The Battle for Power! (Matchmaking & Video Thread)

[HeavyLobster]

From my own experiences with customs, it's important for the custom meta to learn both Wizkick and Dropkick, as both are tools you'll want in different matchups. Most of the time I practice with 1121 Ganon, who's the viable custom set closest to default. I still probably need more work with Dropkick to get the most out of it. I understand why you'd be reluctant to change after investing so much time into default, but at least Dark Fists is something worth practicing, as while it does alter how you want to pattern your recovery and gives you another kill option onstage, I find that alternating between it and Dark Dive doesn't throw me off too much, though it did for a bit at first. Wizkick vs. Dropkick definitely does mess with me more, though, and does feel more playstyle-altering overall, as it affects all aspects of Ganon's game to some extent, while with DF vs. DD you can do just fine without changing much of anything except your recovery and feel an upgrade. Getting the most out of DF does require learning when you can pull it out in other situations too, but you can still use it without having fully mastered such situations and still do better than with DD. Wizkick vs. Dropkick is a trickier situation, so holding off on pulling Dropkick out makes more sense.

 

[Vermanubis]

Dittos, anyone?

 

[Blobface]

Yeah, I agree with A2. Wizkick is better than Dropkick in a lot of matchups. For the most part, Dropkick is for matchups where A) recovering against this character is an issue and B) Wizkick isn't as important to have for one reason or another. While Dark Fists can work against juggles, it's nowhere near as good as Wizkick, and Wizkick is also better for punishing due to its lower startup.

What Ganon really gets out of customs is the ability to force his opponent to play "honest", to prevent them from skewing his risk:reward like all his bad matchups do.

• Dropkick + Dark Fists prevent low % gimps that would otherwise nullify his survivability, an essential part of his reward
  
• Dark Fists' super armor prevents characters from getting extensively long chains on Ganondorf that would otherwise nullify his reward on hit (by comparison)
• Dark Fists' super armor also counters normally safe aerial approaches/defenses that would otherwise make approaching Ganon not risky enough/force Ganon to take unnecessary risks when approaching.

Unless you need to survive gimps/deal with certain projectiles (Wizkick might even be better for this), Dropkick is usually not as good as Wizkick.

@ Vermanubis I can maybe play later tonight, though I won't be able to for very long. We can do customs off if you want.

 

[Vermanubis]

@ Blobface Sounds fine by me. When did you have in mind? And we can do customs. Whatever you feel at your best with is okay by me.

Edit: I'll be back around 10 or so if you're down then.

 

[Blobface]

@ Blobface Sounds fine by me. When did you have in mind? And we can do customs. Whatever you feel at your best with is okay by me.

Edit: I'll be back around 10 or so if you're down then.

Oh, I won't be able to then. I have work early next morning and 10:00 your time is 12:00 here. Sorry about that!

 

[Opana]

I've also been on the fence about putting in too much time to customs tbh, partly why I chose not to use them in the mirrors I've had lately(I don't have enough experience.). In all honesty, Dark Dive is my favorite recovery still, I always stretch it to it's max potential and that tiny bit of distance, as silly as it sounds, drastically affects my edge guarding. On a less important note, I can't effectively chase with DF an airborne opponent, and like the option. I usually don't have issues breaking out of combos and strings as I di away and use Uair. I like WDK more for it's ability to gimp rather than recovery, I never have large enough issues to actually make me use it to recover. Almost forgot, I like using WDK to deal with campers to an extent, although in many cases it seems like it can be shielded unless we make the effort to get into a range in which they can't shield. Overall the only move that I'd change atm is Warlock Punch to Blade, as at least that has a use even if situational.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dark Fists gets the exact same vertical distance as Dark Dive. It actually gets very slightly more horizontal distance due to how its animation works, which combined with the armor frames, makes it generally the superior recovery move.

I would really only use Dark Dive against DDD, where grabbing him out of his Up-B is actually very useful.

 

[jmanup85]

If anyone wants to have a go at it I should be able to

 

[Opana]

Well maybe I just need to adjust because I sd doing what I'd normally do for some reason.

Also, @ Ray_Kalm your advice is working out well, thanks.

 

[Blobface]

Anyone up for dittos some time tonight? Customs on or off, doesn't matter to me.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'll probably be around. What time?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anyone up for dittos some time tonight? Customs on or off, doesn't matter to me.

I added you on the Wii-U. We should play sometime tonight or tomorrow. If you're around say 8:30 PM PST tonight, I'd like to play you.

 

[Blobface]

10:30? I can do it @ A2ZOMG @ Vermanubis , and since you both use 3DS, couldn't we all join one room and one person just SD's at the beginning of the match?

 

[A2ZOMG]

10:30? I can do it @ A2ZOMG @ Vermanubis , and since you both use 3DS, couldn't we all join one room and one person just SD's at the beginning of the match?

I do not have a 3DS, unfortunately.

 

[Gunblade789]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilfK83OndGY

Myself vs Jtails. I lost this set but had fun. I also need to nair more. lol.

 

[Vermanubis]

10:30 your time, @ Blobface ?

 

[A2ZOMG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilfK83OndGY

Myself vs Jtails. I lost this set but had fun. I also need to nair more. lol.

Did you know you can Wizkick over PK Fire? And yeah, especially against Ness, I would definitely recommend more N-airs, given you can trade with any of his aerials favorably if you space it right. Against Ness you shouldn't be afraid to edgeguard him, but at the same time you want to be able to condition him into either airdodging predictably or losing an exchange against your U-air. Furthermore with good timing, you can reliably tipman U-air him out of his PKT2.

Not sure what to recommend against Diddy, outside of knowing when to pick up items with the Z button. Jtails is really solid.

 

[Blobface]

10:30 my time sounds good, though that's about 5 minutes from now @ Vermanubis

 

[Vermanubis]

Alrighty. You good? I'll go host.

@ Blobface

 

[Blobface]

@ Vermanubis Sorry, wasn't paying attention to smashboards. I'm ready now.

 

[Vermanubis]

No sweat. Room's up.

 

[Blobface]

@ Vermanubis one second, one of my sets has flame wave for some unfathomable reason. I'll be right back in

 

[Vermanubis]

Few more, then I have to split. GGs, Blob!

 

[Blobface]

GGs, Verm! You easily have the best ledge play of any Ganon I've seen. That F-air offstage to onstage B-air caught me completely off guard. On a side note, do you know if Dark Fists is guaranteed trumpable on shield if they don't cancel the lag into a ledgegrab?

I can safely say Wizkick is better in every matchup where recovery is a priority over having a burst movement option that beats dodges. In our last matches where I used Dropkick, I mostly used it only for recovery. In these matches I could actually use it offensively. Those 4 frames of extra startup are a surprisingly big deal, as is the loss of a juggle option. Dropkick is better against Ganondorf though since he has so much horizontal knockback on his moves.

I still don't know why I had Flame Wave equipped on that set.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Blobface would you like to play tomorrow? Almost any time tomorrow works for me, including morning and most of the afternoon.

 

[Blobface]

@ A2ZOMG I'm free all day tomorrow too, so just post here when you're up for it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG I'm free all day tomorrow too, so just post here when you're up for it.

How about either 6AM or 2PM PST? I think those times would be preferred on my end.

 

[Blobface]

How about either 6AM or 2PM PST? I think those times would be preferred on my end.

2 PM sounds good for me

 

[Vermanubis]

GGs, Verm! You easily have the best ledge play of any Ganon I've seen. That F-air offstage to onstage B-air caught me completely off guard. On a side note, do you know if Dark Fists is guaranteed trumpable on shield if they don't cancel the lag into a ledgegrab?

I can safely say Wizkick is better in every matchup where recovery is a priority over having a burst movement option that beats dodges. In our last matches where I used Dropkick, I mostly used it only for recovery. In these matches I could actually use it offensively. Those 4 frames of extra startup are a surprisingly big deal, as is the loss of a juggle option. Dropkick is better against Ganondorf though since he has so much horizontal knockback on his moves.

I still don't know why I had Flame Wave equipped on that set.

Thanks, Blob. I think you have a strength with similar roots: positioning. You don't easily fall for traps, and you rarely put yourself in bad positions. Getting follow-ups on you's tough, and I find it harder to manipulate your movement patterns as than I do a lot of others'.

As for trumping DF, I'm actually not sure -- that's a very good question. I don't think it is if you buffer a get-up, but it does put Ganon in an awkward spot, since the PS hitlag gives him leeway to get to the ledge quicker.

And yeah, I tried WDK out a few times since the other night, and my use thereof was exclusively recovery, and I missed a lot of opportunities I'dve otherwise had with wizkick. Still a great feeling to know you can extend your maximum longevity with it, but the offensive potential lost is certainly something to be missed.

 

[Blobface]

Dropkick + Dark Fists is utterly amazing against Rosalina and Sheik though. Once they lose their gimping, the difference in kill power becomes very very apparent. Against Sheik Ganon can literally kill Sheik over 100% earlier than she'll kill him. They're probably Ganon's most improved matchups with customs.

 

[Vermanubis]

Absolutely! I intend to use WDK in the customs tourney I'm going to later this month against the Villager/Rosa I come up against in bracket. Last tournament I went to, my undoing was obscenely early Villager gimps. With that nullified, I'll have very little to worry about.

I'm not fooling anyone, I'm probably going to be too stubborn to go custom. =P

 

[A2ZOMG]

Absolutely! I intend to use WDK in the customs tourney I'm going to later this month against the Villager/Rosa I come up against in bracket. Last tournament I went to, my undoing was obscenely early Villager gimps. With that nullified, I'll have very little to worry about.

Don't ban Duck Hunt too hastily either. Calmly remember that you can use the Dog or a ledge jump to reach the tree next time you're in tournament.

 

[Vermanubis]

Don't ban Duck Hunt too hastily either. Calmly remember that you can use the Dog or a ledge jump to reach the tree next time you're in tournament.

A consideration I'll certainly keep in mind. Thanks, A2.

 

[Kyogokudo]

I'm free for most of the day if anyone is interested. Not after 2 PM PST though, but 6 AM is fine.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'd be down for a bit now, if you're up.

 

[Kyogokudo]

I'd be down for a bit now, if you're up.

Sure I have around 1 hour of free time right now.

 

[Z1GMA]

@ A2ZOMG , we should Ganon it out sometime.
Add me: z1gma12

 

[Scarlet Jile]

If you have a solid connection to NE US, you should add me too, @ Z1GMA . That goes to anyone else who wants some dittos or Yoshi practice.

ScarletJile

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG , we should Ganon it out sometime.
Add me: z1gma12

What times are you normally available? My schedule can be a bit weird, but on different days I can often make most times work. If you have a preference between morning or evening, I'm pretty accommodating.

Right this instant won't work for clarification given I have some errands today.

 

[Z1GMA]

What times are you normally available? My schedule can be a bit weird, but on different days I can often make most times work. If you have a preference between morning or evening, I'm pretty accommodating.

Right this instant won't work for clarification given I have some errands today.

My Schedule is weird as well. Let's just give eachother a heads up whenever we see an opportunity.