The 2006-2008 Tier list

[Kraken]

man you're good at this "reasoning" thing.

I suppose it's better than entering a discussion with no argument at all.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

Kraken for funniest forum member.

 

[brawlpro]

All his 9 posts make me roflmao.

 

[Winston]

I still can't get over the black orb johns. That was AMAZING.

 

[C@sH Mooney]

I still can't get over the black orb johns. That was AMAZING.

Indeed it was.

Ill ask AZ to add that to the john list.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Bowser for top tier, he can grab whilst in mid air

Kamikaze grab of doom ftw :D there should be more of that in the bowser challenge

 

[The Star King]

what i think it should be:

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon

High Tier
Peach
Ice Climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff
Doctor Mario

Middle Tier
Mario
Link
Ganondorf
Luigi
Donkey Kong

Low Tier
Roy
Pikachu
Yoshi
Mr. Game and Watch
Young Link

Bottom Tier:
Ness
Zelda
Bowser
Kirby
Mewtwo
Pichu

I switched some characters around, and I balanced out the number of characters in each tier (5 in each except for the bottom tier).

 

[BDawgPHD]

what i think it should be:

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Captain Falcon

High Tier
Peach
Ice Climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff
Doctor Mario

Middle Tier
Mario
Link
Ganondorf
Luigi
Donkey Kong

Low Tier
Roy
Pikachu
Yoshi
Mr. Game and Watch
Young Link

Bottom Tier:
Ness
Zelda
Bowser
Kirby
Mewtwo
Pichu

I switched some characters around, and I balanced out the number of characters in each tier (5 in each except for the bottom tier).

(at least he didnt put falco at the top )

I think Captain Falcon should be top tier because of his raw speed, power, and just really slick looking and efficient combo ability.

....I think that assessment is just as plausible as redoing the tier list

 

[NJzFinest]

If you're going to make your own tier list, provide it with some solid examples.

Saying "so and so" is better than "so and so" isn't enough and is barely relevant...or else, Kirby would be on the bottom. Please take into account how welll the players of a certain character have been holding up with that character competitively.

Ex. DK should be higher because Mexican, Bum, and PKM (the only well known DK players) have been doing a great job placing well in tournaments with this character.

 

[brawlpro]

Ex. DK should be higher because Mexican, Bum, and PKM (the only well known DK players)

You forgot the jack captain captain jack.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hmm, I did xD

But when I come to think of it, he only uses Shiek in tournaments from what it seems, at least not anymore (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

So yeah

 

[Smash G 0 D]

(at least he didnt put falco at the top )

I think Captain Falcon should be top tier because of his raw speed, power, and just really slick looking and efficient combo ability.

....I think that assessment is just as plausible as redoing the tier list

Falcon is easily comboed just as he can combo. Fox owns Falcon.

 

[Deleted member]

marth for top of the top tier...

since the shiek player that i dont remember his name, when ken took him down years ago; a marth player has always been the best in the world. it seems when you play the perfect game it's impossible to get past is range and his combo ability is top tier as well.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

marth for top of the top tier...

since the shiek player that i dont remember his name, when ken took him down years ago; a marth player has always been the best in the world. it seems when you play the perfect game it's impossible to get past is range and his combo ability is top tier as well.

It really isn't 1 set of matches that considers the tiers, but a whole bunch of rankings with a character.

Think of it as Mew2King beats Azen, Azen Beats Chu Dat, and Chu Dat beats Mew2King.

It makes Chu Dat infinite times better than Mew2King even though he's infinite times better than Azen etc. etc. etc.

There are advantages and disadvantages. Tiers are as hard as saying (bad example coming up) which pokemon type is the best? Is it dragon? steel?

 

[Reno-Vgas]

http://finaldestination.client.jp/sumabura/dx3.html#-1

Japan makes me go LOL

Bowser should be so much further from the bottom. Gimpy is SOOOO right when he says Kirby is the worst.

 

[BDawgPHD]

...it seems when you play the perfect game it's impossible to get past is range and his combo ability is top tier as well.

Perfect game...heh, the same could be said for Captain Falcon...I forget which pro said it, probably Isai, but his advice was "don't get hit". Sure, in theory, Marth should be top tier since his range is bull****, but you forget to take into account speed, anticipation, tactics, and unpredictability. The reason Fox is top tier is because he's strong, combos well, is unbelievably fast, and can take control of a match very easily, and it logically follows that he can be very unpredictable. Captain Falcon is easily combo'd and has a god-awful recovery. But remembering that, a good enough player could put Falcon's speed to good use and stay out of danger until he is able to make a good move. I'm not saying I could, but I'm saying that a pro could take Captain Falcon to the top tier if he wanted to. The tier is set up by the success of tournament players with certain characters, so if some of the better players learned to use these aspects of Falcon, he would be far more successful in tournaments.

 

[billythegoat]

Are they going to give us one final list before brawl comes out?

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Are they going to give us one final list before brawl comes out?

No. 10 char

 

[Deleted member]

regardless of what pros can do with a certain good character (or any character for that matter)
tiers are about the best character in the entire game, vs all other characters, considering human's ability and error.

"It really isn't 1 set of matches that considers the tiers, but a whole bunch of rankings with a character.

Think of it as Mew2King beats Azen, Azen Beats Chu Dat, and Chu Dat beats Mew2King.

It makes Chu Dat infinite times better than Mew2King even though he's infinite times better than Azen etc. etc. etc.

There are advantages and disadvantages. Tiers are as hard as saying (bad example coming up) which pokemon type is the best? Is it dragon? steel?"

mew2king is the best becuase he beats everyone. im not saying he never loses, because thats obviously false, but he wins, in general, regardless of his match up. at fc:d i saw him lose to pc randomly, then pwn chu in the losers bracket, then come back to 6-0 pc in the winners finals. im not saying this is all due to marth or anything like that, but m2k plays (when hes on his game), close to the peak of human ability, which has proven unstoppable. ken has preformed such a game as well for a long time, but now m2k is here and has even taken it a step farther and perfected every technical aspect of the game. either way you look at it, i believe marth is top tier. agreed, fox, shiek, and falco are all beasts as well, but even with their speed on marth, there are certain tactics you can use to play a safe game and wait for them to make the first mistake. (auto canceled nairs, shing backwards, shffld fair for defense, perfect ledge invincibility, ect) all these things added to his amazing combo and edge guard ability, as well as his pressure game, make marth an absolute beast. you dont have to stand there in front of a dash dancing fox, you wont be able to react when he makes a move, but you can use safe tactics to keep him worried about when to attack. be safe and wait for the first mistake then pwn. marth is the best. but this is all, of course, imo so do what you want with it.

but the idea of marth>falco>fox>shiek>marth, or how ever else you want to say it, doesnt really exist because using marth's range and defensive tactics, i dont think he can be beat; however if anyone wants me to put it into numbers, this is how i feel about the top tier matchups:

marth- fox (6/4)
marth- falco (6/4)
marth- shiek (4/6)
total- (16/14)

fox- falco (5/5)
fox- shiek (6/4) (possibly even a 5/5, im still trying to decide my opinion on this match) fox- marth (4/6)
total- (15/15)

falco- shiek (6/4) (despite my opinion about fox vs shiek, i think this is a solid 6/4)
falco- marth (4/6)
falco- fox (5/5)
total- (15/15)

shiek- marth (6/4)
shiek- fox (4/6)
shiek- falco (4/6)
total- (14/16)

if shiek vs fox is a 5/5, fox becomes a 14/16 and shiek becomes a 15/15; either way, marth places highest on the list of top tiers.
if you happen to think, "what about the top tiers vs the other chars?" i think they pretty much all **** them. marth and shiek do better vs peach but fox and shiek do better vs capt falcon and jiggs. marth and fox do best vs ice, but falco does best against samus. it's all a good mix of match ups, but i think all the top tiers have an advatage over the rest of the cast.

like i said in my first post, i think the top tiers should be:
(respectively) marth, shiek, fox, falco

i think shiek has more of an advantage over the rest of the cast, has a safer game in general, and possibly goes even vs fox, giving her more points than fox in the top tier matchups.

bam. discuss? flame? w/e

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

It's more like this, even though I don't like the system that much:

Marth:

Marth/Fox: 5/5
Marth/Falco: 6/4
Marth/Sheik: 4/6
Total: 15/15

Fox:

Fox/Falco: 5/5
Fox/Marth: 5/5
Fox/Sheik: 6/4
Total: 16/14

Sheik:

Sheik/Fox: 4/6
Sheik/Falco:4/6
Sheik/Marth: 6/4
Total: 14/16

Falco:

Falco/Fox: 5/5
Falco/Marth: 4/6
Falco/Sheik: 6/4

15/15

So it's still

Fox
Marth/Falco
Falco/Marth
Sheik

 

[Deleted member]

i agree on that chart not rly mattering i was just throwing that out there. but imo marth has the advantage over fox, and shiek may to even with him.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I thought Falco had a slight advantage over Fox??

like 6-4 Falco

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

it´s 2008 :D

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

it´s 2008 :D

Indeed it is. Happy New Year.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

I thought Falco had a slight advantage over Fox??

like 6-4 Falco

Falco can combo Fox better, but Fox can simply get kills more easily.

 

[tafutureboy]

the top tiers, well for me, are harder to control........but i guess once you get good as them there great

also fox can get more kills, plus since his blaster doesnt have knock back you can shoot fast, get percentage up quicker

 

[Aesir]

Marth and Fox are top tier.

/thread.

 

[brawlpro]

Ness doesn't exist.

/thread.

 

[arrowhead]

also fox can get more kills, plus since his blaster doesnt have knock back you can shoot fast, get percentage up quicker

its even on FD where fox can do stuff with upthrow. falco has the advantage on the other neutral stages. falco's laser is much better than fox's

 

[BDawgPHD]

its even on FD where fox can do stuff with upthrow. falco has the advantage on the other neutral stages. falco's laser is much better than fox's

what are you talking about? when my friend uses fox the laser makes all the difference. his opponent will try to recover, and then he'll hit the guy with a laser and go HAH! and then he'll kill him and go "you know you died cuz i hit you with that laser, right?"

 

[Nonchalant]

In 300 pages I'm sure that what I'm about to say has already been said, debated, argued over, and answered. But I need to get it out of my system so here goes:


Tiers should be about character potential.
It makes very little sense to rank characters by how good the current players play them, the human factor creates much too many variables.
What you need to do for the tier list is break down every character's moves into frames, delay, possible delay, priority, range, speed, and all that crap.

I don't want to know the best character right now, I want to know the best character possible. And with doing this you would not have to re-make a tier list unless a change was made to a character...no?

Everybody is different, everybody plays differently, this tier list is bogus. The way it's created pretty much makes it bogus, if you're gonna rank characters on how well the person playing them is then why have it a tier list of characters at all, why not just put the player names there...

 

[AAP]

I agree with Nonchalant, a tier list based on tournament results which is biased by trends/techniques amongst players is not the truest evaluation of a characters. It would have some correlation but it would be prone to error

 

[Geist]

Everything can be prone to error AAP.
The tier list is based off of the character's metagame in official tournaments throughout the country. If it was based of of potential, the tier list would be based off what characters could be, instead of what characters are. Metagame is always changing, so if a character has potential, it will eventually be exploited thus raising the character higher up on the list.

You are right whan you say everyone plays differently nonchalant, but also realize that the tiers are not justified by a sole player who happens to be good with that character. It is taken off of the majority of tournament results for that character. Ken may have the best tournament record, but just because he plays with Marth does not automatically give Marth the highest spot on the list. High placing Marths like Ken are not as common as high placing Fox's or Falco's.

 

[Kips]

I believe Game and Watch deserves to be Low Tier at least, rather then Middle Tier. His powerful attacks and speed with amazing vertical recovery deserve some notice. Oh sure, his defense is crap but his offense is excellent and I believe he has the best D-Tilt in the game.

 

[Nonchalant]

Everything can be prone to error AAP.
The tier list is based off of the character's metagame in official tournaments throughout the country. If it was based of of potential, the tier list would be based off what characters could be, instead of what characters are. Metagame is always changing, so if a character has potential, it will eventually be exploited thus raising the character higher up on the list.

You are right whan you say everyone plays differently nonchalant, but also realize that the tiers are not justified by a sole player who happens to be good with that character. It is taken off of the majority of tournament results for that character. Ken may have the best tournament record, but just because he plays with Marth does not automatically give Marth the highest spot on the list. High placing Marths like Ken are not as common as high placing Fox's or Falco's.

Perhaps I'm just confused at what a tier represents. Here's my rough understanding of the current tier list:

The current tier list is a ranking of what thus far has been proven to work by many different people who have played and ranked in official tournaments. It is what these people have shown to the smash community, their abilities and the ability of their character (under their control).


Now, I acknowledge that everything can be prone to error, but humans are more prone to error than programming. This is why I figured that if we took every characters potential abilities, given to them by the game, and ranked them against one another (taking out the human factor) this would be the most accurate way to rank the characters.

I don't really know what you are trying to get accross when you say "the tier list would be based off what characters could be, instead of what characters are", isn't this better? What they are is ALWAYS changing, everyone's acknowledged that. We are constantly (maybe not so constantly any more) getting more and more information about characters, new ways to use them, new situations to use moves or combos in, which just, to me, seems an extremely innaccurate way to rank the characters =\.


Again, maybe I'm just unclear on a 'tier' but wouldn't taking the possabilities of a character and ranking them to others be a better way to introduce a tier list to people?

"This character is good at the moment."
"This character has the potential to be the best."

Of course...not all things are humanly possible I guess. But it still would be cool to know which character, if it was able to be controlled perfectly, would come out on top, or rather have the most probable chance of winning.

There are many more factors to consider in a match, DI and mind games and stuff like that. But this would be a better way to tell that if two people of the same mindset played with two different characters, this one would come out on top.

 

[Plairnkk]

fox and marth are the best

 

[Psychoace]

Perhaps I'm just confused at what a tier represents. Here's my rough understanding of the current tier list:

The current tier list is a ranking of what thus far has been proven to work by many different people who have played and ranked in official tournaments. It is what these people have shown to the smash community, their abilities and the ability of their character (under their control).


Now, I acknowledge that everything can be prone to error, but humans are more prone to error than programming. This is why I figured that if we took every characters potential abilities, given to them by the game, and ranked them against one another (taking out the human factor) this would be the most accurate way to rank the characters.

I don't really know what you are trying to get accross when you say "the tier list would be based off what characters could be, instead of what characters are", isn't this better? What they are is ALWAYS changing, everyone's acknowledged that. We are constantly (maybe not so constantly any more) getting more and more information about characters, new ways to use them, new situations to use moves or combos in, which just, to me, seems an extremely innaccurate way to rank the characters =\.


Again, maybe I'm just unclear on a 'tier' but wouldn't taking the possabilities of a character and ranking them to others be a better way to introduce a tier list to people?

"This character is good at the moment."
"This character has the potential to be the best."

Of course...not all things are humanly possible I guess. But it still would be cool to know which character, if it was able to be controlled perfectly, would come out on top, or rather have the most probable chance of winning.

There are many more factors to consider in a match, DI and mind games and stuff like that. But this would be a better way to tell that if two people of the same mindset played with two different characters, this one would come out on top.

Then the tier list wouldn't really apply to anyone, since it's impossible to control a character perfectly. Your just stating a different variant from the current tier list. However if everything did go frame perfect, and flawlessly, the second ice climbers grabbed someone the game would be over, or at least that stock.

 

[Corigames]

...the second ice climbers grabbed someone the game would be over, or at least that stock.

But that's how it DOES work. Ice climber's grab, especially in the hands of a pro, will win a game on the first grab. Granted, a little damage has to be made first, but that's no problem. The thing is, other characters are still better regardless of that fact. What does it matter if the ice climbers can win off the first grab if they have to get in close on a Fox or Marth? A good fox can shine them when they are in grab range and a Marth can out space them. Plus, Nana isn't the brightest bulb in the bunch if you know what I mean.

The tier list is there because, in most cases, it is right. Someone that plays at the same level as someone else may find that the tier list dictates who wins. A pichu playing just as well as a Shiek will most likely not win if it doesn't scrape by by the skin of its teeth.

Should you base your character off of the tier list? No. Should you care if yours is low? Maybe. If you are in a tournament and you see there is some hefty foes ahead with a fair Peach or what say you, maybe that isn't the best time to showcase your MewTwo. Counterpicking is a good strategy, so having multiple characters should help when trying to progress in this game. I don't care how good you are with Falco, once you get rested off the stage, you probably aren't coming back.

So take a chill pill everyone, the tier is a mighty opinion that asks for nothing more than you to look at it a weigh your own decisions.

 

[Nonchalant]

Then the tier list wouldn't really apply to anyone, since it's impossible to control a character perfectly. Your just stating a different variant from the current tier list. However if everything did go frame perfect, and flawlessly, the second ice climbers grabbed someone the game would be over, or at least that stock.

But I'm sure everyone can agree that everybody plays differently, this tier list may apply to the majority but I think that people get the wrong impression here. People look at this list and think 'Okay, pichu can not beat fox.' They don't know why or how but they just assume that to be fact. But it's not true, a good pichu could beat a noob fox, not a problem.


What's wrong with knowing what is possible, rather than what is probable? Not everyone can play like the pros, not anyone can play perfectly. But at least then we're in the same boat.

 

[XIF]

people still argue about this list?

I barely remember when I voted on this.

this is ancient history and while we probably wont make another tier list, the general consensus of any competent player is that the list then doesnt accurately represent the metagame now, least of which is the influx of marth playing plus the rise of mang0 and his jiggs, plus the quitting of tipman and bushman hurting ganon's current metagame.