Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Bones0]

Yeah, I mean I was saying if neither character had a projectile, then almost anyone can camp the far cloud. Marth can use his ground moves just fine. I think you are underestimating how far away the furthest cloud is... You can easily just refresh the cloud timer with a WD when you see them jump off, and from there Marth can just utilt/uair/DD grab the opponent, and suddenly they're in the worst edgeguarding position manageable. Once you see them commit to jumping to the far cloud with their DJ, you can also just stand until your cloud starts to disappear, and then you jump past the opponent to the cloud they just left and they die helplessly. Or you can stand on the mid-cloud, and let that disappear when they try to jump out to you, and you just hop backwards to the far cloud. There's so many jank traps. lol If both characters have projectiles, it becomes about whose projectile is better, and if only one has a projectile (like you said, Sheik/Doc vs. Marth), then the character with the projectile will almost always win.

 

[Hax]

we need to get rid of Pokemon Stadium already

 

[Xyzz]

Is this because PS is worse than the other stages or is it just a necessary step on the road to "BF only"?

 

[BTmoney]

we need to get rid of Pokemon Stadium already

I think it's hilarious how Fox gets his own counterpick stage lol.


and someone fill me in as to why brinstar got banned please, I wasn't conceived yet

 

[Hax]

Is this because PS is worse than the other stages or is it just a necessary step on the road to "BF only"?

it's much worse than the other 5 stages; 2 of the transformations are worse than some banned stages and force most characters to run the **** away from spacies.

getting rid of it is also secretly one step closer to new world order

 

[Bones0]

I think it's hilarious how Fox gets his own counterpick stage lol.


and someone fill me in as to why brinstar got banned please, I wasn't conceived yet

Having one of your best stages as a counterpick instead of a neutral is a disadvantage. derp

 

[BTmoney]

Having one of your best stages as a counterpick instead of a neutral is a disadvantage. derp

Not when it doesn't need to exist and the character has no bad stages.

 

[Bones0]

Not when it doesn't need to exist and the character has no bad stages.

None of the stages need to exist. "Bad" is a relative term, so saying a character doesn't have any bad stages is ********.

 

[BTmoney]

Having one of your best stages as a counterpick instead of a neutral is a disadvantage. derp

Wait, so Fox having an additional stage that he functions well on is not desirable for him? okay

None of the stages need to exist.

Deep stuff

"Bad" is a relative term, so saying a character doesn't have any bad stages is ********.

Not when the character literally functions well on every stage. Saying that is ********? Of course some stages are more desirable than others. A character's worst stage can still be comparatively good when compared to other character's worst stages.

 

[Bones0]

Wait, so Fox having an additional stage that he functions well on is not desirable for him? okay

Not when the character literally functions well on every stage. Saying that is ********? Of course some stages are more desirable than others. A character's worst stage can still be comparatively good when compared to other character's worst stages.

Your whole argument is based on the assumption that Fox has somehow received beneficial treatment, and goes even further as to suggest that we should add or remove stages in order to balance the cast. There are 6 stages that people have deemed legal, and in order to strike stages, we had to delegate one as non-neutral. We chose PS because it has transformations. If we had chosen FD to be the counterpick, Fox players would be much better off because FD is an awful stage for him in most matchups.

 

[Xyzz]

I also really dislike PS, and my guts say it is awful and should be gone. But then again I can't find good enough reasons to convince even myself to be pro-ban :x
Sure, you can't really compete with spacies on the rock transformation (I think Falco isn't that hot on the fire transformation), but usually those are camped out anyways... which is totally ******** and boring as hell, but I don't see that as being intolerable since it does go away quickly enough.

 

[Jockmaster]

I think it's hilarious how Fox gets his own counterpick stage lol.


and someone fill me in as to why brinstar got banned please, I wasn't conceived yet

Meh, it's not only for Fox

It really helps me out as a Ganon main when playing against many characters in a Bo3

I win on BF, they beat me on their counterpick, then they ban Yoshis and I can't go BF cuz of DSR. So now I have to choose FD (aka suicide for Ganon against everyone except Bowser), FoD (which makes Ganons neutral game a chore and gives him a straight up disadvantage vs most other viable chars), or Dreamland (extremely tough stage against mobile characters and Peach) if PS is not allowed.

PS allows for a small-ish stage besides Yoshi's. That's pretty much it. And it really isn't jank enough to justify banning (when was the last time someone lost because of stage transformations or any jank PS stuff in a big game?).

 

[BTmoney]

Meh, it's not only for Fox

It really helps me out as a Ganon main when playing against many characters in a Bo3

I win on BF, they beat me on their counterpick, then they ban Yoshis and I can't go BF cuz of DSR. So now I have to choose FD (aka suicide for Ganon against everyone except Bowser) or Dreamland (extremely tough stage against mobile characters and Peach) if PS is not allowed.

PS allows for a small-ish stage besides Yoshi's. That's pretty much it. And it really isn't jank enough to justify banning (when was the last time someone lost because of stage transformations or any jank PS stuff in a big game?).

I just think it's strange how there is legal stage deemed not neutral. If it's not neutral then it shouldn't be a legal stage if there is only 1 counter pick stage. This is like stuck in between two ideologies, the first being neutral stages only and the second having counterpick stages. You can't have counterpick stage, singular.

I think the characters that benefit the most from PS are Fox, Marth, Roy, Falcon and Ganon. What about the rest of the cast? They don't get a CP? If the stage is not neutral, meaning it favors certain characters, than it shouldn't be legal. Why have one not neutral stage? We either need less stages or more counter picks.

Ya feel me? I know you never said otherwise but this is my opinion.

 

[Jockmaster]

Any other CP has been deemed broken. That's literally the only thing that separates PS...it's too jank to be neutral but not broken enough to be banned. We have no reason to ban it.

 

[Bones0]

I just think it's strange how there is legal stage deemed not neutral. If it's not neutral then it shouldn't be a legal stage if there is only 1 counter pick stage. This is like stuck in between two ideologies, the first being neutral stages only and the second having counterpick stages. You can't have counterpick stage, singular.

I think the characters that benefit the most from PS are Fox, Marth, Roy, Falcon and Ganon. What about the rest of the cast? They don't get a CP? If the stage is not neutral, meaning it favors certain characters, than it shouldn't be legal. Why have one not neutral stage? We either need less stages or more counter picks.

Ya feel me? I know you never said otherwise but this is my opinion.

You're reading too much into the name. FD and BF can be counterpicks the same as PS. ALL of the stages are counterpick stages, but only 5 can be used to strike, so we call those neutral. The names don't make any sense, but it's just what's always been used from when we had a bunch of stages. If you look at my ruleset, I don't even use the term "counterpick" to describe PS, nor do I use "neutral" to describe any of the other stages. There are simply 6 legal stages, and PS is excluded from the striking process.

 

[BTmoney]

You're reading too much into the name. FD and BF can be counterpicks the same as PS. ALL of the stages are counterpick stages, but only 5 can be used to strike, so we call those neutral. The names don't make any sense, but it's just what's always been used from when we had a bunch of stages. If you look at my ruleset, I don't even use the term "counterpick" to describe PS, nor do I use "neutral" to describe any of the other stages. There are simply 6 legal stages, and PS is excluded from the striking process.

It's not in the name though. Why was PS chosen as the outlier? (i.e. why isn't insert stage here, or whatever, the stage excluded from striking). Like Jockmaster said below, it's because it's more broken than the other stages. Why have a stage that's broken at all?

"We have 5 (pretty much) neutral stages than a 6th one that's notably less neutral with a lot of camping but we keep it because ____"
Because stage diversity? F that.
http://smashboards.com/threads/at-w...nment-trump-competition.336010/#post-15485973
Sounds to me like we need less stages. Or more and real counter picks if you want to add a little jank.

Any other CP has been deemed broken. That's literally the only thing that separates PS...it's too jank to be neutral but not broken enough to be banned. We have no reason to ban it.

Other than the jankness, transformations, and a layout that favors some characters more heavily than the other 5 stages.

If I wanted to continue my argument how logically we should have less stages, FD (which is obviously the least neutral neutral) would be among the 1-3 that would go.

 

[Jockmaster]

Other than the jankness, transformations, and a layout that favors some characters more heavily than the other 5 stages.

"Jankness" is no reason to ban anything. FoD is extremely jank.

"Transformations" are no reason to ban anything unless the transformations make it so one character without fail ***** everything during transformations. Which doesn't happen.

"Layout that favors some characters more heavily than the other 5 stages" is absolutely not a reason. Every stage benefits a pocket of characters much more than it benefits others.

 

[Bones0]

I think PS is the outlier because it's the only stage that transforms. That's why I excluded it from striking in my list, but people have a ton of reasons. I'm sure at least part of the reason it is left out of striking in the official ruleset is because of people like you who think "OMG SO BROKEN FOR SPACIES. IT'S A COUNTERPICK". Then, ironically, the same group complains about how the only cp benefits the characters people are trying to artificially nerf by excluding it from striking. If you don't think PS should be legal because the transformations or ledges interfere with skillful gameplay, then fine, but you've just been *****ing about how it benefits spacies and dumb **** that has no relevance when determining if a stage should be legal or not.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's not in the name though. Why was PS chosen as the outlier? (i.e. why isn't insert stage here, or whatever, the stage excluded from striking). Like Jockmaster said below, it's because it's more broken than the other stages. Why have a stage that's broken at all?

"We have 5 (pretty much) neutral stages than a 6th one that's notably less neutral with a lot of camping but we keep it because ____"
Because stage diversity? F that.
http://smashboards.com/threads/at-w...nment-trump-competition.336010/#post-15485973
Sounds to me like we need less stages. Or more and real counter picks if you want to add a little jank.



Other than the jankness, transformations, and a layout that favors some characters more heavily than the other 5 stages.

If I wanted to continue my argument how logically we should have less stages, FD (which is obviously the least neutral neutral) would be among the 1-3 that would go.

Actually, PS was chosen for no good reason. Many tournaments have chosen to have FD be the CP stage or FoD or even YS.

Stop reading so much into it, we need 5 stages for stage strike but we have 6 "good" stages to play on.

 

[The MC Clusky]

I miss Corneria and epic tech battles under the fin.

I miss having a viable set of counterpicks.

 

[Divinokage]

it's much worse than the other 5 stages; 2 of the transformations are worse than some banned stages and force most characters to run the **** away from spacies.

getting rid of it is also secretly one step closer to new world order

You could just chase them and beat them at their own game, it's fun to do that. lol. If you manage to create a chaotic situation with the tree or mountain for example, **** will go down. Like mixup aerials, jab lock on the wall. If you get a good punch in and they dont tech, it's too funny, they get stunned the whole way down without being able to jump.

Also if both choose not to attack on a transformation, I mean that's that, that isnt a valid enough reason to get rid of it.

Meh, it's not only for Fox

It really helps me out as a Ganon main when playing against many characters in a Bo3

I win on BF, they beat me on their counterpick, then they ban Yoshis and I can't go BF cuz of DSR. So now I have to choose FD (aka suicide for Ganon against everyone except Bowser), FoD (which makes Ganons neutral game a chore and gives him a straight up disadvantage vs most other viable chars), or Dreamland (extremely tough stage against mobile characters and Peach) if PS is not allowed.

PS allows for a small-ish stage besides Yoshi's. That's pretty much it. And it really isn't jank enough to justify banning (when was the last time someone lost because of stage transformations or any jank PS stuff in a big game?).

I dont really agree with the FoD part, I personally think it's a good stage for Ganon. I find that the techchase options are far easier to perform and its also easier to lock someone in.. and people die fast. At least if you choose DL, your ground game needs to be much better than if you play on FoD since you play close to a platform pretty much all the time. It's also tough to get KOed on DL and if you DI very high at close to KO percent, your recovery options are pretty good considering. Just gotta chip away little by little and stay patient.

 

[cheese619]

I propose that in order to try and get rid of all the confusion over DSR, MDSR and M2KSR etc, we rename them to the following:

Standard Stage Rule (SSR): You cannot pick to go to any stage that you have already won on.
Last Win Stage Rule (LWSR): You cannot pick to go to the last stage that you won on.

Anyone agree? Can we try and clear this up somehow?

 

[Bones0]

I propose that in order to try and get rid of all the confusion over DSR, MDSR and M2KSR etc, we rename them to the following:

Standard Stage Rule (SSR): You cannot pick to go to any stage that you have already won on.
Last Win Stage Rule (LWSR): You cannot pick to go to the last stage that you won on.

Anyone agree? Can we try and clear this up somehow?

Not a bad suggestion, but I think pretty much everyone agrees we shouldn't be banning the last stage someone won on in the first place because it arbitrarily makes one game more important than the others. The rule shouldn't exist.

 

[cheese619]

Not a bad suggestion, but I think pretty much everyone agrees we shouldn't be banning the last stage someone won on in the first place because it arbitrarily makes one game more important than the others. The rule shouldn't exist.

Yeah I agree with you on that, I just hate the confusion with it (also Dave's Stupid Rule is a stupid name). It takes so much time to explain what you mean when you use the names DSR or DSRM.

 

[s l e e p y]

the premise of the "PS is jank" argument seems to be that its variation adds unnecessarily interruptive elements to the battle while also favoring certain characters. and if this is to be upheld as noteworthy, then it is silly to turn a blind eye to all the other varying stages.

YS: shy guys' interfering bull****
FoD: "fountain of downsmash" (peach mains)
FD: no platform game (doesn't vary within itself but varies from literally every other stage)
DL: ****ing wind

etc

everything is bannable idk

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Praise Sakurai theres a Battlefield!

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Neutral stages

• Battlefield

Counterpick Stages

• everything else

You get 25 bans
Also uses DSRM because why not

If you disagree don't even respond because I will just call you names

 

[Xyzz]

I disagree.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

ur a stupid

 

[Xyzz]

Hey, I'm kinda curious about the general TO stance on "controller modifications"... friend of mine thinks about building one that's closer to some arcade stick (since he has the electrical engineering stuff lying around anyways and thinks the original GCC is a piece of crap (he claws)), and we've been wondering if he would be allowed to enter most tournaments with that thing.
Obviously there'd be no function enhancement like waveshine buttons or nonsense like that, just modified button positions for more comfortable hand posture.

 

[Bones0]

Hey, I'm kinda curious about the general TO stance on "controller modifications"... friend of mine thinks about building one that's closer to some arcade stick (since he has the electrical engineering stuff lying around anyways and thinks the original GCC is a piece of crap (he claws)), and we've been wondering if he would be allowed to enter most tournaments with that thing.
Obviously there'd be no function enhancement like waveshine buttons or nonsense like that, just modified button positions for more comfortable hand posture.

As cool as a fight stick for Melee might be, it's not fair to people who don't have the equipment or know-how to create their own, so I'd hope most TOs wouldn't allow it in competition. Even if there's no turbo buttons or anything, it would make certain inputs much easier than they are on an official controller.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Whether a stage is counterpick or not isn't based on how jank it is, that makes as much sense as deciding counterpick stages based on how colourful they are; none.

The starter list is basically just a simplified, smaller version of full-stage list striking; we've chosen a sample to represent the legitimate stages under the assumption that if we were striking from every legitimate stage, it'd end up on one of our 5 current starters anyway. Our counterpick list is just all of the stages that are still legitimate, but won't be struck to.

This doesn't really apply to Melee anymore because we banned lots of legitimate stages because we didn't like them and because we didn't like how good Fox was on them, but it still pays to realize why we have the system we have before suggesting changes to it (such as banning PS).

 

[S7GF]

In a match, after the first set has been played, does the loser pick the stage before the players have picked their character or after?

 

[Xyzz]

Stuff happens in the following order after the first match is won:
Winner bans stage (if applicable), Loser picks stage, Winner picks character, Loser picks character

 

[S7GF]

Ok, thank you.

 

[rob_bot5]

Why is RC gone?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[killazys]

Stages are banned for introducing elements of randomness to the gameplay, right? Why not just have all matches start on BF which is closest to true neutral we have, and then all stages legal for counterpicks and we just have to figure out how many bans to give people? If a player chooses with full knowledge to go to like Fourside lol why not? Granted you could argue that this gives the loser too much of an advantage going into game 2 contingent upon number of allowed counterpicks..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For one, it wastes lots of time. If there are 29 legal stages and each player has 8+ bans, I doubt they will be able to remember the bans between games, which means they would have to write them down, which introduces its own set of problems.

More than that, it drastically favors whoever plays the higher tier. If you aren't playing Fox/Falco/Sheik vs someone who is, even if you ban the 8 worst stages, there are still 15+ stages they can pick to exploit very unfair things. A less extreme example: rewind to 2010, I was hosting Smashing Grounds with 20-30 people including Kels, Cosmo, Matt R, Tom R, Tink, etc. I decided to use a wider stage list with 2 bans instead of one (this was in the days of the Pound ruleset with Brinstar, RC and KJ still legal). The tipping point for me was watching Cosmo lose to Tom on Mute City; even though Cosmo played better, the ruleset favored Tom simply because he was playing a higher tier character (though Tom actually ended up winning the tournament in a 2 set upset over Kels!)

Also notice that more mid and low tier mains are finding success in this metagame over any metagame in the past. Other than the players' obvious individual skill, i attribute this occurrence to the changes in the stage list.

 

[Bones0]

Stages are banned for introducing elements of randomness to the gameplay, right? Why not just have all matches start on BF which is closest to true neutral we have, and then all stages legal for counterpicks and we just have to figure out how many bans to give people? If a player chooses with full knowledge to go to like Fourside lol why not? Granted you could argue that this gives the loser too much of an advantage going into game 2 contingent upon number of allowed counterpicks..

Why do you think BF is the closest to true neutral? What does neutral even mean? Whatever definition you come up for neutral, it will either vary depending on how the metagame evolves or be extremely opinion-based, likely both. Even if we could objectively determine that BF was somehow the most neutral, why should that mean it's always played for game 1? If BF is my weakest stage, I shouldn't have to play on it. If my opponent and I would both rather play on FoD or FD or any other stage, why shouldn't that be determined through stage striking to ensure no one is slighted by the stage selection rules?

You can't just allow all the stages and introduce more bans because players may feel it's in their benefit to take a better opponent to a stage with more randomness or a stage where they can abuse a low skilled tactic (stalling, primarily). It also leads to dumb scenarios where players play chicken at the stage select screen. You can imagine a Fox ditto where one Fox doesn't want to waste his ban on Hyrule because he doesn't think the opponent will choose it and force a dumb, laser battle game, but on the off chance he's wrong he has to play a boring game with a practically random winner.

When you throw counterpicking characters after stages into the mix, it gets even messier. Players feel forced to change to a secondary for many of the stages or risk their opponent changing and timing them out, but if they go a secondary and their opponent stays with their main, then suddenly it feels like you got double counterpicked. Not only are you playing on their preferred stage, but you're using a character you have less experience with just to make playing on the stage feasible. This is not something that only happens to low tiers, either. Plenty of high characters do not have the mobility to maneuver around stages. While I don't think we should ban any stage that seems weak for characters of low mobility, I also think it'd be dumb to allow a racetrack stage where whichever player plays the fastest character wins.