The "Coaching" Debate.

[Banks]

yes this would definitely have won me all my sets at RoM until I placed 4th losing to you, unless you coached me vs yourself

that would create a beautiful choreographed dance of confusion

 

[KirbyKaze]

It would be so beautiful, watching it in one sitting would incur the same responses experienced by heterosexual smashers when they look directly into Zgetto's gorgeous eyes

 

[Banks]

sometimes referred to as an eyegasm

 

[Lordydennek]

I like the idea of coaching between matches. i dont see why not.

 

[Laijin]

ZGetto is actually Mike G in disguise.

You heard it from me first.

 

[Bing]

Yeah I dont see anything wrong with coaching, its not like advice is going to turn the tables 180 degrees, it may/will help the person being coached, but the controller is still in there hands...

 

[Nihonjin]

^I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or genuinely naive..

 

[KirbyKaze]

sometimes referred to as an eyegasm

And it would end with a ledgehop Dair --> Dair --> Dair --> Uair KO off the top on Battlefield by me on you.

Because you still wouldn't DI my Dairs.

<3 Banks so much it HURTS

 

[Banks]

<3KK, because of you i have been reading the SSBM instruction booklet and the PRIMA OFFICIAL strategy guide, neither of which explain DI at all but I've gathered the clues

I demand you wear a striped referee shirt and equip yourself with a fine quality whistle for the next event

 

[hungrybox]

Yeah I dont see anything wrong with coaching, its not like advice is going to turn the tables 180 degrees, it may/will help the person being coached, but the controller is still in there hands...

THEIR

You ****ing idiot.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hungrybox is a high level Grammar Elemental

 

[CloneHat]

THEIR

You ****ing idiot.

If we don't enforce, then their's no hope for the English language.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

THEIR

You ****ing idiot.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11719199#post11732518

don't be such a ****, not everyone cares to properly type on smashboards

 

[Jam Stunna]

THEIR

You ****ing idiot.

Best post in the thread

 

[hungrybox]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11719199#post11732518

don't be such a ****, not everyone cares to properly type on smashboards

well played, sir

but still

that's the one mistake I just cannot tolerate

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Yeah same here, especially because it's so blatantly obvious how 'there, their and they're' work, i can't even write it the wrong way out of lazyness.

 

[Quic]

If we don't enforce, then their's no hope for the English language.

I see what you did there.

 

[CableCho57]

so my friend who plays samus got like 2 stocked first match in a bo3 vs a sheik
so i start giving hm advice midway through game 2
he wins games 2 and then game 3

and the sheik player was hella salty after hahahaha

I think coaching should be allowed

 

[CloneHat]

I think coaching vs Sheik should be allowed

Fixed .

 

[KirbyKaze]

I demand you wear a striped referee shirt and equip yourself with a fine quality whistle for the next event

It shall be done

 

[EEF]

let's look at the big picture here...
This is what I’m getting from this

Positions for coaching:

Banning coaching could potentially offset a player’s ability to improve(arguing betterment of melee)
-The best time to learn a lesson is during a significant match (from the player’s eyes), banning coaching could upset the ability to pick up on lessons during matches, which stops players from improving quickly, which offsets metagame development.

Banning coaching cannot be plausibly done(arguing legitimacy)
-limiting what a crowd can say is not something that can be done without listing specific things that cannot be said…limiting comment said by a crowd- or by a coach is too difficult to enforce, and is thus illegitimate

positions against coaching:

Coaches are not represented by a person’s name/gamer tag(arguing rules/legitimacy)
-A tournament is usually 1v1 or 2v2, and someone’s name/gamer tag represents that player only; this is a clear violation of the rules.
---
from what ive read, i believe this is the sum of the arguments- all of these positions have subpoints to them, but i went ahead and summarized them...If this is the case, then I’m gonna have to go with allow coaching, just because there doesn’t seem to be a way to legitimately ban coaching, and there is possible detriments if banning it does occur

sorry for being so formal about it

 

[MT_]

@EEF, you kinda missed the biggest and main point on the anti-coaching side, which is that coaching is unfair. What you said was the anti-coaching argument was just one of many, MANY reasons why coaching is unfair, lol.

 

[EEF]

@MT

I clearly stated in my against coaching statement that it is a clear violation of the rules, which is synonymous to “unfair”… I also clearly stated that every position I labeled had subpoints to it, thanks for reading the entire post

 

[MT_]

Um, "clear violation of the rules" isn't in any way synonymous to "unfair"...

EDIT: not to mention, there has not been (to my recollection) any melee tournament that has explicitly banned coaching, so it's not even a "clear violation of the rules" to begin with.

 

[Nogzor'z]

rules are set for what reason? i assume so a match will be fair...i think that justifies why it's synonymous

i also explained why its a clear violation of the rules in my first post... but i think we should stick to the topic matter, if that's ok with you

i really think the entire debate circles around the idea of whether or not a violation of the rules and an outside voice having a major part in the success of the competitor outweighs the fact that banning coaching is difficult to do and that banning coaching can delay betterment of any given player

fact is, both sides need people to solve the problems facing their idea

 

[EEF]

whoops, apparently signing in to internet explorer doesnt sign me in to safari,----the above post is mine, not nogzor'z's----....sorry about that lol

 

[EEF]

EDIT: accidental double post, dont think i can remove a post

 

[MT_]

@EEF, if coaching were legal, would it suddenly become fair? (which is kinda what this entire thread is about)

 

[Seikend]

rules are set for what reason? i assume so a match will be fair...i think that justifies why it's synonymous

i also explained why its a clear violation of the rules in my first post... but i think we should stick to the topic matter, if that's ok with you

i really think the entire debate circles around the idea of whether or not a violation of the rules and an outside voice having a major part in the success of the competitor outweighs the fact that banning coaching is difficult to do and that banning coaching can delay betterment of any given player

fact is, both sides need people to solve the problems facing their idea

The difficulty of controlling a ban has been discussed.

A) Just because it's difficult to control, doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to. Crimes occur all the time in the real world, but laws are still in place. Any improvement is better than none.

B)It's been suggested that the players are separated from the crowd, whether that's by a stage or setting a distance at which spectators need to stand at.

And the answer to the betterment of a player is that tournaments are not a place to learn, it's a proving grounds.

 

[MT_]

Regarding the "betterment of a player" argument, I think the following makes the most sense:

In locals, where you play against the people you play against all the time, then yea have coaching. Your local tournaments are usually used as training grounds as much they are proving grounds. Because of this, you'll find that lower level players that only go to local tournaments are pro-coaching because they are still mainly focusing on improving.

However, in your bigger tournaments at regionals, nationals, and et cetera, you go make the trip almost exclusively to prove yourself and see how much you've improved from your time spent at the locals. Of course you seek to improve here, but I think people are more prone to want to find out how good they have become from their training at a LARGER tournament, where you are playing all sorts of different people you've never played before, than they are interested in just improving.


While it wasn't explicitly stated, I'm pretty sure this thread is discussing the regional/national level tournaments when talking about coaching. No one cares what kind of rules you have in the locals you attend every month or even more; they are less of a "proving grounds" atmosphere than they are "training grounds", and the opposite is true for bigger scale tournaments when you're there to prove to everyone and yourself how good you are.

 

[EEF]

@Seikend

i understand that you should attempt to stop anything thats wrong, but attempting to stop it has its downsides... as i've seen from many people in the thread, people may not tolerate inconvenient rules making going to tournaments less of a fun experience

also,the argument that tournaments are a place to learn kinda goes with the inconvenience and less enjoyable game thing, for example, personally, a tournament is the only place i can go to get any better, mostly because i live in a wasteland where i play with only two other melee players in order to improve. For me, making jumps regarding how good i am at adapting to new players can only be developed at a tournament... Do we really need the game of melee to become that much more esoteric, the community is small enough as it is.

i agree that it is clearly unfair, and i kind of agree with you, but i felt i needed to bring up those arguments

EDIT: as for the national/regional/local thing, the fact that nobody cares about the rules at a local tournament is more of a reason to allow people to view a bigger tournament as a practice round. Practicing proper gameplay would have no impact at a local tournament according to that logic.

And there is no answer on the banning side to the fact that lack of coaching makes it harder for new players to be introduced, which very well could lead to a more esoteric game of melee... and isnt that in all of our best interests?

 

[Seikend]

@Seikend

i understand that you should attempt to stop anything thats wrong, but attempting to stop it has its downsides... as i've seen from many people in the thread, people may not tolerate inconvenient rules making going to tournaments less of a fun experience

also,the argument that tournaments are a place to learn kinda goes with the inconvenience and less enjoyable game thing, for example, personally, a tournament is the only place i can go to get any better, mostly because i live in a wasteland where i play with only two other melee players in order to improve. For me, making jumps regarding how good i am at adapting to new players can only be developed at a tournament... Do we really need the game of melee to become that much more esoteric, the community is small enough as it is.

i agree that it is clearly unfair, and i kind of agree with you, but i felt i needed to bring up those arguments

Regarding the latter: Don't most tournaments have some time for friendlies? That's when you learn at a tournament. Not during the actual tournament itself.

But I think the argument hinges on whether your interest is competitiveness (anti-coaching) or hype and the sense of community (coaching), and what the best approach for the community is.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[EEF]

But I think the argument hinges on whether your interest is competitiveness (anti-coaching) or hype and the sense of community (coaching), and what the best approach for the community is.

That's how I see it anyway.

I agree with that, and i do side with you that in a major tournament, the goal is to provide a winner, or a consensus as to who is the best out of who attended, so coaching there is a clear detriment to the goal, which outweighs all else

I just don't think separating the crowd will do anything to stop this, nor will anything else, after all..someone can just yell out advice; for example, "STOP JUMPING AFTER THAT!"

 

[Nihonjin]

fact is, both sides need people to solve the problems facing their idea

I don't blame you for not reading through 40 pages (though you should at least skip through it), but we already did. Multiple times.

And there is no answer on the banning side to the fact that lack of coaching makes it harder for new players to be introduced, which very well could lead to a more esoteric game of melee... and isnt that in all of our best interests?

Bull****. This is based on absolutely nothing.

I just don't think separating the crowd will do anything to stop this, nor will anything else, after all..someone can just yell out advice; for example, "STOP JUMPING AFTER THAT!"

Again, just because people might break a certain rule doesn't mean you shouldn't put it in place.

Also, the main problem isn't with people yelling random advice from the crowd, but an actual coach sitting next to a player giving him advice throughout the match.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

amsah there is no way you're still posting on this thread

what the ****

 

[Nihonjin]

I'm not. I just look here every now and then when I'm bored as hell and not working. Which was today.

 

[Cactuar]

I mean... If you are allowed to have a coach, why can't you just have a teammate in the middle of the match with you?

But there should be restrictions on this... like your teammate has to be playing the same character as you... so you can watch what he does correctly vs your opponent, and then you can do it too.

+1 for allowing teammates in the singles bracket. It's not my fault that you don't have any super pro friends to team with you.

Edit: I forgot there are some incredibly dense individuals in this thread. Just for good measure... THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS POST. OBVIOUSLY.

 

[Nihonjin]

Great idea!

+1 (or +2?)

 

[Cactuar]

Clearly, Nihonjin would be my permanent coachteammate. And I would switch my main to Sheik. For the needles.

 

[MT_]

Amsah I am amazed you had the patience and diligence to stay in this thread for so long from before... I tried to debate here for just a small amount of time and found myself facepalming and highly impatient with some of the opposing "arguments" that are brought up and effectively refuted the same way... over and over again. Just sayin', good **** on holding down the fort for so long lmao.