Legality Tentative: MBR Official Ruleset for 2012

[Kal]

Speaking of FC, do you plan on using the MBR rulest for this coming tournament?

 

[KishPrime]

So who are the rock stars with bulging biceps and stunningly good looks and hair that followed in my footsteps?

Also, on the day the MBR decided to do rulesets I'm pretty sure I swore forever that FC would never bear the brand of MBR-ruleset-approved, even if I just have to change one stage.

 

[Kal]

Just remove additional stages. It's following Smash tradition anyway.

 

[KishPrime]

That would fulfill my vow.

 

[Kal]

So it's decided. Brinstar only.

 

[KishPrime]

It is the most neutral stage.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

PokeFloats def needs some love.

 

[The Star King]

Pokefloats is far and away the most ballin' stage in the game. Also Flatzone is ****ing hilarious.

You're welcome for my input.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Can you announce the rules sometime so we can practice whatever jank you have in store?

 

[Bones0]

There will be hell to pay if GFs gets ruined because players are playing on ridiculous CPs.

 

[Kal]

By "ruined," Bones means "made awesome."

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, there was nothing more hype than PP vs. M2K on Rainbow Cruise. I'm mostly crossing my fingers to be able to watch Kage get timed out on Poke Floats.

 

[Dr Peepee]

he banned stadium =(

 

[Kal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f68VXKMZT1Q

 

[Bones0]

he banned stadium =(

Def not blaming you. Play to win.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he banned stadium =(

Where did he say that?

 

[Bones0]

Where did he say that?

He's talking about M2K... >_>

 

[Habefiet]

Where did he say that?

I think PP's point was that he would have taken M2K to Stadium had M2K not banned Stadium and took him to RC because it was the only CP he had that was actually a CP.

I like the ideas presented recently here of showing, say "These should always be banned," "These are basically always legal," "These are kind of TO's discretion," etc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh i thought he was saying that kishprime banned PS for the FC ruleset haha

 

[KishPrime]

I banned it nine times.

 

[Bing]

What would be interesting is for a group of people to come up with a group of stages outside of the current list. then do a vote to add a stage or two lol..

 

[Strong Badam]

Pretty sure it's already been decided. Mushroom Kingdom 2 will be played in every game of every set at FC10.

 

[Shai Hulud]

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=math

I approve. But my degree is in mathematics so I may be biased...

I wish I could pull off the "**** you, that's why" reasoning. I have too many people poring over my posts for any reason to complain.

If you read the article he actually gave a lot of other reasons for why math is valuable. "**** you, that's why" was not the crux of the argument by any means.

@Shai: I'm sorry I called you a nobody. My meaning wasn't "you are a nobody to me", and I said "I treat you like a nobody because you are hostile towards me," when I should have just said "I often don't pay attention to your posts because you are hostile towards me for reasons that I don't really get." I have nothing against you. I get that you feel ignored, but I honestly don't read every post in this thread. The peak of discussion here occurred a long while back, so I just pop in and skim once in a while. When something develops that has a concrete alternative suggestion rather than just a bunch of bickering over why its wrong, it will make its way to me. I'll be more than happy to respond to you in depth, but please drop the attitude.

You don't get it. I have nothing against you as a person. I object to your position as sole decider of the ruleset, and the limited (still undefined to me) input you have accepted from non-MBR members as to that ruleset. If someone else were sole decider of the ruleset, I would be arguing with that person. The problem is the system by which the rules are decided, not so much who is put in charge of that system. And if I have been excessively snarky in previous replies, I apologize.

Also I am aware that the peak of discussion took place long ago. I do not think you ignore others' input primarily based on my interactions with you, but based on the first 10 - 20 pages of the thread. As I have already stated in my previous post.

What exactly do you consider a concrete alternative suggestion? By suggesting it is wrong to exclude stages like Rainbow Cruise we are suggesting that these stages be included. How is this not concrete? Or do you mean an alternative suggestion that conforms to your (unknown) standards?

For the record these are the stages I would add
1. Rainbow Cruise
2. DK 64
3. Jungle Japes
4. Mute City
5. Brinstar
6. Corneria
7. Green Greens
8. MK II
9. Poke Floats

(Possibly I've forgotten one)

HOWEVER, I know some of these stages are more objectionable than others, and I would be satisfied with a smaller list. What I am not satisfied with is having no counterpick stages. I think at the very least there are no legitimate objections to

1. Rainbow Cruise
2. DK 64
3. Jungle Japes
4. Mute City

These stages have no randomness in them (Neither does Poke Floats but it moves faster than RC and is generally more objectionable, so I would be satisfied with just 1 moving stage). Alligator and cars are on timers. The only real objection to Rainbow Cruise is "It moves" but this is not legitimate IMO. It may be a Fox counterpick but this is why other counterpicks should be included as well. There are several counterpicks that are fairly bad for Fox. Brinstar is terrible. I find Brinstar more objectionable than these four because the acid is actually random, but it's not a huge issue to me. I think more is added to the game by having counterpicks than is taken away by small elements of randomness. Also I don't see any problems with MKII. I don't think walk off edges necessarily break the game. And the edges aren't connecting to the center so it's not like Fox can shine people all the way across the stage.

 

[Kal]

Actually, I really dislike Maddox's reasoning that "sucking at math is like sucking at cooking." Real math is nothing like following a recipe. Hating math is like hating art. It just doesn't make sense to me; there are some types you will like less than others, and you might not be particularly proficient or good at some types, but to hate it altogether is ridiculous.

I always link to this essay whenever the discussion comes up.

Where did you study math, Shai?

Also, if you see this thread, Cactuar tells me it was in part inspired by my dissent. There's some degree of Cactuar's hand being forced by pragmatism, as we had a conversation earlier in this thread about how he would handle the majority of Smashers wanting to ban Jigglypuff for subjective reasons. I'll see if I can find the specific post. I don't know how exactly the ruleset is reached, and how large of an impact Cactuar has in choosing the ruleset (I mean, it is the MBR ruleset, which presumably is created by the MBR entirely, and not just Cactuar), but I think it would be more appropriate to call Cactuar the head of the MBR, rather than the sole decider of the ruleset.

I think these issues come up when the MBR isn't transparent about how it handles things, and made more confusing by us not knowing which opinions reflect the MBR and which reflect the individuals who comprise it.

Found that post, by the way. Here.

if 90% of the community was just flat out saying "Jigglypuff is ruining my experience and I'm not going to tournaments where puff is legal", then yes [I would ban her]. Even if she was proven to truly be a mid-tier character and it wasn't about winning or losing, but just making everyone's experience miserable. In that extreme situation, Jigglypuff would be banned.

Sorry about the constant edits. My name is Kal, and I have a problem.

 

[KishPrime]

For the record these are the stages I would add
1. Rainbow Cruise
2. DK 64
3. Jungle Japes
4. Mute City
5. Brinstar
6. Corneria
7. Green Greens
8. MK II
9. Poke Floats

Off the top of my head, I would maybe rate them like so accounting for balance (I should add a "as much as there can actually be balance"), stage construction, and random factors?
1. Brinstar
2. Rainbow Cruise
3. MK II
4. Mute City
5. Corneria
6. Jungle Japes
7. DK 64
8. Green Greens

I think DK64 is a vastly overrated stage that has way more issues than any of the stages above it, and I think I might even take Green Greens over it. Also, I've never quite known what to think about PokeFloats. Honestly, I almost see Floats and Rainbow as duplicates in my mind, so I tend to think it's overkill to have both on. I like it when each stage actually contributes some unique properties.

I'm not saying these are all going to be on for FC, so let's not go down that path, please.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You don't get it. I have nothing against you as a person. I object to your position as sole decider of the ruleset, and the limited (still undefined to me) input you have accepted from non-MBR members as to that ruleset. If someone else were sole decider of the ruleset, I would be arguing with that person. The problem is the system by which the rules are decided, not so much who is put in charge of that system. And if I have been excessively snarky in previous replies, I apologize. center so it's not like Fox can shine people all the way across the stage.

dude do you seriously read posts or do you just read the first sentence of each paragraph or something? I havent seen you make a valid reply to one of cactuar's posts yet. So either you aren't reading or you aren't understanding; i prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't really seem to understand how things work around here and throw around all this **** like you do.

Btw, cactuar doesn't care if you don't like how the rules are decided. If you can come up with a better end result (ei, a better rule) he will consider it. Otherwise you're just pissing in the wind because you don't like him/the MBR/the government/the illuminati/whatever. Also the limited input from non-MBR members is because pretty much anyone who is worth having a discussion with is already in the MBR. Its not that he doesn't look at non-MBR members for input, its that they generally have less constructive content.

Just had to get that off my chest.

 

[Kal]

pretty much anyone who is worth having a discussion with is already in the MBR.

lolol

I think it's really stupid to act like the members of the MBR are some sort of special, extra-clever thinkers who provide especially constructive input. Lke they went to ruleset school and specialized in Super Smash Brothers: Melee or something.

At the end of the day, the only qualifications anyone in the MBR has with regards to creating a ruleset is specific to Smash. Which means, at best, someone can have more knowledge with respect to what specifically makes something broken or random. You're not any better than literally anyone on SWF at general ruleset discussion, specifically the meta discussion about how to create a ruleset and, in particular, what should be banned, just because you have a purple nametag.

And there are plenty of great posters, worthy of having discussions, who are not in the MBR. Do you know what elitism is?

 

[Strong Badam]

? I went to ruleset school. Had a 3.74 GPA.

 

[Kal]

Beats my 2.9 in Math.

 

[KishPrime]

Also the limited input from non-MBR members is because pretty much anyone who is worth having a discussion with is already in the MBR.

I think you're way out of line to even think this, much less say it. This line pretty much sums up everything that's wrong with the "Secret Back Room" mentality. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you hopefully did not mean this they way it came out.

Like they went to ruleset school and specialized in Super Smash Brothers: Melee or something.

I did this.

 

[Kal]

Strong Bad beat you to the joke, sadly. And his delivery was arguably better.

<3

 

[KishPrime]

I saw that.

EDIT: And it's not arguable. I got killed in humor points.

 

[Kal]

I donno, maybe somebody finds the number "3.74" really offensive. This political correctness trend forces me to start calling all humor "arguably funny."

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

While I'm not the one who accepts and rejects applications, I have noticed a pattern. If you are worth having a discussion with about melee, and you apply to the MBR, you will get in. Look at KishPrime a year ago. I'll be honest, I was shocked at first when he was accepted into the MBR. He hadn't played the game in 5 years and wasn't part of the scene. But then it came time to discuss rules and he was one of the best posters in the BR. Sometimes people who are "worth having a discussion with" are unrecognized and thus aren't in the MBR. Sometimes they haven't applied (like in your case, Kal). Sometimes people who are generally not worth having a discussion with have a spark of a good idea. Then there are people who make me facepalm when they post.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm still gonna go ahead and side with Prime & Kal about your statement, Sveet. The point of this thread being open and not locked is because there are non BR members that have something to contribute; if everyone that was "worth having a discussion with" were truly already in the BR then public opinion wouldn't be very important. But it is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh i agree. I was making a generalization. Of course its not true for everyone. Wasn't that clear? I was just saying that the disproportionate amount of ideas coming from the MBR than from the non-MBR is because of the disproportionate amount of "good posters" in the MBR compared to the non-MBR.

 

[Strong Badam]

You're a bad poster though
* *

 

[Kal]

The point, though, is that you should not ignore their input. If you can't explain to them why they are wrong, why are you right? You may think, for example, that someone asking "why is Hyrule banned? My friends and I play there and it's very fun and great for competition!" does not deserve a response. And, perhaps pragmatically, you would be right; if you don't know enough about the game to know why Hyrule should be banned, maybe go do some research.

But this leads to obvious problems. Suppose we were to ban Pokémon Stadium? We could similarly just dismiss any dissent with the exact same logic. "If it's not obvious to you, you're a ****ing noob." That logic is plainly circular.

I mean, you yourself have made posts that lead to face palms, in my opinion. Claiming that the metagame with hazards would necessarily lead to simply avoiding the hazards, like they are just obviously useless, was, in my opinion, a really stupid thing to say. But it wouldn't be fair to simply dismiss your claims because I think it's face palm worthy.

Really, addressing every complaint is the only actual self-check you can possibly have. Otherwise, you can dismiss everything on the premise of who posts it or whether it falls in line with preconceptions. This is why this elitist stance is so ridiculous, in my eyes.

And, even if you can argue that most non-MBR members are bad posters, and that the MBR consists of only good posters, this isn't really relevant to Shai's point. He's not asking for the entire community to vote on a ruleset or anything. He just (correctly) sees a ruleset created solely by the MBR, without input from non-MBR members, as having potential for overwhelming bias. This is especially true given that the MBR doesn't even create real, objective standards for its rule making.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm with you on that, Kal, but "Also the limited input from non-MBR members is because pretty much anyone who is worth having a discussion with is already in the MBR" is simply stating a generalization. Its fact that the MBR accepts the good posters who are knowledgeable and what not. I was simply explaining Shai's complaint, that it is not that Cactuar doesn't look at the non-MBR for advice; he does, in fact, but most of the rules come from the MBR members because the MBR members are the experienced players, debaters and TOs.

 

[Kal]

But you still haven't really addressed how much non-MBR input is provided. Just explaining that "most of the rules come from the MBR" does not really answer his questions or address his complaints.