The Complete Mario Matchup Thread

[A2ZOMG]

Hey guys, the point is I've played this matchup irl against some legit players. I know what I'm talking about here too.

 

[zeldspazz]

Im still disagreeing, but you know it is your matchup thread so its not really my decision.

 

[MrEh]

Im kinda getting sick of your constant trolling.

That wasn't trolling, that was the truth. I suggest you look up the definition.

Trying to decide matchups over wifi is pointless. Different mindset, different game. The presence of lag can change things drastically, even when the payer adapts to Wifi lag. If Zelda wins, what does that mean? If Mario wins what does that mean?

Nothing.

Hey guys, the point is I've played this matchup irl against some legit players. I know what I'm talking about here too.

Never said that you didn't. lol

 

[Veggie123]

Yeah, I don't think it's in Zelda's favor, though I don't think Mario has a huge advantage. Zelda doesn't really have a chance of getting away unscathed if thrown in the air/off stage. Mario has a chance to break through Zelda's ground game though. She doesn't really benefit from any counterpick stages but she can fight underneath platforms very well. I'm not sure if Mario benefits from platforms either but she can abuse multihit moves like nair and usmash for shield pressure.

I think A2ZOMG covered the general flow of the matchup pretty well though with the poke strategy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fundamentally, neither is really able to land a kill move from a neutral state (and trust me, you're not going to land D-tilt on Mario if he knows spacing and shield pressure) and ultimately Zelda has to hope that U-smash shield pokes. Mario on the other hand is generally waiting for Zelda to do something punishable on his shield so he can Up-smash, or he's trying to bait Zelda into getting tricked by the massive reach of his F-smash. The point is here is that both characters need to screw up to be killed from a neutral state.

Mario however has the advantage edgeguarding, so that is why he wins. More opportunities for guaranteed damage/KO setups.

Mario also has more stage counterpick options to maximize his advantages.

Mario's best neutral happens to be battlefield. He does have a good pressure game and platform drop game, so any advantages Zelda does have there should even out.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda vs Mario is in Mario's favor, but not 70-30. It might be slightly more evenish, but I usually give the upper hand to Mario.

Fireballs are annoying for Zelda and it screws with her approach options. And like always, Zelda gets wrecked by characters with decent aerial game. (compared to her own anyway)

 

[Inferno3044]

Is 60:40 huge?

 

[:mad:]

I wouldn't really call that trolling, because he's absolutely right.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'll say 55/45 on Mario vs Zelda. Mario's favor

 

[Matador]

Im still disagreeing, but you know it is your matchup thread so its not really my decision.

Don't do that. We're trying to be accurate, not people-please.

Trying to decide matchups over wifi is pointless. Different mindset, different game. The presence of lag can change things drastically, even when the payer adapts to Wifi lag. If Zelda wins, what does that mean? If Mario wins what does that mean?

Nothing.

I whole-heartedly agree. However, we're not looking for the winners in the matchup. The best utilization for wifi is testing to see what one character can do to the other. For example, Zeldaspazz was saying that Fludd can't reach Zelda offstage. On wifi, you can see whether or not that's true just as you would offline.

Even if it's not as great as testing offline, it's better than what we have now, which is nothing more than hear-say.

I wouldn't really call that trolling, because he's absolutely right.

<---was thinking the same thing

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't do that. We're trying to be accurate, not people-please.

I whole-heartedly agree. However, we're not looking for the winners in the matchup. The best utilization for wifi is testing to see what one character can do to the other. For example, Zeldaspazz was saying that Fludd can't reach Zelda offstage. On wifi, you can see whether or not that's true just as you would offline.

Even if it's not as great as testing offline, it's better than what we have now, which is nothing more than hear-say.

<---was thinking the same thing

fludd does nothing

@ mr. eh fire balls are nothing more than an annoyance and if we consider the distances mario needs to be in order to effectively use fire balls. Dash attack can get to him. Also NL can be effective since Mario's try to use fireball as a way to make approaches.

 

[Kanzaki]

I read nothing, just wanted to point out, I've 2 stocked SoCal's best Zelda in a tourney match xD


Mario's nair > Din fire.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I read nothing, just wanted to point out, I've 2 stocked SoCal's best Zelda in a tourney match xD


Mario's nair > Din fire.

Yeah his nair can cancel din fire.

 

[Kanzaki]

It can also go through Din fire as well >.>

 

[A2ZOMG]

fludd does nothing

FLUDD can REALLY mess up Zelda's recovery, and it kills her if Mario pushes her offstage while she uses Din's Fire.

Oh yeah, and go Kanzaki!

 

[Matador]

fludd does nothing

Your opinion is now forfeit.

You've obviously never played a competent Mario before.

@ mr. eh fire balls are nothing more than an annoyance and if we consider the distances mario needs to be in order to effectively use fire balls. Dash attack can get to him. Also NL can be effective since Mario's try to use fireball as a way to make approaches.

You're going to DA a Mario that's tossing fireballs at you? Good luck with that.

And yeah, Nayru's will stop fireball approaching to an extent, but I wouldn't get predictable with it, given Nayru's punishable cooldown.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

I'll have to say it's Mario's advantage, 55-45. Zelda does have reliable defenses, and even has disjointedness in her arsenal of moves. However, once Mario gets in he's THERE, and will be until he either messes up or Zelda leaves comboing ranges. His best approaches are through the air, but on the same token he just about needs to lead with a fireball, for doing anything with a patient Zelda is a hazard to his health.

Conversely, beware Zeldas that can reliably powershield your fireballs! At that point, you need to pretty much depend on tricking her because of how she can still counter your approaches.

Platforms do really help Mario in the matchup, but depending on their height Zelda can turn them against him, especially if they're in usmash range for her. Otherwise, she can nair shieldpoke a good amount of the time and either chase on land or bait an airdodge if Mario is hit close to her. It's something that can be avoided, but it's lethal if you don't defend against right as Mario.

Mario can get to the ledge decently well against Zelda, even if she decides to get risky and try to intercept, but getting from the ledge to the stage is a concern for him. He isn't small enough to be too difficult to LK, and unless there is an extremely fast way for him to get onto the stage and not be at risk of getting hit again by Zelda, it's probably where he's at the most disadvantaged. Do all you can to try and get out of that predicament without compromising yourself, because with her it's not a matter of just soaking up a bit of damage. And don't get predictable, or you have a VERY high chance of getting KOed!

The other part of the equation mostly being ignored is the revenge KO territory. Sure, Mario isn't a slouch with some of his moves, but almost ALL of Zelda's moves can provide her a KO when used right. It's for these purposes that Mario has to really try to get the first KO, because if Zelda can get the first KO he's already lagging behind her. He's fortunate enough to have enough of a reliable damage-racking game that it won't be a huge issue commonly, but you'll feel it when it does happen.

I'd cover the rest, but it's been beaten to death. I just figured I'd bring up parts of the matchup that weren't touched on a ton. It's for these reasons I feel it's a pretty even fight, though Mario gets a slight nod from me.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Your opinion is now forfeit.

You've obviously never played a competent Mario before.

You're going to DA a Mario that's tossing fireballs at you? Good luck with that.

And yeah, Nayru's will stop fireball approaching to an extent, but I wouldn't get predictable with it, given Nayru's punishable cooldown.

Because there's a lot of comptent Zelda's for you to base my opinion off of amirite? I find it often conceited off you to take shots at the Mario's I play. The whole ZOMG punish FW is sill in my eyes considering Zelda's floatiness with proper DI you sholdn't even use FW very often. But I'm not surprised mario's consider their main mid tier thus feels the need to overate not only their character but their match ups. AZZomg is a prime example of what i'm talking about.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'll have to say it's Mario's advantage, 55-45. Zelda does have reliable defenses, and even has disjointedness in her arsenal of moves. However, once Mario gets in he's THERE, and will be until he either messes up or Zelda leaves comboing ranges. His best approaches are through the air, but on the same token he just about needs to lead with a fireball, for doing anything with a patient Zelda is a hazard to his health.

I wouldn't say it needs to be lead. It is just helpful.

Conversely, beware Zeldas that can reliably powershield your fireballs!

OMGZ! Zelda can PS our fireballs! Sorry for the sarcasm, but that defense gets so old.

Platforms do really help Mario in the matchup, but depending on their height Zelda can turn them against him, especially if they're in usmash range for her. Otherwise, she can nair shieldpoke a good amount of the time and either chase on land or bait an airdodge if Mario is hit close to her. It's something that can be avoided, but it's lethal if you don't defend against right as Mario.

Makes sense. How does this match go on FD or a place with little or no platforms?

Sure, Mario isn't a slouch with some of his moves, but almost ALL of Zelda's moves can provide her a KO when used right. It's for these purposes that Mario has to really try to get the first KO, because if Zelda can get the first KO he's already lagging behind her. He's fortunate enough to have enough of a reliable damage-racking game that it won't be a huge issue commonly, but you'll feel it when it does happen.

OK. Just about all your moves kill. You know who else is like that? Ganon, but he is balls. You gotta set up your kills.

But I'm not surprised mario's consider their main mid tier thus feels the need to overate not only their character but their match ups. AZZomg is a prime example of what i'm talking about.

Whoa! Are you seriously calling us conceited? I personally think Mario has more than just a tiny advantage, therefore I think it's 60:40. Also, I have thought some matches were worse for us than they actually are. Examples are Snake, TL, Diddy, and Olimar. I just got information and I thought "Hey. These MU's aren't that bad."

But let me ask you this one question. What is Mario lacking to be considered mid tier? (Don't say representation)

 

[Shahryar2010]

The current tier was since 4 1/2 months ago though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wouldn't say it needs to be lead. It is just helpful.



OMGZ! Zelda can PS our fireballs! Sorry for the sarcasm, but that defense gets so old.



Makes sense. How does this match go on FD or a place with little or no platforms?



OK. Just about all your moves kill. You know who else is like that? Ganon, but he is balls. You gotta set up your kills.



Whoa! Are you seriously calling us conceited? I personally think Mario has more than just a tiny advantage, therefore I think it's 60:40. Also, I have thought some matches were worse for us than they actually are. Examples are Snake, TL, Diddy, and Olimar. I just got information and I thought "Hey. These MU's aren't that bad."

But let me ask you this one question. What is Mario lacking to be considered mid tier? (Don't say representation)

Yeah I think you guys are conceited. Just out of curiosity which of marios aerials beat out Zelda's usmash?

Mario isn't mid tier because he isn't luigi. his recovery sucks average killing power at beast mediocre air game. What does he have that makes him mid tier? Yeah he doesn't have the rep either.

 

[zeldspazz]

We should probably keep this subject on the matchup at hand, I can tell this will get messy soon if someone doesnt stop it early >_>

PMs are available.

@Inferno: Zelda and Ganon are very different. Zelda has dtilt to set up every kill move, and she actually has fast killing moves.

You are defidenly going to fare better without platforms, I'd say since you guys arent on bored with Zelda advantage, Im telling you that unless you get the platform control, it will go from 55:45 Mario to even.

PS is legit :\ Which is why Falco is being less intimidating. Not insanely helpful in this matchup though.

Get Zelda off the stage or in the air and you shouldnt have too hard of time. Just dont try to match her on the ground.

Edit: I dont think any of his move beat Usmash, unless you can have nair hit below the hitbox?

 

[Inferno3044]

Yeah I think you guys are conceited. Just out of curiosity which of marios aerials beat out Zelda's usmash?

Mario isn't mid tier because he isn't luigi. his recovery sucks average killing power at beast mediocre air game. What does he have that makes him mid tier? Yeah he doesn't have the rep either.

His recovery is about equal to Marth's. It's actually very similar except that Mario's has a little more horizontal than his. It's mediocre, but it's not bad. Also don't say because he isn't Luigi. I hate when people think Luigi is an overall better character than Mario. He isn't overall better. All he really has above is really good kill power and a good recovery. Mario outranges him and is a much better edgeguarder.

Now I'm going to have my good friend Pierce explain why Mario is mid tier:

Mario is the most underrated character right now in my opinion. This character has a beast projectile, good pokes, beast jab, beast anti-air, beast fsmash for kills, solid damage racking, decent recovery when master, etc. MK, Marth, and GnW are the only MUs that this characters really suffers against. He's very flexible, and his ability to gimp can compensate for his lack of K.O.s in some MUs. A patient Mario who has mastered his many styles of fighting can definitely perform well in tourney.

That is all true except that I don't think Marth is that hard. All of those facts about Mario's abilities are 100% true.

Thank you Pierce.

@Inferno: Zelda and Ganon are very different. Zelda has dtilt to set up every kill move, and she actually has fast killing moves.

I know that. My point was that power isn't everything. Just because most of your moves can kill doesn't mean it's a plus

 

[zeldspazz]

Obviously I get what you're saying inferno, but more power is always a plus, whether you have moves to set the moves up or not. If ganon was any weaker than his currently, then he would be basically unplayable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only reason why Mario isn't mid tier is because he's poorly represented, and while he DOES have the tools, using them in high level play takes a high learning curve.

Mario has the tools to address most situations in this game. His Up-B and Up-smash are among the best out of shield options in the game. His F-smash is one of the most powerful spacing tools in the game under a good player (4th or 5th longest ranged F-smash in the entire game ftw). Mario's recovery DOES NOT suck if you're a good player who DIs well consistently since he has a lot of offstage mixups, and his edgecamp game is extremely good. Mario's juggles and Jab cancels are all good. Mario also has a number of really good frame traps due to all of his aerials (minus F-air) having extremely low ending lag.

The ONLY reason Mario isn't high tier is because of the aforementioned lack of KO power. He can score KOs quite easily however when his opponent is at a high percent. In Balanced Brawl, it's pretty obvious Mario is top tier when you give him some KO power buffs on his Smashes and B-throw. Something as simple as that makes all of Mario's other advantages much more viable.

It's blatantly obvious Mario is mid tier when you realize just how unique and useful his D-air, F-smash, and U-smash are, and how in general Mario's frame data is excellent.

Mario for the record goes even with Luigi. I have the tournament experience to prove this. In fact, Luigi doesn't automatically outclass Mario. Mario's Smashes all have more range. His aerials are faster and less laggy in most situations, so with good spacing, he has a better shield pressure game. His out of shield game is VASTLY superior. His edgestall game is also much more effective. In fact, Mario's Hyphen Smash is potentially better than Luigi's. Timed correctly, he slides approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of FD, and he slides MUCH faster than Luigi does.

Mario also goes neutral with Diddy, Wolf, Pikachu, Falco, and Sheik. The Ice Climbers are also a winnable matchup for him. Mario is in fact the most underrated character in this game (besides Sheik), and should eventually be banned from low tiers.

As for any arguments about Zelda DIing so that she doesn't have to use FW to recover, keep in mind she cannot defend herself in midair with any attacks, and she has ZERO ways of mixing up her momentum BESIDES using FW. This is much worse than Mario's recovery, which has quite a few mixups in the air with proper use of Cape Stalling alone, and much better aerial mobility in general.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

My point was that power isn't everything. Just because most of your moves can kill doesn't mean it's a plus

Actually, it does mean it's a plus. Don't get me wrong though, I completely understand what you're saying and agree. Killing power certainly is an advantage Zelda has but it still is only one part of the MU alongside with many other things like damage racking and edgeguarding. Just because Zelda has stronger killing moves doesn't mean she would have an advantage, but it still needs to be taken into account, especially since it's one of her biggest advantages in this match alongside her anti-air capatilies and better range.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

OMGZ! Zelda can PS our fireballs! Sorry for the sarcasm, but that defense gets so old.

Forgive me for trying to give you a word of warning. What did I do to deserve such high sarcasm when I'm only trying to help the discussion?

Makes sense. How does this match go on FD or a place with little or no platforms?

It's a bit of a mixed-bag. On one hand, Mario loses something that can extend juggles and such, but on the other, with them he has an easier time approaching Zelda because he will have more options to use. It really comes down to if you're more comfortable with or without them, really, and are ready to defend against what Zelda can do.

OK. Just about all your moves kill. You know who else is like that? Ganon, but he is balls. You gotta set up your kills.

Comparing Zelda and Ganon is not a good thing to do, because Zelda does have things that link together, and has more range. And more speed in a majority of her attacks. And more noticeable disjointed stuff.

Really, inferno, I want to help with this matchup, and I want to learn more about it. However, how you talked to me when I cautioned MARIO players about Zelda's powershielding making things a bit more difficult for him to get in really doesn't make me want to continue contributing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The only way Zelda is linking moves is through D-tilt, which is not a viable move against a Mario who knows the matchup.

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

Or a fastfallen nair. Sometimes an escaped fsmash puts Mario in a bad spot, too. Low percents, ftilt to usmash works. Crossover nair to dtilt sometimes works, too, especially if Mario's shield is depleted. Sometimes the weak hits of fair/bair can trip.

Also, don't say dtilt isn't a viable move. For the instance of platforms, it can be if Zelda pushes Mario off the platform and he doesn't recover before hitting the main stage, or he stays on a ledge too long. Another example would be powershielding an aerial from Mario while on a platform and then dtilting to whatever if she didn't spike, and if it did there's predicting his rolling from there. There's still situations dtilt is viable in... which means there's commonly more than what Ganondorf would have. ^_^;

 

[A2ZOMG]

What I mean by viable is can it be used safely against an opponent who knows the options available in each situation?

The platform situation can be reacted to and avoided easily since you can do moves out of it pretty immediately. Hitting people who stay on the ledge too long is not a viable strategy under any circumstances. You're not D-tilting Mario out of his D-air ever.

And the reason why I specifically mentioned D-tilt is because it's the only reliable setup into a KO move.

 

[MrEh]

FLUDD can REALLY mess up Zelda's recovery

This.

Dash attack can get to him.

Dash attack is also rediculously punishable. And will not go through fireballs.

Also NL can be effective since Mario's try to use fireball as a way to make approaches.

Naryu's Love is even more punishable. And the hitstun from a reflected fireball will not change this.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The only reason why Mario isn't mid tier is because he's poorly represented, and while he DOES have the tools, using them in high level play takes a high learning curve.

Mario has the tools to address most situations in this game. His Up-B and Up-smash are among the best out of shield options in the game. His F-smash is one of the most powerful spacing tools in the game under a good player (4th or 5th longest ranged F-smash in the entire game ftw). Mario's recovery DOES NOT suck if you're a good player who DIs well consistently since he has a lot of offstage mixups, and his edgecamp game is extremely good. Mario's juggles and Jab cancels are all good. Mario also has a number of really good frame traps due to all of his aerials (minus F-air) having extremely low ending lag.

The ONLY reason Mario isn't high tier is because of the aforementioned lack of KO power. He can score KOs quite easily however when his opponent is at a high percent. In Balanced Brawl, it's pretty obvious Mario is top tier when you give him some KO power buffs on his Smashes and B-throw. Something as simple as that makes all of Mario's other advantages much more viable.

It's blatantly obvious Mario is mid tier when you realize just how unique and useful his D-air, F-smash, and U-smash are, and how in general Mario's frame data is excellent.

Mario for the record goes even with Luigi. I have the tournament experience to prove this. In fact, Luigi doesn't automatically outclass Mario. Mario's Smashes all have more range. His aerials are faster and less laggy in most situations, so with good spacing, he has a better shield pressure game. His out of shield game is VASTLY superior. His edgestall game is also much more effective. In fact, Mario's Hyphen Smash is potentially better than Luigi's. Timed correctly, he slides approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of FD, and he slides MUCH faster than Luigi does.

Mario also goes neutral with Diddy, Wolf, Pikachu, Falco, and Sheik. The Ice Climbers are also a winnable matchup for him. Mario is in fact the most underrated character in this game (besides Sheik), and should eventually be banned from low tiers.

As for any arguments about Zelda DIing so that she doesn't have to use FW to recover, keep in mind she cannot defend herself in midair with any attacks, and she has ZERO ways of mixing up her momentum BESIDES using FW. This is much worse than Mario's recovery, which has quite a few mixups in the air with proper use of Cape Stalling alone, and much better aerial mobility in general.

The gave Mario a power boost in brawl it's called luigi. Thanks for playing. Mario's recovery is bad, I love how the Mario player can know all the options but the Zellda is some ****ing idiot that gets pushed off the edge while using Dins with the water ****. You mario's main logic is superb.

@mr eh yes DA is punishable but if the mario player is sitting there SH fireballing then it will get to him. but whatever .

 

[MrEh]

@mr eh yes DA is punishable but if the mario player is sitting there SH fireballing then it will get to him. but whatever .

How will Zelda's Dash Attack go through fireballs?

Zelda's Dash Attack doesn't even clank with Fireballs. She just loses out to it, since her attacks have transcendent priority. Dash Attacking OoS is too slow as well, and is unlikely to reach Mario unless he shoots a fireball at point blank range.

 

[zeldspazz]

Mr. Eh, just out curiosity, what is your take on this matchup?

 

[MrEh]

Mr. Eh, just out curiosity, what is your take on this matchup?

55-45 to 60-40 Mario's favor.

 

[zeldspazz]

I was hoping for an overview but alright then.

 

[Inferno3044]

Forgive me for trying to give you a word of warning. What did I do to deserve such high sarcasm when I'm only trying to help the discussion?




It's a bit of a mixed-bag. On one hand, Mario loses something that can extend juggles and such, but on the other, with them he has an easier time approaching Zelda because he will have more options to use. It really comes down to if you're more comfortable with or without them, really, and are ready to defend against what Zelda can do.



Comparing Zelda and Ganon is not a good thing to do, because Zelda does have things that link together, and has more range. And more speed in a majority of her attacks. And more noticeable disjointed stuff.

Really, inferno, I want to help with this matchup, and I want to learn more about it. However, how you talked to me when I cautioned MARIO players about Zelda's powershielding making things a bit more difficult for him to get in really doesn't make me want to continue contributing.

It's nothing personal. It was just that every opponent says "We can PS it" and make it sound like fireballs are useless. I know you probably didn't mean it like that and also I was in a grouchy mood earlier. It's like when people say Mario has bad range and therefore loses the MU. I'm sorry and I didn't mean to offend you.

The only comparison I made between Zelda and Ganon is that they have multiple killing moves. Also using Ganon, I knew you guys would say "we are not like Ganon and this is why..." and I used it to force you guys to bring a point (mind games son!).

I'm sorry if I sounded like a *****.

55-45 to 60-40 Mario's favor.

I like.

 

[zeldspazz]

So Im guessing its going 55-45 Mario?

Sounds fairly reasonable.

And no mindgames in MU discussions lol.

 

[hippiedude92]

Just so you know AL is just a troll (lol <3) and his experience at best l'm just assuming is Veggi/Myself through Wi-Fi and just mostly trolls in these kinds of matchups.

just sayin

i stil lluv u tho

 

[zeldspazz]

I know AL well enough.
He doesnt usually troll where I see :|