The Brawl-Melee Debate: A Different View

[AlphaZealot]

Yea, I'll make a post down the road, I think team play is better than it was in Melee. For singles, I haven't made up my mind either way yet, I'm going to wait to see what develops when major tournaments start occurring.

In regards to tripping: I don't know if it was ever concluded, but some theorized a perfect left right made you chance to trip zero, apparently it was being tested with the wii mote D-pad and the amount of tripping was zero. Shrug, I stopped following the thread. I just know that I don't trip much, and other people trip quite often, there is something going on that we are not understanding (god, AR, where are you!). I've heard similar sentiments from other players as well.

 

[mangodurban]

many characters can combo, like G&W, hes a beast and his turtle and key along with his up parachute wrecks campers.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

just a shame that the things I liked in melee are gone in brawl, oh well, we always have melee right?

 

[thumbswayup]

Yeah, it's never fun when you face campers in either scenario. I loved our Diddy dittos at that C3 tourny. Despite both of us using projectiles, neither of us camped. We both charged head on to set up a bannana combo. Why can't everyone play like this?

 

[Reyairia]

Let me ask you, who counters Metaknight?

Pit cancels out a lot of my attacks.

 

[mzink*]

very interesting thread, i appreciate all the time and effort that went into it. ive also enjoyed reading the debates going back and forth between you guys, gives me alot to think about. just my two cents, i was a bit competitive with melee, i went to all the college tournaments but didnt take it any further than that. on the thinking level of melee/brawl, i did a some thinking in melee of course but as Alpha said it was more mental and physical programming. i practiced alot to get better and better. i had a bit of a mental block with brawl because i wouldnt let go of my melee playstyle. it wasnt untill recently that i realized that my problem was i wasnt putting in the level of creative thinking and mental/psycological effort that i had to when up against a good brawler, and i had to force myself into that mindset. once i did i started doing much better. brawl seems to be much more of a thinking game with your opponent. and though it does slow the game down alot and makes me miss the melee playstyle, it gives a different type of satisfaction when you win and like Alpha said it is a very rewarding victory.

Just a question: it might have to do with the buffer system, but what did Sakurai do to the c-stick? Does anyone else have problems of it just randomly not working? I was playing someone and won by 1 stock and high damage. I would've won by either two stocks high damage or at least low damage on my last stock if my stupid c-stick would actually work.I input the command for dsmash 5 times in a row and it only worked on the fifth. Plus my dairs just weren't there (i mostly only use c-stick down, if you haven't noticed).

yes the same thing happens to ALL of my controlers at the same time. most of my online buddies know this so they know to back off right away if i try to retreat to the edge of the stage cuz my controler is actin up.

 

[Yuna]

Yeah, it's never fun when you face campers in either scenario. I loved our Diddy dittos at that C3 tourny. Despite both of us using projectiles, neither of us camped. We both charged head on to set up a bannana combo. Why can't everyone play like this?

Because camping is just too effective.

 

[Sandwich]

How to win at Brawl:
1) Pick Pit
2) Arrow x9000
3) AIAYIAYAIYAIYAIYAIYIAYIA
4) Fsmash

 

[thumbswayup]

How to win at Brawl:
1) Pick Pit
2) Arrow x9000
3) AIAYIAYAIYAIYAIYAIYIAYIA
4) Fsmash

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm seriously contemplating making this my new sig.

 

[mzink*]

all i have to do to make my dog go bazerk running in circles, is say HIYAYAYAAA HIYAYAYAAA HIYAYAYAAA HIYAYAYAAA over and over real loud. it turns him rabid or something. to actually make this post have a place on this thread, when you talk about campers, are you saying they are actually very difficult for you to defeat or just that they are annoying? ive faced a few, mostly samus, that roll roll shoot roll roll shoot over and over and it is tedious and takes a while but not really difficult to defeat. ive never brawled any "good" campers before.

 

[Artery_Clogger]

I find the arguement that Brawl is better for the community because technical ability doesn't separate the good from the great quite ridiculous. You're saying I should be able to step onto a tennis court and play even with pete sampras because I can think just as well as him? All those years he's spent perfecting his serve, forehand, and backhand mean nothing because we'll both have limits on our strength and speed. Therefore, my serve will be equal to his and the only way one of us will win the match is too guess which direction the opponent will hit the ball and just return it back with the same strength/speed and hope he trips while trying to return it.

I like this post.

In almost every other competitive community, such as sports or other fighting games, people seem to enjoy that the game they play is technical and actually time to get good at these things. But in this community, there seems to be a handful of people who don't understand this for whatever reason.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I like this post.

In almost every other competitive community, such as sports or other fighting games, people seem to enjoy that the game they play is technical and actually time to get good at these things. But in this community, there seems to be a handful of people who don't understand this for whatever reason.

I don't know; to me, oversimplifying the game like that isn't very convincing.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I disagree on a few parts with AlphaZealot, most notably these:

1. Technical Skill:

Many people say this, and it's something I don't understand at all: how on earth can you use technical skill as a "crutch" to avoid thinking? Are you going to yell "ARrrrrrrrr," do some multishines and expect them to fall over, or what? All that tech skill does is give you more options, but what are you going to do with options that you can't use in a smart way?

2. Combos:

Saying that Combos are mostly rehearsed in training mode and take mostly technical skill and little prediction is massive exaggeration. Yes, tech skill is required for many combos, I'll admit that. There's no denying it. But in no way are combos "pre set." Often, if you incorrectly predicted DI, it's impossible to continue comboing. Mindgames and predictions are necessary. DI, especially SDI is way underrated.

3. Defensive gameplay:

Combos contribute to this as well. Yes, of course, there are a few approach options. But why would you even want to approach? Duh, you can hit your opponent if you attack him!!! Well, yes. But so can he. And he can hit you while you're coming to him. And since you have a very few approach options, but while he's standing he has every option available, he has the advantage.

Now, hypthetically, you've managed to land a hit on your opponent, passing through great trials and working your *** off. Guess what happens next? You get hit back. Wait, what? That can't be right! I hit him? How come he gets a free hit on me too? Because there's very little hitstun. Obviously, this is slightly exxagerated, but often the attacker puts himself at a disadvantage by actually hitting the defender. The notion is completely absurd, and the consequences are obvious: why bother attacking when you can safely stay away/camp? Why put yourself at a greater risk to get hit than your opponent when you don't get rewarded for it?

No reason. The best strategy is always to try and put your opponent at a disadvantage in options compared to your options, and in Brawl, the easiest and most efficent way to do this is not to attack.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Many people say this, and it's something I don't understand at all: how on earth can you use technical skill as a "crutch" to avoid thinking? Are you going to yell "ARrrrrrrrr," do some multishines and expect them to fall over, or what? All that tech skill does is give you more options, but what are you going to do with options that you can't use in a smart way?

Actually, yes, thats exactly what happens. Again, as a Peach player, in tournaments I use to constantly run into players in pool play with more technical ability than me, but often these players would blindly rush in as if I'd never seen someone drill shine before. Its not limited to just mid level players either, as SCC, one of my team matches came down to my Peach 2v1 against Zelgadis and Luninspectre (I think), all of us were in the low percentages, they were both the space animals, and instead of playing smart and working as a team they constantly let me split between them for easy downsmashes because they were attempting 1v1s and hoping for easy drill shine combos, I eventually won, despite both players being far superior in technical ability to me, because I was playing smart and not praying that my technical mastery would overcome far simpler techniques (basically, space away from the drill shine into a downsmash, so obvious, so easy, so beatable, yet so effective if the player isn't thinking).

For your second point, talk to Mew2King and you'll understand just to what extent a person can take these memorized combos.

As per your third point: watch Azen or Chillin or pretty much any winner of any tournament, few actually camp, and when they do, not to the levels you'll see pit players, most refer to their camping as "sitting right next to you and pressuring" which is not the annoying camping most refer to. Like the extreme campers in Melee, camping only works to a point, the best and smartest players foil camping every time. If Chillin were to pop back into this thread maybe he could offer further insight on the subject.

 

[DarkKyanite]

totally agreed

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Actually, yes, thats exactly what happens. Again, as a Peach player, in tournaments I use to constantly run into players in pool play with more technical ability than me, but often these players would blindly rush in as if I'd never seen someone drill shine before. Its not limited to just mid level players either, as SCC, one of my team matches came down to my Peach 2v1 against Zelgadis and Luninspectre (I think), all of us were in the low percentages, they were both the space animals, and instead of playing smart and working as a team they constantly let me split between them for easy downsmashes because they were attempting 1v1s and hoping for easy drill shine combos, I eventually won, despite both players being far superior in technical ability to me, because I was playing smart and not praying that my technical mastery would overcome far simpler techniques (basically, space away from the drill shine into a downsmash, so obvious, so easy, so beatable, yet so effective if the player isn't thinking).

Perfect, we agree with each other then. Tech skill without thinking gets you nowhere, that's what we're both saying, right?

For your second point, talk to Mew2King and you'll understand just to what extent a person can take these memorized combos.

True, you have to know what moves combo into what. But if you're Falco and shine a fox on the ground, and he ASDI's and techs it, you could have tech chased if you were careful. But you were expecting him to DI away, so you waveshined after only to find that Fox is gone and lasering you.

As per your third point: watch Azen or Chillin or pretty much any winner of any tournament, few actually camp, and when they do, not to the levels you'll see pit players, most refer to their camping as "sitting right next to you and pressuring" which is not the annoying camping most refer to. Like the extreme campers in Melee, camping only works to a point, the best and smartest players foil camping every time. If Chillin were to pop back into this thread maybe he could offer further insight on the subject.

Yes, the camping I mean is of the "sitting next to you and pressuring" variety. Overswarm talked about it in the "What's with the camping" thread in the tournament discussion section.

I still think that this is the most effective strategy. Yes, a smart player can beat it, but what if the camper is a smart player as well?

 

[Jam Stunna]

Actually, yes, thats exactly what happens. Again, as a Peach player, in tournaments I use to constantly run into players in pool play with more technical ability than me, but often these players would blindly rush in as if I'd never seen someone drill shine before. Its not limited to just mid level players either, as SCC, one of my team matches came down to my Peach 2v1 against Zelgadis and Luninspectre (I think), all of us were in the low percentages, they were both the space animals, and instead of playing smart and working as a team they constantly let me split between them for easy downsmashes because they were attempting 1v1s and hoping for easy drill shine combos, I eventually won, despite both players being far superior in technical ability to me, because I was playing smart and not praying that my technical mastery would overcome far simpler techniques (basically, space away from the drill shine into a downsmash, so obvious, so easy, so beatable, yet so effective if the player isn't thinking).

For your second point, talk to Mew2King and you'll understand just to what extent a person can take these memorized combos.

As per your third point: watch Azen or Chillin or pretty much any winner of any tournament, few actually camp, and when they do, not to the levels you'll see pit players, most refer to their camping as "sitting right next to you and pressuring" which is not the annoying camping most refer to. Like the extreme campers in Melee, camping only works to a point, the best and smartest players foil camping every time. If Chillin were to pop back into this thread maybe he could offer further insight on the subject.

You're not refuting his points. In fact, you actually confirmed what he was trying to say: tech skill combined with smart play makes for better players. You may have beaten technically superior players, but you sure didn't do it without float-canceling.

And you didn't answer his question: what incentive does anyone have to attack with such little hitstun? From what I've seen, most pros main characters that have huge knokckback to compensate for the lack of hitstun (Cort and PC use Snake, M2K usues D3, I've seen Azen use Ike, etc.). The game now is nothing more than a match of tag: hit the opponent far, far, away so that they can't punish you, wait for them to return, rinse and repeat.

 

[mangodurban]

Ive seen some really tight battles full of constant fighting. And ive played super campers, i usually beat them but it is annoying. But Zealot is right, the meta game will get around it, i use G&W and DDD against campers as are some other characters good against campers. Oh, and if your talking about projectile spammers (minus skake) simply use G&W or ness/lucas, and spam down b, it really frustrates campers to see you get back to zero% from 50 or always hitting them with paint. Camping is not the best strategy, it just works right now and frustrates alot of players into not playing logically.

 

[Koga]

I disagree on a few parts with AlphaZealot, most notably these:

1. Technical Skill:

Many people say this, and it's something I don't understand at all: how on earth can you use technical skill as a "crutch" to avoid thinking? Are you going to yell "ARrrrrrrrr," do some multishines and expect them to fall over, or what? All that tech skill does is give you more options, but what are you going to do with options that you can't use in a smart way?

2. Combos:

Saying that Combos are mostly rehearsed in training mode and take mostly technical skill and little prediction is massive exaggeration. Yes, tech skill is required for many combos, I'll admit that. There's no denying it. But in no way are combos "pre set." Often, if you incorrectly predicted DI, it's impossible to continue comboing. Mindgames and predictions are necessary. DI, especially SDI is way underrated.

3. Defensive gameplay:

Combos contribute to this as well. Yes, of course, there are a few approach options. But why would you even want to approach? Duh, you can hit your opponent if you attack him!!! Well, yes. But so can he. And he can hit you while you're coming to him. And since you have a very few approach options, but while he's standing he has every option available, he has the advantage.

Now, hypthetically, you've managed to land a hit on your opponent, passing through great trials and working your *** off. Guess what happens next? You get hit back. Wait, what? That can't be right! I hit him? How come he gets a free hit on me too? Because there's very little hitstun. Obviously, this is slightly exxagerated, but often the attacker puts himself at a disadvantage by actually hitting the defender. The notion is completely absurd, and the consequences are obvious: why bother attacking when you can safely stay away/camp? Why put yourself at a greater risk to get hit than your opponent when you don't get rewarded for it?

No reason. The best strategy is always to try and put your opponent at a disadvantage in options compared to your options, and in Brawl, the easiest and most efficent way to do this is not to attack.

Ok:

1. Tech Skill- In far to many fighting games tech skill is far to rewarding. It rewards those that have spent more time practicing imputs; not practicing strategies. I am a hardcore Melty Blood player and while its a very fun game, combo's are to rewarding for merely landing your launcher. The real deal is this: When there is sufficient tech skill required, other techs mean less. Sure tech skill without thinking gets you no where, but less thinking by far is required. For example, in melty blood I need not know how to counter my opponents strategies, only how to get a 2A in to start my combo and try to avoid there combo's more than they combo me, thus i deal more damage and win. Deep huh? Tech skill shouldn't diminish the other factors of the game to a point where they are only marginal. Sure you have to think in melee, but if your tech skill is high enough, you don't have to think nearly as much, just get that one hit in (well we have DI in smash so, that just inherently makes it deeper.

2. Combo-N. a Series of hits where, once the first one hits the rest are inescapable. Very little thinking or predicition is required, only execution. In smash we have DI so it helps a little, but if the game was like most people wanted, DI only matters a little bit because some combo's are still guranteed even with DI.


3. why does punishment have to meet your standard of worth for an approach? You're not even really put at a disadvantage because of the control over your opponent it gives you. You hit them in to the air with MK Ftilt, then you airdodge past their hitboxes and Bair when you come out.

you know, you guys seem to say the same things happen all the time, if so why are you still falling for it? if you always get hit after an approach, then why haven't you anticipated it and adjusted appropriately?

Don't try to hinder the brawl players because you have a strategy Problem.

Camping is not the best strategy, it just works right now and frustrates alot of players into not playing logically.

Ding ding we have a winner. this is whats happening people, figure a way around it

 

[mangodurban]

Heres a new AT panda put out, it looks like it may fool a lot of campers into going for a attack. good find panda. kudos. just more proof that we dont know everything about brawl yet.

Dash Pivot Cancel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZg0f8RTMOg

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I disagree on a few parts with AlphaZealot, most notably these:

1. Technical Skill:

Many people say this, and it's something I don't understand at all: how on earth can you use technical skill as a "crutch" to avoid thinking? Are you going to yell "ARrrrrrrrr," do some multishines and expect them to fall over, or what? All that tech skill does is give you more options, but what are you going to do with options that you can't use in a smart way?

2. Combos:

Saying that Combos are mostly rehearsed in training mode and take mostly technical skill and little prediction is massive exaggeration. Yes, tech skill is required for many combos, I'll admit that. There's no denying it. But in no way are combos "pre set." Often, if you incorrectly predicted DI, it's impossible to continue comboing. Mindgames and predictions are necessary. DI, especially SDI is way underrated.

3. Defensive gameplay:

Combos contribute to this as well. Yes, of course, there are a few approach options. But why would you even want to approach? Duh, you can hit your opponent if you attack him!!! Well, yes. But so can he. And he can hit you while you're coming to him. And since you have a very few approach options, but while he's standing he has every option available, he has the advantage.

Now, hypthetically, you've managed to land a hit on your opponent, passing through great trials and working your *** off. Guess what happens next? You get hit back. Wait, what? That can't be right! I hit him? How come he gets a free hit on me too? Because there's very little hitstun. Obviously, this is slightly exxagerated, but often the attacker puts himself at a disadvantage by actually hitting the defender. The notion is completely absurd, and the consequences are obvious: why bother attacking when you can safely stay away/camp? Why put yourself at a greater risk to get hit than your opponent when you don't get rewarded for it?

No reason. The best strategy is always to try and put your opponent at a disadvantage in options compared to your options, and in Brawl, the easiest and most efficent way to do this is not to attack.

1. This affects mid-level players most, because only mid-level players and scrubs lose to them, and the scrubs lose to everyone. These people have always thinned out by the end of a tournament, along with people who don't wavedash or shffl. That's why I've always said that they "somewhat" made up for a lack of ability to think because they always lose to people who both can think and can mash buttons fast. You could take 2 people of roughly the same skill level, one with no mindgames, and one with no tech skill, and you'll find them in every tournament. The first player could often do things so fast that the second has no way to respond to them because he can't mash a button 60 times a second. Brawl's gameplay tends to bring the group with no mindgames down to typical scrub level of skill, and the group with no tech skill to slightly worse than people who win tournaments.

2. Some combos are definitely rehearsed. Look at the combos where I'd have absolutely NO way of getting out of them regardless of what I did. The "true combos" everyone is obsessed with. How is it not rehearsed to do something that literally has no counter, other than not getting hit with the first hit in the sequence?

3. Why would I want to approach? Here's an example for you: Peach vs. Olimar. If neither opponent approaches, and just throws **** at the other guy and blocks whatever is thrown at him, Peach will always lose. But if Peach approaches, she could get Olimar off the stage, and gimp him. There are many more examples like this. The key to approaching is doing so smartly. You can't just rush in the same way everytime unless you want to get ***** slapped, or it's working. There's a guessing game involved. My opponent could always put up his shield, but if I GRAB him, he might stop doing it if I do it 600 times in a match... Anything else he could do could be predicted, and I could bait him to do it. The common complaint is with characters that have throws that they "can't do anything with". There are many characters that can combo out of their throws, or kill with them, but everyone else could just use whatever throw has the furthest knockback or best damage, because usually that sends the opponent too far for them to do anything to you. It's still useful against shields. Also, if they typically drop their shield into an attack, you can always grab them before they drop their shield, or bait them to do whatever they were going to out of the shield. And for all the hits that have so little hitstun that the opponent could hit you out of them but too much lag for you to respond to your opponent's hits, use these sparingly, and don't attempt to combo with them. Defensive strategies are easier to figure out than offensive strategies, but that's the case with almost every game right after the launch. Would you like Brawl better if there was absolutely no way to defend, and I could just walk and ftilt over and over and there was nothing you could do to respond to it?

 

[Yuna]

Heres a new AT panda put out, it looks like it may fool a lot of campers into going for a attack. good find panda. kudos. just more proof that we dont know everything about brawl yet.

Dash Pivot Cancel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZg0f8RTMOg

Bad players constantly fall for that. And who would just stand still and wait for your opponent to run up to you, anyway? You camp by keeping them at bay and then when they come too close, you hit them. You don't give them enough time to actually pivot and then smash you (unless you suck).

I mean, it's not like its instant.

 

[derf]

In regards to tripping: I don't know if it was ever concluded, but some theorized a perfect left right made you chance to trip zero, apparently it was being tested with the wii mote D-pad and the amount of tripping was zero. .

thats not true. there was some evidence that perfect left/right running trips about 1% less often. and although significant trials were conducted by one person, as far as i know no one has replicated his findings

and still no one addresses the buffer system. of course it was implemented to make nintendo's sorry excuse for online play tolerable. that doesn't mean its not a horrible game mechanic for playing in-person

 

[mangodurban]

yes, but the technique can be performed say after pika's b which would force the opponent into the initial shield and follow it up with that technique or without. It will be the ever changing of doing the technique into a smash, not doing the technique and smashing, or grabbing them. It puts them to where they have to prepare for 3 possible actions. I could think of more, but i haven't spent enough time with the technique (5 min) to be sure, however, it will help some and no yuna, you can just expect them to sit still and wait. very very true.

 

[Ørion]

Great thread, 100000/100000, very good, well laid out, and eloquent information. I agree with you 100% that people shouldn't say that brawl won't have as much depth as melee after 3 months.

 

[Percon]

Wonderful read, as usual.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Bad players constantly fall for that. And who would just stand still and wait for your opponent to run up to you, anyway? You camp by keeping them at bay and then when they come too close, you hit them. You don't give them enough time to actually pivot and then smash you (unless you suck).

I mean, it's not like its instant.

You actually watched that video and then determined immediately that nothing will come of it? The applications this has with some characters seems both interesting and useful, that you can't see the possibilities is making me think you are turning a blind eye toward brawl out of spite instead of embracing it with an open mind. I mean, by your logic, Azen should never hit anyone with an F-Smash with Marth the way he did in Melee and the way he still does with characters (IKE!) in Brawl, but it happens because he is smart and is good at prediction. You are only limited by your own faculties.

 

[Koga]

You actually watched that video and then determined immediately that nothing will come of it? The applications this has with some characters seems both interesting and useful, that you can't see the possibilities is making me think you are turning a blind eye toward brawl out of spite instead of embracing it with an open mind. I mean, by your logic, Azen should never hit anyone with an F-Smash with Marth the way he did in Melee and the way he still does with characters (IKE!) in Brawl, but it happens because he is smart and is good at prediction. You are only limited by your own faculties.

Don't you know? Yuna knows all!!!

 

[tk~]

Ya you know, nobody beats the hadoken bait into shoryuken in the Street Fighter series. It's like unstoppable ya know *snickers*

 

[Jack Kieser]

You actually watched that video and then determined immediately that nothing will come of it? The applications this has with some characters seems both interesting and useful, that you can't see the possibilities is making me think you are turning a blind eye toward brawl out of spite instead of embracing it with an open mind. I mean, by your logic, Azen should never hit anyone with an F-Smash with Marth the way he did in Melee and the way he still does with characters (IKE!) in Brawl, but it happens because he is smart and is good at prediction. You are only limited by your own faculties.

Hey, be careful speaking to Yuna like that; he has this game all figured out much more now than any of us could possibly hope to in years. If he says there are no applications, by George, there must be no applications.

 

[TengenToppaDrill]

Great post. Ignore all the bad comments. You're on the right track. By the way, new techniques are being found everyday. Take Dash Pivot Cancelling for example. We have just scraped the surface of this game.

 

[SynikaL]

While I generally agree with most of what Alpha is saying, there's still the snobbish and absolutely silly notion that Brawl is more competitively inclined simply because it's less technical. Brawl is only one competitive outlet of many legitimate and near infinite possibilities in this world -- it's progenitor included, and as such, its level of entry for every competitive hopeful is only different when weighed against the varied possibilities -- not qualifiably better. In no shape or form.

When talking dexterity, specifically, to demerit the mindgame aspects of Melee because of the elaborate nature of its technical metagame is absurd, as you're doing two things:

1. Insulting the talents of those who cherish the culturing of their dexterity, which in many competitive outlets -- such as sports --is a magnetic trait for any competitive player to possess.

2. Blinding yourself with the absolute judgement that players don't have to apply mental faculties to make their technical abilities work. And that's stupid.

Yes, in Brawl, mindgames are more prevalent as a result of the various mechanics excised during the transition. But, I don't even think I need to go into detail here: Do you truly believe that Melee was an overall "stupider" game due to this variance? Are you really that unintelligent? I don't think so.

A more technically inclined fighting game rewards players with higher levels of dedication. That is all.

That skinny white guy you see on the sidelines at your neighborhood basketball blacktop stays on the sidelines, alone, because his lack of dedication to the sport shows. He doesn't hit the gym. He doesn't work on his jumper often, comes to play in blue jeans and a wife-beater, can't handle the ball with his left and his vert is about 10 inches. Unfortunately for him, and all others like him, the rim regulations won't change to accommodate him, neither will various markers such as the 3-point arc and free-throw lines, nor will the court size shrink to assuage his laggardness.

Eventually, he'll turn his back to that avenue and just go play Brawl, as basketball's requirement of entry is simply too unjust. While those Neanderthals continue to excessively work on their bodies, hone the forms in their jump-shot and dribble techniques, and perfect conventional high-level offensive and defensive playstyles through rote memorization; "skinny-white-guy" can go home, turn on the Wii and train his mind.

GTFO.



Stop trying to paint Melee enthusiasts as Brain-in-the-Jar automatons with robotic hinges in their knuckles. That portrait is anything but a manifestation of Melee's high-level gameplay. Melee offers diversity of styles and reward for dedication, much more so than Brawl (at this point). Just because a player has honed his technical abilities to an impressive level and manages to beat Azen or Ken despite not being as smart as them, does not highlight any sort of detriment to Melee's high-level play. It simply exhibits diversity in legitimate playstyles. Something welcome in any competitive oultlet.

And yes, being "technical" in Melee is a style choice.

Done.


-Kimosabae

 

[TengenToppaDrill]

While I generally agree with most of what Alpha is saying, there's still the snobbish and absolutely silly notion that Brawl is more competitively inclined simply because it's less technical. Brawl is only one competitive outlet of many legitimate and near infinite possibilities in this world -- it's progenitor included, and as such, its level of entry for every competitive hopeful is only different when weighed against the varied possibilities -- not qualifiably better. In no shape or form.

When talking dexterity, specifically, to demerit the mindgame aspects of Melee because of the elaborate nature of its technical metagame is absurd, as you're doing two things:

1. Insulting the talents of those who cherish the culturing of their dexterity, which in many competitive outlets -- such as sports --is a magnetic trait for any competitive player to possess.

2. Blinding yourself with the absolute judgement that players don't have to apply mental faculties to make their technical abilities work. And that's stupid.

Yes, in Brawl, mindgames are more prevalent as a result of the various mechanics excised during the transition. But, I don't even think I need to go into detail here: Do you truly believe that Melee was an overall "stupider" game due to this variance? Are you really that unintelligent? I don't think so.

A more technically inclined fighting game rewards players with higher levels of dedication. That is all.

That skinny white guy you see on the sidelines at your neighborhood basketball blacktop stays on the sidelines, alone, because his lack of dedication to the sport shows. He doesn't hit the gym. He doesn't work on his jumper often, comes to play in blue jeans and a wife-beater, can't handle the ball with his left and his vert is about 10 inches. Unfortunately for him, and all others like him, the rim regulations won't change to accommodate him, neither will various markers such as the 3-point arc and free-throw lines, nor will the court size shrink to assuage his laggardness.

Eventually, he'll turn his back to that avenue and just go play Brawl, as basketball's requirement of entry is simply too unjust. While those Neanderthals continue to excessively work on their bodies, hone the forms in their jump-shot and dribble techniques, and memorize conventional high-level offensive and defensive playstyles through rote memorization; "skinny-white-guy" can go home, turn on the Wii and train his mind.

GTFO.



Stop trying to paint Melee enthusiasts as Brain-in-the-Jar automatons with robotic hinges in their knuckles. That portrait is anything but a manifestation of Melee's high-level gameplay. Melee offers diversity of styles and reward for dedication, much more so than Brawl (at this point). Just because a player has honed his technical abilities to an impressive level and manages to beat Azen or Ken despite not being as smart as them, does not highlight any sort of detriment to Melee's high-level play. It simply exhibits diversity in legitimate playstyles. Something welcome in any competitive oultlet.

And yes, being "technical" in Melee is a style choice.

Done.

-Kimosabae

I'm confused who are you talking to?
Whats up with the basketball ref?
Help me out!!

 

[SynikaL]

It's mostly to Alpha, but also concerns like-minded individuals concerning the idea that Melee takes less mental abilities than Brawl. Sorry is that isn't clear, my original intention was to make a spam post, lol.


-Kimo

 

[mangodurban]

Do you know why brawl does not reward for dedication at this point? Because there hasn't been much time for dedication, and/or with three months into the brawl scene, many many people are on the same amount of dedication. In other words dedication means you have dedicated (in your theory) more time than the other people. In other other words, everyones pretty new into the game, the dedicated will prevail in the end if you give enough time for the dedication process (time for dedication to happen) ....enough time to happen. (common sense).

 

[AlphaZealot]

Just because a player has honed his technical abilities to an impressive level and manages to beat Azen or Ken despite not being as smart as them

This never happened.

And, I'm also confused, I wasn't asserting either games dominance over the other, merely pointing out the numerous flaws in oft touted anti-Brawl arguments. And at current, of course Melee requires more thought then Brawl, but we can't discount Brawls possible progression for reasons like "ZOMG NO HIT STUN!".

 

[x9whitey9x]

I'm one of those low to mid-level Melee smashers, but I couldn't get higher due to all of the wavedashing and L-cancelling which I never really heard about until early this year.

Excellent post.

 

[Jack Kieser]

This never happened.

And, I'm also confused, I wasn't asserting either games dominance over the other, merely pointing out the numerous flaws in oft touted anti-Brawl arguments. And at current, of course Melee requires more thought then Brawl, but we can't discount Brawls possible progression for reasons like "ZOMG NO HIT STUN!".

I thought you weren't trying to say one was more conductive to thinking than the other, but I didn't want to say anything just in case I had misinterpreted something.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

I enjoy your posts as always, AZ. Especially since you and I both like to gear our arguments towards Chess

 

[SynikaL]

Alpha, you're quoting yourself in that post.

This never happened.

Never said it did. My point, was that Melee has consistently shown us that the smarter player consistently prevails. The sentiments about Melee's technical barrier in relation to Brawl is much ado about nothing.

And now that I think about it, didn't M2K beat Ken at EVO West? Considering M2K's reputation as the epitomical "controller monkey" and Ken being the "Mindgame King" there's the necessary anecdote.

And, I'm also confused, I wasn't asserting either games dominance over the other, merely pointing out the numerous flaws in oft touted anti-Brawl arguments.

I'll admit that most of my post is derived from inferences, but I feel the implications are clear enough:

By removing the technical barrier that existed in Melee Sakurai made the deeper concepts of strategy more readily available to everyone. This is a good thing as it provides more players the opportunity to actually think during a match instead of being outplayed simply because they can’t keep up with the higher technical ability of their opponent. Having a larger pool of players who can develop strategies quickens the evolution of the metagame to deeper levels, it’s a numbers game. It’s the strategies and counter strategies that players will learn how to perform and how to get around that will build the depth of Brawl.

-Syn