The "best" players

[Luma]

wow people really already forgot about amsah? o.O
1. Mango
2. HBox
3. Armada
4./5. M2K/Amsah

m2k is kinda saying alot that he will play brawl only, amsah hasnt been to a top-tournament in a couple month, lets see how this turns out

after that, 6.-20. is open, esp since there are a lot of good players who cant compete with the other top players at every tournament, but top contenders for top10 are people like PP Jman etc

 

[X1-12]

wow people really already forgot about amsah? o.O
1. Mango
2. HBox
3. Armada
4./5. M2K/Amsah

m2k is kinda saying alot that he will play brawl only, amsah hasnt been to a top-tournament in a couple month, lets see how this turns out

after that, 6.-20. is open, esp since there are a lot of good players who cant compete with the other top players at every tournament, but top contenders for top10 are people like PP Jman etc

maybe check that guys location lol

 

[strawhats]

oh ****, i cant believe i forgot about brother Amsah...i'd like to see how he does at Pound 5. Im actually going so(i'd like to play him for myself as well)

I think Amsah is one of the few people in my mind that could very well solidify his name as a top 5 in the world player (just wish he wasn't so inconsistent against fox players). Also i'd like to see him and m2k fight it out in a tourney set (and not sheik dittos that ****s gay, marth/fox vs. sheik)

BTW... whats this about Cambodian Young link players. I've never heard about them before. (just goes to show that the world of melee and the metagame continues to evolve.

I'd love to see how the Mexican twins, Dark, Mach Dash, Calle W, and a couple of additional European names come to America. Star still plays?!

 

[GOD!]

Yeah I heard there was that one cambodian yl player who was super good. I forgot what his name was.. flow something? idk..

I still dont think hbox is 2nd best though. I want to see him play a good fox in tourney who plays gay and knows the match up. I wanna see jman vs hbox. That herb 2 set was pretty close honestly. They've both gotten better, but jman plays a lot gayer now. M2k can **** a good fox, I feel like jman could **** a good puff. If jman had run into hbox at apex... idk. He did beat mangos puff at winterfest. And mangos puff> hbox puff. So its not watertight, but I think a good fox main who knows the match up and plays it like a ***** could beat hbox.
(also why do some foxes throw out desperate usmashes against puff when shes at ko percentage? lol then they get combo *****.. D=)

Cause that matchup is not even.

 

[Luma]

@X1-12
i wasnt talking about mind trick (yoshi <3), but that a lot of people dont mention him even for top10

 

[SSBMLahti]

I believe Kason is a close candidate for top 3.

 

[Archangel]

wow people really already forgot about amsah? o.O
1. Mango
2. HBox
3. Armada
4./5. M2K/Amsah

m2k is kinda saying alot that he will play brawl only, amsah hasnt been to a top-tournament in a couple month, lets see how this turns out

after that, 6.-20. is open, esp since there are a lot of good players who cant compete with the other top players at every tournament, but top contenders for top10 are people like PP Jman etc

I'd say this is probably the most reasonable post on this thread. I happen to have it the same.

I would say spots 6-10 are mainly full of people who are pushin their way into the top 5 and will break in soon. Jman has been at that point for awhile. Then Players like PP and Jman's break performances at tournaments this past year. It's hard not to consider that by this time 2011 at least 1 of them will be in the top 5 knocking someone from their spot.

As for the hypothetic arguments
I don't think people should completely through out theory at least if there is some argument presented. Last time this came up Hbox and Armada were heavily in dispute because they hadn't played. Me and some others suggested Hbox would win based on a few things.

The main reasons being that everything that Mango did that gave Armada hell Hbox does better. He's the best clutch-resting Puff that will ever walk the earth. Mango went aggressive vs Armada and wanted to be entertain and win at the same time(almost cost him). Hbox doesn't care about that stuff. He'll be as patient as he needs to and methodically shut you down even if it takes almost all 8 minutes. That's his style more or less. Given this info a few of us suspected he'd have a field day with Armada and it happened. So If someone presents a reason for a players placement on hypothetic It might not be all that unreasonable. As long is it has some kind of weight to it and isn't only What if scenarios

 

[strawhats]

I'd love to see Armada, Amsah, Zgetto, Calle W,and Zgetto, IVP, Helios, EK, Fuzzy, Ice, Remen, Jeapie, Baxon, Poilon, Aldwyn, Peki, Neutroni, Dev, Professor Pro, Retroking, Fernandez, Clem J, Makenshi, Infernum all come to America and play us in an All out Crew Battle.

adding Dax and Kjab to this list

 

[G.L.]

mango, h box, armada, m2k, (no order after m2k)Dr pp, shiz, jman, lucky, amsah

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'd love to see Armada, Amsah, Zgetto, Calle W,and Zgetto, IVP, Helios, EK, Fuzzy, Ice, Remen, Jeapie, Baxon, Poilon, Aldwyn, Peki, Neutroni, Dev, Professor Pro, Retroking, Fernandez, Clem J, Makenshi, Infernum all come to America and play us in an All out Crew Battle.

how dare you not mention hack, hes better then alot of the players you listed there =(

 

[Luma]

I'd love to see Armada, Amsah, Zgetto, Calle W,and Zgetto, IVP, Helios, EK, Fuzzy, Ice, Remen, Jeapie, Baxon, Poilon, Aldwyn, Peki, Neutroni, Dev, Professor Pro, Retroking, Fernandez, Clem J, Makenshi, Infernum all come to America and play us in an All out Crew Battle.

-helios ek jeapie poilon dev pro retro fernandez clemj

they are either inactive or not that good

 

[strawhats]

yeah...hack is mad legit. I accidently backspaced too much. I had an even longer list.

Also RIP. Nnja.

 

[Archangel]

I'd love to see Armada, Amsah, Zgetto, Calle W,and Zgetto, IVP, Helios, EK, Fuzzy, Ice, Remen, Jeapie, Baxon, Poilon, Aldwyn, Peki, Neutroni, Dev, Professor Pro, Retroking, Fernandez, Clem J, Makenshi, Infernum all come to America and play us in an All out Crew Battle.

That would be a hell of an Event. It would be at least closer then last time. America as a Region is quite broken though. Since a HUGE portion of the top 50 players currently are from America I'm not sure it would be fair. Regionals are better.

 

[t3h Icy]

Yeah I heard there was that one cambodian yl player who was super good. I forgot what his name was.. flow something? idk..

I still dont think hbox is 2nd best though. I want to see him play a good fox in tourney who plays gay and knows the match up. I wanna see jman vs hbox. That herb 2 set was pretty close honestly. They've both gotten better, but jman plays a lot gayer now. M2k can **** a good fox, I feel like jman could **** a good puff. If jman had run into hbox at apex... idk. He did beat mangos puff at winterfest. And mangos puff> hbox puff. So its not watertight, but I think a good fox main who knows the match up and plays it like a ***** could beat hbox.
(also why do some foxes throw out desperate usmashes against puff when shes at ko percentage? lol then they get combo *****.. D=)

Cause that matchup is not even.

I used to think that too, but a month before Apex at No Johns, Jman played Hungrybox in Winner's Finals and Grand Finals. While each match came down to last stock, and most of them at last hit, Hungrybox won 6-0.

Here's the first match if you're interested.

Since Dr.PP can't seem to beat Hungrybox anymore (though he did beat Darc at Apex), I think Mango and Colbol are the only two that can beat Hungrybox. Vanz and Kage were pretty close.

I think Javi vs Hungrybox would be interesting.

 

[Theftz22]

Does Japanese melee still exist?

 

[Iron Dragon]

Yeah I heard there was that one cambodian yl player who was super good. I forgot what his name was.. flow something? idk..

I still dont think hbox is 2nd best though. I want to see him play a good fox in tourney who plays gay and knows the match up. I wanna see jman vs hbox. That herb 2 set was pretty close honestly. They've both gotten better, but jman plays a lot gayer now. M2k can **** a good fox, I feel like jman could **** a good puff. If jman had run into hbox at apex... idk. He did beat mangos puff at winterfest. And mangos puff> hbox puff. So its not watertight, but I think a good fox main who knows the match up and plays it like a ***** could beat hbox.
(also why do some foxes throw out desperate usmashes against puff when shes at ko percentage? lol then they get combo *****.. D=)

Cause that matchup is not even.

Don't be stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rOIbhuJwc that whole WF set and GF.

Also, you guys keep putting Amsah up there in conideration to that he made a nice run through LB at Pound including beating Zhu,Jman and Armada, and I'll admit that's impressive but there's something many of you seem to be forgetting...

He got 2-0ed by LuCKy.

Not to say that Lucky isn't good because he's my favorite Fox player but if Amsah is as good as being able to beat Jman, shouldn't he able to beat Lucky as well(I'm assuming most of you here consider Jman better than Lucky)?

5-20 is a large cluster of players in general. DrPP,Jman,Wobbles,Axe,Amsah,Zhu,DaShizWiz,Lucky,Darkrain,SilentSpectre and some others I'm probably missing.

Throw those players in almost any order you like and you won't get harassed for it. It's all opinions for now.

 

[Archangel]

Don't be stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rOIbhuJwc that whole WF set and GF.

Also, you guys keep putting Amsah up there in conideration to that he made a nice run through LB at Pound including beating Zhu,Jman and Armada, and I'll admit that's impressive but there's something many of you seem to be forgetting...

He got 2-0ed by LuCKy.

Not to say that Lucky isn't good because he's my favorite Fox player but if Amsah is as good as being able to beat Jman, shouldn't he able to beat Lucky as well(I'm assuming most of you here consider Jman better than Lucky)?

5-20 is a large cluster of players in general. DrPP,Jman,Wobbles,Axe,Amsah,Zhu,DaShizWiz,Lucky,Darkrain,SilentSpectre and some others I'm probably missing.

Throw those players in almost any order you like and you won't get harassed for it. It's all opinions for now.

Just because Lucky beat Amsah doesn't exactly mean he's better then Amsah or Amsah sucks. That kind of logic has been around forever though and it's still very much flawed. Lucky has lost to Shroomed who's been JV 4 stocked by SilentSpectre but Lucky has beat Slientspectre before. Armada got ****ed up by SlientSpectre, who was also ****ed up by Zhu but Armada has Beat Zhu. Zhu has beat Mew2King who has beaten Dr.PP who has beaten Zhu.....I can go in a circle like this FOREVER!...

Single Matches don't decide someone's placement in the top 5 and beyond. Sometimes there will simply be 1 player that has your number and will beat you every time. Even if you will always out preform them overall. It is the overall performance that matters the most though. Take Hbox for example. In the absence of a "Serious" Mango he's functionally number 1 pound 4 pound, Undisputed...whatever. However according to the same logic applied to Amsah he isn't good because he usually loses to Colbol. Does that make any sense? Of course it doesn't.

On another note anyone know if some of the other internationals like IVP, Calle W...etc plan to come to Pound5?

 

[hungrybox]

Yeah I heard there was that one cambodian yl player who was super good. I forgot what his name was.. flow something? idk..

I still dont think hbox is 2nd best though. I want to see him play a good fox in tourney who plays gay and knows the match up. I wanna see jman vs hbox. That herb 2 set was pretty close honestly. They've both gotten better, but jman plays a lot gayer now. M2k can **** a good fox, I feel like jman could **** a good puff. If jman had run into hbox at apex... idk. He did beat mangos puff at winterfest. And mangos puff> hbox puff. So its not watertight, but I think a good fox main who knows the match up and plays it like a ***** could beat hbox.
(also why do some foxes throw out desperate usmashes against puff when shes at ko percentage? lol then they get combo *****.. D=)

Cause that matchup is not even.

I 6-0'd jman at NoJohns a month before apex

 

[Iron Dragon]

Just because Lucky beat Amsah doesn't exactly mean he's better then Amsah or Amsah sucks. That kind of logic has been around forever though and it's still very much flawed. Lucky has lost to Shroomed who's been JV 4 stocked by SilentSpectre but Lucky has beat Slientspectre before. Armada got ****ed up by SlientSpectre, who was also ****ed up by Zhu but Armada has Beat Zhu. Zhu has beat Mew2King who has beaten Dr.PP who has beaten Zhu.....I can go in a circle like this FOREVER!...

Single Matches don't decide someone's placement in the top 5 and beyond. Sometimes there will simply be 1 player that has your number and will beat you every time. Even if you will always out preform them overall. It is the overall performance that matters the most though. Take Hbox for example. In the absence of a "Serious" Mango he's functionally number 1 pound 4 pound, Undisputed...whatever. However according to the same logic applied to Amsah he isn't good because he usually loses to Colbol. Does that make any sense? Of course it doesn't.

On another note anyone know if some of the other internationals like IVP, Calle W...etc plan to come to Pound5?

All you're doing is helping to prove my point. I'm trying to point out to people that you can't decide where Amsah falls based on one single tournament. People placing him higher than M2K or right there tied. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. Do we really know though? Are you going to base Amsah's information and skill as a player off of ONE single tournament? Hopefully not.

 

[Rubyiris]

Arizona tier:

Arizona

Negligable tier:

Everyone else.

 

[Archangel]

All you're doing is helping to prove my point. I'm trying to point out to people that you can't decide where Amsah falls based on one single tournament. People placing him higher than M2K or right there tied. Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. Do we really know though? Are you going to base Amsah's information and skill as a player off of ONE single tournament? Hopefully not.

There is a word for this, It's called Bigotry. This might be news to you but America isn't the only place that holds tournaments. Based on Prior and Post Pound 4 Performances Amsah is at least as good as M2K. I wouldn't say higher but at least as good. They played and were about even. Based on Common opponents they are about even. Amsah has consistently barely loses to Armada. Given time to adjust to American Playstyle and setting I think he would still Consistently Place top 3-5 depending on how many puff's he ran into.

 

[Iron Dragon]

There is a word for this, It's called Bigotry. This might be news to you but America isn't the only place that holds tournaments. Based on Prior and Post Pound 4 Performances Amsah is at least as good as M2K. I wouldn't say higher but at least as good. They played and were about even. Based on Common opponents they are about even. Amsah has consistently barely loses to Armada. Given time to adjust to American Playstyle and setting I think he would still Consistently Place top 3-5 depending on how many puff's he ran into.

Yes because it's bigotry when we're deciding a player from another country on a list of players that's mostly US.

How can you decide that Amsah is as good as M2K when there's only been one tournament that they've been at at the same time to have a chance to even PLAY the same people? You're not making ANY sense LOL.

 

[Rubyiris]

spam arrows, how do you live with yourself being so bad/stupid? <3

 

[Luma]

arrows dont get trolled here, amsah and armada went over there (armada even 3 times now) i ****ing proved their skill, maybe now its time to see how some of the US pros would play if they went against europeans IN europe....

but hey like that will ever happen....

 

[JPOBS]

for good reason?

he's probably top 10 in the world :/

and before we get into discussion about "only cuz of wobbling"...seriously, watch this guy in tournies like Intimikill where he doesnt use wobbling, he has so many ******** grab mixups that a grab = death almost garunteed regardless.

Imo he's better than the majority of people commonly listed after the top 3-4.

 

[Iron Dragon]

arrows dont get trolled here, amsah and armada went over there (armada even 3 times now) i ****ing proved their skill, maybe now its time to see how some of the US pros would play if they went against europeans IN europe....

but hey like that will ever happen....

You're pointing out what I said. That Armada went 3 times, he has definitely proven himself. Amsah has went once. We should get more information before we gather that he's FOR SURE in the top 4 players. What we CAN at least infer though is that he is very good. However as said, Jman may want revenge and could beat him, PP has gotten really good and might beat him, etc. Things change, you can't base him coming to a tournament 9 months ago of his EXACT skill in comparison to our players now.

Also, I would think that with Amsah coming over here and with Sheik getting BUFFED and all with her throw being better that if anything he would have an EASIER time, but hey everyone is different I guess.

I also never said Americans shouldn't go to Europe. Hasn't hbox said stuff about wanting to go out there anyways? lol.

 

[Iron Dragon]

he's probably top 10 in the world :/

and before we get into discussion about "only cuz of wobbling"...seriously, watch this guy in tournies like Intimikill where he doesnt use wobbling, he has so many ******** grab mixups that a grab = death almost garunteed regardless.

Imo he's better than the majority of people commonly listed after the top 3-4.

Double post just to say that I love you for liking Wobbles. I <3 his ICs so much ^__^

 

[JPOBS]

I just dont like the fact that Wobbles is left of of lists that span 6-20

People go around throwing out names like darkrain, Axe, Hax, Lucky, zhu etc etc, and while those guys are all undeniably REALLY good, i think Wobbles deserves to be mentioned with them.

He has ether directly beat many of those aforementioned pros in tournament, or has beat people that are on that same level.

Yet people brush it off as "lol wobbling" without realizing that his none-wobbling chaingrabs are just as deadly (albeit way more interesting to watch)

the only thing holding people back is cuz wobbles hasnt been to many of the largest tournies. Unless im mistaken, he didnt attend pound 4 or genesis. But he did amazing at Apex, and lets face it, Apex pretty much single handidly boosted Axe's portfolio as a player, yet Wobbles, who got the SAME PLACING gets disrespected. Similar to the Amsah scenario. stupid community is stupid

P.s. No disrespect to any of the players listed in this post, they are all mad good obviously.

 

[Luma]

i did not try to say that you said that americans wouldnt travel overseas (gay sentence lol), it just never happenend that one of your top players went over, the best was oro so far i think back in 2006 or something

i was not talking about the versions either when i said thet americans will have a hard time here, its just a proven fact that playing in your region (esp with all the cheering and stuff) boosts your performance

and why is it only possible to prove themselfs in the us? did you ever watch any vids coming from europe?

 

[Iron Dragon]

i did not try to say that you said that americans wouldnt travel overseas (gay sentence lol), it just never happenend that one of your top players went over, the best was oro so far i think back in 2006 or something

i was not talking about the versions either when i said thet americans will have a hard time here, its just a proven fact that playing in your region (esp with all the cheering and stuff) boosts your performance

and why is it only possible to prove themselfs in the us? did you ever watch any vids coming from europe?

Oh the region thing. Yeah I definitely get you on that part.

And the only reason I'm saying their best way to prove themselves over here is because when you have a list of players who most people list that comes from a specific area such as most the players on these "best" lists being Americans and not many Europeans, don't you think the best way to see how the Europeans stack up to Americans is IN America?

Unless of course you disagree with who is the best in the world of these lists and think other Europeans are better than some of the top American players?

 

[Luma]

no its def true that america does have more top players, just saying you cant prove yourself to be a good player when you arent playing american pros is stupid
AND
that i highly doubt that all of those us pros could prove theirselfs over here

 

[FoxLisk]

wobbles is definitely in the 6-20 range, but he is definitely not a contender for 5.

amsah is almost definitely a contender for 5 and a serious challenge to m2k/armada, although again i would like to see those matches.

and to whoever said it: no, i dont consider jman to be 'better' than lucky. maybe over all matchups he is slightly better, but i think their skill levels are very similar, their playstyles dramatically different, and their matchups this different. if i had to pick someone to beat a CF, for example, i would choose jman because his vs. cf game is inspirational, but against a falco lucky has a lot more experience and confidence. i think they're close enough that it comes down to matchup and thus, your argument, while already fundamentally flawed, fails even if we accept your unstated premise.

 

[Iron Dragon]

no its def true that america does have more top players, just saying you cant prove yourself to be a good player when you arent playing american pros is stupid
AND
that i highly doubt that all of those us pros could prove theirselfs over here

I didn't mean to get general with Europeans proving themselves I was more so referring to what Spam_arrows was talking about and his specific example of Amsah and how he compares to Mew2King.

I never said they can't be the best either but when people try putting Calle W ahead of American players on a list with people he's never even PLAYED, I don't understand that.

 

[Iron Dragon]

wobbles is definitely in the 6-20 range, but he is definitely not a contender for 5.

amsah is almost definitely a contender for 5 and a serious challenge to m2k/armada, although again i would like to see those matches.

and to whoever said it: no, i dont consider jman to be 'better' than lucky. maybe over all matchups he is slightly better, but i think their skill levels are very similar, their playstyles dramatically different, and their matchups this different. if i had to pick someone to beat a CF, for example, i would choose jman because his vs. cf game is inspirational, but against a falco lucky has a lot more experience and confidence. i think they're close enough that it comes down to matchup and thus, your argument, while already fundamentally flawed, fails even if we accept your unstated premise.

Actually you'd be surprised how many people would take Lucky's CF game over Jman's and Jman's Falco game over Lucky's, it just depends.

And so you're one person who thinks Jman isn't better than Lucky. My statement/example was meant to be on a general level of what people consider. You can say you disagree and that you think Lucky = Jman all you want on here but how do I even know you didn't just change your mind at the last minute in a way to prove me wrong?

Once again I don't see how Amsah beating some of our best 9 months ago means that he'd be able to do the same thing today. Not to mention he didn't play some of our really good players who have gotten beast and may be 5th best aka DR. PEEPEE. Who knows if Amsah knows enough about ICs to beat Wobbles? Or that Jman couldn't take him down next time he came?

Too much WHAT IF'S and DID's in this thread and not enough HAS CONSISTENTLY DONE.

 

[strawhats]

I doubt Amsah could beat chu's climbers much less wobbles...no disrespect of course. Chu and wobbles just **** that MU and i don't think Amsah has any climbers experience beyond possibly smasher89

 

[Rubyiris]

Wobbles lost to Rayku.

Care to revisit that argument?

 

[Iron Dragon]

Wobbles lost to Rayku.

Care to revisit that argument?

LMAO shut up that was down to last hit and wobbles should have won imo, i just watched the set.

 

[strawhats]

the point is wobbles is a problem against sheik and amsah says that their are certain MU's and characters that he rarely plays against...thus his poor performance against hbox(who simply ***** sheik and for now is considered the better player).

I dont know if wobbles would be considered the better player in that situation whereas amsah might notknow the MU. We'd have to see them play(same with chu vs. amsah) the ony matches i saw them fight each other in was in teams chu/vidjo vs. amsah/adam.

 

[JPOBS]

how did this turn into a wobbles vs amsah debate?

All i said was that wobbles is underrated despite having the same kind of tourny performance as amsah has had (in the US).

idgaf who would win in a direct matchup between them

 

[Theftz22]

Does Japanese melee still exist?

Seriously top Japanese players were about in the same position as Europe is right now back in 06-07 in comparison to the US. I'd love to know if there's still a Japanese melee scene, especially if people like Captain Jack and Bombsoldier still play...