The "Coaching" Debate.

[mers]

If there was such a thing as a ****** Fallacy, this would probably be it.

Maybe this isn't the right time or place to say this, but I think that we should probably avoid comparing trolls to ******** people. I could go on about why its insulting to people with mental illnesses, but I think everyone knows all that already.

That said, PoundSlap is so obviously a troll I'm astounded people are still replying to him.

 

[Nihonjin]

Maybe this isn't the right time or place to say this, but I think that we should probably avoid comparing trolls to ******** people. I could go on about why its insulting to people with mental illnesses, but I think everyone knows all that already.

******** (PoundSlap) =/= ******** (Mental Illness)

Gay (Lame) =/= Gay (Merry) =/= Gay (Sexuality)

**** (Emphasis) =/= **** (Intercourse)

**** (4 Stock) =/= **** (Horrible crime)

Context matters my friend.

 

[X1-12]

******** (PoundSlap) =/= ******** (Mental Illness)

Gay (Lame) =/= Gay (Merry) =/= Gay (Sexuality)

**** (Emphasis) =/= **** (Intercourse)

**** (4 Stock) =/= **** (Horrible crime)

Context matters my friend.

I love this post =]


still supporting you guys in spirit

 

[Jessup124]

Maybe this isn't the right time or place to say this, but I think that we should probably avoid comparing trolls to ******** people. I could go on about why its insulting to people with mental illnesses, but I think everyone knows all that already.

Nowhere in Nihonjin's quoted statement was there a comparison to ******** people.

 

[PoundSlap]

but the problem from what i see is that if you say you didnt get coached must not necessarily mean that you really didnt get coached. so even if amsah claims that he didnt get coached there is no proof that this is correct. we have a valid evidence as well in the video i posted so there might be also a chance that amsah got coached in other matches too. this is also why i think he was able to beat armada. i think the only set he didnt get coached was the one against lucky because the actual commentary was missing there. what i conclude also from his is when amsah doesnt got coached he loses (referring to lucky set) so coaching might be even more of a deal than we may think. and its also unfair to the others who play normally, amsah.

to the discussion about *******: the actual comparison to people with special needs is not correct. amsahs argument about what we call gay nowadays is also wrong because when something is accepted by the society does not mean it makes an insult less offending to the actual group of people. amsah thats ignorant.

 

[Luma]

welcome to the internet...

now take your computer and toss it out of your window, thx

ah yeah btw, are you going to execpt my MM or are you just gonna continue trolling the boards?

 

[PoundSlap]

we can do a money match. however i suck against sheik. lets agree on a fox/falco ditto?


btw quoted for the new page:

but the problem from what i see is that if you say you didnt get coached must not necessarily mean that you really didnt get coached. so even if amsah claims that he didnt get coached there is no proof that this is correct. we have a valid evidence as well in the video i posted so there might be also a chance that amsah got coached in other matches too. this is also why i think he was able to beat armada. i think the only set he didnt get coached was the one against lucky because the actual commentary was missing there. what i conclude also from his is when amsah doesnt got coached he loses (referring to lucky set) so coaching might be even more of a deal than we may think. and its also unfair to the others who play normally, amsah.

to the discussion about *******: the actual comparison to people with special needs is not correct. amsahs argument about what we call gay nowadays is also wrong because when something is accepted by the society does not mean it makes an insult less offending to the actual group of people. amsah thats ignorant.

 

[Teczer0]

Wow, was I gone for that long?

I'll keep a much closer eye on this thread.

If I see it getting derailed much more its gonna get closed.

 

[Nihonjin]

^Tell PoundSlap to Gtfo then.

 

[The Star King]

PoundSlap is rising to troll fame almost as fast as Distraction.

 

[hungrybox]

he's no virus blue mage


yet

and he probably is distraction

 

[Teczer0]

Continue with the topic at hand.

If its caused by one person I won't close the topic so if you're all worried I'll do that don't worry.

If you have concerns, PM me/victra/Jungle them instead.

EDIT: Also, please use the report button feature if you see a problem. If you reply to the problem post whatever it is depending on what you say we can and may infract you for replying to it.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Continue with the topic at hand.

If its caused by one person I won't close the topic so if you're all worried I'll do that don't worry.

If you have concerns, PM me/victra/Jungle them instead.

EDIT: Also, please use the report button feature if you see a problem. If you reply to the problem post whatever it is depending on what you say we can and may infract you for replying to it.

You're so...uptight...

 

[Strong Badam]

******** (PoundSlap) =/= ******** (Mental Illness)

Gay (Lame) =/= Gay (Merry) =/= Gay (Sexuality)

**** (Emphasis) =/= **** (Intercourse)

**** (4 Stock) =/= **** (Horrible crime)

Context matters my friend.

Not going to lie, this is the best post I've seen other than my own in years. Effectively owned PoundSlap's attempt at changing the direction of discussion away from his horribly bad argument on coaching.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I have now become very anti-coaching. At RoM3, I was playing against a random in pools, and random pro that I won't name comes over and starts telling him exactly what I'm doing and how to punish it. Now as you could imagine this got me a little pissed the **** off. But there's not much I can do about it mid game now is there?

My vote is for no coaching during games, just by this one instance.

 

[Strong Badam]

clearly it's an isolated incident so it's not applicable because I'm an idiot
even though it clearly applies to the game's competitive community as you got ****ed over by it and others are subject to the same possibility.

 

[Nihonjin]

I have now become very anti-coaching. At RoM3, I was playing against a random in pools, and random pro that I won't name comes over and starts telling him exactly what I'm doing and how to punish it. Now as you could imagine this got me a little pissed the **** off. But there's not much I can do about it mid game now is there?

My vote is for no coaching during games, just by this one instance.

Pff, but if you still won then what does it matter? And if you lost, then you should be happy your opponent (read: the whole community) got better off of it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Nowhere in Nihonjin's quoted statement was there a comparison to ******** people.

******** (PoundSlap) =/= ******** (Mental Illness)

Gay (Lame) =/= Gay (Merry) =/= Gay (Sexuality)

**** (Emphasis) =/= **** (Intercourse)

**** (4 Stock) =/= **** (Horrible crime)

Context matters my friend.

context matters when it comes to meaning.

but that doesn't make it ok.

we know you didn't mean anything towards ******** people, but truth be told it is offensive depending on who reads it..despite the context you mean it in.

its just being politically correct and honoring a certain level of respect. the comparison is still there. ******** = dumb not as smart or messed up. which are often characteristics of actual ******** people. gay= different or not normal with a negative connotation. such as alot of people consider homosexuality to be wrong. I typically don't mind but when im around people who I think may take offense to it I refrain from using words like ******** or gay to identify things im displeased or don't agree with.

I just try not to step on ppl's toes, unless they throw sand on my castle lol.

 

[mers]

context matters when it comes to meaning.

but that doesn't make it ok.

we know you didn't mean anything towards ******** people, but truth be told it is offensive depending on who reads it..despite the context you mean it in.

its just being politically correct and a certain level of respect. the comparison is still there. ******** = dumb not as smart or messed up. which are often characteristics of actual ******** people. gay= different or not normal with a negative connotation. such as alot of people consider homosexuality to be wrong. I typically don't mind but when im around people who I think may take offense to it I refrain from using words like ******** or gay to identify things im displeased or don't agree with.

I just try not to step on ppl's toes, unless they throw sand on my castle lol.

Exactly. I didn't want to continue the argument, especially because we were just told to keep the thread focused. I guess I'll make this my last post on the subject, and if anyone is interested in talking about this they can PM me or something.

Obviously Amsah didn't mean to insult anybody besides PoundSlap. However, when you use "********" as an insult, it's demeaning to those who that word describes. You can argue that it's a different context, but as KAOSTAR said, when you intentionally mean the "dumb" or "stupid" connotations of the word to be insulting you risk offending people.

Same goes for "****" and "gay."


I'm not trying to ***** anyone out or anything, because it's obviously a common practice and relatively not a big deal. Just trying to point out that it's something to take into consideration.

 

[Jim Morrison]

If you get offended by someone saying ****** or gay in that context, you should probably reconsider all things you have ever known.

EDIT: In Dutch we use kanker (cancer) in the same way. My mother had cancer when I was 7 and I was so offended everytime people used it to curse.

Then I turned 11 and realized I was being stupid and should deal with it.

 

[Wobbles]

Except the origin of using "gay" as an insult came right along with calling people "***" and "**********." People are also likely to say things like, "well at least I don't like men!" as an insult, which puts gay way too close to its meaning regarding sexual orientation. Plus, the fact that "gay" doesn't have its own specific meaning other than being very generalized to indicate that you don't like something makes it even harder to separate. Compare *** as an epithet for homosexuals to *** meaning cigarette; nobody has a problem with calling cigarettes ***s because there's no way to draw any emotional correlations. I guess it's too much to ask that people expand their vocabulary though.

*

On subject: Poundslap, remember that in our glorious democratic republic of America, people are innocent until proven guilty. Taking it for granted that Amsah was coached by people he didn't know, and that even if he says he wasn't we should assume he was because he might have been, is a ****ing terrible argument, and also defies centuries of American jurisprudence which I'm sure you wouldn't want to do.

...I don't know if that was on topic at all, actually.

 

[Rostigalen]

Wobbles, neither PoundSlap or Amsah comes from America. =p Just saying.

This thread should just be closed, nothing constructive is coming out of it, and we've heard all arguments already IMO. The only thing happening is PoundSlap posting every now and then, infuriating loads of people who then make a rant on how he is wrong in every way possible, PoundSlap defending himself, people get even angrier...

(coaching is bad btw, for reasons Amsah and others have covered already)

 

[KAOSTAR]

If you get offended by someone saying ****** or gay in that context, you should probably reconsider all things you have ever known.

EDIT: In Dutch we use kanker (cancer) in the same way. My mother had cancer when I was 7 and I was so offended everytime people used it to curse.

Then I turned 11 and realized I was being stupid and should deal with it.

haha wobbles god lookin out.


raptor dude, just because people say it doesn't mean its correct or even ok.

its very reasonable for somebody to get offended by the incorrectly identification of things as gay or ********.

its really just something to keep in mind. for the most part its people who collect ignorance and lack empathy who tend to offend people without meaning to.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So about that coaching business...

 

[hungrybox]

I think coaching should be legal, seeing as there is practically no way to enforce it's prohibition in a competitive environment.

However, in terms of banning and deciding on stages, that might be a tad unfair. That should be just the player's own knowledge of the matchup.

That being said, **** Rainbow Cruise

 

[-ACE-]

I think coaching should be legal, seeing as there is practically no way to enforce it's prohibition in a competitive environment.

How hard is it to tell someone not to whisper advice in someone's ear mid-match?

And yeah, **** RC AND brinstar, ya jiggs player.

 

[Wobbles]

Or to enforce a minimum distance between crowd and players? Happens plenty in other fighting games.

Spoiler

Smash isn't like other fighting games though!!!1one

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think coaching is pretty easy to enforce.

crowd control is hard.

 

[CloneHat]

I think coaching should be legal, seeing as there is practically no way to enforce it's prohibition in a competitive environment.

However, in terms of banning and deciding on stages, that might be a tad unfair. That should be just the player's own knowledge of the matchup.

That being said, **** Rainbow Cruise

You're contradicting yourself. How the person plays affects the match much more than stage advice.

 

[mers]

hbox does have a point. We can't just pretend that our tourney environments are perfect, and we can ban coaching easily and it will just go away. Some amount of coaching is inevitable simply because it's too difficult to prevent.

That said (and I used to feel otherwise but this thread has more than convinced me), I don't think that enforcement difficulty is a good reason to not ban something. If a ban will do any good, then its worth putting in place. As with all rules, the level of enforcement is up to the TO, but even if the TO doesn't stop coaching when he sees it occurring, a ban will probably reduce coaching. Add that to some enforcement, and the problem will certainly be lessened.

One counterargument is "but some people will do it, so shouldn't we legalize it to make it a more level playing field?" However, I think that boils down to "cheaters exist, might as well make cheating legal!" We can all see why that doesn't make sense.

 

[King Funk]

What if the opponent of the player who gets coached could ask politely for him not to get coached? I think that could be an easy rule to enforce.

I heard that Kage asked HugS not to coach Lucky at I don't remember which tournament.

Sorry if anyone thought that up before in the thread, I didn't read all the posts.

 

[Bamesy]

Asking solves all problems...
We're a nice community, we'll respect our opponents wishes.
Unless they say forfeit, then just **** them lol

The word 'offense' comes from the latin word meaning the bait inside a contraption such as a bear trap.

To be offended is to take the 'offense'

If you're ever offended by ANYTHING, then you're ****ing stupid and as someone said earlier "you need to re evaluate everything you know"

NOTHING offends you, you GET offended.

Noobs.

 

[-ACE-]

Bamesy, unfortunately that philosophy doesn't apply in all settings.

**** coaching.

 

[Banks]

"coaching" i've seen is usually offered midmatch without any prompting from the people playing. i have never heard someone say "WHAT SHOULD I DO DIFFERENTLY" to their friends during a match unless it's a joke because they are getting @ss *****. and i don't think any piece of coaching would really change the outcome, because you hear what their advice is yourself and it's usually general information like "use back air to kill them instead of forward air, falco".

if you are playing a jigglypuff with fox third game who doesn't know you can uthrow rest and someone tells them the secret, or if you have a sensei whispering in your ear the whole match, that is another story. but does anyone actually do that, and has it ever happened during an important match?

 

[KirbyKaze]

legalize coaching so i can coach banks

 

[KAOSTAR]

Asking solves all problems...
We're a nice community, we'll respect our opponents wishes.
Unless they say forfeit, then just **** them lol

The word 'offense' comes from the latin word meaning the bait inside a contraption such as a bear trap.

To be offended is to take the 'offense'

If you're ever offended by ANYTHING, then you're ****ing stupid and as someone said earlier "you need to re evaluate everything you know"

NOTHING offends you, you GET offended.

Noobs.

if things can be offensive then I see no reason why they can't offend something. idk seems kinda fishy to me.

 

[Pi]

lol@ the same arguments being repeated as when i left this thread

 

[Banks]

legalize coaching so i can coach banks

yes, i agree

i give myself tips such as

"do not do that, that doesn't work"

and "di correctly, you idiot"

and "do not miss this edgeguard"

which may be similar to what you'd have in mind

 

[mers]

"coaching" i've seen is usually offered midmatch without any prompting from the people playing. i have never heard someone say "WHAT SHOULD I DO DIFFERENTLY" to their friends during a match unless it's a joke because they are getting @ss *****. and i don't think any piece of coaching would really change the outcome, because you hear what their advice is yourself and it's usually general information like "use back air to kill them instead of forward air, falco".

if you are playing a jigglypuff with fox third game who doesn't know you can uthrow rest and someone tells them the secret, or if you have a sensei whispering in your ear the whole match, that is another story. but does anyone actually do that, and has it ever happened during an important match?

It's more stuff like "he keeps teching in place" or "every time he pressures you, you do the same thing" that is the problem.

People have used the example of HugS's coaching before, and I'm sure he'd be saying more useful stuff than reminding you of your kill moves and such.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yes, i agree

i give myself tips such as

"do not do that, that doesn't work"

and "di correctly, you idiot"

and "do not miss this edgeguard"

which may be similar to what you'd have in mind

i'd be like

"he's gonna tech in place, u-smash him"

"excellent now shffl dair on him"

"he di away so dash attack"

"didn't di dash attack so now shffl dair again"

"u-tilt him"

"fair him"

"ledgehop bair like 8 times"

"drop off edge reverse needle store double jump fair"

"excellent"