The counterpicking Rule..

[abcool]

Ok. Well i am like the only TO In The Bahamas I recently started gaining momentum with the smash scene here. So i went over a couple of rules and I saw that you must let your opponent know which stage you are gonna counterpick on before you guys even choose your characters. Now i wouldn't have a problem with it, if i was a top tier player, but i am not, and i think i see why most ppl complain and say this game forces you to go top tiers to actually compete which is rather crazy.

Question: Why must my opponent which just beat me in the first round know which stage that i am gonna choose next? I mean where is the sense in that, he'll just pick a character that won't be affected by the advantage i thought i would have otherwise on that stage. Example. Say i went samus and he goes fox and the first stage came down to FD. He wins and 2 stocks me, then i am like ok judging by his strategy, brinstar might work in my favor, then i announce it to be my next pick and he goes sheik. I can't even choose a different stage because now i am stuck on brinstar and forced to choose another character on a stage i know will screw me over more than him.

I know someone is gonna come with a logic based on me having to use other characters, but is that rule standard or It can be changed by the TO?

 

[Rappster]

it can be changed by a to, but i think its better this way.

let's say you main ic. you beat someone's pikachu in the first match.

if we counter pick the normal way, he'll say "rainbow cruise," and so you can pick fox and play a fox ditto on RC.

if we counterpick characters first, you'd stick with ic, he'd pick fox, and then he'd pick Rainbow Cruise.
this is like a double counter pick because:
A) Fox is bad for ICs.
B) Rainbow Cruise is bad for ICs.

 

[Fletch]

The problem with this idea is that you basically cannot play characters that get counter-pick *****. Rappster had a good example, as an ICs player, you would never be able to pick them after the first game when you could get stage gimped like that.

 

[mastermoo420]

Also, another common argument is that if they're that much better than you with a myriad of characters to take full advantage of any stage others CP with, they're going to be better than you in the end.

 

[abcool]

What i was trying to get at is that If i said brinstar(thinking my opponent will stay fox) and they go marth and i do pick another character. Then what is the point of still going to brinstar...it'll screw all of us over. I just feel that making the choice before u pick a character is gonna cost u more than help you. Or either even the playing field, but never really give u an advantage.

Yea. The example you made is really great. I would probably pick another character either way because i know he'll have the stage advantage and go to another character, if i beat him badly the previous match with pikachu. If he picks a stage that counters my character and wins. It'll then be my turn. BUT because of daves stupid rules. I can't go back to brinstar, so i'll have to choose a stage that my samus would have to go up against his fox on.,judging by the stage selection i still don't have much options.

 

[Banks]

Shifting the advatage so far toward the loser of the previous game would make the first game way more pivotal than it should be

 

[abcool]

Shifting the advatage so far toward the loser of the previous game would make the first game way more pivotal than it should be

I feel like when players come to tourneys they wanna feel like that stage they trained so hard on can be used. Smash isn't an easy game to get players into espeically melee. I guess them saying they took one round would make it feel like there moneys worth. I guess i'll go without it, until players here develop more AT skill and learn more about the game.

 

[Stev]

The point in counterpicking is to give you a slight advantage over your opponent. This is why Pound 4 removed some stages, like Mute City and Jungle Japes, because it creates drastic advantages for certain characters. You don't counterpick their character, you counterpick them. if they're fox and you're falcon, and you counterpick brinstar, but they pull out puff, then you just counterpicked yourself.

 

[abcool]

^ So this whole time this is the way competitive smash is played. The attention isn't focused around the character, but the player. It encourages you to use many characters. So sticking to one main is basically pointless. Still an iffy rule in terms of new players using there best counterpick in a certain matchup. Especially introducing new players to the game. I'll have to slightly alter that, if i even wanna see attendance here.

If i ever go off to play, then i will be opened to it, but here where gaming isn't even considered to be in peoples vocabulary. I need to do as much as possible to bring in some new faces, without straying away from the actual rule sets.
Thanks for answering my question though

 

[JPOBS]

How does this rule prevent or in any way HINDER new comer interest?

If anything, what you're proposing is that newcomers "specialize" in a single character on a single stage. This in the long run does nothing but limit their growth as a player if they can only play well on one specific stage. Newcomers should be tought to be able to adapt to different situations and challenges. If they can learn to play multiple characters and adapt, thats WAY more valuable than getting a cheap, over emphasized advantage on their counterpick by "surprising" their opponent with a gay counterpick.

 

[Rappster]

How does this rule prevent or in any way HINDER new comer interest?

If anything, what you're proposing is that newcomers "specialize" in a single character on a single stage. This in the long run does nothing but limit their growth as a player if they can only play well on one specific stage. Newcomers should be tought to be able to adapt to different situations and challenges. If they can learn to play multiple characters and adapt, thats WAY more valuable than getting a cheap, over emphasized advantage on their counterpick by "surprising" their opponent with a gay counterpick.

as a relatively new smasher and a new td, i see how it can be confusing for people who are new to smash. but, then again, for people of that skill level, their choice of stage doesn't really affect the game.

 

[Stev]

^ So this whole time this is the way competitive smash is played. The attention isn't focused around the character, but the player. It encourages you to use many characters. So sticking to one main is basically pointless. Still an iffy rule in terms of new players using there best counterpick in a certain matchup. Especially introducing new players to the game. I'll have to slightly alter that, if i even wanna see attendance here.

If i ever go off to play, then i will be opened to it, but here where gaming isn't even considered to be in peoples vocabulary. I need to do as much as possible to bring in some new faces, without straying away from the actual rule sets.
Thanks for answering my question though

Generally people limit themselves to a secondary to take care of matchups they don't like. This can be helpful, but generally a player's secondaries aren't as good as their mains. There are pros and cons to each approach. Look at Armada with Peach, Dr PP with falco, etc. They really only play one character. However, M2K plays both sheik and marth, PC Chris used to play falco, fox, and peach. If you personally find it easier to learn multiple characters, then fine. But if the rules set up the way you want it, here's waht will happen:

Player A barely beats player B in the first match. Player B counterpicks with a 90% chance of winning, and does in fact win. Player A counterpicks with a 90% chance of winning, and does in fact win.

This set was really won in the first match, which could have gone either way. What was the point in even playing the other two matches when there was only a slim chance of the player down winning? To really tell who's better, you try and play on as even playing ground as possible. However, as we know in smash, each level (even neutrals) can cater more towards certain characters. That's why we only give a SLIGHT advantage to the one counterpicking.

 

[mastermoo420]

Also, CPing could be a mindgame, too. If they can play a character well on your CP and you can't counter his counter to your counter-pick'd stage, then you got mindgame'd.

 

[TheManaLord]

CP'ing a stupid format. Blame it on smash though, the game is whack as ****.

Just FD is infinitely better. But everyone will be *****es and complain.

 

[Problem2]

I see where you're coming from. I wanted to counterpick a marth player (me playing as Link) by going to Dreamland... the guy proceeded to pick jigglypuff.

ffffffffff...!!!

Really though, this doesn't hurt new players (unless you're talking about how confusing the rule is to newcomers). What it hurts is low tier usage, but at the same time it encourages some diversity among the top tier characters.

 

[abcool]

Come on now. You out of anyone on these boards should know the pain in the *** of ppl here playing this game or any game for that matter seriously. If they think the ruleset is confusing and they can't understand it or it doesn't help there character they use..BAM!! they won't play and that means one less player. This isn't the usa or europe. I have to make these rules as simple as possible. When they reach that level of understanding, then i will use the normal rules. If not i'll have to leave it out.

Yes. Its different here when it comes to gaming in general. No one here is open to change. Its like a high school with only jocks and partying all night freaks. No one is gonna play games outside of passing time to go somewhere. Plus because of the ATs already in melee. Alot of the ones that maybe play the game think it is broken and full of glitches. Imagine me explaining that well ya know. You can't use Link anymore because the top tier player is gonna have the advantage. (First thing pops in his head is ok screw this later man) So now i am back to playing with the same 5 friends over and over and over..u get the picture. In simple terms, if someone here can't find the best way to use there character and STAND a chance, they won't play.

All n all. I rather be able to play smash with 10 new players and without that rule, then to play smash with the same 3 players over and over.

 

[abcool]

That point is nothing is never 90% to 100% in smash. Plus if most of my training was on brinstar against a ff and i won on that stage. I can never go back to it. That one win may have been my garanteed victory. Now its your counterpick and u go a stage i maybe fairly good on, but u might be great on. That increases my chances aswell as yours. You see nothing is concrete. Its just that you didn't know what would happen after the first match because u were over confident ya fox would beat my samus regardless and u think well most samus players would go FOD so i got this, but i suprised u and went brinstar.

I know for a garantee most good players would learn to play all around, but i think my way doesn't imbalance the game, it allows for ppl to main low tiers and actually have a chance to get somewhere with them. (Other than trying to win on a neutral stage against a top tier that would **** or have the advantage anyway)

 

[Stev]

it allows for ppl to main low tiers and actually have a chance to get somewhere with them. (Other than trying to win on a neutral stage against a top tier that would **** or have the advantage anyway)

From my understanding, at your skill level, tiers don't really mean much. The better player will win under these rules regardless of character match-ups for the most part. The reason we have tiers are because at high levels, certain characters become more limited with their options. If these kids are new to smash, they're not gonna be anywhere near the tech skill / mind skill where this would actually become a factor.

 

[JPOBS]

I know for a garantee most good players would learn to play all around, but i think my way doesn't imbalance the game, it allows for ppl to main low tiers and actually have a chance to get somewhere with them. (Other than trying to win on a neutral stage against a top tier that would **** or have the advantage anyway)

Your way doesnt allow people to get somewhere with low tiers.

Your way is the equivalent of spoon feeding an aspiring player every little thing he can get instead of encouraging him to become truely great and reaching his potential.

Instead of telling an aspiring low tier main:
"here are the 9 stages allowed to be played on, practice them, and some day you can overcome the weaknesses of your character and be truely great, just like Axe, Hugs, Taj etc."

your telling them this:
"Listen, you play a terrible character, but i'll throw you a bone and give you ********, unfair advantages vs other players. Dont worry about actually being good at the game, just be happy with winning ONE game per set on this ONE stage. there, atleast you can say u win a game, despite the fact that you're actually terrible at this game"

honestly, i wouldnt want to play with anyone who will settle for the latter anyway.

 

[abcool]

Oh yeah. I am sure i'll be like, if u wanna win a tourney and actually make your money seem worthwhile you have to use fox,falco,marth and shiek. Using your Link, will bring you no win what so ever. Oh you can still win with link, just keep playing the game and put your everyday life aside. I mean there is nothing better to do in this world, but stay locked up in your room and play smash for the rest of your life. There is no fun at all, its just winning smash tourneys.

@stev. We have some decent players here, but its like 5. No one else is on that level yet and quite frankly with that ruleset atleast the one you guys are using with the prior knowledge. Its not going to bring in new players. Jpobs can talk and discuss as much as you want, but we don't live in canada with a legit scene and i have been trying this long enough to know what works from what doesn't so i won't be using that rule. Not until i see more players pop up and get to a high enough level to compete against the better players here. Which already a small number.

The way i see it. All i hear are tell him do this and tell him do that. You live here aswell, why haven't i seen you take that same approach and bring new players to the table? I know why, because no one is gonna play this game the way you do and no one is gonna take al that time to invest in a game, when they can't even enjoy the satisfaction of having one victory with there character. Its one thing to talk about rules, its another thing to have ppl around to enforce them on. I think that is where this arguement doesn't help at all in my situation.

 

[JPOBS]

If you honestly think the way to keep someone interested is by catering to their weaknesses in hopes of making them feel better, then you might as well go ahead and ban l-canceling and wavedashing

afterall, no one has the time to get good at this game, so you might as well let them just feel good about themselves and win a few games playing FFA, items on high on jungle japes.

after a few of those games, im sure they'll be confident and interested enough to switch to 1v1, no items, and real stages right? ....right?

 

[pockyD]

Oh yeah. I am sure i'll be like, if u wanna win a tourney and actually make your money seem worthwhile you have to use fox,falco,marth and shiek. Using your Link, will bring you no win what so ever.

this has nothing to do with the CP system

link just blows

 

[Banks]

if you play the same three people over and over who are good, the new people don't have many competi*** fox mains to deal with anyway, they'll mostly be playing each other in lowtier fests if thats what they want

 

[Stev]

So do you wanna win or do you wanna enjoy playing the game? Cuz it sounds more like you just wanna win, in which case, what's the point in even playing if you don't enjoy playing the game.

btw, if you wanna have a tournament with the rules you want, no one's gonna tell you not to.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Abool, if you're good enough, you'll find a way. It encourages you to become better as a player. If Lord HDL and Aniki could make Link work, then obviously the player would be the factor. Armada and Peach, Darkrain, SS, Hax and their Falcons. Those are players that stick to their mains. Well known, they place money or win tournaments.

Eventually...a player will pick up a higher tier character to cover their weaknesses, or they just strive to be even better. (Or both, like Axe. ^_^)

 

[abcool]

I understand the way you guys are going about this, but trust me, you don't live here and you don't know the mindset of the players here. I am not gonna say ban L-canceling and i am not gonna say use items. I am saying if i tell someone about it and there favorite character is Mario and they go to a tourney and one of the better players uses fox and they got owned because fox is just that much better. I'll be like pick up one of the top tiers to be able to compete, they are gonna be like i tried and its to hard. I'll probably be like well i can't help. He is gonna never come back to another tourney. This isn't the states where a smash bros game or most games cost $50. Games here like brawl and most new games cost $110 or $120 a pop. Who is gonna wanna spend almost like 30-50 going to a tourney, plus venues aren't cheap. Players wanna feel comfortable and they wanna use there favorite character. Atleast if they had the counterpick advantage and took one match it would build there confidence or it would be better than getting owned and winning none. The better player will always win, but atleast i don't have to feel i wasted money that could have been used on something alot better. Yes our currency is equal to yours, well close to it. Yea i am talking $120 us for a game here.

@jpobs. Don't come with that crap, you know aswell as i do, i am the only one struggling to keep this together, while you and certain persons sit around waiting for it to happen. You're only overconfident because you have to go to college in canada where everything is already established. It just pisses me off when you got all of this to back you up, but at the end of the day. i gotta find the place to play, i gotta find and bring in new players and i gotta find a way for everything smash. I mean it is my choice, but if u got all of this knowledge?! why aren't you helping..i know why because u know as well as i do, ppl will look u in the face and walk off laughing at the thought of it.

 

[abcool]

Anyway, before this can continue. I got my answers and i would like for this thread to be closed.

 

[Stev]

I am saying if i tell someone about it and there favorite character is Mario and they go to a tourney and one of the better players uses fox and they got owned because fox is just that much better. I'll be like pick up one of the top tiers to be able to compete, they are gonna be like i tried and its to hard.

This doesn't even make sense. They're not losing because of the matchup, they're losing because the other player has much better knowledge of how to play the game, as shown by him switching to a top tier and STILL losing. It sounds like you expect noobs to come in and beat someone who's established playing the game.

 

[Banks]

top tiers will only present a problem to lower tiers if the people using them know how to use them

and you have been saying this whole time there are like 3 people who know how to play well...

tiers don't make for autowins, they have to be played at a high level for the strengths and weaknesses to be fully realized.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

make the rules how you want them to. if that will keep them playing, then as a TO, that would be good. Once you feel that they're on a level and on a feeling of interest where they can take an accept the REAL ruleset, then i would say introduce that to them.

You have to get your players first. if something as simple as a counterpick rule change can keep some players in your scene, then do that.

I would also suggest keeping the people who can handle the real ruleset, to use the real ruleset. so whatever 5 people who really play, i would suggest you guys using the normal counterpick situations, so that you can get used to it.

 

[mastermoo420]

Case in point (though seemingly unrelated):
I played a few random games of Brawl (gasp!) at my friend's house today where we were having a small melee fest with school friends. He went Marth, who he was decently comfortable with/had fair knowledge of. I went Metaknight (because metaknight is da bess) and got utterly *****.

I'm basically saying what everyone else has said: It's not that the characters suck, it's that your friends suck. Not to be offensive, but that's what it is, to be blunt.

A little more relevant:
I main Fox and I consider myself decent, and I have a friend who plays a whole crap-load of low-tiers. He's still able to beat me whether I'm Fox or another character (I usually stick with the higher tiers) because he knows what he's doing. He's played basically since the game came out and he does not even SHFFL, JC his grabs, or do any sort of AT except for an occasional wavedash to edgehog me. How does he still beat me? He knows his characters. He's played for literally years and years. He's learned the movesets. He's learned what combos and what doesn't. It's mostly in the player, not in the character (though the characters do make a slight difference).

EDIT to reply to the post above me:
You might want to be careful about making the rules as you want. Your friends might get used to those rules and not want them to change.

 

[BigD!!!]

a thread just like this came up last year or around then, and the person who had the idea forgot the same thing that youre forgetting abcool

you might be able to use a low tier to get a cool win on a counterpick if they dont know what stage theyll be playing on, but then your low tier will get completely destroyed the third match this way. no bowser main is gonna want to come to a tournament if he has to keep playing on rainbow cruise without fair warning to be allowed to switch off bowser. and imagine ness on brinstar or something, that sounds terrible

not letting people switch for different levels will definitely make people that are decent at all really frustrated

people who arent good at all wont even really know whats going on enough to recognize matchup differences or stage advantages or anything like that so you still might as well use the normal rules

dont tell them they need to pick up a top tier to do better, tell them how to play better

what happened to daisey, she lived in the bahamas and was pretty good i believe

 

[abcool]

I am suprised no one closed it. Yeah daisey still lives here, but without other TOs and so on, no one really plays. Unless i invite her over, but we dont really get along like that. Its not really saying anything here to be honest.(Smash scene) I am trying though. That guy that said use the rules that brings player was right. I said i would let them just get used to the game. Right now ppl here need confidence in this game. Nothing is cheap and ppl here will find 1001 other things to do rather than smash. So i am doing what i can to make sure the little we have don't disappear.

Yes. Someone said i wanna win and i wanna do this and that. Its not me. In fact when i was working i used my own money to pay for the venue. That is right i spent $200 out of my own pocket to hold a tourney only like 10 ppl showed up to. Some of them didn't come because they thought *well why go if we are gonna lose* The rules that i used i was saying, if they won one match or didn't get owned so badly that little spark of light would make them think "if i try harder i can make it there "and keep them coming, but 5 good players vs a complete noob and him not having his stage advantage= No more attendance. None of the bahamian smashers u see on the boards doing anything, but staying in there rooms playing the game and waiting on me to host/find a place to play. Laziness is a sin here.

 

[Kirby1]

but 5 good players vs a complete noob and him not having his stage advantage= No more attendance.

His stage advantage isn't going to matter. He's going to get crushed either way.

 

[abcool]

Anyway. So now forget all the arguement we had, i was doing what i did for more player attendance, not because i myself can't adjust to the rules.

What i figured is if there is a tier list and lower tiers would be completely dominated by a top tier. Why not use my rule. First pick is a blind pick. Second pick,(If the low tier player and its his pick, he doesn't have to delcare the stage until the players already picked there characters) i mean i know its biased, but if you are using a low tier against a top, and the game isn't perfectly balanced to begin with, it could rise the percent from something along the line os 70/30 to 60/40. If the guy that is using the low tier tries to go top, he must call the stage before he can select his character. idk try and make rules to balance out the game. Another melee isn't gonna happen(outside of project m) If you disagree. then ok

 

[JPOBS]

i just wanna kno why you make the good players play by this rule too...

 

[abcool]

I didn't. We ever used the rule. That is how we played before we even knew of smashboards. I just was saying we stay by it. No community is the same, you either have slightly different rules or a whole new ruleset. When we or i went to stupid tourneys with whacky *** rules, i couldn't make them change the ones they didn't feel comfortable with. I did what i could and made it somewhat in a way that the good players would feel comfortable and the noobs aswell. I adjusted one rule. Will it end the world...Nope. I do know if i hold a tourney and i wanna use my rulest, I am going to why..because until i see someone else get off there lazy butt and try and do the things i am doing i am gonna make up how i feel they should be made. I realised i wasted 350 out of my own pocket paying for venues and going out of my way, for like 5 good players, when if i had done stupid rules, the turnout would have been enough to put a few dollars back in my pocket. idk maybe its to lashout at laziness or maybe because i am slowly but truly caring less and less about the scene.

 

[JPOBS]

thats fine but that doesnt really answer my question.

if you want to host tournies with your own rules in the hopes of keeping new players interested thats fine, but that doesnt explain why you want to force this rule on the good players as well, who all prefer the standardized american rules, and even you yourself in this thread have realized why those rules are better overall.

obviously, for what you claim you intend to use the rule adjustment for, its all fine and good, but when the better players who already love the game play one another, i think they should use the american ruleset which has been argued by many people in this thread as being better overall.

its almost as if you are selfishly making this rule for yourself because you play low tier chars....

 

[Stev]

Why are you even paying so much attention to tiers anyways? They don't matter that much at your level of play

 

[abcool]

This is the point you aren't getting. No one here cares about melee anymore, thus it matters not to use rules that take away from the fun aspect of the game.(non competitive wise) I know you'll say fun is subjective, but when you aren't playing the game to get better, then my fun is a better example. *Good players* What are you talkin about?! Who here in nassau are good players that actually care this much about melee to wanna get better?! The only one that comes to mind is frankel. Idk if you think anyone in my crew cares at all about playing melee to that level. I used to care, but now i don't, so i only really play it for fun, bringing in players and enjoy the game for that it is, just a game. The rules the americans use restrict players from using alot of stages and thus taking away from variety and options. If you feel like you can do a better job go ahead, i dare you to try and keep everyone interested in melee if i decide to stop caring as a whole. it'll be fail just like last year. (I remember a certain someone talking aboout *Just because you leaving doesn't mean we ga stop playing, we play because we love the game and not because of you) Wow you guys really played the game! i mean i was surpised when i came back and no one even remember what wavedashing was, how wrong you and someothers could have been. right?! right?! Accept it jpobs, no one here besides you and kel gives 2 cents about this game, other than passing time. So i am not gonna use rules that pushes me to play this game more than i already do.

I hope you get it now. 1) If no one cares about going off and getting better, why use rules that we aren't used to? 2) If you feel its a problem and you doing things the right way. why aren't you trying to take on the roll i have and keep everyone interested? (3) Why haven't this thread been closed?