The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[Bud]

If you have the better mind games, you can win right? WRONG. To simply say this and make it the end all is not only idiotic, but its also ignorant. Players who use the same things over again with characters as "mind games" can eventually catch on to your opponents strategy and quickly turn it against them.
different.

^ you were right on many of your points but this one seems a little wrong. "mind games" are not done over and over again, if you do it over and over again it is no longer a mind game. The opponent knows its coming which is not the mind game were talking about. Mind games can be doing the same "mind game" over and over again, then set that same one up and change it up to trick them, that is a small example (though not the best at all) of what we are refering to as "mindgames" what you seem to be talking about is spamming and looses its mind game name once the other player catches onto it. (note, that is my definition of mindgame, some may consider a repeated mindgame still a mindgame, i call mind games simply- messing with your opponents head to make them either attack or move(with your intentions) in your advantage.

 

[MoldinMindz]

The real issue is not so much brawl vs. melee, but that Nintendo is in a current phase of reaching out to casual gamers. Nintendo has spoken about this in countless interviews, it is not my opinion, it is fact. The wii console has put out games for casual gamers, period.

Now, of course we can all still play these games as competitively as we want, and no matter what nintendo does, the good players still beat the casuals, but there really is no arguing that nintendo has "dumbed down" their big name titles.

Mario Kart wii suffered the same fate as brawl. More items that punish the lead racer, wider tracks, a less technical boost system, hell, they even have an automatic feature and a wheel! I guess moving back and forth on the control stick is too much for the new gaming crowd to grasp, lol. I just hope that nintendo will revert back to games that reward their hardcore audience for their next console.

I think the pro-brawl perspective should go something like this.... "Yes, nintendo dumbed down our game, but it is still good enough to play and it is still fun, and if you are good at smash, you will still win so stop complaining." and we should leave the argument at that.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I usually refrain from using the phrase "mind games". Identifying the specific trick, such as feinting, or explaining things as strategy, are much more clear, otherwise, you chalk things up to thinking and can talk about creating patterns, recognizing patterns, prediction, hiding your intention, the list goes on. "mind games" is simply far to broad, far to often misused, and far and away not adequate for explaining what really happens most of the time.

There is no debate, Nintendo dumbed down the technical skill, the question is, does that even matter? Its far easier for someone to learn to be technical than for someone to learn how to play smart, its for this reason that I think, eventually, the skill gaps in Brawl may be wider than they were in Melee, Nintendo may have, by accident, made things worse for novices.

 

[ArgentStew]

I agree with the message that Alpha is saying here... It's nice to know that everything I've been saying isn't the kinda of noobish talk that everyone keeps telling me I've been saying... Probably because the only people who will listen to me are the Melee supporters who want to stuff it in my face about how wrong I am... :/

I want to see a nicely laid out rebuttal to go along with this though...

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

There is no debate, Nintendo dumbed down the technical skill, the question is, does that even matter? Its far easier for someone to learn to be technical than for someone to learn how to play smart, its for this reason that I think, eventually, the skill gaps in Brawl may be wider than they were in Melee, Nintendo may have, by accident, made things worse for novices.

The technical skill matters, but I would have to say that some are exaggerating the difference between the two.

Combo's in Melee were hard to get out of, that was one of the things that kind of bugged me, even if I used it against my opponents in tournaments (0-70% after DI). In Brawl, evaluating their playstyle, predicting and countering what they will do next, has become an opening for combo's, which I find suitable in the game. Sure, I can't punish my brothers as much as I could in Melee, but still find ways to outplay them efficiantly in Brawl (even through I trip more than them, extremely dislike tripping).

I love both games and I will continue to partake in both Melee and Brawl tournaments. As for now, I have no favorite and currently trying to find more possibilities for Brawl and its metagame.

 

[Bud]

The smartest player wins in brawl and that scares me. Now, the people with the highest IQ will be on top. All the nations top spelling b champions will switch over to smash and dominate ruthlessly. We can't let this happen, lets all go study.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

The smartest player wins in brawl and that scares me. Now, the people with the highest IQ will be on top. All the nations top spelling b champions will switch over to smash and dominate ruthlessly. We can't let this happen, lets all go study.

Intelligance =/= Knowledge

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

I main Peach in Melee. Everyone can agree on that Peach doesn't rely on tech skill that much at all. And yet I dislike Brawl for a plethora of reasons. There's a lot more wrong (IMO) with Brawl than the simple lack of technique (which I don't view as a fault, it's the fact that the options said techniques came with are now gone and weren't replaced by other options that I dislike).

Hehehehe. I disagree. I would argue that if you want to play Peach like a wh*re, then you rely on her tech skills quite a lot. This is true in both Melee AND Brawl.

And, actually, Peach is just a great example of a character that shows that technique does in fact play a major role in Brawl. Peach spaces like crazy and cancels all sort of animation lags here and there with all these new bizarre techs discovered every day. To differentiate a good Peach from a n00b/casual Peach, the good Peach relies on the elementary techs that are currently known today (The game came to existance just a 4 months ago...) And same applies to all character who each have their own techs (e.g. Snake's mortar slide, Zamus' reliability on b-sticking for spacing, etc.)

Look, I don't want to fall into circular reasoning, go off topic, or act like a logician. But what I really want to say is that Melee has been out for 7 years. It was fun, intense, competitive, and now it is over. Brawl is next. Amen. Get over it. If you desire competition and skill, then it is up to you to find it. It's there. And don't bother trying to look for it like you did in Melee because you are very likely to fail. This is Brawl. You play or you don't.



*Quick Edit*
Oh, and just a point I forgot to make:
Regardless of how much Melee may (again, may) be superior to Brawl in tech skill and metagaming, Melee will cease to be competitive. Yes, that is right. You see, all these people argue that because Melee has such an advanced and comprehensive metagame, then it is therefore more competitive than Brawl.
Sorry to all those who agree or argue the same, but Melee's competitive value is independent of that.
Tournaments will be based in Brawl, the majority of the people will play Brawl, the minority will continue to Melee or eventually quit. People will want to prove themselves with Brawl and will desire to compete. And that is why Brawl will be competitive and Melee will cease to be competitive.

 

[Egret]

Hehehehe. I disagree. I would argue that if you want to play Peach like a wh*re, then you rely on her tech skills quite a lot. This is true in both Melee AND Brawl.

You can disagree however (and I'm not trying to offend, just inform) it is likely that people will consider Yuna's opinions on this more valid considering the obviously greater amount of peach experience Yuna has.

 

[Iwan]

do people want to watch 2 stock 8 minute matches tho? im all for advacing brawls gameplay but if all the real smashers are sticking to melee while the new guys who just want a game for fun play brawl...then...

2 stock 8 minute matches? Ha...umm, unheard of?

 

[Yuna]

Why did you just talk about Brawl Peach when I talked about Melee Peach?

Anyway, I cannot stop the majority if they want to switch over to Brawl (though I will fight tooth and nail for that to not happen). If it happens, it happens. I might switch over or I might just stop playing Smash Competitively, I'm not sure yet.

But you can't say "I will happen! Melee will be forgotten! Because Brawl is new!". New =/= Better. If the majority decides not to switch over, then they just won't. AZ, many "old timers" are playing Brawl, but how many of them prefer Brawl over Melee and want us to replace Melee with Brawl? How many aren't playing the game begrudgingly?

As far as I know, at least Mew2King is playing Brawl only because he "has" to (it's there, there are lots of tournaments in it nowadays) and GimpyFish seems to dislike the game judging by his latest threads. I mean, that's just two people, sure, but it's not like I'm psychic and can know what everyone thinks.

To play Brawl =/= To want to replace Melee with Brawl.

 

[Bud]

not to dis you yuna, but how may people preferred 64 over melee. Melee didn't feel anywhere near like it does now(I know I had a hard time transitioning from 64 to melee), and with time, maybe, brawl will follow trend. As far as you fighting tooth and nail to stop people from switching to brawl, it makes me think your arguments are never going to consider the opponents argument for brawl, maybe we should all play the game and see what develops. If you want to quit thats fine, but people should make there own mind up, anyways i love reading what you have to say yuna, and no dis intended.

 

[Yuna]

not to dis you yuna, but how may people preferred 64 over melee. Melee didn't feel anywhere near like it does now(I know I had a hard time transitioning from 64 to melee), and with time, maybe, brawl will follow trend.

This is now that is then. The community's grasp of Smash and Competitive gaming was much smaller back then, that was 7+ years ago. The two games are also vastly different, one is designed with hidden depth, the other is designed to not have much hidden (there's a reason why the majority of the things we're discovering are obvious glitches).

As far as you fighting tooth and nail to stop people from switching to brawl, it makes me think your arguments are never going to consider the opponents argument for brawl, maybe we should all play the game and see what develops.

I'll fight tooth and nail because that's what I believe in. It's my opinion that Brawl is boring to not only watch but to play and that it's vastly inferior to Melee. If people can convince me otherwise, I'll stop fighting the transition.

 

[AlexX]

If you don't mind me asking Yuna, why do you feel obligated to try to get those of us who enjoy Brawl into going back to Melee?

For the record, I'm not saying Brawl is better, or that my opinion is greater than yours (because frankly, it's not), I just want to know what the problem is in letting people play whichever game they prefer.

 

[Bud]

yeah I used the AT's in melee for about a year after I heard about them, but i quit using them so I could get better at the game without them. It really helped me with going form melee to brawl and (my opinion) helped me get better at the game. Yes, i completely agree that the community knows what to look for now and has much more input than ever, but some more AT's for brawl (though small ones) have been discovered recently and I truly expect more to be found. As for the boring-ness of brawl, i think it will fade as people get used to their follow up moves. Im sure many many people are still trying too pull off melee combos, which sadly seem to not work at all. Plus the fact that brawl has so much support and input coming in so early can only be hopeful that the metagame will develop much faster than melee and AT's should be discovered much faster. I feel it is too early to say smash was designed to not have much hidden, because things we find aren't hidden, they are exploits the game designers missed in testing, so some may turn up in the future that are just an extremely weird bunch of button inputs. Also it is completely possible you are right and brawl will not evolve enough to satisfy, though it will satisfy some and a large competitive scene for brawl is inevitable. Not to say melee wont make a comeback in a huge way after a few years, but I think it will take just that, a few years if at least not one.

 

[Zankoku]

I just want to know what the problem is in letting people play whichever game they prefer.

Because of people who say things like this.

Tournaments will be based in Brawl, the majority of the people will play Brawl, the minority will continue to Melee or eventually quit. People will want to prove themselves with Brawl and will desire to compete. And that is why Brawl will be competitive and Melee will cease to be competitive.

 

[Yuna]

If you don't mind me asking Yuna, why do you feel obligated to try to get those of us who enjoy Brawl into going back to Melee?

For the record, I'm not saying Brawl is better, or that my opinion is greater than yours (because frankly, it's not), I just want to know what the problem is in letting people play whichever game they prefer.

I'm not going to force anyone. But if someone says something like "Brawl is better and we should all switch over to it from Melee", then I'll be right there to fight that.

Have you ever seen me randomly start a thread just to pick a fight? No, I only reply to people. There are many who are advocating the switch and telling people who don't want to switch to switch. How is what I'm doing any worse?

 

[Not-Beef]

People have made it apparent. The two games are too different to be compared.

Besides, it's easier not to. If you like Melee, go play it. If you like Brawl, play that.

And since we're on the subject of comparing, why is no one comparing Brawl to Smash 64?

 

[Bud]

I agree with yuna, people should not say brawl is better and melee should be dropped, because at this point it's iffy on whether brawl is anything at all, all assumptions about brawls future are pure speculation. Melee however, should NOT be forgotten, its a hella good game and all the love for melee you have in your heart should not be extinguished by brawl. Also, your extreme love for melee should not force the assumption that brawl will never be as good, because a, thats and opinion, and b, some people are bored by melee because of over playing it (no such thing), and some are so in love with melee that anything different feels like a mockery to the franchise. I myself, am going to leave it at this, I love melee and it is one of the most competitive/awesome games ever. I love brawl because it is new/fresh and is a work in progress that I am having to good of a time trying to develop. Nothing can outshine melee but brawl has the potential to become its equal in the fact that it is the community and truly competitive players that make the metagame what it is.

 

[SynikaL]

Intelligance =/= Knowledge

Nor does it equate to diligence.

Bud's post was cute though.


-Kye

 

[Bud]

it was cute wasn't it. I hope you don't think i was trying to be intelligent there, it was more like a M. Night Shamalan SP? (signs, village, ect.) ending. crazy extension of a theory i read, merely for kicks and giggles.

edit: yeah i wasn't sure what the intelligence not = knowledge thing, just trying to clarify cause i saw a response.

 

[SynikaL]

it was cute wasn't it. I hope you don't think i was trying to be intelligent there, it was more like a M. Night Shamalan SP? (signs, village, ect.) ending. crazy extension of a theory i read, merely for kicks and giggles.

lol. Oftentimes, a providing of context is unnecessary. The post was witty in-and-of-itself.

-Kimo

 

[aids514]

I don't think this debate is going anywhere. Yuna will never change his mind just like AZ won't change his. I think it's time to move on. Both sides are pretty stubborn...I don't think any amount of logic will change that.

The result of this debate probably doesn't even matter anyway.

Keep arguing if you want, I'm gonna go play Smash.

 

[Koga]

The problem is that there is this whole community of Gamers that rely on their ability to practice, practice, practice; and they think that if they don't get rewarded for their time practicing that it is a bad game. Smash is designed to take more expirience and less practice to be effective. Those practicers are fine, but smash isn't the kind of game they should be playing, because that's not the kind of game that smash is, go play GG if you want a trophy for all the time you spent practicing. Play smash if you want a trophy for superior decision making and tactics

 

[Bud]

No aids, (lol aids), yuna said he would change his mind with convincing otherwise from what he believes now. It's going to take real change to change yuna's mind (along with many more in the community), not speculation that it will get better.

 

[SynikaL]

This debate is going somewhere, it's just that people lack the clarity necessary to see the direction.

I suggest people read this post I made from Scar's thread (and the 3 or 4 posts afterwards):


http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4305630&postcount=2611

*edit*

Link to a few subsequent posts supporting this:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=153322&page=178


Alpha's post is not bringing anything new to the table, it's simply a refinement of existential Brawl philosophies bridging the gap between this community and the inevitable conclusion.

Notice how there's substantially less bickering and the general level of orderliness is more palpable than other Brawl vs. Melee threads. It mostly consists of individuals attempting to constructively identify the heart of the problem.


My previous post was mainly attacking the subtly of the "Ego" present in Alpha's OP. It's one of the better Pro-Brawl arguments simply because of how lacking it is in that element, though it's still subtly present -- hence, the lack of outrageous responses present in this thread.


Just my theory.


-Kimo

 

[Reyairia]

This is now that is then. The community's grasp of Smash and Competitive gaming was much smaller back then, that was 7+ years ago. The two games are also vastly different...

I bet $200 people will be saying the exact (or similar) thing when the next Smash installment comes out about the Brawl vs. Melee argument. Who wants to take me on? After all, isn't Yuna saying that Melee and 64 were vastly different, the same way he's saying Brawl and Melee are vastly different as well? Maybe it's cause I'm just a casual bystander who knows little about competitive smash but I'm a little confused there. Although I do know how people in general tend to behave towards new things.

Also, Melee was never designed to have "much hidden," it was just unfinished and it was not the developer's intention to make it that way. It was a mistake, an error, and it's logical that it would be corrected in Brawl. You guys should have realized this when the first demos were appearing and people were quoted "This is not Melee, it's an entirely new game." Or even before, when you discovered these Melee techniques and why they were there.

 

[aids514]

What I meant about this arguement not going anywhere is that there won't likely be any real results.

The Smash community won't likely 100% agree on anything so all this arguing is basically just for fun. Whatever happens with tournaments etc. will happen regardless of the outcome of this debate (if there even is one).

I'm just sticking to my "less talk, more rock" philosophy. But...substitue smash for rock.

 

[Egret]

I bet $200 people will be saying the exact (or similar) thing when the next Smash installment comes out about the Brawl vs. Melee argument. Who wants to take me on?

Unlikely since brawl doesn't provide as much oppurtunity for increasing knowledge or even the competetive seen really but even if it does happen it's irrelevant.

 

[Bud]

Unlikely since brawl doesn't provide as much oppurtunity for increasing knowledge or even the competetive seen really but even if it does happen it's irrelevant.

^ how do you know that, My mommy told my time machines don't exist.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

^ how do you know that, My mommy told my time machines don't exist.

Lol.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bud]

this thread doesn't deserve to be on page 2 yet, im going to save it.

BTW smooth criminal- that falcon knee in your sig is awesome, i wish i could knee someone like falcon in real life.... it would really hurt.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

it was cute wasn't it. I hope you don't think i was trying to be intelligent there, it was more like a M. Night Shamalan SP? (signs, village, ect.) ending. crazy extension of a theory i read, merely for kicks and giggles.

edit: yeah i wasn't sure what the intelligence not = knowledge thing, just trying to clarify cause i saw a response.

Ok, maybe the approach and initial response was a little unclear.
I thought your response was funny, so I put the LOL icon there.
The intelligence =/= knowledge portion came from assuming the 'smartest' people would be the best in brawl. Intelligence would be applied to what you were describing, a spelling-b champ as an example.
I was just pointing out that the example of the best brawler was a bit farfetched. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Bud]

lol, your sig added the confusion tyfighter.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

lol, your sig added the confusion tyfighter.

Ha ha, I'm evil!!! (changed sig)

 

[7ak]

Brawl is garbage, I agree 1000% with Eggm and Zjin's posts. The only "depth" in the game is who is willing to play campy/gay enough for the longest period of time and "trick" the opponent into a grab or tilt. I enjoy playing mindlessly beautiful Smash64 and Melee, it's half the fun............if you really want to win, sure you space and mindgame but otherwise its too much god**** fun to go butt nuts with Falcon.

Melee is to a beautiful dance, colorful painting, and gourmet dinner as Brawl is to fencing in a straightjacket, blurry black and white, and McDonalds.

I'll personally wait for a hacked version of Melee emulated online or some other fighting game on another system...........imagine being able to adjust certain gay chainthrows, wobbling, certain overpowered moves, etc. and playing online.

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

I'll personally wait for a hacked version of Melee emulated online or some other fighting game on another system...........imagine being able to adjust certain gay chainthrows, wobbling, certain overpowered moves, etc. and playing online.

There is no such thing as a perfect game. *cough* Melee *cough*

A man can dream......... A man can dream..........

 

[Bud]

7ak, it seems harsh to compare brawl to melee like you did. It is clearly not the case you have presented and you seem to only be following the crowed and being on the extreme side of the "pro-melee" group. How can brawl be garbage because you can't go nuts with falcon. Thats not enough to call it garbage, and to call the only depth brawl contains only camping, is some what noobish of an assumption that i have seen quite a few times on these boards lately. Yes camping has been an issue for like 10% of all games, but in they tournys that have happened the better players are winning (and wrecking faces if you haven't been watching the vids.) and the campy people aren't winning, camping is beatable, and hitstun isnt everything. However, I respect your opinion that melee is better than brawl, but your being too extreme for me not to respond.

 

[Iwan]

Let's just all cry about how brawl isn't melee....

anyone need me to call a whambulance?

Seriously...we've heard "you melee guys" complain. We've heard it a billion times by now. Is this doing anything at all to help your cause? No...no it's not. But i do know a lot of people on here are sick of all the b*******, and definitely sick of all of these stupid, stupid posts with nothing but whining and complaining.

We understand what you don't like about brawl, and honestly, a mojority of "us brawl kids" like melee better anyway. I know i do...hell, I'd sell drugs to get L-canceling and hit stun back. I'd sell pounds and pounds of crack.

But it's not gona happen. Unless you guys find ways to hack the game, or someone finds "hitstun-adding-airdodge-locking-combo-dashing"....you're either going to have to live with brawl and learn how to play it competitively, or...i guess not post here and whine? That'd be nice at least.

Brawl is competitive, not in the same light as melee or in the same ways, but it is. I won't repost everything AZ said. But really, can some of you please stop QQ'ing?

 

[Viewtifulzfo]

I'm new to the forums, but I've played quite a bit of fighting games in my lifetime and have a pretty good grasp of the competitive fighting scene.

What I propose is that Melee and Brawl can coexist - for the moment. Really, whatever game is better competitively will be proven by the test of time. Both will stick around, I bet.

Take, for example, the Street Fighter Alpha series. Alpha 2, nowadays, was considered the pinnacle of competitive SFA play. When SFA3 came out, many were disheartened by the different -ism modes that straightjacketed the player to specific strategies. V-ism (custom combos and whatnot) became dominant for most characters, and while A-ism was good for a select few, X-ism was completely worthless (except for people playing alternate strats, like X-ism Boxer).

Did the Street Fighter community abandon Alpha 3, even after multiple infinite combos were discovered? No, they didn't. They kept on playing, finding even more and more strategies to add to their game, tiers moved up and and down and life went on. SFA2 eventually phased out of the tournament scene as well.

I have a feeling the situtation will be different with SFIII: TS and SFIV. Every competitive fighting game fan has heard of Third Strike in some manner - it's still played, even though certain characters have remained dominant over its 9 year lifespan. Much like with SSF2T, it'll probably stay around.

At least for me, the same thing could happen with Melee, it might not. The huge influx of players, of course, might be a determining factor in which game will win, but I don't believe Melee will be phased out entirely if it proves its mettle as a classic fighter like TS. If enough people stick to Melee (or, in fact, these people decide to play both), it'll survive and thrive. Choose one or the other; if you like one, play that one, and enjoy it for what it is. There's no need to disparage one another based on your preconcieved notions of how Smash Bros. should be played. Nintendo changed the game up on everyone, and everyone's a little fussy in the transition period, but I imagine that Melee and Brawl will probably both be around for a long time (even if Brawl's ends up being primarily from its popularity). If Melee laster 7 years or so, is it unlikely that it will last longer?

Alot of this has to do with how the tournament organizers view the Smash Bros. games as well, which may make Melee a little less likely to stick around. However, if the players petition, their work won't go unrewarded.

This is a really long way of saying, play whatever one you want; debating the relative merits of "skill" at this point justs alienates people into completely fabricated opposing sides over a video game about a plumber beating up a guy who pulls plants out of the ground and throws them at people. Have a little good humor - the game's not all that serious, and competiton is fun, not ingratiating.

EDIT: One other thing...for those who complain about "balance" in fighting games: http://insomnia.ac/commentary/domination_101/prelude_to_a_diss/