The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Sighrax]

IMHO, this is the bottom line.

There are too many variables (ie Mind Games, DI, Stage Selection, and Innovation) to make a completely reliable tier list. Unfortunately, I think as far as the MLG level selection is concerned, Fox does well on almost all of those stages, that is why he is on top.

Another variable is low tier. Inexperience vs a low tier is not a good thing. Like Chu Dat said in the "what separates pros from beginners" thread, the unknown is always a threat. That's why new players can come out of nowhere and prove themselves. I'm not saying playing a low tier character vs everyone will get you a 1st place finish, I'm saying it can help against people who are not used to it.

Smash has come to a point where it's somewhat difficult to only have one main throughout an entire tournament. It seems like everyone has to have a secondary character (usually in the top tier if their main isn't).

People just need to realize that yes, certain characters have certain advantages in the game, and some characters have advantages only against others. But the several variables can help one overcome the tier list.

:I

 

[Samochan]

Hmm that is one instance of a Peach winning. I am neutral as far as the arguement goes, but posting a video as an arguement is just as bad as posting SSBM theory in regards to the match up.

I agree to this. The fact is, that Marth has the advantage because of his superior range and Peach can't do much against a good marth that can and will swat away turnips as well. Using a match as to back up an argument is not valid enough, Mrobinson587. In ssbm, anything can happen on a match (for example, that stitchface in the end). I know for a fact that for example, KrazyKirbyKid has beaten KoreanDJ's Fox with a Kirby on a money match. Does that mean Kirby is good against Fox? No, it doesn't. Fox is a Kirby counter and Marth is a peach counter because peach just lacks the range and speed to deal with Marth, no doubt. But even though Marth counters peach, it doesn't automaticly mean Marth will win. When it comes to Marth vs. peach, mindgames mean a lot, but it doesn't take away the fact that Marth >> Peach when it comes to range. :/

 

[Mrobinson587]

i was trying to make the point that marth isn't as much as a peach counter as people make it out to be.
People were making it sound like giga bowser vs pichu or something.

"marth has this, this, this, and this over peach and all peach has is this"

Peach does alright. Just look at how close the matches were, which was the real point of showing the match and referencing the wife vs ken.

Sighrax is very correct. the second paragraph hits it dead on. MLG wise fox does the majority of the playing and is fairly successful

To make a truly accurate tier list, every charecter would have to have there own tier list yes? no?

i noticed i seem to think ken=marth though LOL

 

[BloodTide]

well im sure if uyou had 50 ppl and made 25 be peach and 25 be marth and let them face eachother im pretty confident that the marths will win most matches. Plus saying, o but if you r skilled you can beat anyone with any character, doesn't make sense because its based on the character not the person controlling them.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Fox does well on almost all of those stages, that is why he is on top.

:I

Fox isn't that good.

When was the last time a Fox won a tournament???

Anybody?

Shiek and Falco on the other hand...

 

[_JAS_]

I think its low tier and down

 

[BigRick]

2) Between 80 and about 150 damage, Peach will not die from anything Marth can do to her that is not a tipper.

Hmm... you better watch out for that up-tilt.

Marth should only be considered as a soft counter to Peach, which means that Marth only has a slight advantage over her in the matchup. It is true that Marth outranges Peach like crazy, but a smart Peach will weave in, weave out of Marth's sword range. Turnips help Peach alot in this matchup, because they allow her to harass Marth from a safer range which might give you an opening.

When Peach goes past Marth's sword range and gets very close to him, then the matchup goes into Peach's favor. One of Peach's main strentghs is the stupid priority that she has in most of her short range moves, and she has a nice repertoire of them, which allows her to put pressure and the hurt on her opponents.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Anyone who honestly thinks that Peach has an advantage in the peach vs. marth matchup at this point knows next to nothing of high level play.

Let's look at the basic structure of the matchup. Marth's primary focus is keeping Peach at approximately at tipper range, or possibly just outside it. From this "sweet spot" range, Marth has complete and utter dominance of the match. His moves (fair, ftilt, utilt) are fast enough to be unpunishable and have enough range to easily keep Peach at bay. On the other hand, Peach has to either be far enough to pull and throw turnips (praying for a zombie/beamsword, because marth can swat anything else out of the air with a fair while advancing on her) or in close. Peach has difficulty getting in on Marth because of his tipper range - even if the attack doesn't tip her, odds are it will still hit her if she's trying to move in. At best, Peach has to fake Marth out to get in on him and do any damage whatsoever. Couple Marth's excellent ranged attacks and his insane grab and getting in on him at all is quite a feat. From this point, Peach has to do as much damage as possible without letting Marth get away, which can be quite difficult given how poorly her moves combo. Marth can get all sorts of damage out of fair combos or grab combos - at 0 to 15 damage he can even put peach in a situation where her DI determines whether she gets chain thrown or tipper fsmashed. Add that to other combos that can often actually lead to low damage kills... I'd say Marth has the advantage here.

Perhaps the argument about Peach having an advantage over Marth is one of recovery, not direct combat. Fine, let's look at recovery. Proper DI will allow Marth to recover from hits at approximately the same damage as Peach - possibly even at higher damage, as Marth's higher weight and falling speed allow DI to factor in and keep him from exploding off the side and top easier.

On the other hand, lets look at edge guarding. Peach can edge guard Marth by... oh wait. Her downsmash gets outprioritized by his up B... pretty much any aerial attack can be intercepted with a fair or dair... he can time his up B early or late to either knock peach off the edge or recover after she's climbed when she is edge hogging. On the other hand, Marth can... pretty much force peach to go anywhere. Force her to the ledge, where he can easily hit her out of any recovery method on reaction. Force her up and over, where he can follow underneath her since she moves slow and hit her as she lands.

Speaking of aerial games, Marth can pretty much completely neuter all of Peach's aerials with spacing and proper use of his own. Peach's air slowness haunts her again. Any hovering in attacks become extremely vulnerable, especially since hitting her out of her hover makes peach that much more vulnerable to combos and edge guarding. Peach can punish Marth in the air... only when he's directly above her. Not a situation that most good Marth players will allow, but Peach does have the advantage when Marth jumps high enough for her to get under him.

So what are Peach's advantages over Marth? Two things: 1) His shield can't fully take a downsmash (though his light shield can), leading her to get a one hit downsmash if she can get in on him when he's shielding. 2) Between 80 and about 150 damage, Peach will not die from anything Marth can do to her that is not a tipper.

What are Marth's advantages over Peach? Complete air superiority, superior edge guarding, superior spacing game, better combos, more speed... the list goes on. Oh, and he's unquestionably favored on three of the six "neutral" stages, while Peach is slightly aided by only one.

Looking at the matchup, I'm hard pressed to find any way to argue that Marth isn't a hard counter for Peach.

It seems the Peach Marth matchup is like the Fox Shiek matchup.

All Shiek players whine and cry about Fox being a counter to thier pathetic character.

While tournament placings say otherwise.

Marth definitely has an advantage, but he doesn't counter her.

Peach still has her brokeness to help aid her in this fight.

Peach has no counter.

Also, your whole argument is valid except the recovery part.

 

[ZoSo]

Fox isn't that good.

When was the last time a Fox won a tournament???

Anybody?

Shiek and Falco on the other hand...

The last tournament I can think of that was won by a Sheik was SAVII.

I don't think the tier list should be based off tournament results to begin with, but you could just as easily say: "When was the last time a (insert character who isn't Marth) won a tournament?"

That's the problem with these kinds of lists: They rank the players, rather than the characters.

 

[BigRick]

It's not based only on tournament results, its based on the metagame (tournament results, counterpicks, counter strategies that have been developped).

 

[leafgreen386]

That's the problem with these kinds of lists: They rank the players, rather than the characters.

One player doesn't change the tier list. Don't even bring up Chu. He isn't the only good IC player out there.

 

[Aiser]

I think he was refering to Ken since Ken is the only one who can really use Marth and constantly win MLGS with him.

 

[MarthHasASword]

The player might have a little influence on the chars position; i was watching a few bombsoilder videos, and was still amazed at the rate he played at.

 

[StripesOrBars]

The player might have a little influence on the chars position; i was watching a few bombsoilder videos FOR THE FIRST TIME, and was still amazed at the rate he played at.

That's better.

 

[ZoSo]

Obviously, I wasn't suggesting that Marth should be #1 on the tier list. My point was that if Fox should move down because he hasn't been winning tournaments, Marth should almost certainly move up.

"Don't even bring up Chu. He isn't the only good IC player out there."

I would argue otherwise.

"It's not based only on tournament results, its based on the metagame (tournament results, counterpicks, counter strategies that have been developped)."

I don't think tournament results should affect the list at all. I don't care what else goes into it. If we base the tier list on tournament results, we will have to reevaluate it after every major tournament and it will invariably be affected by the skill of players.

Here's an example:

The highest-ranking Falco at OC2 was Forward at 13th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff. If we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

The highest-ranking Falco at MLG Orlando was Dope at 9th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Samus. Again, if we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

If the tier list was based SOLELY on matchups, I could see Falco remaining where he is or even moving up, but if we're going to seriously suggest that the tier list is, in any way, based on the results of tournaments, Falco should move down.

If anybody can explain to me why Falco should not move down on the current tier list, I will gladly withdraw my argument.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Obviously, I wasn't suggesting that Marth should be #1 on the tier list. My point was that if Fox should move down because he hasn't been winning tournaments, Marth should almost certainly move up.

"Don't even bring up Chu. He isn't the only good IC player out there."

I would argue otherwise.

"It's not based only on tournament results, its based on the metagame (tournament results, counterpicks, counter strategies that have been developped)."

I don't think tournament results should affect the list at all. I don't care what else goes into it. If we base the tier list on tournament results, we will have to reevaluate it after every major tournament and it will invariably be affected by the skill of players.

Here's an example:

The highest-ranking Falco at OC2 was Forward at 13th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff. If we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

The highest-ranking Falco at MLG Orlando was Dope at 9th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Samus. Again, if we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

If the tier list was based SOLELY on matchups, I could see Falco remaining where he is or even moving up, but if we're going to seriously suggest that the tier list is, in any way, based on the results of tournaments, Falco should move down.

If anybody can explain to me why Falco should not move down on the current tier list, I will gladly withdraw my argument.

I completely agree.

 

[nookrulz]

I completely agree.

then why do you keep bringing up the fact that fox hasn't won a tournament since MLG Philly?

 

[StripesOrBars]

then why do you keep bringing up the fact that fox hasn't won a tournament since MLG Philly?

Reread his post then reread every single post I've posted.


If the tier list is based on tourney placings then fox should move down and Marth up, which is what I say and what ZoSo just said.

 

[iowasmasher]

And tell me what Sheik has been doing that well that deserves the third spot?.

Where have you been? shiek has probably some of the best tilts in the game, aside from ganons uptilt(kills with 1 hit at around 50 %damage), an amazing F-air, good u-air. and stripesorbars, have you ever even PLAYED a good fox? like ken, hes proficient, and kunningkitsune, even chillin? no?didnt think so


I agree with chozenone

 

[ZoSo]

^Lol.

DooDah: That's not exactly what I was getting at. There's something I'm trying to illustrate, but I'm waiting for somebody to answer my question.

 

[REØ]

ganon's utilt is one of the worst moves in the game...

 

[Nightmare KoRn Kid]

IDK what we're all talking aboout

But recently AT TOURNEY Azen (if you dunno...he's amazing) played KM (ohh yeah, he's amazing too) in tourney

Azen stayed peach, the entire tourney he went peach.


KM had the advantage, being in winners finals, and Azen being in losers... KM happes to be able to use Marth pretty **** good.

KM loses the first set 3/2

KM loses second set 3/1

Peach is **** good, IDC who she's against... She's **** good. Marth or shiek, it doesn't really matter... she's one of the cheapest and thus, best, characters ever. IMO, and due to my given "proof".

IN NO WAY DOES AZEN BEING #5 GIVE HIM THAT HUGE OF AN ADVANTAGE IF ANY AGAINST KM BECAUSE HE'S NUMBER (IDk exactly so I'll guess >.>) 10! (if you think it does then look at some brackets and see people placed at like 7 beating number one, and what not)

 

[JBM falcon08]

^ yeah this is true, but all i have to say is that azen is too good. its just azen.

i truly think since sheik has something over marth, and she does well against every character, stat wise she is best. peach is good, but overall shouldn't beat marth's.

sheik
marth
fox
peach
falco
falcon

IMO they deserve top six, discuss and argue plz.

 

[K20AFoozbal]

Remember, as the King himself stated on the first page of this thread, it's not just about one guy, it's about their advancement in the tournament scene. Just because one person is absolutely amazing with someone, doesn't mean that the character is top teir. This list simply shows us a player's tendency to choose characters, in addition as to what characters (by majority) do well at tournaments. I'm happy to see Doc climb the teir a little higher, and sure, maybe I'm biased and think Doc should be top teir, but you don't see me arguing with a post by saying "wtf!?!?!?!? this teir list sucks because _______(insert character name here) isn't top teir!!!" Please, move beyond your own opinion and think of the people that made this teir list and what it ACTUALLY represents, not what you think it does. The peoplethat made it know the game as well as any of us do, so arguing for or against some character being at the top really is pointless.

i'm not arguing that at all. that's what i don't think y'all seem to get. i'm only saying that peach is a good match up for marth. because... if ken is the best marth in the world and he still loses every once in a while to peaches then it's safe to say that peach is a good counter for marth. when played well and skillfully.

it was never about which character was better, it was about what was a good match. and OBVIOUSLY marth and peach are good match ups. thx

 

[REØ]

peach is not a good counter for marth you got it the other way, and marth beats peach when played well and skillfully

 

[K20AFoozbal]

peach is not a good counter for marth you got it the other way, and marth beats peach when played well and skillfully

if that is the case... the why... for the last time... would a peach beat KEN as marth... explain? seriously, cuz you're not makin sense.

 

[Deleted member]

marth ***** peach no questions asked.

actually, does any character besides marth win large tournaments anymore? Why isn't marth top of top yet?

 

[REØ]

if that is the case... the why... for the last time... would a peach beat KEN as marth... explain? seriously, cuz you're not makin sense.

um how many peach's beat kens marth like 10? yay for them, now how many times has kens marth beat there peach's, um close to a thousand times, yay, problem resolved

 

[K20AFoozbal]

shieks are winning more than marths as of late, and falcos and foxs are still up there with it.

so yea marths beat peach's a lot more than the other way around, but admit it, it's a good match up. better than most others. alright? just cuz you play marth doesn't make marth uber. no more macho marth is great and just humble your head and say "ok, peach is good against marth. not better. not exactly worse. just good."

****...

 

[mcc]

marths beat peaches way more than peaches beat marths, but the match is equal? i don't understand where you got that logic

 

[Mrobinson587]

OMFG maybe people should read the past few pages and look at our arguments stating that
Marth v Peach is not a rapefest for Marth

Marth05 remember we are looking at all marth's not just ken. (like i said sometimes i think marth=ken LOL)

UmbreonMow it is not a rapefest for marth when matches between higher skilled players commonly end with 1 stock differences that go either way

mcc our "logic" came from looking at match results not charecter statistics

K20AFoozbal
Nightmare KoRn Kid
maybe we shouldn't try to explain it.

dear god im considering PMing ken husband or fast like tree and asking them to defend that it is not rapage. (or even wife or somebody) . Please save me from bugging them.

 

[Aiser]

Its not a **** fest but marth has an advantage, and Husband will probably say marth counters peach because he knows how to deal with peach I mean hes teammates with one of the best peaches in country =x

 

[Mrobinson587]

Yes! Somebody that gets the point!

Marth has advantages but doesn't **** peach.

Yay my headache is subsiding...

(*pos rep aiser*)

 

[flaco]

Iagree aiser marth does have the advantage but husband beat ken with peach and am like the hell but it happend is all about skill the tier list dont matter.

 

[BigRick]

You guys should read each other's posts. The fact that Marth has an advantage over Peach, but doesn't **** has been stated in the last 3 pages... (+rep?)

I don't think tournament results should affect the list at all. I don't care what else goes into it. If we base the tier list on tournament results, we will have to reevaluate it after every major tournament and it will invariably be affected by the skill of players.

Here's an example:

The highest-ranking Falco at OC2 was Forward at 13th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff. If we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

The highest-ranking Falco at MLG Orlando was Dope at 9th. At least one of the following characters placed above him: Marth, ICs, Fox, Sheik, Samus. Again, if we're not taking skill or inconsistency into account at all, Falco should move down.

If the tier list was based SOLELY on matchups, I could see Falco remaining where he is or even moving up, but if we're going to seriously suggest that the tier list is, in any way, based on the results of tournaments, Falco should move down.

If anybody can explain to me why Falco should not move down on the current tier list, I will gladly withdraw my argument.

Gj ZoSo for pointing out the weakness of a Tier list based on the metagame. A game's meta will change constantly... so if the tier list is based on it, you will have to update it much more often than a regular Tier list to keep the most accurate possible.

That's probably why communities of other fighting games would rather release a Tier list based on character strength or make a counter chart. If there's a lot of people working on it, they are harder to make (since people will probably argue about which factors are more important in determining a character's strentgh... power, speed, stamina, variety of good attack options) but at the end they are more rewarding because they give more factual information and less estimation.

So in a real tier list (based on strength), Sheik would probably be ranked 1st. I feel that I don't need to explain myself here, it is probably stated in plenty of other threads. But right now, SBR has ranked her 3rd when you take account of our metagame. I would kinda agree, since if a Sheik participates in a tourney that has Chu Dat in it, he will probably have to face him when getting closer to the finals, which would severely lower his chances of winning. It would be the same for Falco, so I'd say that Chu Dat is also one of the reasons why Fox is number 1 (lol he's dat good).

However, in the next months, we might see more Sheiks win more tourneys, and more Sheiks that are good against the space animals, like CJ... so Sheik's placement could easily go higher.

 

[y2kbakura]

Iagree aiser marth does have the advantage but husband beat ken with peach and am like the hell but it happend is all about skill the tier list dont matter.

wife beat ken with peach an it was only one macht, ken crushed him with fox

*edit* BTW Fox crushes peach, in a regular macht no in a technical macht yes
its called drillshinewaveshineupsmash

P.S i did not space that last word for a reason

 

[nookrulz]

Yeah, Fox has the advantage imo. slight, but it's there. fox gets easy kills with the combo you mentioned, but peach can do nasty damage and gets some early kills also. Peach has dsmash, which is good because Fox is pressing down so much during the match, and also chainthrow and pretty good edgeguarding. I'd just give Fox the slightest of edges because he gets easier early kills. if pressed, though, i guess i'd call it even. neither of them counters the other, imo.

 

[x1372]

Ok, people who are posting match videos or match results clearly don't understand the point of a tier chart, and don't understand the basis of what characters are supposed to be compared on.

Tier charts are designed to show what character is overall better. This is not based on tournament results. I'll repeat that one, since you don't seem to get it. Tiers are NOT based on tournament results. Tiers are based on game theory. If character A (Fox) has some extremely broken move that can be comboed into and out of, that character is going to be top tier. If character B (shiek) has a significant number of really good moves that easily combo into each other, has chain grabs, and can kill out of a grab at high damage, that's going to put that character pretty dang high.

If we're talking Marth vs. Peach, we're talking a specific matchup. We aren't referring to tier placement, because tier placement is more general. In a specific matchup, we're weighing a character's practical strengths and weaknesses as they apply directly to the other character. When we do this for the Marth vs. Peach matchup, Marth unarguably comes out on top. Once again, tourney results do NOT factor into this - match videos may be used to illustrate how some of these things work, but when it comes down to it its based on game theory. Yes, of course there are other factors. Mind games are THE primary factor in high level smash, and gues s what? They aren't looked at at all in this, aside from the fact that certain situations can be used to force them through guessing games.

The fact is, when the chips are down, the Peach player has to win mind games a significantly higher percentage of the time than the Marth player to even stand a chance in this matchup. Marth counters Peach, in that he can do far more off his mind game wins or other direct clashes than Peach can off her advantages. Pointing out a match or a tourney set doesn't change this fact in the slightest. I could just as easily point out dozens of high level matches that go either way, that doesn't prove anything. Perhaps its even MORE telling that the generally accepted best Peach player in the nation, Vidjogamer, focuses on his Marth more often than his Peach nowadays, because, and I quote: "Peach just isn't good enough."

If you honestly think that you can counter logical arguments by posting a match video, more power to you, but don't fool yourself into thinking that proves anything. And for those people talking about marth, or fox, or whoever winning tournaments - when's the last time a Peach won a major tournament? And if you're using vidjo as an example, make sure he was actually playing his peach more than half of the time.

*edited notes*
Yeah, Marth's uptilt is a threat, but with proper DI it usually doesn't kill until around 150. That being said, once you get close to that mark yes, that becomes the most dangerous move in his arsenal.

Anyone who's talking about Peach having "easy kill moves" I challenge you to name them. Assume proper DI on the part of her opponent. With good DI, most of Peach's kill moves get completely neutered.

 

[Sighrax]

Fox isn't that good.

When was the last time a Fox won a tournament???

Anybody?

Shiek and Falco on the other hand...

Fox IS that good. I'd say that even though he might not win tournies, the majority of people in the top 8 results-wise play Fox. Just because he doesn't take top honors doesn't mean he's not a good character, by any means. That's like saying Falcon or Samus isn't good.

Sheik won SAVII and that's about it. Like I said before, it's all about character matchups. Isai beat Ken with straight Sheik at MLG Orlando, but I don't think he would have won if he played Sheik against everyone, including Chillin.

It's ridiculous to say that Fox "isn't that good".


"Anyone who's talking about Peach having "easy kill moves" I challenge you to name them. Assume proper DI on the part of her opponent. With good DI, most of Peach's kill moves get completely neutered."

When opponent is off the stage: Nair Bair Fair Turnip
On the stage: Fthrow

 

[ZoSo]

Tier charts are designed to show what character is overall better. This is not based on tournament results. I'll repeat that one, since you don't seem to get it. Tiers are NOT based on tournament results. Tiers are based on game theory.

Read the ****ing thread. We have established numerous times that the current tier list is, in fact, based on tournament results.