TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT

[UncleSam]

ima try and get one, a friend told me about a store that has a few,
also one of my neighbors kids has one,
we play pokemon stadium 2 all the time

EDIT: lol @ paya
EDIT2: starfox 64 was too short

 

[payasofobia]

Anyone looking forward to Ragna in project SA?

 

[UncleSam]

lol I haven't been keeping up with project SA
not interested in ike *puts up flame shield*

 

[payasofobia]

It is futile, because my flame rapier pierces through shields!

 

[Emperor Time]

Sol>Ragna.

 

[payasofobia]

Sorry dude, can't hear yo over the sound of HOW ****ING ANGRY I AM!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGW8L61KzAU

 

[Emperor Time]

I've heard manlier songs.

 

[payasofobia]

No you haven't.

Enjoy not being manly.


BRB when JOE! comes.

 

[uhmuzing]

Uh, I think y'all got a bit off-topic, don't ya think?

 

[Emperor Time]

Hell, yeah.

I looked at the last page expecting debate...

And I got this

I just went with it, though 8)

 

[adumbrodeus]

Im looking at lucarios legs, and his weight, and concluding there is no way he can brake a human bone with a kick. And plus, wario is fat, he has some fat layers to protect his bones too :D.

And, no, lucario dosent have a "highly concentrated muscle mass" on his legs, hell, they are finner than his arms. They are so thin i think its easier his bone BREAKING from his own kick, then him breaking warios leg.

Exactly, lucario is not a human, he is a pokemon, and as far as i know, pokemons arent like naturally stronger than humans.

*sigh*

Look at the build dude, you're COMPLETELY ignoring the build.

For God's sake, LOOK AT HIS THIGHS!

Nuff said.

His overall body structure is a a lot like a big cat (which again, are extremely powerful with relatively thin limbs and overall body structure).

Humans just aren't built like that though, we're built for endurance, and something with that build (since it is an animal) is gonna have similar functionality to a big cat overall.

Minus his crazy thighs and the fact that he can stand up straight which means he can use them for kicking.

No, see, it's irrelevant as to whether or not I've ever held a sword. Have you ever heard of special pleading?

You're missing the point, from the way you talk about it, I could tell that you have no clue.

I suppose you didn't see the part where I said that even if the sword is heavy, it's only hindering Zelda. After all, it's "MAAAD heavy," right?

You misunderstand.

It's MAAAD heavy for melee weapon. That's the core assumption of this entire discussion, and again, the fact that you didn't realize I was talking about it in that sense show's how well you understand melee weaponry.

What makes it "MAAAD heavy" for a melee weapon is the fact that the weight compounds the natural awkwardness of the weapon itself (which is something that can only be negated by decreasing the size).


That doesn't decrease movement speed (much), it makes the weapon harder to handle and decreases swing speed.

Why would I want to argue against what Fox has at his disposal? If Fox gets his Blaster, as I said before, Samus gets her weapon. I don't see what's scientifically impossible about a pistol like ZSS'.

Electricity does not work like that. Nuff said.


PS. In case you're wondering, I dropped the point cause I took a second look at the picture, and she wasn't opposing the entire crowd.

Still, getting thrown that easily is a mark of weakness on the part of the person in question, throw universally require interaction between you and the opponent, so if it occurs from a situation that's not a grapple, you suck.

 

[Kewkky]

Uhh, just to throw this out...

The human body is extremely frail, compared to an animal's body (more like a top-notch predator, actually) who's been conditioned to survive in the wilderness. A normal human is spoiled by how easy life has been made, thanks to our lazy-man inventions such as "cars", "wheelcarts", "guns", and the such. Physically-fit humans are much more durable, and can stand a whole lot more than the average human. Overweight humans are more durable than normal ones, but worse than physically-fit people, and also are quite sluggish in movement thanks to the body mass and howthe body has not been . Wario stands in the "overweight" category.


Lucario is a beast, an animal. Actually, a mix between human and animal. He's got physical conditioning, has the natural physical limitation as top predators have, and is also a martial arts expert. What more do you want? A fast and strong ****** can overpower an average-sized fat man any day.

 

[JOE!]

points:

1) how is lucario stronger than something that is overall bigger, and with more muscle mass?

look at his dang torso, and arms for that matter, all he has going for him is legs, which arent *that* humungous (the bottom part of his thigh is hanging hair)

2) why would lucario know how to take down a human-like opponent with those kinda throws when he fights poketmonsters? (unless he only fought like Machokes....)

3) Diddy was pointed out to have baboon strength

4) As said in the vs Diddy: how would lucario grab for a throw with no grasping digits?

5) Lucario's steel type relates to his spikes

6) The lady in question lifted something on an axis (wheels) and was fueled by adrenaline (super-juice)

7) The sprawl is not the uber defense move Sam, i actually used to trick opponents while wreslting to do it so i can get a fireman's carry (shot in to my knees, held one hand behind my head, elbowed dude in the face, wrapped arm around head, shot forward arm under, stand )

 

[Kewkky]

1) how is lucario stronger than something that is overall bigger, and with more muscle mass?

look at his dang torso, and arms for that matter, all he has going for him is legs, which arent *that* humungous (the bottom part of his thigh is hanging hair)

Have you heard about Aikido?

"Aikido is performed by blending with the motion of the attacker and redirecting the force of the attack rather than opposing it head-on. This requires very little physical energy, as the aikidōka (aikido practitioner) "leads" the attacker's momentum using entering and turning movements. The techniques are completed with various throws or joint locks.[3] Aikido can be categorized under the general umbrella of grappling arts."

Practically, all Lucario needs is a sturdy set of legs for sustaining the weight of the opponent if he's using his body as a platform.

2) why would lucario know how to take down a human-like opponent with those kinda throws when he fights poketmonsters? (unless he only fought like Machokes....)

See above post.

3) Diddy was poi

nted out to have baboon strength

...? Ok...? o_O

Then what's the relative strength of Lucario?

4) As said in the vs Diddy: how would lucario grab for a throw with no grasping digits?

Grasping digits? Please explain.

5) Lucario's steel type relates to his spikes

Then I guess that settles the steel-type thing.

6) The lady in question lifted something on an axis (wheels) and was fueled by adrenaline (super-juice)

..........................?

7) The sprawl is not the uber defense move Sam, i actually used to trick opponents while wreslting to do it so i can get a fireman's carry (shot in to my knees, held one hand behind my head, elbowed dude in the face, wrapped arm around head, shot forward arm under, stand )

Uhh. Aikido's more probable.

 

[payasofobia]

Hmmn....totally forgot about Lucario's lack of fingers, or more exactly, lack of thumbs.....he would not be able to grab Wario or punch him properly.


And Kirby-man, in the Diddy match, we calculated that Diddy's probable strenght could be that of a chimp, which is 5 times stronger than a human.

But for some reason we settled for baboon strenght.


JOE!, you may have saved this match-up for Wario.


And lately, this fights have been shifting radicaly from one's character's advntage to another's. Weird.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You ended the Zsamus/Zelda match-up with WAY too little time. You've got a bad habit of doing this now.

points:

1) how is lucario stronger than something that is overall bigger, and with more muscle mass?

look at his dang torso, and arms for that matter, all he has going for him is legs, which arent *that* humungous (the bottom part of his thigh is hanging hair)

Because Wario's built wrong.

Because humans are built wrong.

2) why would lucario know how to take down a human-like opponent with those kinda throws when he fights poketmonsters? (unless he only fought like Machokes....)

Cause a lot of them are generalized enough to work on things that aren't drastically different, and most fighting pokemon are human-shape.

You really get fridge logic about machoke using submission on an onix.

3) Diddy was pointed out to have baboon strength

Same basic principal though, big cats also do signifigantly better in the muscle department then humans, and Lucario's built like a big cat.

4) As said in the vs Diddy: how would lucario grab for a throw with no grasping digits?

A lot of the stuf we're talking about uses arm as the "grapsing mechanism".. For other things, paws work.

Actually, a lot of martial arts discourage grapsing with thumb for anything other then weapons because you can't lock most things anyway, and it's a lot more dangerous.

5) Lucario's steel type relates to his spikes

Again, no, that doesn't explain his weaknesses and resistances. The spikes don't have anywhere near enough body coverage to actually give him the properties, and I see no evidence that an otherwise internally consistent system just suddenly goes inconsistent.

The spikes are manifestations of armor under the surface.

Hmmn....totally forgot about Lucario's lack of fingers, or more exactly, lack of thumbs.....he would not be able to grab Wario properly.


And Kirby-man, in the Diddy match, we calculated that Diddy's probable strenght is that of a chimp, which is 5 times stronger than a human.

But for some reason we settled for baboon strenght.


JOE!, you may have saved this match-up for Wario.

No, thumbs aren't really necessary for grappling (except for finger-locks, and we know THAT will define the match-up, right?) because you can't use thumbs to lock in almost any limbs, our fingers are too short and many arts discourage it, because thumbs are relatively vulnerable.

Kali being a notable example.

 

[payasofobia]

But are lucario's 'fingers' long enough to actually grab Wario? From this image, his 'fingers' are very short and chubby. I doubt he would be able to grab Wario properly.

Just try grabbing a struggling person with your fingers bended and without your thumbs.


Will go to sleep in a few moments.

 

[JOE!]

i meant for actual grasping or holding liek a monk grip, lucario has paws...(and no claws)

as for not built right?

you are saying lucario is built like a big cat:

=/=

Wario has big muscular arms and a big chest, hes a strong dude, i can see him overpowering lucario quite easily if he doesnt like get kicked in the temple


at the steel skin thing, point out something in nauture that has a hard layer under it;s skin and is also flexible enough to do the stuff we say lucario can do.

He'd be uber-nerfed as far as movement goes


Diddy didnt have chimp strength because he was more like a large baboon (didnt have the resemblane to a chimp other than face, as well as the tail..)

Last i checked baboons dont have teh super ape strength our cousins (gorilla/chimp) have.

 

[Sieguest]

lol wow...

I'm going lucario...

@payasofobia's picture...

Why fingers bended?
Lucario isn't human-he can totally have a different way of grabbing things than a human does...

Elephants use their trunk
Tigers and Lions use thier paws...
Lucario uses his paws...


@JOE!- Strength doesn't matter if that strength can be used against him...

 

[payasofobia]

But he would require both paws to be used at opposite sides, and even then the grasp would be weak because of a lack of a firm grip to keep the clothes or body parts in place.

Not counting the fact that many of Lucario's grabs and throws that require grabbing the opponents will not work, severely limiting Lucario's reversals, which would have killed Wario.

But I guess that he has still a lot of options based on Adum's post.

Would look for more information but it is too late and I don't know if I will endure it.

 

[JOE!]

@marthage

does lucario have a trunk? no...

lions and tigers DO NOT use their paws, they use their CLAWS

does lucario have those...?

 

[Sieguest]

But he would require both paws to be used at opposite sides, and even then the grasp would be weak because of a lack of a firm grip to keep the clothes or body parts in place.

Not counting the fact that many of Lucario's grabs and throws that require grabbing the opponents will not work, severely limiting Lucario's reversals, which would have killed Wario.

All lucario needs to do is use his paws as a means to guide Wario when Wario comes into range......Lucario works with the opponent's force not against it...

Remember that Lucario will use Wario, so why need to control his entrance...

Lead Wario in...
Use his powerful legs
work the mojo...

@JOE!- Lions and Tigers are not totally dependent on their claws in grasping...that leaves an ineffective means of stopping prey...
they must also maintain grip with their paws as well...if they didn't rey moving at high speed would just rend itself on the claws and pull away...(and probably die later)

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

force palm in brawl. thats a legit grab and punch.

And lucario has steel spikes in the back of his hands. easily tearing thru flesh. better then claws.

 

[JOE!]

what if wario grabs his arm, and gets him off his feet?

@guy above me

the spikes dont look particularly sharp, and only good in a chest bump or good old fashioned backhand

 

[payasofobia]

Sure, but that is only if Wario mindlessly rushes against Lucario and does exactly what he wants him to do, like in a practice. If we go by a real fight then it would end up with both opponents on the ground, grappling each other.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R797LamA3Vw&feature=related

 

[Sieguest]

what if wario grabs his arm, and gets him off his feet?

@guy above me

the spikes dont look particularly sharp, and only good in a chest bump or good old fashioned backhand

Again if Wario is grabs...Lucario can still use Wario's force in charging to reverse the grab...

work the mojo...

Payasofobia- In a martail arts type of scale...the more speed you have the more deadly you are...
even if you're weak, you can use your speed to get around your opponent and hit the pressure spots...
break bones and all sorts of other cool stuff...

If Wario isn't trying to rush Lucario, then Lucario out-manuevers and out skills Wario...
Skill>>>>>>Strength anyday...

 

[payasofobia]

Not gonna work if Wario is careful or if Wario drop each other into the ground.

And no fighting style is unbeatable.

And Aikido is used to grow spiritualy and achieve fitness.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But are lucario's 'fingers' long enough to actually grab Wario? From this image, his 'fingers' are very short and chubby. I doubt he would be able to grab Wario properly.

Just try grabbing a struggling person with your fingers bended and without your thumbs.


Will go to sleep in a few moments.

I never said they were particularly good, but they're usable to a limited capacity.

But again, most of the stuff we're talking about uses the arm to grab, not the fingers.

i meant for actual grasping or holding liek a monk grip, lucario has paws...(and no claws)

as for not built right?

you are saying lucario is built like a big cat:

=/=

Wario has big muscular arms and a big chest, hes a strong dude, i can see him overpowering lucario quite easily if he doesnt like get kicked in the temple


at the steel skin thing, point out something in nauture that has a hard layer under it;s skin and is also flexible enough to do the stuff we say lucario can do.

He'd be uber-nerfed as far as movement goes


Diddy didnt have chimp strength because he was more like a large baboon (didnt have the resemblane to a chimp other than face, as well as the tail..)

Last i checked baboons dont have teh super ape strength our cousins (gorilla/chimp) have.

I was thinking more like a panther.

Granted, it's not exact, he has a thinner mid-build, but the broad shoulders, and the hind leg configuration definately does fit, as does most of the mid-section.

I'm sorry, but humans can't have that big of a gut that's totally muscle. Our muscle doesn't even come in that configuration. At best we're talking about the muscle mass of somebody half his weight, granted, his bulk has it's uses, but in this particular match-up, I don't see Lucario having any compunctions about kicking out his knee.


Also, babboons have a great deal more strength then normal humans. Pretty much everyone in the animal kingdom our size or larger does, we're not built for strength, we're built for endurance.

Not gonna work if Wario is careful or if Wario drop each other into the ground.

And no fighting style is unbeatable.

But pretty much EVERY fighting style is unbeatable if you lack training and expirience. Wario... not exactly the best trained fighter there is.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Thats why Lucario knows like, every fighting style. Like MMA stuff. Know something for any situation. Its not like Wario is going to pull some slick stuff. Look at the facts. Lucario is a supposed master fighter. Wario is overweight, stubby, and slow. Wario could be twice Lucario's weight. Its still in Lucarios favor.

 

[Sieguest]

Not gonna work if Wario is careful or if Wario drop each other into the ground.

And no fighting style is unbeatable.

And Aikido is used to grow spiritualy and achieve fitness.

Self defense son....

true no fighting style is unbeatable...
but you can get pretty darn close...


If Wario drops Lucario to the ground, then once again there are skills to trump this too...

Lucario can still use Wario's own strength against him...turn the tables...kinda like UFC but more onesided...

 

[Emperor Time]

Lucario is simply the more intelligent fighter. Pure, immature power will seldom help you against a guy that knows 9001 ways to kill you.

 

[JOE!]

we dont need strength, we has weapons, and ph1r3

anyways, i still dont see how you compare lucario to a big cat....he's much too slim, and his arms are all wrong

as for strength, we're stronger than elephants

sure, they can lift massive weights, but they can only do what? like 1/16 of their mass?

we can lift like...1.5

And rhino beetles are just OP with the whole 850x....

anyways, i dont see lucario having the upper body to compliment his legs with throws and whatnot, and wario has the build to resist such tactics if he tries

 

[payasofobia]

He has enough strenght to **** up lucario in a single hit. And if he goes wrestling then Lucario will be in a bad position.


And there is also the thing that in fights are not practices. We are acting as if Lucario will react properly to every one of Wario's attacks, and that Wario will just rush stupidly into Lucario.

And Aikido is a bad example of a martial arts. It is very inpractical and most of the teachings are not realistic.


And ET, have you not heard the saying: I fear not the man who has practiced 100 kicks one time, but the one that has practiced one kick 100 times.

 

[Sieguest]

we dont need strength, we has weapons, and ph1r3

anyways, i still dont see how you compare lucario to a big cat....he's much too slim, and his arms are all wrong

as for strength, we're stronger than elephants

sure, they can lift massive weights, but they can only do what? like 1/16 of their mass?

we can lift like...1.5

And rhino beetles are just OP with the whole 850x....

anyways, i dont see lucario having the upper body to compliment his legs with throws and whatnot, and wario has the build to resist such tactics if he tries

Physics says otherwise...

More mass(Wario is big)+more speed (from Lucario's throw)= More Force...(which is more pain for Wario)


And dicussing Lucario's build...
that's just like me saying I don't think Wario has the legs to compliment the speed you guys have given him....>_>


@Payasofobia-Makes total sense..
something trained in all the arts of fighting totally hasn't practiced and conditioned itself to many situations...
have you taken classes in any style?>_>

Your saying holds so true...
Lucario has practiced 100 kicks 100 times....>_>
Fear him son...

 

[Emperor Time]

Wario isn't a fighting genius like Lucario. Evading and countering attacks will be like childs play to Lucario.

 

[payasofobia]

How can you be so sure?

Lucario may be more skilled, but like I said in the Diddy vs Luke fight, fighting genius is going to do little if your opponent outclasses you in strenght and instead uses a sure win, in your face style to defeat you.

And knowing a lot of styles is not going to be useful if only 5 of those are practical.

Sure, Diddy lost but only because they decided to give him baboon strenght.

 

[Sieguest]

How can you be so sure?

Lucario may be more skilled, but like I said in the Diddy vs Luke fight, fighting genius is going to do little if your opponent outclasses you in strenght and instead uses a sure win, in your face style to defeat you.

Sure, Diddy lost but only because they decided to give him baboon strenght.

Proves the point son....
Baboons are stronger than humans....>_>

Wario is human...

If Lucario could beat something with Baboon Strength
Then something with only human strength is just pff....

Plus reversals son......can't stress that enough...

 

[Emperor Time]

Let's not forget the fact that Diddy is swifter than Wario.

 

[payasofobia]

BTW, where did it said that Lucario knows all fighting styles in the world? Looked at both bulbapedia and serebii, and found nothing.....

 

[JOE!]

Proves the point son....
Baboons are stronger than humans....>_>

Wario is human...

If Lucario could beat something with Baboon Strength
Then something with only human strength is just pff....

Plus reversals son......can't stress that enough...

baboons arent nec. stronger, remember, diddy was SMALLER than Luc

Wario is MUCH BIGGER, and has decent muscle mass for a human (even if he is also tubby...)