Well, I'm pretty sure more people have voted Lucario. Me, I'm ready for a new match-up....
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TDB: SEASON 2! LEON (RE4) vs LARA CROFT
- Thread starter JOE!
- Start date
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Whatever the hell Lucario's spikes and claws are made of, they can do some damage. Diddy, resembling a baboon, is around the same size and weight as Lucario, but still Lucario is bigger. Lucario also has the advantage of speed and agility, not to mention stealth.
As Smashbot pointed out, Lucario resembles a canine, mostly a jackal, who eat other animals (big OR small). I'm pretty sure a jackal, if it put up a god fight, could take out a baboon and eat it as a snack. But here, we're talking about an ENHANCED jackal. A bi-pedaling jackal with near-human intelligence and much more speed and agility can take out a baboon in no time. Of course, Diddy IS a smarter baboon, but still, that doesn't really mean anything when going against Lucario.
Think about it this way: Diddy is strong, smart, and fast, but Lucario is everything Diddy is PLUS some. Luario is bigger, he most likely has more power, Lucario is faster and more agile, but I'm pretty sure their intelligence would equal in amount.
Lucario wins.
As Smashbot pointed out, Lucario resembles a canine, mostly a jackal, who eat other animals (big OR small). I'm pretty sure a jackal, if it put up a god fight, could take out a baboon and eat it as a snack. But here, we're talking about an ENHANCED jackal. A bi-pedaling jackal with near-human intelligence and much more speed and agility can take out a baboon in no time. Of course, Diddy IS a smarter baboon, but still, that doesn't really mean anything when going against Lucario.
Think about it this way: Diddy is strong, smart, and fast, but Lucario is everything Diddy is PLUS some. Luario is bigger, he most likely has more power, Lucario is faster and more agile, but I'm pretty sure their intelligence would equal in amount.
Lucario wins.
Now, Diddy IS smart; there's no denying that. But I believe that Lucario's mind power and intelligence outstrips Diddy K's. I also do not believe that Diddy is as large as Lucario. His build puts his strength above average, but I don't think Lucario has been given enough credit for strength. He can match Diddy; Lucario is also more experienced and skilled at combat. His style of martial arts is more refined than Diddy's childish tactics and strategies.
Wild Pokemon don't fight as often as you might think. Diddy's been through more scraps than Lucario. Also, what level is Lucario and what moves does he know?
Lucario has a vast amount of moves in his arsenal. Close Combat, Bullet Punch, Iron Defense (though I suppose its legality is debatable), and Quick Attack to name a few. And I don't think his level matters here.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
As stated earlier (maybe in the Snake vs. Wolf debate), experience doesn't matter here. Snake can take down enormous machines with guns and missiles and stuff like that, but yet the debate still came out a draw.
Why? Because Snake is a protagonist, he was programmed to do that, just like Diddy was programmed to fight and beat all these bosses and enemies he encountered. Imagine the two transported to a realistic setting, and they have no recollection of anything that they ever accomplished or anything that ever happened. All they know is that they have to fight, and one of them will win.
Fast forward and hour or two later, and Lucario wins. End of Story.
And by the way, I don't think "level" exists here. Its not a pokemon game, its a realistic setting. Its natural fighting skill that Lucario uses to beat Diddy Kong and his primitive punching and biting, etc.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Im still trying to figure out exactly what Lucario can pull off, his arms blow compared to diddy's, leaving his legs for a reasonable offense, and the occasional swipe with his spike hand.
Diddy on the other hand can grapple lucario, and render his kung fu-moves near useless seing as lucario wont have many means to pry him off seeing as he has no way to hold onto diddy.
Please remember that while near teh same size, diddy is more heavily built, while lucario is more lanky. This means that Diddy should be stronger...
Diddy on the other hand can grapple lucario, and render his kung fu-moves near useless seing as lucario wont have many means to pry him off seeing as he has no way to hold onto diddy.
Please remember that while near teh same size, diddy is more heavily built, while lucario is more lanky. This means that Diddy should be stronger...
I will concede the point. His build gives proof to that statement, I suppose.
Snail
Smash Lord
Lucario has a base special attack of 115. This is more than Infernape's attack or special attack stats, and Infernape is definitely the more powerful and intimidating monkey compared to Diddy Kong >__>
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Even though Diddy has a slightly better structure, you HAVE to admit, it really isn't that much greater than Lucario's. Plus, Lucario is a bit bigger anyway and can bi-pedal, so his strength is pretty close to Diddy's.
Now that we've concluded that Lucario's and Diddy's strength and size are pretty much even, we have to look at fighting styles. Diddy uses monkey-like combat, which means he will charge, bit, and jump onto enemies. Lucario is quick and agile enough to dodge Diddy's lunges, and even if Diddy does latch on, that doesn't necessarily mean Lucario is done for.
Now Lucario is much faster and more agile (as I've stated numerous times), and Lucario is born with fighting instinct. He can use advanced fighting techniques that make's Diddy's fighting look primitive.
Now, you can't say Diddy's arms are more muscular than Lucario's because the two are pretty even. But when you look at their legs, Lucario has the upper hand. Powerful legs and large feet can create a pretty deadly kick mixed in with all those advanced fighting moves and techniques, not to mention speed and agility. What more do you need?
Now that we've concluded that Lucario's and Diddy's strength and size are pretty much even, we have to look at fighting styles. Diddy uses monkey-like combat, which means he will charge, bit, and jump onto enemies. Lucario is quick and agile enough to dodge Diddy's lunges, and even if Diddy does latch on, that doesn't necessarily mean Lucario is done for.
Now Lucario is much faster and more agile (as I've stated numerous times), and Lucario is born with fighting instinct. He can use advanced fighting techniques that make's Diddy's fighting look primitive.
Now, you can't say Diddy's arms are more muscular than Lucario's because the two are pretty even. But when you look at their legs, Lucario has the upper hand. Powerful legs and large feet can create a pretty deadly kick mixed in with all those advanced fighting moves and techniques, not to mention speed and agility. What more do you need?
JOE!
Smash Hero
what I need is what fighting techniques lucario can actually do with his frame, and his arms are NOT stronger, they are very skinny, which means they are not built for strength.
Yes, Lucario is slightly bigger, but Diddy is more burly.
Take this for example:
Two kids, one shorter and more muscly, and one that is taller and skinny.
The taller kid is much leaner, but weighs a bit more due to his height, the shorter kid is shorter, but weighs nearly as much as the taller kid due to his build, which is muscular.
Who would be stronger?
Yes, Lucario is slightly bigger, but Diddy is more burly.
Take this for example:
Two kids, one shorter and more muscly, and one that is taller and skinny.
The taller kid is much leaner, but weighs a bit more due to his height, the shorter kid is shorter, but weighs nearly as much as the taller kid due to his build, which is muscular.
Who would be stronger?
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
Joe, when you take responsibility of this thread, you can't be biased, that just isn't fair. 
Anyway... Lucario is a bit bigger than Diddy, but Diddy is a bit more muscular than Lucario. Comparing their arms, you can't really say Diddy is way more muscular than Lucario, they're pretty even. And, you can't really say Lucario is much taller than Diddy, they're pretty even there too. Now if Diddy's arms were a ton more muscular, than it still would be even, considering Lucario's powerful, muscular legs are much better than Diddy's stubby legs.
So that concludes that the two are basically even when it comes to structure. Now how about actual fighting ability.
Honestly, who do you think would win the fighting ability debate? *cough*Lucario*cough*.
Okay, more people have voted Lucario obviously (hmmm, I wonder why...), so I think its time to move on. We've been on this for a while, Lucario wins, NEW MATCH-UP!.
Anyway... Lucario is a bit bigger than Diddy, but Diddy is a bit more muscular than Lucario. Comparing their arms, you can't really say Diddy is way more muscular than Lucario, they're pretty even. And, you can't really say Lucario is much taller than Diddy, they're pretty even there too. Now if Diddy's arms were a ton more muscular, than it still would be even, considering Lucario's powerful, muscular legs are much better than Diddy's stubby legs.
So that concludes that the two are basically even when it comes to structure. Now how about actual fighting ability.
Honestly, who do you think would win the fighting ability debate? *cough*Lucario*cough*.
Okay, more people have voted Lucario obviously (hmmm, I wonder why...
), so I think its time to move on. We've been on this for a while, Lucario wins, NEW MATCH-UP!.
This is becoming a bit irritating... but Joe's doing a fine job. Can we count the votes?
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
I agree, count the votes so this can finally be over, we've been on it for a while and I'm tired of bringing up the same points over and over. We need a new-match up.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Joe, when you take responsibility of this thread, you can't be biased, that just isn't fair.
Anyway... Lucario is a bit bigger than Diddy, but Diddy is a bit more muscular than Lucario. Comparing their arms, you can't really say Diddy is way more muscular than Lucario, they're pretty even. And, you can't really say Lucario is much taller than Diddy, they're pretty even there too. Now if Diddy's arms were a ton more muscular, than it still would be even, considering Lucario's powerful, muscular legs are much better than Diddy's stubby legs.
So that concludes that the two are basically even when it comes to structure. Now how about actual fighting ability.
Honestly, who do you think would win the fighting ability debate? *cough*Lucario*cough*.
Okay, more people have voted Lucario obviously (hmmm, I wonder why...
Im not being Biase,d im simply presenting information for diddy which has not been presented.
Regardless, Lucario wins due to better fighting ability.
Gonna give a ratio of:
643 / 357 Lucario is bred to fight, Diddy has backup wherever he goes.
Lucario has advantages where it really matters: reflexes, natural weaponary and skill, where Diddy has strength.
Now, Diddy had a chance here with lucario in the fact that he could grapple with Lucario and put him in an advantageous position, but due to Lucario's fighting style and natural weaponary/speed, there wont be many situations where Diddy can set himself up fro that.
New mathcup momentarily.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
YAY! Glad thats over!Regardless, Lucario wins due to better fighting ability.
Gonna give a ratio of:
New mathcup momentarily.
Interesting match-up.... Well, lets start. I suppose first, that we discuss Roy's mobility and his ability to approach Young Link without being hit by arrows.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
That's Roy's only disadvantage here. Other than that, Roy is no doubt a better swordsman, and he has more armor as well. I guess it just depends on where they are; If they are distanced, Young Link would have an advantage because he has arrows, but Roy still has his armor in that situation.
If they are close, Young Link is dead. Roy has more skill with a sword I would imagine.
I'm going to say Roy...
smashbot226
Smash Master
Roy is considered the worst Fire Emblem lord to be spawned. Yet in THIS matchup, he can keep up fairly well with Young Link. I'm going to refer to the second one because it'd be a Melee matchup; a first in this thread. I don't want any crossover bullshat.
So, Roy is essentially more powerful yet slower version of Marth with an innate skill over swords. UNLIKE Marth, Roy can essentially kill in one shot. However, they have the same problem of lacking armor, only being backed by shoulder pads. The fire effects would also not be taken into account, but Roy still has strength and skill.
Young Link is just a kid, but he's been through a lot; defeating a wide host of creatures, saving the world from death by moon, and has TECHNICALLY sailed his four corners to defeat a revived warlord. Despite all that, he has a strength disadvantage over Roy, because; well, he's a freaking KID. Sure, the Hero of Time and all that, but he's still only a KID. Luckily, what he lacks in strength, he makes up for in speed and equipment. He's got Deku Nuts, his Deku Shield, Fairy Slingshot, and other such items. However, most of these suggested items are non-lethal, so they are really only MEANT to weaken and disorient Roy enough to deliver a final blow. Still, Young Link has the equipment and speed advantage, because he's the smaller target and is much more agile than Roy.
Essentially, this boils down to if Roy can reach Young Link and land a shot on the constantly-on-the-move kid, because one hit will seal the deal. Meanwhile, Young Link can pester Roy with non-lethal weaponry and stun him to the point f being able to get close enough to deliver the death blow.
It's an even match, but I'm giving the edge to Roy, simply because he's the stronger and more skilled of the two; he's perfectly capable of dodging arrows in his world. Then again, Young Link is also acrobatic, using backflips and side-rolls to get out of the way of attacks.
So, Roy is essentially more powerful yet slower version of Marth with an innate skill over swords. UNLIKE Marth, Roy can essentially kill in one shot. However, they have the same problem of lacking armor, only being backed by shoulder pads. The fire effects would also not be taken into account, but Roy still has strength and skill.
Young Link is just a kid, but he's been through a lot; defeating a wide host of creatures, saving the world from death by moon, and has TECHNICALLY sailed his four corners to defeat a revived warlord. Despite all that, he has a strength disadvantage over Roy, because; well, he's a freaking KID. Sure, the Hero of Time and all that, but he's still only a KID. Luckily, what he lacks in strength, he makes up for in speed and equipment. He's got Deku Nuts, his Deku Shield, Fairy Slingshot, and other such items. However, most of these suggested items are non-lethal, so they are really only MEANT to weaken and disorient Roy enough to deliver a final blow. Still, Young Link has the equipment and speed advantage, because he's the smaller target and is much more agile than Roy.
Essentially, this boils down to if Roy can reach Young Link and land a shot on the constantly-on-the-move kid, because one hit will seal the deal. Meanwhile, Young Link can pester Roy with non-lethal weaponry and stun him to the point f being able to get close enough to deliver the death blow.
It's an even match, but I'm giving the edge to Roy, simply because he's the stronger and more skilled of the two; he's perfectly capable of dodging arrows in his world. Then again, Young Link is also acrobatic, using backflips and side-rolls to get out of the way of attacks.
Semmick
Smash Journeyman
T/Y Link is faster and smaller so they could just keep running away and shooting the fire/normal arrows to keep Roy at bay
I'm going to Young Link for now, because of a few reasons. Firstly, while some may argue that Roy can dodge arrows, Young Link can fire them reasonably fast and with admirable accuracy. That'll hinder Roy's approach. The second thing is that Young Link might (or might not) be faster, for he has always been faster than his adult counterpart as well as being a fast kid overall. This is debatable, ofcourse, because Roy is older and is therefore may be faster. Though Roy isn't that old... Young Link is, thirdly, more acrobatic than Roy and very capable of avoiding Roy for a time in close combat. Roy won't neccesarily kill off Link immediately if he got close enough. Young Link also can attack at a lower angle. Roy will have to worry about guarding his legs.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Last word, because my extremely informative post was ignored before.
Lucario has spikes and legs that are heavily muscled enough to be equivalent to a bludgeoning weapon. Plus, he's shown ability to use "pick-up" weapons (aka, bone club).
Against Diddy, it's 100% "helps", so his defense score is deceptively low.
Again, Lucario is built like a tiger or panther, being small (as diddy illustrates) does not make you physically weak.
As far as overall strength goes, Diddy is probably stronger, but Lucario's got important strength advantages in certain areas, and is definitely more toned.
Look at Lucario's legs. They're amazingly heavily musculed relative to the rest of his body. That alone tells us that he's capable of more movement speed.
That, and the tactical know-how.
Humans=weak reletive to the pokemon world.
Even if it was made for practitioners of the same style, that only matters with grappling. Striking, it doesn't.
If it does, HELLO LARGE PROTRUDING SPIKES! The on on the chest is especially well place. He can improvise.
Based on the only REALISTIC MEASURE (aka, his body's construction), he's fast and capable of very large leaps.
A kick to the face will PULP Diddy's face. Period. Again, look at his leg construction.
Also, Lucario is larger then diddy.
Grappling isn't really based on strength, unless the differences are extreme. Plus, if lucario gets him in a leg-hold, Diddy is crushed.
Also, Steel spikes do not explain steel typing, it would have to be his entire body.
Furthermore, they're issues with Diddy winning a grapping fight. They're both small and heavy (though diddy is more extreme), so it should be within the tolerances of skill>strenght.
Furthermore, diddy has few safe areas to grapple Lucario with, due to those pesky spikes. The chest one is especially dangerous, because it means the only safe position to grapple against Lucario's front is in Lucario's guard, with Lucario's extremely powerful legs, that position royally sucks for Diddy because Lucario can just choke him out from there, perhaps even crush him. Grappling his side or back works, but they're much harder to get, and if he's forced to the front, Diddy's dead.
Overall, Lucario's got the grappling advantage.
Now vs.
This is Roy's advantage, if for no other reason, for better overall physical conditioning and more years of expirience.
Keep in mind that young link can't use (not doesn't have, can't use, in other words, doesn't have the strength required) the bow. He has the boomerang, but in real life, unless it's bladed, it's not a threat. This is a melee fight, and Roy simply has too much of an edge in expirience.
Natural Weapons.
Lucario has spikes and legs that are heavily muscled enough to be equivalent to a bludgeoning weapon. Plus, he's shown ability to use "pick-up" weapons (aka, bone club).
Except that unimpressive defense is in the aether, in other words it doesn't take into account his natural armor because that's "typed", steel-typed to be precise, and therefore contributes to his defense sometimes, and hurts it other times (mostly helps, for those keeping score on Steel's type advantages").
Against Diddy, it's 100% "helps", so his defense score is deceptively low.
Again, Lucario is built like a tiger or panther, being small (as diddy illustrates) does not make you physically weak.
As far as overall strength goes, Diddy is probably stronger, but Lucario's got important strength advantages in certain areas, and is definitely more toned.
Answered above. And fighting pokemon don't just fight, they actually train.
Actually, statistically based, Lucario does have very good movement speed. However, that's not the point.
Look at Lucario's legs. They're amazingly heavily musculed relative to the rest of his body. That alone tells us that he's capable of more movement speed.
That's only a tiny portion of "real battlefields". Granted, certain enviroments would advantage Diddy more, but raw leaping ability would allow Lucario to compensate. Furthermore, he's probably not as good at climber as Diddy, but he's definately got the construction for it.
That, and the tactical know-how.
And based on his construction, Lucario is several times as strong as an average human as well, as would anything with his attack stat would be.
Humans=weak reletive to the pokemon world.
Angry simians, at least more then anything else. How often do you see pokemon fighting against robbers with knives? Furthermore, pokemon has no shortage of angry simians.
Even if it was made for practitioners of the same style, that only matters with grappling. Striking, it doesn't.
In a realistic situation, Lucario is not limited to the game's limited interpretation of his abilities. So, he can donkey kick Diddy to death. With his superior range due to his long powerful legs, grappling probably won't come into play almost at all.
If it does, HELLO LARGE PROTRUDING SPIKES! The on on the chest is especially well place. He can improvise.
Fighting type>steel is not realistic, what being steel type tells us in realistic terms is that the creature has strong natural armor with some metallic properties.
The anime is not realistic in that regard, nor is the anime. Either that or they simply didn't show a tenth of his ability.
Based on the only REALISTIC MEASURE (aka, his body's construction), he's fast and capable of very large leaps.
That doesn't account for his general properties. It would have to cover the body to merit being "steel type".
"Accurate" means "canon". We're not talking about Canon.
We have the height and weight posted in the thread earlier. Lucario has a longer leaner construction (except the legs, in which Lucario easily outclasses diddy).
Not really...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
A kick to the face will PULP Diddy's face. Period. Again, look at his leg construction.
Also, Lucario is larger then diddy.
Don't look at the arms, look at the legs.
Grappling isn't really based on strength, unless the differences are extreme. Plus, if lucario gets him in a leg-hold, Diddy is crushed.
Also, Steel spikes do not explain steel typing, it would have to be his entire body.
Furthermore, they're issues with Diddy winning a grapping fight. They're both small and heavy (though diddy is more extreme), so it should be within the tolerances of skill>strenght.
Furthermore, diddy has few safe areas to grapple Lucario with, due to those pesky spikes. The chest one is especially dangerous, because it means the only safe position to grapple against Lucario's front is in Lucario's guard, with Lucario's extremely powerful legs, that position royally sucks for Diddy because Lucario can just choke him out from there, perhaps even crush him. Grappling his side or back works, but they're much harder to get, and if he's forced to the front, Diddy's dead.
Overall, Lucario's got the grappling advantage.
Now
vs. This is Roy's advantage, if for no other reason, for better overall physical conditioning and more years of expirience.
Keep in mind that young link can't use (not doesn't have, can't use, in other words, doesn't have the strength required) the bow. He has the boomerang, but in real life, unless it's bladed, it's not a threat. This is a melee fight, and Roy simply has too much of an edge in expirience.
chaoslink20
Smash Cadet
I think you should choose whether it's Young Link or Toon Link. Toon link has a better shield and sword than Young Link. He's also better at using a sword than young link. (Remember his techniques from LOZ: WW?) I'm not really trying to start an argument here, I'm just suggesting that they are two different characters. You can keep them the same if you want, but like i said, I'm only suggesting.
Now, for the battle...Considering Toon Link (yes I'm going to use him as the example, if you don't mind) has a shield, it might SLIGHTLY be harder for Roy to attack him, sure he's a kid, but he's still strong. Otherwise, he wouldn't have managed to beat Ganon, who is actually around 3x the height of Toon Link's. (He's also heavier too, which would've made him stronger) But he also has another disadvantage against Roy, he can't run fast. Yes he can run fast in brawl, but someone in the real world, who has the legs of which are the same size as his will obviously have a hard time running. He would just trip >.>
Although I may be a LOZ fan, I can't say Toon Link could win or lose. Same goes for Roy. If Toon Link manages to shoot Roy with an arrow, then the advantage would go to Toon Link. However, if Toon Link manages to "accidentally" misses, then it is going to make his battle tougher. For now, I am going to go with Toon Link. Although, I need to know what the situation in the battle would be for a start, so it would make it easier to decide which one of them would win.
Now, for the battle...Considering Toon Link (yes I'm going to use him as the example, if you don't mind) has a shield, it might SLIGHTLY be harder for Roy to attack him, sure he's a kid, but he's still strong. Otherwise, he wouldn't have managed to beat Ganon, who is actually around 3x the height of Toon Link's. (He's also heavier too, which would've made him stronger) But he also has another disadvantage against Roy, he can't run fast. Yes he can run fast in brawl, but someone in the real world, who has the legs of which are the same size as his will obviously have a hard time running. He would just trip >.>
Although I may be a LOZ fan, I can't say Toon Link could win or lose. Same goes for Roy. If Toon Link manages to shoot Roy with an arrow, then the advantage would go to Toon Link. However, if Toon Link manages to "accidentally" misses, then it is going to make his battle tougher. For now, I am going to go with Toon Link. Although, I need to know what the situation in the battle would be for a start, so it would make it easier to decide which one of them would win.
That is not true. Now, it is true that Roy is older, and therefore more mature physically. However, I disagree with Lin k not being ABLE to use a bow. Joe would not have allowed Link a bow if he couldn't use it; its safe to say that Link can not only use a bow, but he can use a bow effectively. Its not entirely a close combat sort of fight, so whatever advantages Roy may have there certainly do not decide the match.Now
This is Roy's advantage, if for no other reason, for better overall physical conditioning and more years of expirience.
Keep in mind that young link can't use (not doesn't have, can't use, in other words, doesn't have the strength required) the bow. He has the boomerang, but in real life, unless it's bladed, it's not a threat. This is a melee fight, and Roy simply has too much of an edge in expirience.
I'm actually picturing Young Link right now, but whatevs... Now then, I feel that people are overlooking exactly how skillful Link is with a bow. It depends on how far away they begin from each other, but Link could probably shoot around five or six or more before Roy reaches him. Arrows also travel fast and Link is an accomplished archer, able to aim very precisely.
Now, assuming that Roy reaches Link, the battle isn't over. The height difference will put Roy at a bit of a disadvantage in that Link can swing lower. We also note that Link has a shield, and similar to the Marth/Link matchup, Young Link has better defense. Now, Roy is definetly stronger - I concede that point. But Link is very acrobatic. He is skilled at rolling around and distancing himself from Roy. His dodges prove to be mindgames of their own.
I'm just saying that Link's not as handicapped at close combat as we are saying. He has disadvantages against Roy, but he has points for him.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
How so?
Look in the game, Toon Link is unable to use a bow. Using a good bow requires a good amount of armstrength, and the fairy bow definitely is large enough enough to be difficult for a kid to handle.
Furthermore, look at the actual bow, that's a Composite bow. Young Link simply will not have the arm strength to draw it.
If he's gonna use a bow at all (which is rather ridiculous), we'd have to pull one out of our collective ***es for him to use, and it'd be a shortbow, and the strategic value of a shortbow in this confrontation would be negligible anyway.
If we're dealing with a battle between Master class fighters, take Link vs. Roy, or Toon Link (who is most equivalent to regular link in terms of age, the style of artwork just makes him seem younger).
His acrobatics ability is an advantage, granted. However Roy (like any medieval lord) would be combat trained from birth, and in terms of swing speed, movement speed, and raw strength, Roy easily beats young link.
The shield helps, but what shield can he use...
Oh yea, it's a wooden shield! Metal shields are too heavy for him! Realistically he could only carry a buckler anyway.
But with the wooden shield... Roy has at least a hand and a half sword, he'd break through Young Link's shield with ease. Granted, he could deflect with it, but given Roy's greater expirience, he needed the ability to outright block to be able to compete in terms of defense.
Yes... acrobatics.I'm just saying that Link's not as handicapped at close combat as we are saying. He has disadvantages against Roy, but he has points for him.
daisho
Smash Lord
T/Y link has a bow. That is the main advantage he has going for him. But, Arrows are not lethal everytime. It is fair enough to say that Roy can take a couple of arrows. Also, unless they start really far away Roy can close the distance in the time that T/Y link can get off just 1 to 2 shots. Unless of course he is hit in the leg.
So T/Y link's bow will get him alot of kills, but it won't always win him the match.
At close range T/Y link really has little chance of winning. Roy merely has to tire the small fellow out and then win. Sheild does not make much of a difference if it is a merely defensive weapon, T/Y link will still have to use alot of effort to parry roy's strikes and he will tire much faster than Roy.
So long range the edge goes to T/Y link but short range it goes to Roy.
So T/Y link's bow will get him alot of kills, but it won't always win him the match.
At close range T/Y link really has little chance of winning. Roy merely has to tire the small fellow out and then win. Sheild does not make much of a difference if it is a merely defensive weapon, T/Y link will still have to use alot of effort to parry roy's strikes and he will tire much faster than Roy.
So long range the edge goes to T/Y link but short range it goes to Roy.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
What Bow?
I feel like everyone's saying that just because they randomly decided to give him a bow in smash.
I also should note that the smash version again is a composite bow, which Young Link realistically would be physically incapable of using.
Which reminds me, Hero's Bow is again, a composite bow, him drawing it in Majora's mask is a physical impossibility.
You could have atleast made the other two quotes in my traditional colour of writing.Now, concerning the bow, it would depend on what Joe says. Young Link's ability to use a bow has been kept all throughout the series. Realistically, Link may not be strong enough to use a bow. He's young and not exactly overly muscled, so you may have a point there. The thing is that Joe is allowing for Link to bring his bow; now I suppose Joe didn't specifically state that he would be using it, and apparently, Link isn't strong enough to do so. But I doubt that he would be allowed to bring a bow if he couldn't use it. Yes, realistically, he couldn't use the bow, I suppose, but their have been small exceptions to the rule to give the matches taste or to even them up. This is, i believe, one of those exceptions.
Whatever you make of that argument, I move on to what would happen if Roy safely approached Link. Now, Roy has many advantages here, you gave some just now. YOUNG Link has a wooden shield, yes, but TOON link has a metal shield. Owing to the fact that we are combining these characters, I would propose that the shields be "forged" to where it is some material stronger than wood but not quite as tough as metal. It wouldn't neccesarily be too heavy for him to use and it wouldn't break incredibly easily.
Roy has an experience advantage, as well as strength. Yes, he was probably trained by Eliwood from Day One (I think; I haven't played his game) and he developed a very strong skill for swordmanship. Roy has taken out armies (with help), while Link has defeated a less impressive number of monsters. Roy is older as well, and has a height and weight advantage over Link. Link, however, can use his smaller build to his advantage, if only slightly. His shield combined with sword could possibly open options for a low-blow on Roy. A good kick from Roy could really hurt Link, but Link's experienced enough to avoid that and take advantage of the size difference.
Link is constantly moving and spends alot of time rolling around. Distancing himself from Roy isn't a good option; I was mistaken. However, Link can roll around or BEHIND Roy. His size also gives him another small edge here, as his sword "has a tendency" to counter-attack from a roll very quickly. he doesn't have to hit him very high either. Roy's sword only needs one hit to kill, as it is a strong sword, but Link can strike Roy's knees or shins. One blow is all it takes for Roy to completely open himself for the finishing blow, as obviously, his legs are his balance.
Link takes alot of chances here and there, and has to use alot of fancy footwork to manuever around Roy. I'm not saying that Link has it easy here; Roy has it easier, much more than Link. But I do say that Link is certainly not doomed in a melee match. And again, IF he is able to use a bow, then it may never come down to any of this.
daisho
Smash Lord
Dude link has a bow. Its just link. He has a bow.
The problem is whether or not he can use it.
daisho
Smash Lord
He has a smaller bow wtvr... he can use a bow.
While Roy is more experience with the sword, remember that Toon Link is known to constantly dodge-attack other swordwielding enemies. Also, consider the fact that Y/T Link has bombs. Now, since they must be heavy, he would probably only carry one or two at a time. He could use them as a distraction to Roy, leaving him open for an attack at the knees, which would then lead to his death. If all else fails and Roy manages to get to him, Y/T Link could dodge-roll behind Roy, grab him by the neck, and kamikaze himself with a bomb. Then again, this would take a good amount of time to do, and Roy may just have enough time to get him off.
It is a close match, and I have never played Fire Emblem so I can not really say much about Roy, other that the swordsmanship skills I've seen him use so far, which are better than Y/T Link.
It is a close match, and I have never played Fire Emblem
so I can not really say much about Roy, other that the swordsmanship skills I've seen him use so far, which are better than Y/T Link.
daisho
Smash Lord
How could a bomb be useful? It probably has like a 10 second fuse. In that time it would be useless because T/Y link would probably stun himself more than roy (Depending on armor, bombs probably would not kill).
Well, depending on whether or not Y/T Link knew about the fight that was about to happen, he could make the fuse shorter so as to make them useful against a fast opponent. An you're right, bombs would probably not kill if the armor blocks the blast, but the damage caused to either of them would be pretty big (arms and legs do not have armor on it, save for Y/T Link's shield, which would still only protect one arm).
daisho
Smash Lord
Didn't see this post until just now.
How short do you think T/Y link is? Is he like 3 ft tall? His hands are at perfect striking distance for Roy's legs?
If not then Roy would obviously just play a defensive game until T/Y link just runs out of energy. Since T/Y link wouldn't want to leave himself open for death he wouldn't be able to take too many chances either. And the battle would continue for a while until T/Y link gets tired. Then Roy takes advantage.
For the rolling part... How could rolling ever possibly be helpful? It leaves you in a completely vulnerable position without being able to use your weapons. Also, what would it accomplish? Stand up right now. Turn around as fast as you can. That is how long it would take Roy to react by someone rolling being him.
Roy as an experienced swordsman would not let T/Y link get a hit on his legs. And since he is basically just defending then it shouldn't be too hard.
Taking chances in a swordfight with an experienced opponent gets you killed.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Planned to, will fix it later.
I don't have a disagreement with Link owning a bow, the problem is... composite bows are very difficult to draw, at all. A normal bow I'd understand, he wouldn't be able to draw it the entire way, but he could partially draw it. A significant decrease in range and power, yea. But a composite bow, no way, because so much of the difficulty (therefore the extra force) is in the initial draw, that's why they work.
Basically their shape is to make the initial draw much more difficult to get more power overall.
Basically, a composite bow is difficult for an in-shape adult to draw. For that reason it's primary use was in horse-combat because a long-bow was better on foot, for exactly this reason, if you're not strong enough to fully draw it, you could still use it. With composite bows, you can't.
I cannot agree with disregarding the premise of the thread for "flavor".
I must disagree with combining toon Link and young Link. Toon Link is basically adult Link, except shorter. Young Link is Link as a young kid.
It's definitely conceivable for Toon Link to have a metal shield and a composite bow, but not Young Link, they need to be kept separate since the ability difference is staggering.
If anything, Link and Toon Link could be treated as one since they're the most similar in abilities, but even then, I would suggest not.
I would agree with this, Young Link shouldn't bother distance, I guess he could use his slingshot to harass Roy at a distance, but he want's ultra-close range to jam up Roy's attacks, and definitely take advantage of his acrobatic ability. His parcour skills are also better so he CAN take advantage of the terrain better if it's rough.
But rolling BEHIND him isn't a good idea, it'll take too long. Rolling to his side and attempting to slash would be a good idea though. Probably better off with attempting to cover it with something.
Still, Roy's pure sword-fighting superiority, as well as better speed (movement and attack) should carry the day the vast majority of the time.
Oh, and Roy could and probably will attack Ylink's knees and shins too, just not from close range.
A smaller bow wouldn't make the difference, it's the KIND of bow that's a problem. He can't actually draw a composite bow, it's unrealistic.
And where would he get that bow anyway? A random wooden short-bow he could definitely draw, but Young Link never actually has access to it.
If we can just give people random weapons that they don't actually canonically have access to, I suggest that we give roy a machine gun and call it a day.
No, it's young Link, they have very different physical characteristics and very different abilities.
He may have a bow, but ability to use it? No way.
Again, the issue is that they have different physiques, and therefore different abilities. Ocarina of Time was nice in showing this in-game by having Adult Link and Young Link, unable to use many of each other's weapons, even though their inventory was the same.
Roy can do that as well. The thing is, Roy can do it better, because sword fighting is very reliant on spacing, especially Roy's, because his core expirience is fencing.
Take a look at his initial weapon, and favored weapon before he gets the sealed sword is a rapier, in the fencing tradition. Since Eliwood has a similar style, that places him as a fencer stylistically.
That means that, his style is gonna be based on spacing, slight dodges, parries, calculated advances and retreats and the like, and this will definitely carry over to his use of the sealed sword (which's magical properties are locked, but it's physical properties aren't, aka it's a quality hand and a half sword (possibly a longsword)) because these concepts will carry over to anything, it's just only certain styles truly emphasis them.
Young Link has some of these abilities (you'll notice it in his movement style when you play OOT) but his true advantage is with his acrobatics, which are tiring in the long term, so avoiding blows from Roy in a long confrontation will eventually result in him getting fatigued and losing.
Bombs Young Link is physically capable of using, though, killing himself just makes him lose too, also the blast radius isn't large. Again, Since YL already has issues with spacing, the odds of him actually grabbing Roy are low.
Not at all.
Rolls are actually pretty fast and easy to disguise if you do them right.
Also, after the hand that you let collapse when you roll, if you have a weapon in it, you can side-swipe with it will you're coming up.
Regardless, the major issue is spacing. It doesn't matter if Young Link can hit him in the shins if he can't get close enough to hit him, and Roy can definitely hit low to attack Young Link, if properly spaced. The Kokiri sword especially causes a problem, it's a shortsword, and I mean SHORT. If he manages to keep Young Link out of his sweet spot, Roy doesn't even have to defend against Young Link, because he has nothing to attack Roy with.
Crazy_mofo213
Smash Lord
I agree with the Young Link not being able to use a bow. He's not strong enough in the first place. Roy would win hands down due to his superior fighting abilities.
Sieguest
Smash Master
I'm going to have to agree with adumbrodeus-To fit young link's physical prowess we'd be dealing with a short-bow...and that won't help much as roy will practically be semi close enough to make a move...
When Roy does get in close...he can simply outrange,and outpower TL- Roy has had plenty of experience in swordsmanship and with those advantages...dealing with T/Y L wouldn't be too hard...even with YL's Wooden Shield...
When Roy does get in close...he can simply outrange,and outpower TL- Roy has had plenty of experience in swordsmanship and with those advantages...dealing with T/Y L wouldn't be too hard...even with YL's Wooden Shield...