Tales of Symphonia Mafia | Game Over - Town Wins Yayuhzz

[Chaco]

Outing town roles is anti-town, learn it, love it, accept it. It's the ways of forum mafia.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why do you keep making statements with no explanation what-so-ever?

Solving the game is pro-town. Innocents begin the game with numbers but less information about the game. Witches begin the game with more information (because they can behave aggregately when needed) but a disadvantage in numbers. If the game reaches a solved state, that's in the advantage of Innocent; Innocent has more to gain than Witches.

If Innocents knew exactly what roles are in the game Day 1, they'd win in most rolesets. Witches obviously hate this.

On top of all of this (which is a digression from Zac being guilty), how is speculation equivalent to outing roles? How on earth is wondering publicly if there is a third faction anti-town?

I'm done with meta-discussion. I'm just going to continue to solve the game and win.

 

[Chaco]

Marshy wanna handle this? I think it's pretty black and white personally.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Thinkaman, never quote someone's post and change what they say in it. Ever.

 

[X1-12]

Its probably worth mentioning that I wont be on for a large part of tomorrow between 1 and 10pm GMT (8-5 EST I believe) I only mention as it seems this day may end tomorrow

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Also yeah, Zac original said that his role may not have been very helpful. Assuming he's talking about his role, and not the abilities of the characters in the game. And then he claimed Vanilla Townie. Looking back, at his wording, he could have been talking about his character's role, and not his role specifically. So I'm not so sure anymore.

 

[Swiss]

Thinkaman - We DO NOT want to out our power roles. Our Doc would be killed N1 and our Cop/a power role N2

What you suggest would win the game for scum.



@ BY - why aren't you now voting Dr Riddler in light of his obv scum slip?

i didn't know there cud be issues with qt links. good thing mine is working properly

Zac is L-2

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I'll wait for Zac to respond and hear his reasoning at least. I don't believe his Vanilla Townie claim.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Hmm... actually, I'm interested in what Zac has to say. I'm going to put him at L_1 in 10 minutes. No one hammer or else your scum.

 

[Swiss]

Oh.

Zac - Please make a full claim now.

 

[Tandora]

Or you could spend 15 seconds to go look at his past games and see for yourself?

1) I don't know what games Gheb has ran and I have no interest in finding out.
2) Personally, I don't see any reason to spend time and energy looking at other games. I get bogged down keeping up with one game at a time w/o researching past games.
3) I've been told time and time again that meta is the worst evidence one can use for a game. I have made the mistake of using meta and every time I did, it bit me in the butt.

What. How does this even begin to make sense?

Assume scum has 2-3 members. If just one of those members has played ToS or cares enough to wiki it (which I think scum would be more likely to do than town if they have a fake claim) the entire scum faction gains most of the benefit; both scum night votes and to a limited extent scum town votes are going to made with the benefit of information. The same goes for any non-town multiple-person faction.

On the other hand, this isn't true for town at all; everyone is an island. The fact that I have played ToS a few times doesn't help other town members at all since they have no reason to follow my lead and benefit from whatever advantages flavor may or may not supply.

By putting it out there for everyone, now the town is fully informed and can make educated decisions with their own logic. Since scum was highly likely to already be fully informed, how is this bad?

I agree with the every town is an island. I used to think the same way you did when I started forum mafia. As other players have said, outing town PR gives scum an edge on crippling town by knowing who to NK.

Although scum can research ToS, so can town. If a player cares enough to look at the roles, then they'll do the work on their own. If they don't care, they will either not read your post or just skim it. So, end result is null. (And I realize it's time to go past flavor, I just wanted to address your questions to me instead of seeming to ignore them.)

I hope this isn't addressed to me; that's like saying "don't stick a fork in electrical sockets". Why would any Innocent ever do this or think it's a good idea?

It isn't specifically for you. It's just an unfortunate trend I've seen time and time again. Innocents who do it are frustrated with the game or poor players who decide to rage quit. =(

Also I don't like inactivity (sorry about that past 2~3 days, I was away taking holidays), but now I'll get more active. Inactives need pressure and I haven't heard of Tandora other than a "I am here sorry guys" and a prod lol

vote: Tandora

1, 2 posts in the whole game?? I guess that's the most inactive behavior I've seen in all of my mafia games (only 4 with this one...but still). I don't want to get him lynched (yet) but I don't like people who doesn't give me any reads. Tandora who do you think is scum? Who do you think is town? What do you think about the mass claim idea and the flavor+possible roles that Thinkaman put?

The sad part is I agree with prodding inactives. I would be pushing for inactives if it wasn't hypocritical. Trying to catch up on 6 pages of 40 posts each and not parroting, talking about topics that have been resolved, and just trying to keep track of all the comments is a little mind boggling.

Also, Swiss' comment about "don't post such drivel" irritated me. I try not to post when I'm pissed.

As I've mentioned before, I won't list who I think is town and why, but I can discuss thoughts on bandwagons a little.

Swiss - Most of my scum feelings on him are because he's being rude. I could see this as a tactic by scum to get people to get off their wagon.

Zac - His posts have been pretty sparse in content. Posting for posting sake is as scummy as lurking. I would have voted for him, except he was at L-2 when I ISO him and didn't want to put him at L-1.

but zac skims everything. i think he mayve seen "vanilla townie" and literally not understand what that meant

This post didn't help my opinion of zac. Scum or dumb right there. Also, how do you not know what vanilla townie mean?

As an side note: I'm a girl. A few people have reference me as "him" and I wanted to clarify that.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Oh, lol, let the time get to me.

vote Zac

 

[#HBC | marshy]

unvo te

 

[Swiss]

Also, Swiss' comment about "don't post such drivel" irritated me. I try not to post when I'm pissed.

I regularly post when both drunk and angry. Lol.

Illogical posts irritate me beyond belief. I know I do it. but that's scumhunting - when someone does it to me I get mad pissed with them. I'm such a charming man.

And that post was pure BS.

Swiss - Most of my scum feelings on him are because he's being rude. I could see this as a tactic by scum to get people to get off their wagon.

How does being rude get people off the wagon? Being nice does that from my experience.

WIFOM WIFOM Swiss is scum doing the opposite ec etc I know. But I do think you have that the wrong way round.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman, never quote someone's post and change what they say in it. Ever.

Uh, I denoted it as my interpretation and even put it adjacent to the original quotes. I won't use quote BBC code blocks again if it upsets you that much, but my post format really wasn't a big deal at all. I don't think you are trying to take attention away from the contents (since you addressed Zac first) though, so we're all good.

I resisted the temptation to add "please" into your quote.

Also yeah, Zac original said that his role may not have been very helpful. Assuming he's talking about his role, and not the abilities of the characters in the game. And then he claimed Vanilla Townie. Looking back, at his wording, he could have been talking about his character's role, and not his role specifically. So I'm not so sure anymore.

I'm pretty skeptical of this. I doubt he paid that little attention.

Thinkaman - We DO NOT want to out our power roles. Our Doc would be killed N1 and our Cop/a power role N2

What you suggest would win the game for scum.

Who said anything about a partial role claim? I myself posted previous that any sort of partial roleclaim is pro-scum. (i.e. if two vanilla townies roleclaim, odds of scum hitting power roles are that much higher)

What was being discussed was what roles are in the game, not claims.

1) I don't know what games Gheb has ran and I have no interest in finding out.
2) Personally, I don't see any reason to spend time and energy looking at other games. I get bogged down keeping up with one game at a time w/o researching past games.
3) I've been told time and time again that meta is the worst evidence one can use for a game. I have made the mistake of using meta and every time I did, it bit me in the butt.

The biggest misconception in forum mafia is that it's primarily in mafia's interest to solve the game. This is incorrect just by looking at the numbers; the only reason mafia would be interested in solving the game is to do so before the town and then manipulate the town's perceptions of the game.

It's like a fighting game where town is playing as a much higher-tier character, but doesn't know any of his moves. Mafia is playing a lower-tier character, but has some idea of what his moves do. Mafia has to win before town figures out his superior character.

Either way, once it's done they will never play again because Mortal Kombat sucks, but that's another story. Meta-discussion over.

I agree with the every town is an island. I used to think the same way you did when I started forum mafia. As other players have said, outing town PR gives scum an edge on crippling town by knowing who to NK.

Seriously, no one said anything about a partial role-claim; no one wants to out town power roles for no reason, that would make no sense at all.

Although scum can research ToS, so can town. If a player cares enough to look at the roles, then they'll do the work on their own. If they don't care, they will either not read your post or just skim it. So, end result is null. (And I realize it's time to go past flavor, I just wanted to address your questions to me instead of seeming to ignore them.)

Actually, due to their team nature and assigned fake claims, scum have more incentive to go research the flavor on their own if they haven't played it. Anyway, dead topic is dead.

It isn't specifically for you. It's just an unfortunate trend I've seen time and time again. Innocents who do it are frustrated with the game or poor players who decide to rage quit. =(

Rage quitting is the opposite of playing to win.

Anyway, since my last post I realized that by posting only in response to people I disagree with my posts are ending up really negative. (Including this one.) I'm gonna try to be more active, especially since some people I'm disagreeing with about meta I agree with concerning this instance and that discrepancy is probably only advantageous to scum.

 

[UTDZac]

I've been out most of the day. I just caught up on today's posts. I don't have time to post much right now but I will say this:


I purposely worded both of those responses how they appeared, if I had scum intentions, I would have definitely been more careful about what I said. I'm not trying to buff, that would be a stupid act to pull this early

 

[#HBC | marshy]

I purposely worded both of those responses how they appeared

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, like it's not twisting the words all that much to say the first referred to a vanilla townie... but it's not the natural way it reads and I don't see what your "purposeful" intention of writing it that way could be.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

What are you talking about, Zac? <_<
If you are Vanilla Townie, why the talk about your role they way you did? And stop with the wifom.

@Thinkaman: Are you assuming nobody would be stupid enough to make a simple scum slip? Really? How much do you know about Zac that would bring you to that conclusion about him? Why would you assume something like that, and why would us pressuring him for it make you suspicious?

Thinkaman, who's scum? Who are your suspicions?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Wow, totally not what I was expecting to hear. Zac, you TOTALLY avoided the question at hand and just responded with a huge amount of WIFOM.

Actually, OS used this picture in MXC mafia, and I think it'll be rather fitting now to describe my reaction to your latest post:

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Um, everyone can ignore the embarrassing formatting error please. >.<

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Two other things I forgot about:

Sword, don't you think it'd be more relateable to Zac if you lynched Swiss first? The way you line up point 2 would be better determined from his lynch first. Just sayin'.

Post more later.

No, not really. I'm not to to sound with setting up lynches in a row like that. Kinda sketchy for you to suggest this. If we do what you say, assuming the worst, that's two mislynches. Not good.

Also, I feel that Zac's lynch will lead to a good amount more infomation to work with (same with Swiss).

Sorry, the last paragraph of my post had formatting typos. I'll make sure to preview in the future, I'm used to editting these sort of things.



What? Other people asked for a flavor summary. I wrote it, which I put in a collapsed box. Since then, I've only made one post about flavor, in response to Rajam. Where are you getting this?

I did spend a lot of early posts arguing in favor of a mass roleclaim; I'm still completely in favor of it, no one else wants to do it, fine, whatever. But saying that I've only been talking about flavor (one-and-a-half posts total) over everyone else's protests? Trying to paint me as "the flavor guy"? That's just plain incorrect. It's like you are looking for a place where you can incite hysteria.

It just kinda seems like to me that you've been more focused on flavor this entire Day than scum hunting. I mean, that flavor summary for example seemed like a big time waster. Just think of what where all the time could of went into, like scum hunting! That final post responding to Rajam is kinda what really made me realize this, even if that post was a response.

Besides, I angry at both you and Rajam for the flavor talk.

Now, scum hunt, and when we get some flips THEN maybe, maybe we can make some connections with flavor in the later part of the game. However, flavor talk now is pointless and weren't lead anywhere.

 

[Vult Redux]

I'm posting to let y'all know I have internet access issues!

I really really want to keep playing though. I'll probably have time to catch up tomorrow, hopefully. Don't replace me just yet.

 

[Tandora]

I've been out most of the day. I just caught up on today's posts. I don't have time to post much right now but I will say this:


I purposely worded both of those responses how they appeared, if I had scum intentions, I would have definitely been more careful about what I said. I'm not trying to buff, that would be a stupid act to pull this early

Being intentionally confusing hurts town. As previously stated, town players are essentially islands trying to find each other.

@ Marshy

Why did you leave the wagon?

 

[UTDZac]

What exactly i wifom?

Sorry for sounding so confusing. I thought the idea was to try and stay hidden (or at least not give everything away) to prevent scum from learning too much info. Mafia already know more than town and giving them even more info isn't good.

If I missed any questions I'm sorry. Ask them and I'll answer directly. I'll full claim too if you really want, it doesn't bother me. But please don't waste your Day 1 lynch on me.

 

[Thinkaman]

@Thinkaman: Are you assuming nobody would be stupid enough to make a simple scum slip? Really? How much do you know about Zac that would bring you to that conclusion about him? Why would you assume something like that, and why would us pressuring him for it make you suspicious?

I don't understand what you are saying or what I'm supposedly assuming. My stance is that he was stupid enough to make a simple scum slip and I want us to pressure him. That's why I brought it up in the first place.

Don't we agree completely here?

Thinkaman, who's scum? Who are your suspicions?

I've been clearly against Swiss this entire time due to the way he behaved initially, but now I'm prioritizing Zac due to his slip. I don't really have strong inclinations beyond that; I have a couple people I feel safe about though.

I'm not to to sound with setting up lynches in a row like that. Kinda sketchy for you to suggest this. If we do what you say, assuming the worst, that's two mislynches. Not good.

Planning lynches out far is pro-witch, even if Swiss/Zac is still going to be the most suspicious party after the other dies. It's best to for the town to focus on the current day and offer little group information about the future.

It just kinda seems like to me that you've been more focused on flavor this entire Day than scum hunting. I mean, that flavor summary for example seemed like a big time waster. Just think of what where all the time could of went into, like scum hunting! That final post responding to Rajam is kinda what really made me realize this, even if that post was a response.

Now, scum hunt, and when we get some flips THEN maybe, maybe we can make some connections with flavor in the later part of the game. However, flavor talk now is pointless and weren't lead anywhere.

You've got to be kidding me. Again, I refuse to be painted as "the flavor guy" just because I posted a summary that other players requested. Time waster? I guess my time could have been spent instead trying to catch major scum slips.

Oh, wait, I did that. Don't lecture me on productivity when I'm the one catching stuff.

 

[Chaco]

Swords, I never stated two line up two lynches. That's just your interpretation, what you stated previously based on the two of them makes more sense in regards to information by lynching Swiss. Rather than lynching Zac.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Oh wait, I'm sorry, I forgot to address the "other players requested it" part.

Okay, simply to say, it's true some players were requesting it, but I also remember a lot of players requesting that you didn't do it. Gotta reread to see how many were for it and how many were against it.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

ninja'd

@Taco: I'm not quite getting you here. I think Zac is scummy because, as I see it, he jumped on the first bandwagon he could find. The fact that his reasoning is so poor and inconsistent backs this up to me. How does lynching Swiss factor in to this at all?

Zac has done scummy stuff, so I want Zac lynched for that. Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but I'm not quite seeing what you're getting at.

 

[Chaco]

I thought you posted point 1 in regards to him jumping off of Swiss's wagon as a connection. Which is why I said lynching Swiss first would be more beneficial as the leave of the wagon referred to him. They're both scummy, I think Zac to a lesser extent, but still.

 

[Dr. Riddler]

When you mentioned it, it was RVS. RVS continues until someone says something... well, stupid. And people jump on them. Based on reactions, who jumps on it, who's against it, and all that jazz, is what starts what we know as scum hunting. And when people started pressuring you, you got super defensive, tried to cover your tracks, and made Chaco and others out to be scum for scum hunting you.

So yeah. You mentioning Quick Topics? Made me feel a bit iffy about it. You talking about having your partners NK someone? Obviously a joke, I don't care. Your reactions to common, basic pressure? Vote: Swiss

i hope riddle doesn't mind
vote: hilt

chainsaw defense is a nulltell imo. except when it happens mutually. Don't really find swiss all that scummy to me. As of pg 5, ppl im worried about are hilt, BY, and zac

 

[Dr. Riddler]

Why are y'all pushing "Swords Chainsaw Defense" as a reason to lynch Swiss?

The only time Chainsaw Defense can ever be analyzed seriously is AFTER the defendee's flip. And the only person it would ever incriminate at all is Swords, giving him scum points ONLY IF we know Swiss isn't Town.

Doesn't make sense.

ye p

 

[Dr. Riddler]

Whoa whoa whoa, wait Zac. I thought you said you originally voted for Swiss because you thought his bandwagon was a joke, and that you were just jumping on it for the lolz, but you backed off when you saw it wasn't a joke. What's with the change in the story all of the sudden?

lol

vote: zac

 

[Dr. Riddler]

so i stop multiposting

i dont get it either

fos dancer

why do you think swiss is scummy?

Got some flank? From whom? I had my vote on Swiss because he acted like a child when the slightest bit of pressure was put on him. It was an extremely scummy reaction. I still don't like his play. But I don't want him lynched enough to keep a vote put on him. And what's all this talk of a "bandwagon unvote"? I was the only person that had a vote on Swiss that unvoted. If you're going to accuse me of something, accuse me directly.

Anyways. I'm a bit wary of Blue Yoshi. Unlike the others that jumped on the Swiss Wagon, he joined in solely because of Swiss' Night Kill "threat", which was an extremely easy action to make. Basically just saw an opportunity for a wagon and jumped on it. Did you actually believe it was a scum slip BY? Or did you just say that so you had a reason to hop aboard?

Vote: Blue Yoshi

I also don't like Zac's contradiction he made recently, as well as his inactivity. But that isn't enough for me to jump on his wagon.

Why is it not enough for you to vote zac on? Also i sense a contradiction

Are people not noticing what Thinka just said about Zac? That's... kind of a huge, huge scum slip. And I'm completely fine voting/hammer Zac if he's chosen as the lynch for the day. I won't hammer too early, though.

Gonna do a reread on Rajam when I have the chance. Also, just to note, I have a tournament tomorrow that I'm going to be all day long, and I'll probably be worn out from it for at least part of Sunday, so I'll post when I can. I'll be here for the rest of the day, though.

What would you like to know?

I've been busy recently, especially on the first few days when this game started. I've skimmed over mosts posts vs reading them in depth... there were just too many.

Like I said before, there was no good reason in the first place for me to jump on Swiss's wagon, that is why I unvoted. I've been read more recent posts in greater detail, looking for someone suspicious to vote on. There's no-one currently that I think is scum. I'll come up some scumhunt questions soon.

If you want to make better use of Day 1 lynch, don't aim at me. I'm vanilla town. I didn't see my name on Thinkaman's list either.

Why did you claim?
noobish reasoning for making a slip, i'm assuming yur new?

Time Zone: CST

Question for Swiss, out of all the people that have voted you, which do you feel plays most like scum?

What was your purpose in asking this? How will the response help you?

riddler whenll your macman half post? what does macman think about zacs 241 in particular?

request votecount

^^^

Ok, quite clearly, that was not my only reason for voting Swiss. As everyone who plays against me knows, I keep the vote on myself for most of the first day... but Swiss seemed very scummy, and his "I'll get my partners to NK you" was basically what crossed the line. Regular BY play, had no one seemed very scummy at this point, would have been to keep the vote on myself, even this far into the day.

I do still believe Swiss is the best lynch choice for today... and seeing as we're far from a lynch, there's no problem with me putting it on (I took it off since he was already at L-1 with my vote... and way too early in the day).

Unvote Vote: Swiss

srsly? a clear attempt at humour is what makes you think hes scum? oh and cuz he seems scummy. oh cool, completely legit reasoning

lol

vote: zac

i really hope i didnt hammer, that was very premature of me
unvote, vote: hilt

happy now riddle?

 

[UTDZac]

Why did you claim?
noobish reasoning for making a slip, i'm assuming yur new?

What was your purpose in asking this? How will the response help you?

I claimed because I was being pressured, people were jumping on my wagon extremely fast. I wasn't available 24/7 to come in a defend myself, I've been busy lately. Been on meds the doctor subscribed, makes me insanely sleepy. Take the claim however you want (truth or not), either way lynching me Day 1 is a waste of time.

I asked a question because I wanted to seem like a player that did more than just "Defends himself then doesn't help scum hunt." Swiss was getting a lot of attention, and given the lack of time on my hands, he seemed like a reasonable target to interrogate.

 

[Dr. Riddler]

aiight

the fact that you are open about trying to appear like useful town gives me good vibes. Usually trying to hard to appear town is scummy, but usually scum wud try to hide or deny the fact that they are trying hard, which... you aren't doing.

who(plural) do you find suspicious currently? If you had to pick someone to get lynched instead of you, who would it be?

 

[UTDZac]

No one at the moment.

This game just started, I'm still mapping playstyles to faces. I haven't seen any solid evidence (anything worth noting at least). We have what, 6 days left? I'll come up with a few suspicious people in 1-2 days, need to read through the posts after the RVS stage first.

 

[Dr. Riddler]

swiss, my bro says yur play is congruent to that of your play as scum in other games. would you agree?

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I have been really busy lately... more than I have been all summer (and the 64 boards know how busy I've been... haven't had a chance to mod there much...).

If I can't continue this game with decent activity, I'll have to switch out. Sorry guys.

Still have over 100 posts I haven't read... and if it looks like I won't be able to read them in the next day or so, I'll switch out. Sorry guys... hate to join and leave, but I've been so busy basically since June... and... yeah, just adding more to my plate... gotta reduce now... and mafia's one of the first things I'm reducing.

 

[Swiss]

swiss, my bro says yur play is congruent to that of your play as scum in other games. would you agree?

Lol, I don't actually have a town play style.

Look at my completed games. Been town in one (replaced in LOTR too but got NK'd within 24 hrs). As for how similar I played there and here - I haven't a clue

I'm ALWAYS scum.



Are people Ok with Zac claiming?


He's at L-1 - don't vote him.

There are other things I needed to reply to and look at but I cbf going back through with this screen, so I'll make another post soon frommy housemates laptop.