-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The 2006-2008 Tier list
- Thread starter Mic_128
- Start date
- Status
Don't be so sure about that. Captain Jack's Sheik counters Foxes >_>
Ask Mew2king if you don't believe me.
Ask Mew2king if you don't believe me.
BigRick
Smash Master
Sheik and Fox are even, so the outcome would be decided by the players' styles and skill levels.
flaco
The Terminator
Yes very tru I agree with bigrick hands down bro.I main marth but the expirence I have seeing and trying fox against sheik they are even is just all about skill level.
PerfectSickness
Smash Cadet
To mood4food: I agree with you man, but when you talk about counters you are probably implying sumtin like:
ICs > Sheik
Sheik > Marth
Marth > Peach
QUOTE]
I think sheik is barely a counter for marth if one at all. Maybe on some stages but marth is never and easy match for sheik if both players are truly skilled. Usually counter matches arent too hard ya know
Samochan
Smash Master
Um, Sheik >>> Marth because sheik is fast enough to avoid Marth sword and punish, his Up B has lots of invincibility frames, fair kills marth's recovery, chaingrab... and believe me, counter matches can be extremely tough, that's why on tournament matches at high level, the character you play with doesn't matter anymore, but who you counter/get countered by do. :/I think sheik is barely a counter for marth if one at all. Maybe on some stages but marth is never and easy match for sheik if both players are truly skilled. Usually counter matches arent too hard ya know
NJ'zFinest
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 643
You can only get out of the CG after 30% ish, the sheik can just **** with combos from there >_>
NJ'zFinest
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 643
I mean Marth only (he can escape at 30%).
Link just gets ***** by her CG, it's a free stock off.
REØ
Smash Lord
NJ'zFinest what happend to your other username?
NJ'zFinest
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2006
- Messages
- 643
Noting happened to it, I just don't use it as much because:
1. foxandfalco...sounds pretty ridiculous
2. I'm actullay better known as "NJ"zFinest" since I've been signing on DC++ with this name for 2 years now.
3. People won't get me confused with this guy named "falcoandfox" who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
4. People don't assume the only characters I use are Fox and Falco. I've been told numerous times things such as "hey, what does foxandfalco know about Link? look at his name..." and what not.
1. foxandfalco...sounds pretty ridiculous
2. I'm actullay better known as "NJ"zFinest" since I've been signing on DC++ with this name for 2 years now.
3. People won't get me confused with this guy named "falcoandfox" who doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
4. People don't assume the only characters I use are Fox and Falco. I've been told numerous times things such as "hey, what does foxandfalco know about Link? look at his name..." and what not.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
What does NJz finest know about Texas? Or ugly??
God that's gay.
On a side note: How can u be Fox AND Falco at the same time???!!
God that's gay.
On a side note: How can u be Fox AND Falco at the same time???!!
BigRick
Smash Master
Power of the h4x... hahaha
K20AFoozbal
Smash Apprentice
wow. good times...
um first of all i'd like to say that finding a tournament in maryland is few and far between. the crew i play with (thought we're not anything big) can't seem to find any in the near future. the nearest one is MLG is NY and your smashality 2 in NJ... which are both 4+ hrs away.
just a reminder: on my post, if you bothered to read most of it you'd see that i said this was a tier list based not solely on tourney results. i wasn't making it to replace the regular one, i was just doing it to see how people would respond.
but maybe i'll be at your smashality tourney. at least i'll do my best to be there. no more hostilities... i'm just trying some opinions out. IMO my tier list is nice. IMO peach would beat marth flat out because she's so broken. IMO fox is nothing compared to falco. i'm entitled to my opinion by seeing these matches.
i'm trying to go to a tourney, so give me a break. there aren't as many in frickin md as you think. take it easy all.
um first of all i'd like to say that finding a tournament in maryland is few and far between. the crew i play with (thought we're not anything big) can't seem to find any in the near future. the nearest one is MLG is NY and your smashality 2 in NJ... which are both 4+ hrs away.
just a reminder: on my post, if you bothered to read most of it you'd see that i said this was a tier list based not solely on tourney results. i wasn't making it to replace the regular one, i was just doing it to see how people would respond.
but maybe i'll be at your smashality tourney. at least i'll do my best to be there. no more hostilities... i'm just trying some opinions out. IMO my tier list is nice. IMO peach would beat marth flat out because she's so broken. IMO fox is nothing compared to falco. i'm entitled to my opinion by seeing these matches.
i'm trying to go to a tourney, so give me a break. there aren't as many in frickin md as you think. take it easy all.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
When TURNIPS are her only attack that can reliably outrange any of Marth's you know something is wrong with your logic.
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
I really think Peach has a good matchup vs Marth.
Marth definitely has an advantage,but hey, at least it's not Fox.
Marth definitely has an advantage,but hey, at least it's not Fox.
mcc
Smash Ace
if marth has the definate advantage, why would peach have a good matchup against him
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
COMMOFDOOM
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2006
- Messages
- 152
correction. two thirds.
mcc
Smash Ace
oh so it's relative to everyone else
though i don't think low tiers should count
though i don't think low tiers should count
REØ
Smash Lord
^ there are way too many fox and falco's running around the place to give marth any breathing room in tourneys
K20AFoozbal
Smash Apprentice
while range counts for a lot, peaches attacks are still stronger than marths and while she may not be better at all times, i agree with stripes... she is definately a good match up and a challenge to boot.
mcc
Smash Ace
which of peach's attacks is stronger than marth's tipper? but even if peach is stronger than marth, she still needs to be in range to attack him
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
REØ
Smash Lord
peachss stitch face is stronger than most of marths moves ^^;
i dont know why people even care about the top tier spaces... i mean of course the lower tiers against the higher tiers usually end up in destruction of the lowers... but when two high/top tier characters fight, it depends completely on the skill of the player, not the character... so basically it comes down to overall high level use, (i mean how many pros use the characters, and how well do they use them?) i think marth should place higher than most, but i think that marth, fox, falco, sheik, and peach, are all very close
REØ
Smash Lord
there are a lot more fox's and falco's than the whole middle tier and bottom tier put together in tournies
K20AFoozbal
Smash Apprentice
the tipper is only one move. peaches Dair will out prioritize marth if it's hit close enough but you'll have a range problem against any character that has a sword and you don't. the butt bombcould help with that, as could the dash-attack and veggies could possibly set up for a combo, if you can actually get through marths projectlie-stop... but peach is a defensive character as i've seen her played so it's a differnt style. it seems that it comes down to playing style and skill level. maybe we'll see this play out in a future tournament somewhere.
REØ
Smash Lord
wtf?? have you ever even been to a tourney
D
Deleted member
Guest
fox falco and peach being popular is a good portion of the reason there are so many marths in the first place. marth feeds off of these characters in brackets.
Lol? no it doesn't, how does her dair do that? uair solves the problem. Marth = disjointed hitbox thus he has more priority.
K20AFoozbal
Smash Apprentice
K everyone... this is where my **** gets proven... I don't know what ranking Wife is but i know that Ken is #1 in the world, right? Well... Ken is at least the best Marth player who has been discovered... and Wife is pretty ****in good with peach...
soooo here you go... actual, video proof of Ken (Marth) vs. Wife (Peach). This is at a Tournament Ken loses the first two rounds then picks up the slack in the final three. see for yourself.
Round 1:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5628526580484082897
Round 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3141928299201874567
Round 3: Ken played Fox and Won... not marth so there's no need to watch it.
Round 4:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5031602225656727621
Round 5:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2869372802261655277
my *** peach isn't a good match against marth... lol. i'm not trying to piss y'all off i'm just trying to make a point. that marth and peach are good counters to eachother. it all depends on how you play and your skill level. It was a close match because they are both great players. end of story thx
soooo here you go... actual, video proof of Ken (Marth) vs. Wife (Peach). This is at a Tournament Ken loses the first two rounds then picks up the slack in the final three. see for yourself.
Round 1:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5628526580484082897
Round 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3141928299201874567
Round 3: Ken played Fox and Won... not marth so there's no need to watch it.
Round 4:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5031602225656727621
Round 5:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2869372802261655277
my *** peach isn't a good match against marth... lol. i'm not trying to piss y'all off i'm just trying to make a point. that marth and peach are good counters to eachother. it all depends on how you play and your skill level. It was a close match because they are both great players. end of story thx
TTemp
Smash Journeyman
Remember, as the King himself stated on the first page of this thread, it's not just about one guy, it's about their advancement in the tournament scene. Just because one person is absolutely amazing with someone, doesn't mean that the character is top teir. This list simply shows us a player's tendency to choose characters, in addition as to what characters (by majority) do well at tournaments. I'm happy to see Doc climb the teir a little higher, and sure, maybe I'm biased and think Doc should be top teir, but you don't see me arguing with a post by saying "wtf!?!?!?!? this teir list sucks because _______(insert character name here) isn't top teir!!!" Please, move beyond your own opinion and think of the people that made this teir list and what it ACTUALLY represents, not what you think it does. The peoplethat made it know the game as well as any of us do, so arguing for or against some character being at the top really is pointless.
nookrulz
Smash Ace
You really can't find any tourneys in Maryland? Are you serious? There was one in rockville this past saturday, and there'll be one at N0D3, wherever in MD that is, next week. Do you even try to find tourneys? Do you ever visit the Tournament Discussion room and actually go into the threads? IMO, that answer is no.
Anyone who honestly thinks that Peach has an advantage in the peach vs. marth matchup at this point knows next to nothing of high level play.
Let's look at the basic structure of the matchup. Marth's primary focus is keeping Peach at approximately at tipper range, or possibly just outside it. From this "sweet spot" range, Marth has complete and utter dominance of the match. His moves (fair, ftilt, utilt) are fast enough to be unpunishable and have enough range to easily keep Peach at bay. On the other hand, Peach has to either be far enough to pull and throw turnips (praying for a zombie/beamsword, because marth can swat anything else out of the air with a fair while advancing on her) or in close. Peach has difficulty getting in on Marth because of his tipper range - even if the attack doesn't tip her, odds are it will still hit her if she's trying to move in. At best, Peach has to fake Marth out to get in on him and do any damage whatsoever. Couple Marth's excellent ranged attacks and his insane grab and getting in on him at all is quite a feat. From this point, Peach has to do as much damage as possible without letting Marth get away, which can be quite difficult given how poorly her moves combo. Marth can get all sorts of damage out of fair combos or grab combos - at 0 to 15 damage he can even put peach in a situation where her DI determines whether she gets chain thrown or tipper fsmashed. Add that to other combos that can often actually lead to low damage kills... I'd say Marth has the advantage here.
Perhaps the argument about Peach having an advantage over Marth is one of recovery, not direct combat. Fine, let's look at recovery. Proper DI will allow Marth to recover from hits at approximately the same damage as Peach - possibly even at higher damage, as Marth's higher weight and falling speed allow DI to factor in and keep him from exploding off the side and top easier.
On the other hand, lets look at edge guarding. Peach can edge guard Marth by... oh wait. Her downsmash gets outprioritized by his up B... pretty much any aerial attack can be intercepted with a fair or dair... he can time his up B early or late to either knock peach off the edge or recover after she's climbed when she is edge hogging. On the other hand, Marth can... pretty much force peach to go anywhere. Force her to the ledge, where he can easily hit her out of any recovery method on reaction. Force her up and over, where he can follow underneath her since she moves slow and hit her as she lands.
Speaking of aerial games, Marth can pretty much completely neuter all of Peach's aerials with spacing and proper use of his own. Peach's air slowness haunts her again. Any hovering in attacks become extremely vulnerable, especially since hitting her out of her hover makes peach that much more vulnerable to combos and edge guarding. Peach can punish Marth in the air... only when he's directly above her. Not a situation that most good Marth players will allow, but Peach does have the advantage when Marth jumps high enough for her to get under him.
So what are Peach's advantages over Marth? Two things: 1) His shield can't fully take a downsmash (though his light shield can), leading her to get a one hit downsmash if she can get in on him when he's shielding. 2) Between 80 and about 150 damage, Peach will not die from anything Marth can do to her that is not a tipper.
What are Marth's advantages over Peach? Complete air superiority, superior edge guarding, superior spacing game, better combos, more speed... the list goes on. Oh, and he's unquestionably favored on three of the six "neutral" stages, while Peach is slightly aided by only one.
Looking at the matchup, I'm hard pressed to find any way to argue that Marth isn't a hard counter for Peach.
Let's look at the basic structure of the matchup. Marth's primary focus is keeping Peach at approximately at tipper range, or possibly just outside it. From this "sweet spot" range, Marth has complete and utter dominance of the match. His moves (fair, ftilt, utilt) are fast enough to be unpunishable and have enough range to easily keep Peach at bay. On the other hand, Peach has to either be far enough to pull and throw turnips (praying for a zombie/beamsword, because marth can swat anything else out of the air with a fair while advancing on her) or in close. Peach has difficulty getting in on Marth because of his tipper range - even if the attack doesn't tip her, odds are it will still hit her if she's trying to move in. At best, Peach has to fake Marth out to get in on him and do any damage whatsoever. Couple Marth's excellent ranged attacks and his insane grab and getting in on him at all is quite a feat. From this point, Peach has to do as much damage as possible without letting Marth get away, which can be quite difficult given how poorly her moves combo. Marth can get all sorts of damage out of fair combos or grab combos - at 0 to 15 damage he can even put peach in a situation where her DI determines whether she gets chain thrown or tipper fsmashed. Add that to other combos that can often actually lead to low damage kills... I'd say Marth has the advantage here.
Perhaps the argument about Peach having an advantage over Marth is one of recovery, not direct combat. Fine, let's look at recovery. Proper DI will allow Marth to recover from hits at approximately the same damage as Peach - possibly even at higher damage, as Marth's higher weight and falling speed allow DI to factor in and keep him from exploding off the side and top easier.
On the other hand, lets look at edge guarding. Peach can edge guard Marth by... oh wait. Her downsmash gets outprioritized by his up B... pretty much any aerial attack can be intercepted with a fair or dair... he can time his up B early or late to either knock peach off the edge or recover after she's climbed when she is edge hogging. On the other hand, Marth can... pretty much force peach to go anywhere. Force her to the ledge, where he can easily hit her out of any recovery method on reaction. Force her up and over, where he can follow underneath her since she moves slow and hit her as she lands.
Speaking of aerial games, Marth can pretty much completely neuter all of Peach's aerials with spacing and proper use of his own. Peach's air slowness haunts her again. Any hovering in attacks become extremely vulnerable, especially since hitting her out of her hover makes peach that much more vulnerable to combos and edge guarding. Peach can punish Marth in the air... only when he's directly above her. Not a situation that most good Marth players will allow, but Peach does have the advantage when Marth jumps high enough for her to get under him.
So what are Peach's advantages over Marth? Two things: 1) His shield can't fully take a downsmash (though his light shield can), leading her to get a one hit downsmash if she can get in on him when he's shielding. 2) Between 80 and about 150 damage, Peach will not die from anything Marth can do to her that is not a tipper.
What are Marth's advantages over Peach? Complete air superiority, superior edge guarding, superior spacing game, better combos, more speed... the list goes on. Oh, and he's unquestionably favored on three of the six "neutral" stages, while Peach is slightly aided by only one.
Looking at the matchup, I'm hard pressed to find any way to argue that Marth isn't a hard counter for Peach.
flaco
The Terminator
These guy speak the true I am marth player all the way its all about the range and fairs and nairs keep it up bro.
Mrobinson587
Smash Apprentice
K20AFoozbal here is further "proof"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duZYUfxDkTI
mikael (peach) vs ken (marth)
you guys are looking at statistics and not matches, it's sort of like how "some things look really good on paper" or how "communism is good in theory"
in this match ken uses all those advantages except the chain throw but mikeal uses Peach's shield and air dodge to stay out of the way of most aerials. mikeal also was able to squeeze attacks inbetween missed aerials
as far as edgeguarding maybe it was just really bad luck for ken but peach seemed to keep him off the edge a fair amount with turnips and edgehogging
and yes i did notice the zombie turnip at the end but it was still a close match before peach pulled it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duZYUfxDkTI
mikael (peach) vs ken (marth)
you guys are looking at statistics and not matches, it's sort of like how "some things look really good on paper" or how "communism is good in theory"
in this match ken uses all those advantages except the chain throw but mikeal uses Peach's shield and air dodge to stay out of the way of most aerials. mikeal also was able to squeeze attacks inbetween missed aerials
as far as edgeguarding maybe it was just really bad luck for ken but peach seemed to keep him off the edge a fair amount with turnips and edgehogging
and yes i did notice the zombie turnip at the end but it was still a close match before peach pulled it
Hmm that is one instance of a Peach winning. I am neutral as far as the arguement goes, but posting a video as an arguement is just as bad as posting SSBM theory in regards to the match up.
- Status