The (almost) Comeback King.

[Sonicdahedgie]

Here I am, a self-proclaimed Lucario main, after using him for less than a day total, making my first thread in the Lucario boards. I hope I won't make a complete fool of myslef.

(Spelling mistake intentional. Haha! See? Funny!)

On to the topic...
_________________________

There are two characters that can be considered the "Comeback King" in Brawl. Ike, and our very own freaking dog-man-cat-thing, Lucario. Lucario is deserving of this title because of his special ability, Aura. The more damage he takes, the more damage he deals back to the enemy. Ike, on the other hand, is considered for the title because.... Well, because he's IKE. He can kill you at extremely low percentages.

I think Ike is more deserving of the title because he lacks the Aura ability. Ike can have one life remaining, and the enemy can have three. The first life should be easy, as any Ike should have dealt SOME damage damage to the enemy by then. Now all he needs is a gimp/act of pure awesomeness, and he'll be on equal footing, and then he can win, easy-peasy.

But if you look at Lucario....
Lucario gets a bonus by being down two lives, yes. But once you kill them, your bonus is decreased. Kill them again, it goes down even farther. By the last life, you are relying solely on damage to give you that boost. Sure, by now you've taken some. Plenty of it in fact. But being at 100+ damage is risky business for you. You're a mid-tier weight class, remember? Not like that Ike, the heavy mother buster. (SNEER OF JEALOUSSSSYYYY). All it takes is one well timed up-smash from the enemy and, oh look! You're a beautiful star in the sky.

This is even worse for Lucario when you have the ADVANTAGE over the enemy. Lucario is the only character where it gets continuously more difficult to three-stock someone as you increase your lead.
__________________________

Now, I think there needs to be a little more advice on dealing with this ability

At High Percentages, way behind
-Avoid Smashes, Force Palm. All these attacks are powerful, but with ending lag. Of course there are situations to use these things, but that ending lag is awfully risky.

-Avoid Double Team. Yeah, it's great. And yes, that Ike charging his side smash all the way up is awfully tempting. But don't do it. You will screw up. It never fails. You will mis-time Double Team only because everything hinges on it. You may make a mistake, and he won't attack. Once again, there's always a situation for moves, but when you use this move when you're way behind, you're just plain asking for it. And yes, this movie did deserve it's own section.

-Aerials, Aerials, Aerials! Aerials are always awesome. They tend to be as strong/stronger than smashes. Plus, gravity helps you get away from the enemy even when you miss.

-Be all the defense you can be. Keep away from the enemy. Spam those aura spheres! Rack up the damage as much as you can while staying the heck away. But once he's in the kill zone...

-Keep that Aura Sphere charged. Not all the way, necessarily. You're way behind, and he's at a high damage. You don't need to charge it completely. Even better. They'll definitely ignore the aura sphere if it's not charged. The normal thought process is...
Is aura sphere charged?=yes, can kill;=no, damage is of no consequence. Continue with the ****.

-Extreme Speed. Invincibility frames, yes? Use it to escape being cornered. Or something. You'll find a use for it. I think.

In the lead!
Aw yeah, you're in the lead. Let's keep it that way. To start out,

-Use as little lag moves as possible. Once again, rack up damage. But remember, you have decreased damage. The enemy won't be going very far. Keep on him, and turn up the spikey-fisted ****. But make sure you know when to let up.

-Aura Spheres. Don't charge. Toss a little one in the path of his approach, and screw him up. Follow it up with a hard move.

-Projectiles. Is the enemy a projectile user? Is he on one life? Does he have plenty of damage? Well... In that case, flip on the "I AR RETAR-TAR" switch, and run right into those projctiles. Just the weak ones, mind you. Get yourself some damage and decrease your attack's gimpage. Then go for the kill.
_______________________________________

Everything I have said here should be taken with absolutely no merit if you do not believe it to be true. Because it probably isn't. These are just my ideas I have with Lucario. I won't be able to test them out, but I'd like some feedback. Tell me what else needs doing, and/or why my ideas shouldn't be put into practice. Sorry if there's a thread with this already, but I like an actual discussion much more. That and I have no idea what I would search for anyway. That and the guide had a disheartingly small amount of information on the ability.

 

[|RK|]

Um, if Lucario's behind 2 stocks and it's a three stock match, then once he catches up, his killing power is as if he never lost a life. So he can blast the enemies to kingdom come at two stocks behind at low percentages if at full power. At 175% with two stocks behind, a fully charged AS does 36%. Soooo, you'll be at normal power if you're ahead, as if the match just began. You're only handicapped when you are ahead. Oh, and the stock boost/handicap caps off at two stocks.

Second, Ike is NOT the comeback king. Seriously? He is a heavy guy who can kill at low percents. Whoop-de-diddly-doo. Also, if Ike is BEHIND, he's at the same freaking power he had to GET behind. What is going to change? How can you make a comeback if nothing changes? He can kill at low percents, so WHY DIDN'T HE DO THAT BEFORE? You adjust your playing with a Lucario depending on your higher damage percents, so not only does your opponent have to stop someone as powerful as a heavyweight, but they also have to read a new style, which may adjust as Lucarrio kills them. Hence, Lucario is the undisputed comeback king.

Eh.

 

[Ilucamy]

No character gets boosts other than Lucario when they're behind, therefore only Lucario can be the comeback king.

RK Joker speaks the truth. (especially the Whoop-de-diddly-doo part)

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I think Ike is more deserving of the title because he lacks the Aura ability.

Wrong.

Avoid Smashes, Force Palm. All these attacks are powerful, but with ending lag. Of course there are situations to use these things, but that ending lag is awfully risky.

Wrong.

Aerials, Aerials, Aerials! Aerials are always awesome. They tend to be as strong/stronger than smashes.

Wrong.

Plus, gravity helps you get away from the enemy even when you miss.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

Extreme Speed. Invincibility frames, yes? Use it to escape being cornered. Or something. You'll find a use for it. I think.

Wrong.

Is the enemy a projectile user? Is he on one life? Does he have plenty of damage? Well... In that case, flip on the "I AR RETAR-TAR" switch, and run right into those projctiles. Just the weak ones, mind you. Get yourself some damage and decrease your attack's gimpage. Then go for the kill.

Wrong.

Everything I have said here should be taken with absolutely no merit

Right.

dog-man-cat-thing

Get out.

 

[Browny]

lucario boards should be locked (not indefinitely... just for a while) and only the IRC can exist

whos with me

 

[Ilucamy]

Col. Stauffenberg wins this thread.

 

[|RK|]

Aye! Aye! Yeah!

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to spoil the post, but the reason why we associate lucario with the title of "Comeback King" is because many underestimate the boosts he gets, especially the damage multiplier from being behind. Lucario is often overlooked at two instances: at low %'s, and at stock disadvantage. Ike is always reputable for punishing, and I've frankly seen that he keeps a lead overall pretty nicely, and stays relatively the same whether in disadvantage, or advantage. Ike to me is more "the king of punishment", because he really is more of the "Give me a slug... that wasn't a hit, THIS IS!" then proceeds to completely backhand a poor approach/offense. Lucario is always good at snatching the rug from underneath an opponent when they are in the advantage, whether in stock or percentage, and with the options he uses, it's little wonder he is "Comeback King". btw, by numbers, for each stock, he tacks/subtracts a 5th more power to each move, so at 2 stocks behind, the multiplier for stock boost alone is 1.4. The boost is enough to make lucario's return after a seeming defeat significant, but once you stabilize, the stock advantage compensates for the loss in stock boost. Also, a few fatal mistakes, for example, DT is hardly ever used by lucario, there's so much afterlag that it can get almost as punished as a shield break, and if a jab/decently fast tilt activated it, the opponent can still shield it. Oh, and ES has NO invincibility frames. Did I seriously see someone suggest "sandbagging" with lucario against projectiles? That's a big NO-NO. Only if you're up close and they're still firing should you consider that, and not with the intention to get the boost. fsmash isn't very laggy, it has IASA frames for crying out loud (hence why you'll see people do a few sometimes in a row). And gravity doesn't make you fly away from enemies, it's force, or mass times acceleration that does this.
I know this post is opinionated, but we have guides that tell us with the proper metagame strategies involved. Thanks for making a try to contribute, though.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Um, if Lucario's behind 2 stocks and it's a three stock match, then once he catches up, his killing power is as if he never lost a life. So he can blast the enemies to kingdom come at two stocks behind at low percentages if at full power. At 175% with two stocks behind, a fully charged AS does 36%. Soooo, you'll be at normal power if you're ahead, as if the match just began. You're only handicapped when you are ahead. Oh, and the stock boost/handicap caps off at two stocks.

I understand the basics of the ability. What did I say that that made it seem like I didn't?
Also, it completely caps off at two stocks exactly?

Second, Ike is NOT the comeback king. Seriously? He is a heavy guy who can kill at low percents. Whoop-de-diddly-doo. Also, if Ike is BEHIND, he's at the same freaking power he had to GET behind. What is going to change? How can you make a comeback if nothing changes? He can kill at low percents, so WHY DIDN'T HE DO THAT BEFORE? You adjust your playing with a Lucario depending on your higher damage percents, so not only does your opponent have to stop someone as powerful as a heavyweight, but they also have to read a new style, which may adjust as Lucarrio kills them. Hence, Lucario is the undisputed comeback king.

Just my personal opinion on that part. But my line of thinking is: Lucario is not on the heavy side of things. He's just about the dead center of the weight teirs, if I remember correctly. He tends to die at 120 or so damage, meaning the opponent has plenty of time to get him in the killable range. Ike stay alive longer and he's always beastly powerful, even if he takes out the opponent twice without getting hurt.


And I thank Colonel Stauffenburg for the most useful response I have ever received on these forums. I shall craft a trophy for you and mail it to your residence.

@Phil Nye, Thank you for the incredibly polite, and infinitely more helpful post than the others. But, I look at the other guides, and I find that they're not all that helpful in reality. One of the guides (or something somewhere, I know I read it), for instance, says that Lucario has no metagame, and is dependent on the player to create strategy. Other times, the guides span from incredibly vague (Aggresive Lucario- He attacks a lot.) to incredibly specific (hit damages, frame counts, etc.) Being a noob myself, I want to have something that noobs could look at and have a bit more direction, without being too specific. However, it seems people are intent on making sure that I don't know why these strategies wouldn't work with Lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

I understand the basics of the ability. What did I say that that made it seem like I didn't?
Also, it completely caps off at two stocks exactly?






Just my personal opinion on that part. But my line of thinking is: Lucario is not on the heavy side of things. He's just about the dead center of the weight teirs, if I remember correctly. He tends to die at 120 or so damage, meaning the opponent has plenty of time to get him in the killable range. Ike stay alive longer and he's always beastly powerful, even if he takes out the opponent twice without getting hurt.


And I thank Colonel Stauffenburg for the most useful response I have ever received on these forums. I shall craft a trophy for you and mail it to your residence.

Lucario generally gains boost from damage, which naturally accumulates while trying to come back. This usually evens out, and even helps more than the stock boost once he's "back on his feet" in the game. On top of that, Ike has meh linear play, meaning your relying on breaking down your opponent, which is already a slightly disadvantageous situation to begin with. And against an opponent who knows how to outspace, Ike is pretty screwed. So...

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Oi....I don't care about the argument of who is the comeback King, I'm just curious about what's wrong with the portion of the post past that.

....Aaaaaaand bookmarking that picture for future use.

 

[Samuelson]

There are so many more characters that deserve the title of comeback king more then Ike based on what you said. If anybody was going to compete with the comeback king title it would be Wario since his waft can kill at percents below 50 often. DK would even deserve that reward since his smashes are pretty much just as strong as Ike's and much easier to land. MK even deserves it more since he can gimp and edgeguard like crazy, he also racks up damage like a mofo. IC's are better then Ike because if you get grabbed once then you lose a stock. No offense but picking Ike as the comeback king is kind of ******** if you ask me...

 

[Milln]

But, I look at the other guides, and I find that they're not all that helpful in reality. One of the guides (or something somewhere, I know I read it), for instance, says that Lucario has no metagame, and is dependent on the player to create strategy.

...... Did you seriously say that? I truly, TRULY hope you aren't talking about the one on here, because it's clear you haven't even read it. Mine is the only one a Lucario player should ever need(/ego >,>). All other guides are bunk, outdated, and foolish.

 

[phi1ny3]

Also, a few fatal mistakes, for example, DT is hardly ever used by lucario, there's so much afterlag that it can get almost as punished as a shield break, and if a jab/decently fast tilt activated it, the opponent can still shield it. Oh, and ES has NO invincibility frames. Did I seriously see someone suggest "sandbagging" with lucario against projectiles? That's a big NO-NO. Only if you're up close and they're still firing should you consider that, and not with the intention to get the boost. fsmash isn't very laggy, it has IASA frames for crying out loud (hence why you'll see people do a few sometimes in a row). And gravity doesn't make you fly away from enemies, it's force, or mass times acceleration that does this.
I know this post is opinionated, but we have guides that tell us with the proper metagame strategies involved. Thanks for making a try to contribute, though.

Read this, these are probably the grossest errors of your post, but there were some bits I agreed with/ were opinionated so I couldn't say "NO U!" to it.

...... Did you seriously say that? I truly, TRULY hope you aren't talking about the one on here, because it's clear you haven't even read it. Mine is the only one a Lucario player should ever need(/ego >,>). All other guides are bunk, outdated, and foolish.

You make Phil's guide sad . I'm not oudated, foolish (ok maybe a bit goofy), or bunk, am I?
lol jk

 

[Milln]

Read this, these are probably the grossest errors of your post, but there were some bits I agreed with/ were opinionated so I couldn't say "NO U!" to it.

You make Phil's guide sad . I'm not oudated, foolish (ok maybe a bit goofy), or bunk, am I?
lol jk

Hm? Your guide to wha--Oh! Playstyles! Lawlalwlaw, I mean General Lucario guides, Ph1lly. =o Yours is indepth about a specific aspect of Lucario.

 

[Kitamerby]

So he can blast the enemies to kingdom come at two stocks behind at low percentages if at full power. At 175% with two stocks behind, a fully charged AS does 36%

...The only problem with this is that it's invalid since if you're two stocks behind and at 175%, there's a 95% chance you're getting creamed and you won't win anyways.



On another note, I believe he's the only character with an actual EXAMPLE of him truly making a spectacular comeback (so far). NinjaLink vs. Azen at some big tournament finals, I believe Azen made a 3-stock comeback and won.

 

[phi1ny3]

Hm? Your guide to wha--Oh! Playstyles! Lawlalwlaw, I mean General Lucario guides, Ph1lly. =o Yours is indepth about a specific aspect of Lucario.

Oh yes, in General guides, yours can't be beat! M2K tried, but couldn't maintain the powah, but Milln was truly "wave guided". Seriously though, I love how you get in more technical aspects in your guide, it's gives it enough to actually let more veteran lucarios look back on it. And of course, Inner fire for amazing-tier!

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

@Infi-tan
Now now, I'm not here to demolish any egos. But your guide says very little about the Aura ability aside from what it basically does and it's numerical data. Even adding in what Phil said (The damage increase is vastly underestimated) would help.

@Phil Nye, ze Science Guy
Sandbagging-?
IASA frames-?
So you think that if you're in dead last, you should focus on using aura sphere's and staying away, like I said?
And I believe it was you, Phil, who was confused by what I said about using gravity to get away when you're way behind. I meant that by using aerials, you can't be as easily punished. If you miss with an aerial, or something else happens, you aren't standing in one spot waiting for lag to wear off. While aerials can be punished, I think it would give you more leniency to screw up in the air than on the ground.

EDIT: Found your guide.

 

[Milln]

@Infi-tan
Now now, I'm not here to demolish any egos. But your guide says very little about the Aura ability aside from what it basically does and it's numerical data. Even adding in what Phil said (The damage increase is vastly underestimated) would help.

......

So what you just said is.

"Milln, your guide doesn't say anything about Aura except for what it does and how the modifiers work." ..... What? You don't make sense and judging from your other posts on other boards that I sifted through, you're very new to the game (how does Marth's Shield Breaker worrrrrk). Please lurk and refrain from posting nonsense topics where everyone tells you that you're wrong. It's recommended that you actually read the stickies instead of sift through them and claim that you've read them.

 

[phi1ny3]

@Infi-tan
Now now, I'm not here to demolish any egos. But your guide says very little about the Aura ability aside from what it basically does and it's numerical data. Even adding in what Phil said (The damage increase is vastly underestimated) would help.

@Phil Nye, ze Science Guy
Sandbagging-?
IASA frames-?
So you think that if you're in dead last, you should focus on using aura sphere's and staying away, like I said?
And I believe it was you, Phil, who was confused by what I said about using gravity to get away when you're way behind. I meant that by using aerials, you can't be as easily punished. If you miss with an aerial, or something else happens, you aren't standing in one spot waiting for lag to wear off. While aerials can be punished, I think it would give you more leniency to screw up in the air than on the ground.

EDIT: Found your guide.

Sandbagging: v. Slang term for the process in which a character deliberately tries to damage himself without retaliating or avoiding the damage, particularly with lucario.
IASA frames: (Interruptable As Soon As frames) n. Frames in which the ending animation can be canceled into a different animation not part of the attack, particularly notable in marth/MK dtilt.
Against a pro player, punishing aerials is almost as easy as punishing ground attacks, unless you space correctly and bait bad reactions, you will be at risk from all sorts of things.

 

[|RK|]

Mmmm, but attacks like Lucario's D-air pause your momentum, so if you miss, expect to get punished anyways. Also, you're waiting for the attack frames to end, not the lag. Out of N-air, even double jumped, its lasting hitbox keeps you from getting to a good position either way. No offenses, but maybe you should play with Lucario for more than a day before attempting to make a guide. He has quite the learning curve, dont'cha know.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Thank you for the definitions, Phil, along with everything else you've told me.

@RK Joker
I wouldn't ever plan on using a momentum canceling move like that right next to the enemy, that'd just be durn silly of me! But I don't understand what you're saying about the Nair. The sentence is all there, but I don't know what you mean.

And this thread was, by no means, intended specifically as a guide. I formatted it as such (and mentioned it), hoping that I might be able to edit it with whatever was said by the real Lucario players. I had no such luck, but my original purpose of understanding the character a bit better has been achieved.


@Infi-tan,
Yes, I am new. I apologize for offending you in such a manner.

 

[Kitamerby]

Mmmm, but attacks like Lucario's D-air pause your momentum, so if you miss, expect to get punished anyways. Also, you're waiting for the attack frames to end, not the lag. Out of N-air, even double jumped, its lasting hitbox keeps you from getting to a good position either way. No offenses, but maybe you should play with Lucario for more than a day before attempting to make a guide. He has quite the learning curve, dont'cha know.

If you get punished for using Dair, it's because you were either outranged, hit a shield, they charged their usmash before releasing it, or they just plain hit you from the side/above, which means that using it was a mistake in the first place.


Also, if you're using Nair and you're planning on staying in the air long enough for it to finish, you're doing it wrong. Nair has almost no landing lag, which is why it's useful, aside from the fact that it's our only aerial that anyone should intentionally fastfall with, which makes it doubly useful combined with the no landing lag factor.

But honestly, he has a point. Aerials are almost always harder to punish than ground moves due to the fact that you can move away during them and use them while retreating.

 

[Milln]

@Infi-tan,
Yes, I am new. I apologize for offending you in such a manner.

Why does everyone think they offend me when I point out that they're wrong? >,> Seriously. They must not know Milln and how difficult it is to upset him.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Why does everyone think they offend me when I point out that they're wrong? >,> Seriously. They must not know Milln and how difficult it is to upset him.

So basically, this is nothing compared to what's in store for me....

 

[Kitamerby]

So basically, this is nothing compared to what's in store for me....

More like there's nothing in store for you other than us correcting your wrongs and helping you fix your false information.

The Luc boards are chill like that.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

I've been on forums before! There's no way that's true! Plus, this is the internetz. No one is nice on the internets.

 

[Milln]

I've been on forums before! There's no way that's true! Plus, this is the internetz. No one is nice on the internets.

Lucario boards. Nuff said. Cease feigning disbelief.

 

[|RK|]

That's a lie. We're all cool here. I apologize if my earlier post seemed rude. I was going to put that, but I just shrugged it off at put "eh" instead. Trust me, hang around these boards more, and you'll see what we're like. It's describable as a family. Believe it or not. My response may have seemed over the top, but look back and see that I was merely correcting you.

@Kita: I realize aerials are harder to punish. Thus I mentioned the only two that if missed could be...detrimental...

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

I realize aerials are harder to punish. Thus I mentioned the only two that if missed could be...detrimental...

Now, see, that's where I lost you. How detrimental could the Nair be? I'm under the assumption that you jump at an opponent who's in the air, and around the arch of your jump, you pass through them while using Nair. That's how I'm imagining it. How does the Nair end in a "detrimental" situation?



And sorry if I assumed you were being an *******. I should have gotten to sleep a bit ago.

 

[Samuelson]

Alright, i officially quit the lucario boards. I'm not gonna be posting that much in here thanks to morons like Sonicdahedgie.

 

[Browny]

lucario boards should be locked (not indefinitely... just for a while) and only the IRC can exist

whos with me

sign my imaginary petition Sam

 

[tedward2000]

Its just a little misguidance and sonic poisoning, thats all.
A little bit o chocolate, reading the threads and playing the ever-so-sexy chr we call lucario will fix all of that.
-t2

 

[Kitamerby]

That's a lie. We're all cool here. I apologize if my earlier post seemed rude. I was going to put that, but I just shrugged it off at put "eh" instead. Trust me, hang around these boards more, and you'll see what we're like. It's describable as a family. Believe it or not. My response may have seemed over the top, but look back and see that I was merely correcting you.

@Kita: I realize aerials are harder to punish. Thus I mentioned the only two that if missed could be...detrimental...

Dair is probably among the hardest to punish moves in the game. It comes out in 4 frames, outranges most other attacks from any below angle, halts your momentum, virtually no afterlag, if any.

Nair shouldn't be used alone offensively anyways outside of platform pressure, so I don't understand why in the world you're mentioning it. You might as well put Uair and Bair on that list, because Uair can't hit below/to the side, and Bair won't hit in front of you.

If anything, Fair is probably the most punishable aerial. It has quite a bit of landing lag, only slightly above average range and priority, etc, quite unsafe on block unless retreated, etc.

 

[Flamingo]

I officially hate Lucario. Turtling scrubs think they are sooo good. (Not you guys, I'm just ranting.)

They dodge all over the place and Fsmash spam.. and guess what? No ending lag on the Fsmash..

 

[Milln]

I officially hate Lucario. Turtling scrubs think they are sooo good. (Not you guys, I'm just ranting.)

They dodge all over the place and Fsmash spam.. and guess what? No ending lag on the Fsmash..

Hold on there, pedobear icon. Fsmash definitely has ending lag, but it also has IASA frames.

Also, the scrubcarios you're fighting aren't real Lucario mains if they "dodge all over the place and fsmash spam". They make Milln sad.

 

[phi1ny3]

Alright, i officially quit the lucario boards. I'm not gonna be posting that much in here thanks to morons like Sonicdahedgie.

If anything, Fair is probably the most punishable aerial. It has quite a bit of landing lag, only slightly above average range and priority, etc, quite unsafe on block unless retreated, etc.

But fair comes out really fast, and if you space well, it makes a decent wall, and if you do a rising fair, you don't have to worry about landing lag, plus the hitbox comes out near the time of the starting animation, and lasts for a bit. Yeah, using it badly will get it punished, but I think it's actually not easy to punish when used properly in the pending matchup.

 

[|RK|]

Once again, if missed could be punished. If you silly-like use N-air w/out fastfalling and you miss, you can be punished. If for some (odd) reason, you miss D-air while a grounded enemy is right next to you, the halted momentum would be detrimental.

 

[Sonicdahedgie]

Once again, if missed could be punished. If you silly-like use N-air w/out fastfalling and you miss, you can be punished. If for some (odd) reason, you miss D-air while a grounded enemy is right next to you, the halted momentum would be detrimental.

Ah, I understand wt you were saying now. However, missing in general is detrimental. I thought you were saying it would led to getting *****, but I didn't understand how. But basically, "Make sure you hit."

 

[|RK|]

<(^_^)> Bingo!