The Bakery - Realised I can still edit the thread title!

[swordsaint]

maybe marths should learn this then

nobody tell them >__>

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Fullhops gets you up in the air which is not good against Dedede as he can punish you on landing if not then you escape but don't really get any advantage out of it.

Dedede can powershield grab silent lasers, or grab and absorb the laser with grab armor.
He can also just running shield grab the startup lag of phantasm... But I guess he cant if I do it higher, but he still got that bair...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Fullhops gets you up in the air which is not good against Dedede as he can punish you on landing if not then you escape but don't really get any advantage out of it.

Dedede can powershield grab silent lasers, or grab and absorb the laser with grab armor.
He can also just running shield grab the startup lag of phantasm... But I guess he cant if I do it higher, but he still got that bair...

Dedede can't punish you on landing, just look at larry vs commander beef or summit.

Silent lasers are unpunishable btw

 

[Denzi]

So I've been using Uair to DI to great effect lately. Also, I want to know if I'm the only person who does this:

When my opponent is on the ledge, I listen to what button they hit (because the shoulder buttons make a very distinct sound). It makes it easy to score kills off of ledgerolls

 

[swordsaint]

Who needs to listen when you can, like, be awesome and just react to it?

 

[Alphicans]

So I've been using Uair to DI to great effect lately. Also, I want to know if I'm the only person who does this:

When my opponent is on the ledge, I listen to what button they hit (because the shoulder buttons make a very distinct sound). It makes it easy to score kills off of ledgerolls

Well I think a lot of people do that, but I noticed that a long time ago. So when I am on the ledge I press anything but I also press the shoulder button very loudly so they think I am going to ledge roll. I maintain the same sound every so I don't become obvious with this.

 

[Denzi]

Well I think a lot of people do that, but I noticed that a long time ago. So when I am on the ledge I press anything but I also press the shoulder button very loudly so they think I am going to ledge roll. I maintain the same sound every so I don't become obvious with this.

I have one of my shoulder buttons set to special anyway, so I don't have to worry as much.

 

[BleachigoZX]

I don't do that unless I know your controller set-ups.

I specifically made mine to counter that.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Dedede can't punish you on landing, just look at larry vs commander beef or summit.

Silent lasers are unpunishable btw

What if he grabs you and absorb the damage with his grab armor? I think that's considered it to be punishable.

 

[BleachigoZX]

What if he grabs you and absorb the damage with his grab armor? I think that's considered it to be punishable.

I think DDD ***** Falco in the air. (Did you all forget about Shield Pivot Grabs or running around Falco?)

Just ask my younger brother, WHO WILL BEAT DEHF WHEN HE COMES TO NJ! You heard it here first XD

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I think DDD ***** Falco in the air. (Did you all forget about Shield Pivot Grabs or running around Falco?)

Just ask my younger brother, WHO WILL BEAT DEHF WHEN HE COMES TO NJ! You heard it here first XD

So is like everyone agreeing that Falco vs Dedede is even? I personally done this matchup lots and I'm feeling like Dedede has an answer for everything Falco can do. And getting punished by a Dedede is usually worse than Dedede getting punished by a Falco.

 

[BleachigoZX]

No, I think Falco wins.

He has enough ledge mix-ups to keep himself from getting wrecked. People just need to think outside the box (or stage, lol) when holding on to the ledge.

I think it is 65:35-ish, I can agree with anything around that.

 

[swordsaint]

Then yar be wrong bleachigo.

Dedede can get past lasers quite well, if they know how to PS.

Bair kind of...wrecks Falco...Especially offstage.

Uptilt makes me cry.

tech chasing or better yet back throw and bair follow ups are quite bothersome.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

65:35

PSing is less of a problem with dedede as he isnt as fast, you have enough time once hes close. and his best close range option imo is ftilt which sets up for some moves at some percentages so yeah.

 

[swordsaint]

xonar, no offense, but you're a falco main. so you're opinion on what dedede has best is hardly...useful... lulululul

i think d3 has enough range, strength, survivability, gimping, baits and follow ups to go even with falco, i really do

 

[Yumewomiteru]

lolwut? idk which Dedede you played but grab is by far Dedede's best option up close. Dedede can srsly grab you from 3 Falcos away, and it comes out quickly. and I sorta proved that silent laser actually isn't unpunishible because of grab armor.

 

[BleachigoZX]

You aren't thinking outside the box if you fear DDD uptilt on the ledge, I'd be more afraid of Dtilt.

Also powershielding is overrated, 1 MikeHaze video isn't going to make lasers useless.

Backthrow Bair, why the heck are you falling into that mix-up? Falco can avoid that with his own aerial speed.

Edit: I don't think DDD has enough approaches for the MU. Or baits, I mean just hold back what safe option can DDD use that you can't react to?

 

[swordsaint]

I'm not, im just saying IT'S THERE.

The worst option can sometimes be the best, used sparingly.

Is d3s pivot grab good?

Because I'm pretty sure there's this new tech that for just one extra frame or something you instantly pivot grab IN FRONT OF YOU. rofl

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Bleachigo, I disagree that its easy for Falco to mix up his ledge options. Just by simply standing on the right place Dedede can take away all your options except for ledge jump, which if he predicts he can bair you and you may take more damage trying to recover. And even if he doesn't predict it you will be above Dedede trying to land, which puts you at a disadvantage.

 

[Alphicans]

It's impossible to limit your ledge options to only 1. I agree with bleachigo, you guys are very narrow minded about what will work. Just because theory will say "this will beat this" or "that isn't a true combo" doesn't meant you should never try it. Time spent on the ledge should always be a factor when considering your options, as well as the amount of ledge grabs and how high you jump when you get off the ledge. Fakes are not just one time things, they work a lot of the time because there are so many options, and most of the time your opponent has to pick only 1 one them.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lolwut? idk which Dedede you played but grab is by far Dedede's best option up close. Dedede can srsly grab you from 3 Falcos away, and it comes out quickly. and I sorta proved that silent laser actually isn't unpunishible because of grab armor.

ftilt pops u up and allows for more moves

xonar, no offense, but you're a falco main. so you're opinion on what dedede has best is hardly...useful... lulululul

i think d3 has enough range, strength, survivability, gimping, baits and follow ups to go even with falco, i really do

ive played many great dededes.

range gets beat
strength is crap if you cant hit
survivability is crap if you get combo'd hard
gimping = true
baits are personal
follow ups are parts of every chara

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Look I'll prove it to you, Dedede is standing just outside of Falco's ledge attack range. If Falco is over %100 does either get up, get up attack, or roll, Dedede will hit Falco with a d-smash. if he tries to release to phantasm Dedede can react with an uptilt. if you drop/release to airdodge/aerial Dedede will shield grab you. The only option Falco has thats relatively safe in that situation is ledge jump, which as I stated before puts you in a worse situation.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

ive played many great dededes.

range gets beat
strength is crap if you cant hit
survivability is crap if you get combo'd hard
gimping = true
baits are personal
follow ups are parts of every chara

idk, maybe you should consider who your calling great dededes.

Dedede's range does not get beat, he can shieldgrab basically everything you can throw at him. And with his beastly spot dodge its actually pretty hard to punish him for alot of his moves.

Falco WILL get hit by Dedede, he can approach you and back you up to the edge of the stage. eventurally you will either have to fight him or try to get past him, neither option is all that safe.

Dedede does get comboed hard, but it won't matter much when he gets above the damage when you can combo him. Now you have to slowly deal another 100-150% AND land a killing move. and trust me, it is impossible to kill a grounded Dedede, your best bet is to grab him and throw him in the air and try to get the kill before he lands.

And yes, Dedede can gimp Falco, if not then he can deal a ton of damage while Falco tries to recover.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Look I'll prove it to you, Dedede is standing just outside of Falco's ledge attack range. If Falco is over %100 does either get up, get up attack, or roll, Dedede will hit Falco with a d-smash. if he tries to release to phantasm Dedede can react with an uptilt. if you drop/release to airdodge/aerial Dedede will shield grab you. The only option Falco has thats relatively safe in that situation is ledge jump, which as I stated before puts you in a worse situation.

Regrab the ledge, plank.


That's right, if you for whatever reason are on the ledge losing, what will DDD do from that spot if you regrab the ledge.

Shoot a laser into regrab, reflector regrab.

Stupid little things like that work.

Edit: Killing DDD is all about removing places from him to land, you gotta keep pushing him up and out. Sooner or later you will force a UpB and thats when you set-up for a kill. (A horizontal one works well, DDD is too heavy for a Vertical one, and spiking is dependent on position.)

 

[Bloodcross]

Lets just pitch our tents and call it a day, ah?

 

[Yumewomiteru]

If your losing Dedede can just stand there and shield when you're trying to plank. Plus its a dangerous strat as he can just run off bair and stage spike you.

And yes, thats how your going to be killing Dedede, but think of all the damage you will be taking when trying to do that method, esp. against a Dedede who knows how to DI. One time I lost an entire stock trying to kill him that way, because of smart DI, recovery, and landing strats he survived till 350% when I finally killed him with a fthrow that he almost survived,

@BC,
honestly, I find that its much easier to camp Dedede wth MK than Falco.

 

[swordsaint]

If your losing Dedede can just stand there and shield when you're trying to plank. Plus its a dangerous strat as he can just run off bair and stage spike you.

And yes, thats how your going to be killing Dedede, but think of all the damage you will be taking when trying to do that method, esp. against a Dedede who knows how to DI. One time I lost an entire stock trying to kill him that way, because of smart DI, recovery, and landing strats he survived till 350% when I finally killed him with a fthrow that he almost survived,

@BC,
honestly, I find that its much easier to camp Dedede wth MK than Falco.

aside from getting stage spiked or going for a stage spike, which seriously shouldn't happen

i agree with most of the stuff you say. It's a dumb match up.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Well I hope you guys learn the match-up then because I don't know how to help you.

 

[Bloodcross]

So basically a fatter Jigglypuff... wait at the ledge and wait for a camping Falco to approach

 

[Yumewomiteru]

So basically a fatter Jigglypuff... wait at the ledge and wait for a camping Falco to approach

BC, play DaWall's Dedede with Falco at the next tourney, you'll know what I'm talking about. He knows the matchup really well from playing against me. At UMAD he almost 2-stocked Pelca's Falco in a MM.

 

[Denzi]

If he's right outside your ledge attack range, you can legedrop phantasm short cancel which will avoid the Utilt and put you in a position where you can punish his ending lag.

Learn cancels son.

 

[Vlade]

'The Bakery - Matchup discussion #X, King DDD'

 

[Denzi]

'The Bakery - Matchup discussion #X, King DDD'

Just futrher proof that we need to re-open the MU thread.

 

[Vlade]

Yeah pretty much

Any volunteers for doing it? I'm pretty lazy when it comes to updating that kind of stuff (evident with the 'How to Deal with specific moves' thread)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Teran is gonna get mad at me if I start multiple MU threads at once even though that's how I'd like to roll >: (

 

[Teran]

One at a time, my dear friend.

It's not against the rules to open as many threads as you want if they're not spam, it's just that one at a time is more orderly.

Still, I'm here to enforce rules not preferences, knock yourself out.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nah I respect your desire to keep everything clean on these boards.

 

[Denzi]

Nah I respect your desire to keep everything clean on these boards.

Yeah, I think one at a time is a lot easier, especially if we're bringing people in other boards. I'm gonna say we start with the Peach MU to get rid of that stupid Dark Peach thread and get some other opinions, and unless someone else wants to do it, I'll go ahead and make the thread and bring some Peaches over here.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Yeah, I think one at a time is a lot easier, especially if we're bringing people in other boards. I'm gonna say we start with the Peach MU to get rid of that stupid Dark Peach thread and get some other opinions, and unless someone else wants to do it, I'll go ahead and make the thread and bring some Peaches over here.

6:4 Falco.

I would rather do D3 or Pika. By the way, we need an update on the Match-up Index to get the Link, Falcon, and Ganon spots filled in w/ 8:2, 7:3 and 95:5 respectively.

 

[swordsaint]

The MU thread needs to be unstickied a new one to take it's place.