The Battle for Power! (Matchmaking & Video Thread)

[Opana]

GGs @ Blobface , you used his customs better than everyone I've played, that tech into Dark Fists was awesome. Really fun, maybe next time I'll feel more comfortable with customs because I wdk too much and start doing bad lol. Would love to play again sometime.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Anyone up for some dittos? 3DS or Wii U. @ adom4 @ Opana @ Vermanubis

 

[adom4]

Anyone up for some dittos? 3DS or Wii U. @ adom4 @ Opana @ Vermanubis

Sorry, i'm in an online tourney right now.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'd love to, but I'd best start getting my stuff squared away for the start of the term today. Soon though, Kalm!

 

[Blobface]

Anyone up for some dittos? 3DS or Wii U. @ adom4 @ Opana @ Vermanubis

I'll probably get absolutely murdered, but I'm free all day.

 

[adom4]

I'll probably get absolutely murdered, but I'm free all day.

Yo you up for some dittos?

 

[Opana]

Anyone up for some dittos? 3DS or Wii U. @ adom4 @ Opana @ Vermanubis

I might be if you're still around, although tbh I'm still testing out some characters so I may need be dorf the whole time if we play.

 

[Ffamran]

Do you have an hour free? Watch these.

From terminalkai, Ganondorf vs. Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58SGfaLaYE.

and this one too also against Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThVwKxuc6k.

 

[Blobface]

Sorry Adom, I got caught up writing a guide and forgot about doing some matches. Want to try again some time tomorrow?

 

[adom4]

Sorry Adom, I got caught up writing a guide and forgot about doing some matches. Want to try again some time tomorrow?

Sure, i can play most of the day.

 

[Ffamran]

From Teremi's channel, Ganondorf vs. Little Mac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lc1_YL8nQQ.

And these two from aruth1218's channel: [1] and [2].

 

[the king of murder]

Do you have an hour free? Watch these.

From terminalkai, Ganondorf vs. Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58SGfaLaYE.

and this one too also against Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vThVwKxuc6k.

I am not good with detailed explanations so my little summary has to suffice.
I have only watched the second video. The Ganondorf played well against Sonic. He played relatively safe and patient and tried to move around a lot(lots of jumps, rolls for movement, safe aerial for baiting) which is really important against someone who has as good of a punish game as Sonic. Sometimes he overcommitted but we all do it from time to time.

I feel like he tried to shield a lot. Shielding too much is death sentence against good Sonics because their stupid reward comes mainly from grabs but boy do they hurt. They can easily bait you into shield because they put so much pressure into you. Honestly Powershielding and well timed spot dodges are really the only thing that can make this MU doable.

I noticed that Sonic played really safe. Like really, really safe, he used Jab OoS a lot even though he could have just grabbed Ganon or he didint punish the WP. In my opinion the Ganon could have played a bit more aggro and put more pressure(use well timed DA more so he is forced to shield) and he should use FF Nair more because it's such a great move for grab breakouts plus it's fast and powerful. This match looks winnable but we have to be super patient here.

I will be frank, fighting Sonic is a pain in the ass for me. I respect dedicated and good Sonic mains and I have nothing against them, it's my fault that I don't pick a better suited chara to fight or that my skill is not good enough but I just can't help it whenever I fight Sonic I want to burn down something because my blood is burning and my heart is exploding for fighting something so annoying. I am exaggerating of course because I need to be patient(yet bold) to play Ganon well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The youtube version of the Ganon tournament finals is uploaded. I recommend watching Potechi's upload though because I was too lazy to do video editing like him. (note: Potechi switched around the order of Games 2 and 3 on his upload because the ending on Game 2 is much more exciting. My upload just simply shows things in order)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuINAbhkg4

 

[Blobface]

The youtube version of the Ganon tournament finals is uploaded. I recommend watching Potechi's upload though because I was too lazy to do video editing like him. (note: Potechi switched around the order of Games 2 and 3 on his upload because the ending on Game 2 is much more exciting. My upload just simply shows things in order)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyuINAbhkg4

4:48

That is all.

Is Gungnir able to make Evo? I know it'd be incredibly hard for him to do so since he's in Japan, but that doesn't change how amazing it'd be. Did anyone even take a match off of him in the Ganon tourney?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Last I checked, he does not have plans to travel to EVO. Another problem is I know Gungnir does not really like custom moves.

 

[Blobface]

Last I checked, he does not have plans to travel to EVO. Another problem is I know Gungnir does not really like custom moves.

Oh well. Gungnir does plenty for Ganon by reigning over Japan anyway.

 

[adom4]

Anyone wants a few dittos?

 

[Blobface]

@ Vermanubis , I'm ready for the dittos. Prepare for destruction!


ima die

 

[Vermanubis]

@ Blobface What's your FC? =P

 

[Blobface]

Er, I'll just add you, gimme a moment. I didn't add it due to pure, unfiltered laziness.
@ Vermanubis I added your FC now, and now you can see mine.

 

[Vermanubis]

K, I'll add you then host. My tag's "Bridger" atm.

 

[Blobface]

K, I'll add you then host. My tag's "Bridger" atm.

Sorry about that, I was making sure I had the right loadouts. I'll be using 1122 and 2122.

 

[Vermanubis]

Whoops, got booted. Game's back up.

 

[Blobface]

oh whoops, gimme a minute

 

[Vermanubis]

Last one. GGs, Blob! I have to fly, but I'll give you some feedback once I get back.

 

[Blobface]

Good Games Verm! I did better than I expected, probably won about 1/10 or so, but I do kind've wonder if some of that was all the janky stuff I was doing with Dark Fists. That move is why I think Ganon might have a shot at high/upper-mid tier.

I really like how Ganondorf is so... Anti-Ganondorf. Like, not just his game design (99% of Ganon dittos take less than 2 minutes), but even crazy specific stuff. He has the least frame advantage out of Flame Choke, has one of the hardest to hit Ledge-hanging animations... I still say Ganon vs Ganon is 0:100.

Also, we should really give Ganon stage spikes a different name. Pretty much every single "stage spike" that happened in these matches straight up KO'd instead of gimping.

 

[Vermanubis]

You certainly put a lot of effort into customs, and it shows! I learned quite a bit about them those matches. But you did well, Blob! Though, as I said, my scope of reference is limited due to them being Ganon dittos, but if what I saw extends to the rest of the game, I'd say B tier feels right for you.

You have the foundations of good mindgames, and what you use you use very effectively. My only remark in that regard would be that in order to develop the full Ganliness, you'd have to extend beyond that subset of tools.

Anyway, if you want to play some more, I'm home for the night and don't have to rush off. I want to see more of these customs strats. =P

 

[Blobface]

You certainly put a lot of effort into customs, and it shows! I learned quite a bit about them those matches. But you did well, Blob! Though, as I said, my scope of reference is limited due to them being Ganon dittos, but if what I saw extends to the rest of the game, I'd say B tier feels right for you.

You have the foundations of good mindgames, and what you use you use very effectively. My only remark in that regard would be that in order to develop the full Ganliness, you'd have to extend beyond that subset of tools.

Anyway, if you want to play some more, I'm home for the night and don't have to rush off. I want to see more of these customs strats. =P

Nah, it's late here and I have work somewhat early tomorrow, but thanks for the offer! If you want more information on Dark Fists Shenanigan(on)s, I actually wrote a guide* dedicated entirely to Dark Fists. The most significant things that didn't come up in our dittos are:

• Dark Fists can actually counter normally safe SH'd Aerials like Rosalina's aerials and Sheik's aerials. Like everything with Ganon, it's not an end-all solution to that kind of safety, but the big thing is the threat of getting killed below 60%. Ganon has long legs + a disjointed fist (somehow), Dark Fists doesn't kill as early on Ganon**, and his aerials are usually not safe on Short Hop anyway, so not that good for dittos.
  
• Dark Fists can also "combo break", non-true combos. If more than 4 frames of leeway are allowed you can net some ridiculously low % kills. This is good against characters where the worst thing that happens if you whiff is you get put back into the combo you weren't getting out of anyway, like Sheik and Pikachu. Whiffing Dark Fists against Ganon is not fun.

Also, should I post the B-tier recommendation or should you? It just seems crass to me to burst into that thread saying "GUISE VERM SAID BEE TEER" if you were going to do it anyway.
*Shameless self promotion wheeeeeeee
**What was with that 52% Dark Fists kill by the way? were you DI'ing up?

 

[Vermanubis]

Ah, that's right! I'll have to take a lot at that. I know in our dittos, the WDK + DF combo made it really difficult to gimp you. I remember in one of our latter matches, I BAired you three times off the ledge, but you survived. =P I'll certainly have to look deeper into customs. I've been reluctant due to my fear that I'll put a lot of time into them only to see them taken out of the competitive environment. But it's hard to resist living to 180+ and landing kills at 60!

Edit: Yeah, I'll go ahead and post it in there. Though, in the spirit of fairness, I'd want to face you without customs, too, just because, as far as I know, the others currently ranked were arranged on the basis of vanilla. Not that it'll make a big difference, but it'd put my conscience at ease.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Last I checked, he does not have plans to travel to EVO. Another problem is I know Gungnir does not really like custom moves.

That's unfortunate. A Ganondorf who knows how to use Dark Fists properly is truly a terror to deal with, and I'd love to see what he could do with DF + Dropkick Dorf. It's weird how top Ganons seem reluctant to experiment more with customs when they really are Ganon's ticket to viability.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ah, that's right! I'll have to take a lot at that. I know in our dittos, the WDK + DF combo made it really difficult to gimp you. I remember in one of our ladder matches, I BAired you three times off the ledge, but you survived. =P I'll certainly have to look deeper into customs. I've been reluctant due to my fear that I'll put a lot of time into them only to see them taken out of the competitive environment. But it's hard to resist living to 180+ and landing kills at 60!

Edit: Yeah, I'll go ahead and post it in there. Though, in the spirit of fairness, I'd want to face you without customs, too, just because, as far as I know, the others currently ranked were arranged on the basis of vanilla. Not that it'll make a big difference, but it'd put my conscience at ease.

Honestly, any information is helpful. Probably the only thing that I personally can't use for grading people is equipment and FFAs.

 

[Vermanubis]

That's unfortunate. A Ganondorf who knows how to use Dark Fists properly is truly a terror to deal with, and I'd love to see what he could do with DF + Dropkick Dorf. It's weird how top Ganons seem reluctant to experiment more with customs when they really are Ganon's ticket to viability.

Not to imply I'm a top anything, but for me, as I mentioned earlier, it's mostly because I'm still wary of how to regard customs. If they become the competitive standard, then I'll be game. But as it stands, I see too many potential issues arising, and I'm genuinely afraid that this customs/non-customs schism'll create problems. I'm coming around a bit more though. The longevity WDK + DF provide Ganon is hard to say no to. My stocks ended around 80+ or lower in my matches with Blob against DF, and he survived until nearly 200+ several times, so seeing it in action has me intrigued.

Ganon's customs in some respects are good enough that one's entire playstyle can be predicated around them, and I've been worried thus far that I'll become too dependent on them and it'll alter my vanilla playstyle too much.

 

[jahkzheng]

That's unfortunate. A Ganondorf who knows how to use Dark Fists properly is truly a terror to deal with, and I'd love to see what he could do with DF + Dropkick Dorf. It's weird how top Ganons seem reluctant to experiment more with customs when they really are Ganon's ticket to viability.

I think it's because top Ganon's have already worked hard to learn the default character. I know this isn't really the same and is an exaggeration to make a point, but... it would be like if you spent a bunch of time learning all of Falco's ATs and became one of the best Wii U Falcos around. Then somebody said, "you should really learn Fox because he's better". By the time you've put the work in, you've not just fallen in love with the character you're in an intimate relationship with a particular moveset too. There may also be the trepidation at focusing on another way to play the same character because you're worried you could loose the edge you have playing the default. And then there's Verm's reasoning of course.

Just theories. I'm in no way qualified to speak for top Ganon's lol. I can say from my own experience though that's it's easier for me to play default Ganon on a whim in For Glory. Only times I play customs are the rare times I'm free the same time as one of my friends. I really would like to explore them more, but I feel there's still a massive amount of stuff to learn with default Ganon for me. Of course, there's still quite a bit of crossover since all different customs do is make you learn new special ATs when most of the gameplay comes from standard attacks.

I'll have to find a part of a day to commit to playing some of you guys. I could tonight potentially actually if anyone is around. I'm very much out of practice though with Ganon having not even FG'd with him in over a couple weeks, and it's not like I was awesome to begin with so... heh.

 

[Vermanubis]

I think it's because top Ganon's have already worked hard to learn the default character. I know this isn't really the same and is an exaggeration to make a point, but... it would be like if you spent a bunch of time learning all of Falco's ATs and became one of the best Wii U Falcos around. Then somebody said, "you should really learn Fox because he's better". By the time you've put the work in, you've not just fallen in love with the character you're in an intimate relationship with a particular moveset too. There may also be the trepidation at focusing on another way to play the same character because you're worried you could loose the edge you have playing the default.

Just theories. I'm in no way qualified to speak for top Ganon's lol. I can say from my own experience though that's it's easier for me to play default Ganon on a whim in For Glory.

This is actually a direct hit, Jahk. In addition to what I said above, some of my stalwartness is very much due to precisely that. A lot of sweat's gone into vanilla Ganon, and it feels... I don't know... disingenuous somewhat to so suddenly shift paradigms. Not to suggest those who're opting for customs are disingenuous -- not by any stretch. But for me, personally, it's... well... it's a thing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Not to imply I'm a top anything, but for me, as I mentioned earlier, it's mostly because I'm still wary of how to regard customs. If they become the competitive standard, then I'll be game. But as it stands, I see too many potential issues arising, and I'm genuinely afraid that this customs/non-customs schism'll create problems. I'm coming around a bit more though. The longevity WDK + DF provide Ganon is hard to say no to. My stocks ended around 80+ or lower in my matches with Blob against DF, and he survived until nearly 200+ several times, so seeing it in action has me intrigued.

Ganon's customs in some respects are good enough that one's entire playstyle can be predicated around them, and I've been worried thus far that I'll become too dependent on them and it'll alter my vanilla playstyle too much.

One thing that's worth keeping in mind is that Ganondorf does much better against himself with WDK due to how well he edgeguards his own default recovery. In general against a lot of fat characters WDK also happens to be better due to it being easier to hit on large characters, who also tend to have dangerous enough edgeguards and stronger punishes for default aerial wizkick that Ganondorf appreciates the offstage survivability.

I still believe that in more matchups, the default Wizkick is technically superior due to its reward and utility for getting out of juggles, something which Ganondorf generally suffers in. That being said, WDK is useful for how it helps Ganon in what happens to be some of his harder matchups, not to mention versus other big characters.

As a side note, I believe I do worse in custom Ganon dittos when a lot of my personal playstyle emphasizes edgeguarding, which is to a fair extent trivialized by WDK.

 

[Vermanubis]

One thing that's worth keeping in mind is that Ganondorf does much better against himself with WDK due to how well he edgeguards his own default recovery. In general against a lot of fat characters WDK also happens to be better due to it being easier to hit on large characters, who also tend to have dangerous enough edgeguards and stronger punishes for default aerial wizkick that Ganondorf appreciates the offstage survivability.

I still believe that in more matchups, the default Wizkick is technically superior due to its reward and utility for getting out of juggles, something which Ganondorf generally suffers in. That being said, WDK is useful for how it helps Ganon in what happens to be some of his harder matchups, not to mention versus other big characters.

As a side note, I believe I do worse in custom Ganon dittos when a lot of my personal playstyle emphasizes edgeguarding, which is to a fair extent trivialized by WDK.

Point well made, A2. I think in any case, Wizkick'll be my thing. But I've certainly gained a new appreciation for WDK in recent times.

 

[jahkzheng]

This is actually a direct hit, Jahk. In addition to what I said above, some of my stalwartness is very much due to precisely that. A lot of sweat's gone into vanilla Ganon, and it feels... I don't know... disingenuous somewhat to so suddenly shift paradigms. Not to suggest those who're opting for customs are disingenous -- not by any stretch. But for me, personally, it's... well... it's a thing.

This feeling is pretty much the same reason I couldn't get into PM. It was changing enough that I didn't feel comfortable that what I was learning today would work tomorrow. And, back when I was actually playing PM, I felt that it wasn't the real game and that there wouldn't always be a way to play it. Since this time, PM's proved it can stick around pretty well, but I've long since abandoned Brawl mods.

It's funny, the way I ended up maining Ganon in Brawl was because I really liked playing him in B+ (thing before PM). But then my Wii died and I uninstalled the Homebrew channel before sending it in for repairs. When I got it back, B+ had changed already and I just decided if I was really going to put effort into a character, it would be the character as Sakurai intended... even if he was already considered one of the worst characters in the game by that point already. There was a pride in sticking with Ganon and he suited me. Same story with Wolf.

Btw, I mostly played online, including a few tournies, and used fsmash.org which was a friend finder for Brawl I used to frequent. Was average among that group of mostly average players but we had a few pretty good guys. That place was my first experience playing people that weren't just my local group of friends, and, thusly, it was my first experience in playing people that could beat me regularly. It's as deep as I've tread into the competitive scene until this online Ganon tourney, heh. I got to play Gungnir!

 

[Vermanubis]

This feeling is pretty much the same reason I couldn't get into PM. It was changing enough that I didn't feel comfortable that what I was learning today would work tomorrow. And, back when I was actually playing PM, I felt that it wasn't the real game and that there wouldn't always be a way to play it. Since this time, PM's proved it can stick around pretty well, but I've long since abandoned Brawl mods.

It's funny, the way I ended up maining Ganon in Brawl was because I really liked playing him in B+ (thing before PM). But then my Wii died and I uninstalled the Homebrew channel before sending it in for repairs. When I got it back, B+ had changed already and I just decided if I was really going to put effort into a character, it would be the character as Sakurai intended... even if he was already considered one of the worst characters in the game by that point already. There was a pride in sticking with Ganon and he suited me. Same story with Wolf.

Btw, I mostly played online, including a few tournies, and used fsmash.org which was a friend finder for Brawl I used to frequent. Was average among that group of mostly average players but we had a few pretty good guys. That place was my first experience playing people that weren't just my local group of friends, and, thusly, it was my first experience in playing people that could beat me regularly. It's as deep as I've tread into the competitive scene until this online Ganon tourney, heh. I got to play Gungnir!

I couldn't have articulated it better myself. Customs just don't feel... "real" to me yet. This isn't to diminish anyone's accomplishments with them, of course, but as I mentioned a few weeks ago in regard to going to a customs tourney: those tourneys are a 5-hour drive for me (albeit a fun one), and my foremost priority is competition -- and if I were to win a tournament or accomplish similar things, I wouldn't want to have a disclaimer next to it.

I want to stress that this is my opinion though, and that if someone feels that customs are "real," they should view their accomplishments therein accordingly.

 

[jahkzheng]

I couldn't have articulated it better myself. Customs just don't feel... "real" to me yet. This isn't to diminish anyone's accomplishments with them, of course, but as I mentioned a few weeks ago in regard to going to a customs tourney: those tourneys are a 5-hour drive for me (albeit a fun one), and my foremost priority is competition -- and if I were to win a tournament or accomplish similar things, I wouldn't want to have a disclaimer next to it.

I want to stress that this is my opinion though, and that if someone feels that customs are "real," they should view their accomplishments therein accordingly.

Your reasoning makes perfect sense being well into the competitive scene. I think it's actually a pretty wise decision to wait it out and further refine your vanilla Ganon. I mean, look at all Gungnir has done. It can be easy to forget that he's done it all with just vanilla Ganon he's gotten so much out the character already. Wouldn't hurt to play around with customs in friendlies though. Doubt you're far from that step seeing as Blob's Ganon has you intrigued.

For myself, I'm pretty busy. Busy enough that it's hard to even organize friendlies at this point. Traveling to tournies is pretty far from my mind. My only real reason for not using customs so far is simply mostly just two reasons - 1) The convenience of FG and the fact that vanilla Ganon is all that's available there, and 2) I still have so much to learn that vanilla Ganon is more than enough for me to worry about right now.

 

[Blobface]

I hope that after EVO, tourneys everywhere just adopt a consistent ruleset. Constant ruleset changes are a problem, customs or not. IMO Once the "transition period" is done and there's no more "surprise" customs, support for customs will be almost unanimous.

Also: Shaq