The Bakery - Realised I can still edit the thread title!

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

re-read my post lol.

A Snake mains picked up Fox as a secondary to his Snake. I have trouble with both matchups still, but beat his Snake everytime, despite being close games. I've played his fox once or twice before and got ***** from not knowing wtf I'm doing.

oh, I guess I cannot read. Anything you really noticed you had problems with? The only foxes I have played have not been really all that great. Mostly using the really obvious stuff like Utilt chains, usmashing a lot, really punishable stuff. Wasn't until one other fox I played that was actually decent I noticed I was not sure how to deal with it. SH laser camping in close range to falco is annoying to deal with. The options out of it are surprising and the mix-ups got to me.

 

[swordsaint]

the fox i played was really quick i just had a lot of trouble keeping up with it

mix ups like jab on my shield to free grab then some good edgeguarding if he was close enough to throw me off

he wasn't stupid with his uptilt chains but when he got them he got them

short hop lasers everywhere are pretty fast, and bait you a lot.

overall it was mostly the foxes speed, he was running circles around me, pressuring me in to my shield a lot and then getting heaps of grabs.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Pretty much what I ran into.
What I had been thinking about doing was to ignore the lasers and try my best to keep my spacing. It seemed to work for the most part, but skill is easily a factor in those matches I played. His lasers are not disruptive or anything and it really comes down to the ground game which I feel Falco does better. After trying to use fox a few times it just seems our range is so much better than his. It does not seem like you really need to be in shield all the time when jab or ftilt seems to outrange anything he has upclose. Then, after that killing is a problem, but it seems difficult for fox to get a kill unless we are offstage.

Well, that was my thoughts on it after playing.

 

[swordsaint]

I felt like he lands up smash not too hard though tbh.

our lasers are pretty gayed out by his reflector too.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I felt like he lands up smash not too hard though tbh.

our lasers are pretty gayed out by his reflector too.

Well, it seems like any hardcore camping on either side is shut down rather effectively. I am getting vibes of a lot opponent reading to really take advantage of the match more so than any real advantage by either side. I still say it's 50:50. And forget the whole idea of 5 point debate in match-up numbers. It's a useless number anyway as it can get messed up stages. It's either counter, hard counter or even. Don't need these match-up numbers.

 

[Denzi]

Well, it seems like any hardcore camping on either side is shut down rather effectively. I am getting vibes of a lot opponent reading to really take advantage of the match more so than any real advantage by either side. I still say it's 50:50. And forget the whole idea of 5 point debate in match-up numbers. It's a useless number anyway as it can get messed up stages. It's either counter, hard counter or even. Don't need these match-up numbers.

I'd be willing to say 50:50 too after having played some good foxes.
And I'd say matches like this reinforce that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPXEpHwIb8U&feature=related

And even ignoring straight camping, I'd say Fox's lasers are more useful than ours just because their sheer speed hits for guaranteed damage, because if we try to fight them off we just get stuck in a worse position than we would be otherwise.

 

[M@v]

Fox has several ways of landing upsmash, some that may of happened to you and you didn't even realize.

Like us upsmash OoS is a great option for him.

At high percents(somewhere in the 100s I think) dair combos into upsmash.

Until about 100%, weak hit nair combos into upsmash on falco. This works on a lot of characters(different percents), and is one of fox's lesser known combos to non fox players.

He can always running or chargeing upsmash. Dacus does virtually nothing for fox, so running upsmash is fine.

Falco will have to approach in this mu. All fox has to do is turtle in his reflector. I feel this is how most falcos lose this mu; they don't know what to do when they are forced out of their camping rhythm and are forced to approach.

If anyone at apex wants, I can go fox and play their falco

 

[swordsaint]

I wish I could come and get that experience.

Big pile of water sucks.

Hmm, I think I might of had the problem of still trying to be too defensive. I'll take this on board M@v.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I hate the Fox / Falco matchup. I always go DeDeDe against a good Fox. If they're bad, I can do whatever I want with Falco and win, but the ones that know the character / how to play against Falco are sooooo hard for Falco. I've experienced it plenty of times against Zeton.

I don't even think Falco has the 5% advantage he's given. It seems totally neutral to me. Whatever damage Falco wracks up is almost certainly balanced out by Fox's extremely high kill power coupled with Falco's light weight. Fox also combos Falco just fine, and oh yeah, Fox can't be CG > Spiked off the ledge unless he's at a really low %, but then it doesn't matter anyway.

It seems totally neutral to me, but it's a very different playstyle than Falco normally gets away with. Fox can outcamp Falco and has no problems forcing Falco to approach. He's a bit easier to gimp since his phantasm sucks, but his killpower is insane so even if you gimp him, he will have no problem killing you.


I'd love to get some practice in against you sometime, M@V, but unfortunately I won't be at Apex. I feel very comfortable as DeDeDe in the Fox matchup (which is also 50/50), but as Falco I absolutely hate it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I do not have my brawl game right now. Can anyone confirm at all if a forced ground release on fox at the edge of jungle japes is an automatic way into the water since we cannot spike him into it? I swear I did this when I still had my game.

 

[M@v]

I hate the Fox / Falco matchup. I always go DeDeDe against a good Fox. If they're bad, I can do whatever I want with Falco and win, but the ones that know the character / how to play against Falco are sooooo hard for Falco. I've experienced it plenty of times against Zeton.

I don't even think Falco has the 5% advantage he's given. It seems totally neutral to me. Whatever damage Falco wracks up is almost certainly balanced out by Fox's extremely high kill power coupled with Falco's light weight. Fox also combos Falco just fine, and oh yeah, Fox can't be CG > Spiked off the ledge unless he's at a really low %, but then it doesn't matter anyway.

It seems totally neutral to me, but it's a very different playstyle than Falco normally gets away with. Fox can outcamp Falco and has no problems forcing Falco to approach. He's a bit easier to gimp since his phantasm sucks, but his killpower is insane so even if you gimp him, he will have no problem killing you.


I'd love to get some practice in against you sometime, M@V, but unfortunately I won't be at Apex. I feel very comfortable as DeDeDe in the Fox matchup (which is also 50/50), but as Falco I absolutely hate it.

cool ^_^.

Also I feel Fox wins vs D3, but thats just me I guess.

Snake, Falco, and D3 are foxs best top tier matchups. (D3 is close to top tier so you know what I mean)

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yeah-- with D3 it's a case of D3 getting owned on stage, but getting one or two good grabs resulting in a gimp or further reads into more grabs. Usual tech chase stuff, but Fox is light and gimpable. It's kind of like D3 vs Diddy. For a while, D3 gets owned, but he can even it up really quickly, so it evens out more or less. I could see it being a slight advantage Fox though, yeah.

 

[Vlade]

I suck at the snake matchup

I'll try to record vids eventually I've been playing MK/Wario in tourney lately though because of the stagelist that Perth has recently adopted (trying to get them to change it back).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I was just thinking of the new stagelist. Port Town Aero Dive. It has never really been much for consideration in the past, but how about now? It seems completely viable as a good Falco counterpick. The entire stage is flat for like 90% of the match, it avoids his one main weakness in the form of planking. Killing is no longer much of a problem if you cna pressure people into being hit by the vehicles.

Despite lack of edges, I can see this stage being very good for falco.

 

[swordsaint]

It doesn't even matter.

My region has basically come to the conclusion "it seems it's more of an achievement to not be in the BBR".

We're not gonna use this list or half the rule changes they suddenly made. (Like the new kamikaze rules for instance)

the BBR made a huge mistake with this new one.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, the fact has always been that the rulest has had a certain pull on certain stages. Luigi's mansion and norfair were once viable stages, then it was changed and now they are back again. Undoubtidly, there will be a few areas that will reconsider the idea now that the ruleset has changed again.

Also, port town aero dive has always been on the borderline segment of being banned. Therefore, it has always been a stage worth consideration. I cannot predict what the future will bring, but I have a feeling that a few people wouldn't mind if some discussion was given for PTAD. I mean, if it does not happen at SWF, it will basically be lost or untold among the reigons.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Swordsaint, this stage list is scarcely any different than the last. The rule set is hardly any different either. Additionally, the previos Bowser-cide rule had no reason to exist in the first place.

Your region is more than welcome to play Coin Matches on Spear Pillar or stamina matches on Final Destination if they want to.



Xeylode - I think PTAD could be really good or really bad for Falco. Either the flat stage and lack of edges will help us, or the lack of edges will hurt our recovery options too much. Either way, it seems like it's definitely worth looking into.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

No bad mouthing other reigons, I say please, do not do that.

I disagree with you on that one M3. Borderline/Counterpick stages never got any publicity. Ruleset one had norfair and mansion garning some poplularity. With the arrival of the 2nd one, those stages were gone from popularity. I have not heard the mention of the mansion in what seems like a whole year. It was simply not played on. But, now the 3rd ruleset has brought back some old popularity and included a couple of new ones like PTAD.

Now, back on topic, I guess PTAD is a do or die situation you say? I totally agree with that. Lack of ledge makes recovery dang near impossible. Falco a lightweight character does die at 40%. Fall into the track, more damage. Not something we want to rack up when worse recovery can happen which leads to a KO attempt.

 

[swordsaint]

Port Town Aero Dive - It's just an all around stupid stage. It'll kill any hope of recovery for those with underpar recoveries. You literally have to damage yourself to recover half of the time. And getting hit from below up to the stage means "lolpredictable" they can simply follow your trajectory, make you do it again.

Distant Planet - So I heard you like small stages that make it easy to pressure you on that'll give MK a throwable projectile? Did I mention he can gimp you in to Bulborb?

Luigi's Mansion - Whatever happened to circle camping, laser locks and other dumb roof combos? Oh that's right, the BBR says that because you can break the stage it doesn't matter. So lets go through a few things. It'll take about 20-30 seconds to break every pillar. While breaking said pillars you're open to attack. The Mansion respawns in TWENTY seconds. Oh, that's a huge opening!

Norfair - What? Seriously? The amount of ledgecamping/planking and the severity you can abuse the hazards to is just too much. Why would even consider giving stupid tactics and characters like MK another CP on that they be like "loliminvincibleyoucan'tcatchme"?

Green Greens - I heard you like wall infinites and random explosions you can be throw in to. I also heard that when I try to kill you sometimes the blocks save you by landing on your head. Too much randomness in a stage like this.

Japes - So much circle camping. SO MUCH. Camping is boosted so much in this stage, and ugh...do I really need to explain JAPES legality and why it shouldn't be legal?

Pirate Ship - Ok. Let's camp the water and wait for you to approach, I'll then proceed to spike you. Also you can't gimp me. Also I can randomly spike you and not care about killing myself. also there's a gravity change. Also there's high damage hazards. K. What? I don't even understand why this is legal. It was fine as doubles only.

Rainbow Cruise - So MK, how do you enjoy having a plethora of counterpicks that it doesn't even matter if they ban a stage against you because you have 10 more to choose from? "Very Broken" is the answer.

In short, some of the reason to keep them banned is the overall stage list is IMPORTANT. You don't want a stage list that is buffing an already OP character. There's so much I could say about how the overall stage list really effects the striking and banning system and how giving a character such as MK for example MORE CP's that can't be banned because you're too busy banning worse stages, it's so very important.

Kamikaze rule - Of course it had a reason to exist. With the removal of this rule, you've nerfed already bad characters to begin with. You've basically gone from "let's ignore the results screen and say you win if you initiated the move" to "let's listen to the results screen (despite the fact it's dumb, I've seriously died FIRST when I've ganoncided somone in friendlies, explain that) and make them play 1 stock". Now there's no benefit to using a kamikaze move. Why should the person who initiated the move get punished for doing that? You did something stupid and jumped in to his dumb attack, you deserve to lose. 1 stock match just prolongs the match more than necessary. You've like...changed a rule that IIRC has been existent since Melee and had no complaints. lol

Like I find it really hard to explain how wrong the change to this rule was. Using the move to take down you and your opponent...why should you not win for being able to do that? Like really, the Bowser killed you. You didn't kill him.

Also - taking a stab at my region like that was pretty gay. (the coin match crack) It's a really dumb list.

any 5 year old who's sentient could come up with a better stage list.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

No bad mouthing other reigons, I say please, do not do that.

? I'm not bad mouthing anyone. I'm saying that they are free to do as they choose.





@Swordsaint, you're really freaking out over nothing here. You can read all of the descriptions of why the stages are listed as they are in T-Block's post, the second one in official rule set post.

Most of the things you are saying are really sensationalistic and don't actually happen as much as you think they do or even at all.

Given that, again, I personally voted ban on several of those stages listed. Others I voted counter for, but I voted ban on more than I voted counter. I voted counter on PTAD, PS2, and one or two others iirc. I voted ban on Pirate Ship, Green Greens, Mansion, Yoshi's Island Melee, Norfair, etc. The majority wins, though. Ultimately, none of the stages, even those that I personally voted ban for, are really THAT BAD at all.

If you would like to calm down and actually discuss the stages rather than exploding and writing nothing but sarcastic comments, I would be happy to engage.

Like I find it really hard to explain how wrong the change to this rule was. Using the move to take down you and your opponent...why should you not win for being able to do that? Like really, the Bowser killed you. You didn't kill him.

The Bowser made the choice to attempt to kill you BOTH. The game decides who "dies" based on port. The Bowser knows this, and must judge for himself whether going for the Kawl suicide is worth it, based on that.

It's no different than Snake's grenades having issues with port-- we don't make a special rule that says "Snakes grenades always hit the opponent, because they should ignore port priority", that would be silly. Bowser is no different, nor is any Suicide Kill.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Non-competitive players use those methods. To use that example for someone who is actively competitive simply sounds a bit insulting. That is how I see it anyway and that is why I made the comment.
================================
Port Town Aero Dive - Win-lose situation by every character. Link that is in control of the stage does not have to care if his recovery sucks. However, it can go equally wrong for him if he is one recoverying.

Distant Planet - No opinion, never liked it that much anyway. No strategical advantage for falco anyway.

Luigi's Mansion - I can actually see some pretty good baiting going on here. If you are attacking pillars, that baits the other player into trying to attack you. In that scenario they are approaching. I like that idea if I am not the one approaching.

Norfair - Agreed with you on this one. Lava does not come around often enough to stop it.

Green Greens - While it is possible, I just never experience that much. I play the stage probably like 10 times and only die from the blocks once. The blocks do get destroyed quiet a lot and you have to line up the infinite to begin with. And I have only been saved by blocks or anyone I played against like twice.

Japes - Japes is good for us lol

Pirate Ship - I do not like pirate ship.

Rainbow Cruise - Gay stage agreed. But it's falco's weakness, so that is why.

You don't want a stage list that is buffing an already OP character.
*coughtempbanmkcough*

 

[dainbramage]

The Bowser made the choice to attempt to kill you BOTH. The game decides who "dies" based on port.

Which is why it's ******** to use the results screen. Why should the result of a match be either a someone winning or a 1-stock rematch dependant on which player plugged their controller in first? To give bowser/ganon/kirby mains a reason to be punctual when their game is called?

 

[Vlade]

Sadly I don't think PTAD could ever be good for falco because of the lack of edges - Falco NEEDS ledges to recover, otherwise he'll be punished hard.

Having Luigi's Mansion legal is really really lame for us I play MK on silly CPs anyway

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Apparently Bardull thinks that Rain has a better Falco than DEHF. OUTRAGEOUS!

cool ^_^.

Also I feel Fox wins vs D3, but thats just me I guess.

Snake, Falco, and D3 are foxs best top tier matchups. (D3 is close to top tier so you know what I mean)

I think MK is easier than Snake (for all spacies)

 

[Vlade]

We'll just have to wait until Apex 2

Rain plays with basically no risk whilst DEHF seems to be successful with any risks he takes imo. They're both very smart players

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Bardull said he was pretty good but couldn't make top3 is what I heard.
Dehf doesn't really take risks he just exploits habits, that's hardly risky, that's an educated guess.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Is this the same rain that is famous for having that 8-10 minute campfest with southen?

 

[Kasper!]

i hope rain and dehf both do well

 

[MetalMusicMan]

We'll just have to wait until Apex 2

Rain plays with basically no risk whilst DEHF seems to be successful with any risks he takes imo. They're both very smart players

lol. I know right? I see Larry do risky things and I'm like "wtf, that is really risky, he's going to get puni-- wtf it worked..." lol.

Then I'm like okay, maybe I'll play riskier... then I immediately remember why I always play as safe as possible

 

[Denzi]

Is this the same rain that is famous for having that 8-10 minute campfest with southen?

I believe so, yes.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I believe so, yes.

I will be awaiting the APEX results with much anticipation.

Hope you don't mind me stealing your colors there Denzi.

 

[Teran]

Look who came back from the dead.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Thanks for the entrance, Terrance :3

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Look who came back from the dead.

Welcome back!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

>: (

I'm ignored D:

 

[Denzi]

Goodness, he lives!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

>: (

I'm ignored D:

Xonar, he has been revived.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Right back at you king.

 

[Denzi]

Green text is starting to confuse me.
*scrolls through* "I don't remember typing tha-" *looks at user* "Oh."