The BlazBlue Thread: all the imports!

[Zero_Gamer]

As a training mode junkie, I find the memorization very soothing and addictive.

 

[Lythium]

Also a member of training mode junkies.

Word.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I have such poor memory, it was an ordeal just to remember how to do specials.

Never mind memorizing myriads of combos or entire new alphabets.

 

[Crusayer]

Yeah but in training mode you end up practicing the same line over and over and over. Takes you probably a week to have it imprinted in your mind since you already know all the moves anyway. It's just a matter of order. And even then, once you understand how the hitstun works, you just simply know what to do after it.

I dunno about you guys but I don't even go out to "memorize" combos. I just practice.

(Now memorizing frame data, that's pretty hard lol)

 

[Rutger]

I've never memorized frame data, not even when I was working with the stuff(but that was Brawl, and I never truly liked that game so...)

It's probably something I should do, at least for some things. :/

 

[Minato]

I dunno about you guys but I don't even go out to "memorize" combos. I just practice.

Same. I just practice it in training over and over and then I finally "memorize" what I just did.

I've never memorized frame data, not even when I was working with the stuff(but that was Brawl, and I never truly liked that game so...)

It's probably something I should do, at least for some things. :/

I look at frame data but I haven't memorized the exact numbers. I basically look at which is good/bad and which has frame advantage/disadvantage.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I just have a hierarchy in my head of "these moves are faster than these are faster than these" sort of thing going on.

 

[Gates]

Yeah, frame data is generally not especially important in games other than SF, KoF, and Tekken where frame traps are possible and consistent. In BB you can just IB to get more frame advantage after blocking something (or burst if you're really desperate...and stupid).

 

[Meru.]

I love Japanese and Chinese! I'd like to get a bachelor degree in both of them next year but I'm afraid that will be way too hard and I would still like to have a social life beside my studies... I will likely have to choose. Dx

<3 languages.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, frame data is generally not especially important in games other than SF, KoF, and Tekken where frame traps are possible and consistent. In BB you can just IB to get more frame advantage after blocking something (or burst if you're really desperate...and stupid).

What... Frame traps happen all the time in BB.
Some characters even specifically rely on them.

 

[Wave⁂]

Characters who rely on frame traps? Are you sure you don't mean combos and setups that rely on frame traps?

 

[Spelt]

how would a combo rely on a frame trap?

 

[Wave⁂]

I was thinking if the combo starter was hard to land outside of a frame trap.

 

[Gates]

What... Frame traps happen all the time in BB.
Some characters even specifically rely on them.

Well you're right, there are characters who use frame traps, like Valkenhayn's 6B, Bang's D nails, and Lambda's sickle cell oki as well as some stuff for character specific matchups.

But I'd hardly say it happens "all the time". If frame traps happen in BB "all the time" then Tekken would be nothing but frame traps and wavedashing.

I wasn't saying they didn't exist or didn't happen, I was saying that they happened less compared to those other games.

 

[Crusayer]

Frame traps are attacks that give the impression that you can do something but you actually can't due to frame advantage right? I never really properly understood what "frame traps" are unless I'm actually right.

 

[Gates]

God ****ing dammit, I had a long post explaining what a frame trap was and then all my tabs somehow refreshed and it died.

Reserved.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Yeah, I think that's what it means. I kinda have trouble with things like that. Like, I know a bunch of the Frame Data startup numbers, some combos purely off memory, and can sometimes see the "move matrix" as I call it, but...I've come to find knowing all the info in the world is useless if you're unable to apply it all. If I could, I'd be 10x the player I am now.

Oh, and also, I've come to find that it's incredibly fun doing low air dash j.A mash>5A mash>throw against Tagers with Noel to troll them. And also that especially online 80% of the ones I've played don't expect it because they expect you to like, respect the 360 and 720, or for you to go for a combo starter after, so they just fall for it, lol.

 

[Gates]

God ****ing dammit, I had a long post explaining what a frame trap was and then all my tabs somehow refreshed and it died.

Each move puts a blocking opponent in a certain amount of frames of blockstun where the opponent can't do anything. This is called blockstun and it lasts for different amounts of time depending on different properties of the move used. But blockstun is independent of how long each move's recovery frames. This leads to a discrepancy between the two where there are a certain number of frames of nothing happening where either the attacker can do something (this is called frame advantage) or the defender can do something (frame disadvantage) before the other. Frame advantage is found by subtracting the recovery of the move used from the amount of blockstun the opponent is put in.

blockstun - recovery = frame advantage

ex. 1: Ragna 5B
9 - 16 = -7

Ragna's 5B alone is at a disadvantage, as many characters will be able to jab him to confirm into a combo before he can do anything besides block. Ragna's 5B is still a good tool because of its range but because it's at such a disadvantage you'll probably never see it be the last move in a blockstring. Most players cancel into Hell's Fang or Dead Spike to make it safe.

ex. 2: Hazama 5B
14 - 12 = +2

Hazama's 5B is pretty safe on block since it leaves him at an advantage, if only slightly. Some characters will still have moves that are fast enough to hit him before he can do anything significant, but at the very least this move is safe enough that he'd be able to block it.

ex. 3: Bang 5A
9 - 9 = +0

Technically, neither player is at an advantage or disadvantage here. However, if the opponent has a move faster than any of Bang's moves, they will beat him out.

A frame trap is a move that has a very significant frame advantage that would allow the opponent to do something to the opponent without fear of being punished.

ex. 4: Valkenhayn human 6B
17 - 9 = +8

Valkenhayn's 6B is silly. With 8 frames on block to do whatever he wants, he can do 5A, 5B, 2A, 2B, 6A, or throw before the opponent can do anything significant. On some characters he can even do more than that, sometimes having enough time to transform.

There's also this to explain frame traps in more depth:
http://sf4answers.com/questions/206/what-are-frame-traps

Justin Wong also had an article on SRK about 15 months ago where he did a good job of explaining frame traps but I can't find it anymore.

 

[Wave⁂]

What move gives the most frame advantage, outside of supers? I'd guess it's one of Tager's moves?

 

[Spelt]

Well you're right, there are characters who use frame traps, like Valkenhayn's 6B, Bang's D nails, and Lambda's sickle cell oki as well as some stuff for character specific matchups.

But I'd hardly say it happens "all the time". If frame traps happen in BB "all the time" then Tekken would be nothing but frame traps and wavedashing.

I wasn't saying they didn't exist or didn't happen, I was saying that they happened less compared to those other games.

But they do happen all the time. Maybe not as much as tekken, I don't really care about that game so I wouldn't know, but they do.

If you don't think they happen all of then i'm guessing you have never fought a good hakumen.

And besides that, every character has a way to use frame traps. Japanese players use them all of the time. Mainly with stagger 5a/2a pressure, but usually characters have other specific methods for frame trapping as well. Jin's do it mostly with 5b, 6b, and 2d, etc.

A frame trap is a move that has a very significant frame advantage that would allow the opponent to do something to the opponent without fear of being punished.

Not necessarily.

A frame trap can leave you at even or even slightly minus on block depending on what you're trying to do. During a frame trap you want the opponent to try to punish you, that's the whole reason for doing them. But what you want to do is have your attack come out faster than theirs resulting in a counterhit.

Example:

I use jin's 5b, which is even on block. The opponent tries to use their 5b to punish, which let's say has 9 frame startup. I can use 5a/2a/5b/grab to beat it out and lead to a counterhit combo.

If I think they're gonna use a 5a to try and punish, which we'll say is 6 frames, I can grab and beat the jab out. etc.

 

[Gates]

If you don't think they happen all of then i'm guessing you have never fought a good hakumen.

No, I haven't.

And honestly what Hakumen does borders more on zoning and spacing than just frame traps. Frame traps are kind of a more aggressive thing, like something you'd do during a blockstring. Hakumen's pokes aren't quite the same. That's more like keeping the opponent at a safe distance (zoning) or fishing for a hit confirm. I mean yeah, you can get a counterhit if your opponent tries to hit you after blocking a full distance 5C, but if they don't realize that they probably can't punish from that far anyway then they'd be free no matter what.

Not necessarily.

A frame trap can leave you at even or even slightly minus on block depending on what you're trying to do. During a frame trap you want the opponent to try to punish you, that's the whole reason for doing them. But what you want to do is have your attack come out faster than theirs resulting in a counterhit.

Example:

I use jin's 5b, which is even on block. The opponent tries to use their 5b to punish, which let's say has 9 frame startup. I can use 5a/2a/5b/grab to beat it out and lead to a counterhit combo.

If I think they're gonna use a 5a to try and punish, which we'll say is 6 frames, I can grab and beat the jab out. etc.

I know, I was just trying to explain the basics to people who didn't understand it at all. When explaining things to people you need to take baby steps.

 

[Spelt]

And honestly what Hakumen does borders more on zoning and spacing than just frame traps. Frame traps are kind of a more aggressive thing, like something you'd do during a blockstring. Hakumen's pokes aren't quite the same. That's more like keeping the opponent at a safe distance (zoning) or fishing for a hit confirm. I mean yeah, you can get a counterhit if your opponent tries to hit you after blocking a full distance 5C, but if they don't realize that they probably can't punish from that far anyway then they'd be free no matter what.

That's not what I was talking about though.
I know what zoning is.

Once he gets in, Hakumen still has legitimate shield pressure, and 99% of it is frame traps. 5a/2a/6a all have frame advantage, as well as gurren, plus 5b is even. Since his normals don't gatling, he relies on his frame advantage to be able to poke the opponent out. I cannot count how many times i've been CH trying to punish him for something.

 

[Gates]

Oh, that.

Now that I look at the data, yeah, Hakumen's 5A and 2A are really fast.

 

[Crusayer]

So yeah, I guess my line was the gist of it then xd. Thanks for the extra info guys.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Frame traps? On Hakumen? Hahahahahhahahaha

More like, "I'mma try to do one or two things, woops, I'm pushed too far now."

 

[LivewiresXe]

Yeah, Hakumen aka "what hit stun?", lol.

 

[Gates]

Frame traps? On Hakumen? Hahahahahhahahaha

More like, "I'mma try to do one or two things, woops, I'm pushed too far now."

This is basically what I was trying to say.

It's like playing MvC3 and getting pushblocked, only fun.

 

[Spelt]

Frame traps? On Hakumen? Hahahahahhahahaha

More like, "I'mma try to do one or two things, woops, I'm pushed too far now."

With? Hakumen?

6a.



It's like i'm the only one on this thread who has faced a good Hakumen.

 

[Gates]

Apparently.

Bad Hakumens are everywhere. Good Hakumen are rare though.

 

[Spelt]

Yeah, he does have a pretty steep learning curve compared to other characters.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Yeah, no kidding, I tried taking him up as a secondary a while back, didn't work out.

Hell, my "former secondaries" list is looking like:

Ragna
Jin
Litchi
Hakumen

with my "current potentials" being:

Makoto
Lambda
Mu
Arakune
Platinum


Anyway, thing on Hakumen I think, is that you kinda have to know the Hakumen vs match up much better and more inside and out than most other character's have to know the "character vs" matchups do.

 

[Lythium]

Hakumen is, like, middle of the learning curve imo. Except for his better combos, he's not that difficult, and his normals are really good. You just have to be patient. And have good meter management.

I agree that good Hakumen players are rare though. I've only ever played against one, I believe.

Anyway, thing on Hakumen I think, is that you kinda have to know the Hakumen vs match up much better and more inside and out than most other character's have to know the "character vs" matchups do.

I think that depends on the character too. Hakumen, for sure, I agree. But I also think that Carl, Arakune, Mu, and Rachel have to know their match-ups exceptionally well too. And Tager, to a certain extent.

 

[LivewiresXe]

Well, I'd imagine Mu's playstyle changes entirely if she's against a rushdown character as opposed to another zoner, and Arakune has to pray to get lucky if he's against Lambda.

Though, while Hakumen's looking at about 30 different possibilities in the player's thought process, Tager tends to just wonder whether to go Spark Bolt into Atomic Collider or 360. Or, that could just be online.

 

[Lythium]

Well, I'm talking ideally here, so not netplay.

 

[Thino]

Though, while Hakumen's looking at about 30 different possibilities in the player's thought process,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kHKjPhEZIM&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s

 

[LivewiresXe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kHKjPhEZIM&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s

Ow....that...that just hurts, lol.

 

[Gates]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kHKjPhEZIM&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s

pro strats

 

[Lythium]

Now make a Noel stomp one and it'll be perfect.

Also, reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO0jjwIUsMk

 

[Gates]

Now make a Noel stomp one and it'll be perfect.

Also, reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO0jjwIUsMk

Reminds me of Arakune's corner trap in CT.

Oh CT Arakune, you were so derpy.

 

[arturefo]

Now make a Noel stomp one and it'll be perfect.

Also, reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO0jjwIUsMk

i cant belive this.huehuehu.