ K Kudrah ) was that DJCs are very important to 3.5 Yoshi and I personally need to brush up on those

 

[-Maddox-]

I'm just gonna be honest here, and I know most, if not all of you will disagree with me, but I think the nerfs to Yoshi hurt him pretty badly and he'll be a low-tier character in 3.5. Eggroll getting nerfed the way it did hurts yoshi's combo game, nuetral game, recovery, and movement options. The nerfs to eggroll were probably warranted because the move was definitely broken, but I think they should have at least given him something to compensate for the nerfs. He was a fairly average character in 3.02 and I don't think he'll be very good in 3.5. And I'm not saying this because I'm upset about the changes or because I want to complain, this is what I legitimately believe when looking at things objectively.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[TomBoComBo]

is yoshi's DACUS any good? i haven't had the chance to test it but i'm guessing not


understand where you're coming from but i think you'll feel differently once you've had more time to adjust. between the across the board nerfs alleviating some of yoshi's worse MUs and the tools they already have besides eggroll (which is still pretty situationally useful, like people have been saying) they're fairly solid this version imo. yoshi's combo and gimp games are wild

Indeed. Yoshi was High- mid to Mid- High tier in 3.02, but that wasn't all because of eggroll
3.5 Yoshi still has most of the tools he had before, just eggroll needs to be used more creatively because it's less safe. Yoshi now has a focus on DJCs and his Uair got a nice buff in knockback. The tools are almost all still there, I think Yoshi can stay High-mid.

oh, and Yoshi's dacus is bad, you'll go nowhere. easier to just do a running Usmash

 

[Dyl9]

Uair got a nice buff in knockback.

Are you sure that up air got buffed? I see no mention of up air in the patch notes other than a slight resizing of the hitbox.

 

[TomBoComBo]

Are you sure that up air got buffed? I see no mention of up air in the patch notes other than a slight resizing of the hitbox.

I feel like it got buffed. Feels like it hits harder

 

[pugwishbone17]

Up air only got nerfed actually

 

[Qwinn Yoshi]

Actually, the way that Parry has been "working" now is that is actually only parries a single frame of the attack:

Honestly, I don't really care if yoshi doesn't parry physical attacks. What I do want though is to not get hit for properly shielding in time such as what happens in the above gif. If the PMDT can't fix the parry, then they shouldn't leave it in the game as a harmful bug, they've acknowledged that it's a problem and still haven't gotten it fixed the second time around. It's really annoying.

If I can't jump out of shield at frame one and five, I don't consider it working.

 

[Qwinn Yoshi]

Tombo, buffer sidestep?
Still not a guaranteed punish :/

 

[TomBoComBo]

Tombo, buffer sidestep?
Still not a guaranteed punish :/

again, still better than eating a move, punish or not

 

[Mumbo]

Anyone else having trouble with Ike? I can't do much if I get grabbed or otherwise get knocked off stage. With the eggroll nerfs, recovering against Ike and his fair is nearly impossible for me.

 

[Qwinn Yoshi]

You don't have to eat a move, just jump out of shield...

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.