• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Tales of Symphonia Mafia | Game Over - Town Wins Yayuhzz

Status
Not open for further replies.

DtJ Hilt

Little Lizard
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
8,531
Location
Minnow Brook
yea i did.

what was the contradiction about his claim?
This:
I don't think my character is really helpful as of now. Hard to say, I don't know much about flavor abilities.
If you want to make better use of Day 1 lynch, don't aim at me. I'm vanilla town. I didn't see my name on Thinkaman's list either.
Unless I read it wrong, he said that his character isn't really helpful. He was either talking about his character as in his role pm and its ability, or his character as in the character in game and how "helpful" he thinks he/she is "as of now". And then he claims Vanilla Townie, saying that lynching him would be a waste. It's a contradiction that he avoided responding about until now, with his original response being that he "said both sentences the way he did for a reason". That's what I was talking about in my second piece about Zac.
I'm am up for either a Zac or Swiss lynch.
Why?
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,082
Location
Don't get mad - get Swiss
Zac basically said he didn't know how useful his character was as he didn't know about flavour abilities. Breadcrumbing/stating he has an ability.

He then claims and confirms he is Vanilla.

I cannot see a townie doing this.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Riddle, please don't talk about this game outside of the thread, even if it's only confirming Macman's status. Even though you caused no trouble you still broke a rule. Don't do this! If you do it again I will have to replace you.

:059:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
Where do you get off? Don’t even start spewing the word, “justice”! I hate that word!

---​

Swiss - 3: Chacotaco, Blue Yoshi, Dr. Riddler
UTDZac - 5: Vult Redux, X1-12, Swiss, Thinkaman, Sworddancer
Blue Yoshi - 1: Hilt
Tandora - 1: Rajam

Not Voting: Tandora, UTDZac, Marshigio

Takes 7 / 13 to lynch!

Contacting Nix2100 to replace Blue Yoshi


:059:
 

Tandora

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
0
Location
Kuz's bedroom.
Here are some examples of why I would vote for Zac:

1) Extremely inconsistent. Primary example is he cannot even make up his mind on why he voted Swiss.

I'm changing my vote to swiss cause he quad posted, clearly not thinking things through long enough...
Ok, I didn't think a joking reasoning like that would draw so much attention. The way I was reading a lot of the vote posts for swiss was "lol vote swiss." Whoops.
I originally votes for you Swiss cause I didn't like some of your responses to pressure. Then after you made some more posts, as did others, I decided to bck down. I don't have a good read on you yet to understand what you're going for. If others still want you lynched, they can but they don't need my help.

I don't think my character is really helpful as of now. Hard to say, I don't know much about flavor abilities.
2) Claims to be intentionally unclear. This is only a good play for scum.

I purposely worded both of those responses how they appeared, if I had scum intentions, I would have definitely been more careful about what I said. I'm not trying to buff, that would be a stupid act to pull this early
3) Appears to not to be able to even understand how vanilla works.
I, by myself, don't have any abilities (aka vanilla). However, I think it's possible that others may have abilities that interact with my character. That's why I was asking about flavor. I don't know anything about it myself, and it doesn't help that I haven't played the game in years. That's all I've got. So other than that, I'm merely vanilla town taking the fire Day 1 to help you guys find scum patterns or w/e.

As for Swiss:
1) He is intentionally antagonistic. I expect for someone to disagree with me or even insult my intelligence while playing mafia. But Swiss takes it to a new level by intentionally wanting to insult other players.
2) His posts are commonly one liners with fluff or "Bring it b*tches" attitude. Fluff posts are strong tools for scum. It allows them to look like they are contributing when they actually aren't.
3) He multiposts constantly. It shows that he is not thinking about what all he wants to say.
4) He gets into long debates with other players that don't really bring much information to the game which bogs the rest of us down with long novel length text to wade through.
5) He is the player who has received the most attention this day. To get a flip from him will give us the most information of who to look at next.
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
6,646
Location
Judgment Count: 856
The mafia playstyle that I've been working with recently is to become the target of people's attention and votes. Doing this helps me analyze who's potential scum easier than it normally would be. Not only does this help me but it helps you guys to; it gives you posts you can go back to later in the future and look through for contradictions.

Here's where we're at right now if you decide to lynch me (which is fine by me, this is a team game):

Case 1: I'm scum and you kill me. This is really good for town. You can go back through my posts in later Days and find more scum by looking through posts.
Case 2: I'm town and you kill me. Well given I'm vanilla this isn't a big loss. Now you have the same situation of old posts as evidence to go through and look at.
Case 3: I'm scum and you don't kill me. This is a shame that you let me slip by a lynch, however it's not that big of a deal. You still have all the old posts to look back to, and if later when we kill of scum you find some connection between them and me it will be much easier to find out if I'm scum or not.
Case 4: I'm town and you don't kill me. This, believe it or not, has the same effect of killing me. Regardless of if I'm killed now or later, mafia will try and kill someone else in hopes they hit a power role; mafia already knows who is town and who isn't. I don't see any reason why they should kill off a vanilla when they could go for a power role instead.

Hope that helps. If I survive to Day 2 I plan on doing much more direct scum hunting. It's not a big deal if I survive. However, if you do plan to kill me off then start making plans in advanced regarding my posts (assume I'm town and save yourself another re-read).
 

#HBC | marshy

wanted for 3rd degree swag
BRoomer
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
3,928
Location
swag
The mafia playstyle that I've been working with recently is to become the target of people's attention and votes. Doing this helps me analyze who's potential scum easier than it normally would be.
whatve you gathered so far?

tanny do you a have preference as to which of swiss and zac should go?
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
12,137
Location
NC
You exhibited scum behavior. Multiple posts in many ways trying to defend yourself, and mad defensive.
 

Vult Redux

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
1,004
Location
NJ/PA/FL
NNID
Voluero
I get defensive when people attack me too.

Interestingly enough that happens regardless of my alignment.
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
Not a problem Yoshi =P And I love you too Marshy.

Gimme a bit to catch up, I'll try posting later this evening.
 

#HBC | Dancer

The nicest of the damned.
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
1,390
Location
Orlando, Fl
Hmm... okay, I'm definitely thinking that Swiss or Zac should be the play toDay. If either one of them flips town, then the vig (if there is one) should kill the other. However, if either one of them flips scum, then the vig should definitely reconsider, since the two are lynching for each other.


Yeah, I'm starting to change my mind about Swiss. Tandora's latest post pretty much summed up why. I agree with everything except:


3) He multiposts constantly. It shows that he is not thinking about what all he wants to say.
Multiposting is a null point to me. All that shows to me is a certain playstyle, not a scum tell.

Also, quite ironically, I agree a lot with this:

5) He is the player who has received the most attention this day. To get a flip from him will give us the most information of who to look at next.
but at the same time get scummy vibes from it. It's hard to say why, it just makes me feel gross. I guess it's because I remember in Code Geass mafia, in my qt (it was an unconfirmed masons thing) KevinM, who WAS scum, said a lot about doing certain actions so to "obtain information". Of course, obtaining information for town is nothing but pro town, but saying that you should lynch someone for that reason just seems dangerously vague to me, if that makes sense.

Fos Tandora

Zac your next.
 

Tandora

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
0
Location
Kuz's bedroom.
@ Marsh I would go with Swiss over Zac. I don't care for either player, but I feel Swiss is better choice for the reasons I listed.

but at the same time get scummy vibes from it. It's hard to say why, it just makes me feel gross. I guess it's because I remember in Code Geass mafia, in my qt (it was an unconfirmed masons thing) KevinM, who WAS scum, said a lot about doing certain actions so to "obtain information". Of course, obtaining information for town is nothing but pro town, but saying that you should lynch someone for that reason just seems dangerously vague to me, if that makes sense.

Fos Tandora
Please don't compare me to KevinM. I don't play anything like him.

I think it is strange you target me specifically when others have made the same point. Sometimes you go with a lynch because you feel they are scum but on the off chance you're wrong you still get maximum information from the day.

Once a player flips, you can go back and look at how they interacted with others, get patterns, and wagon votes to help determine who is town and who is scum. This is why I don't like town players to play intentionally scummy or intentionally unclear. It does not help anyone for town to spend all their energy on an ally, end up lynching him, and then have unclear information to look back at. It creates too much T-v-T situations that lose town valuable lynches.

Swiss and Zac have both admitted that they have played that way today. The scenarios posted conclude it is best to lynch them because either they are scum and town gets ahead or they are town and town can use that information to find better lynches. Zac has at least claimed that he would clean up his act if he survives while Swiss continues to gloat that he'll play the same throughout.

As I write this, I am having second thoughts. I don't like that. I don't like WIFOM myself when trying to determine who is scum and who is town. "Oh he says he's town and he everything he has done is pro-town by acting scummy so I should trust him to be telling the truth despite what I consider anti-town antics." THIS IS NOT HELPFUL!
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,082
Location
Don't get mad - get Swiss
. Zac has at least claimed that he would clean up his act if he survives while Swiss continues to gloat that he'll play the same throughout.
Hold up here.

WHERE DID I DO THIS? Nowhere.

Also if you look at my meta (more meta :/) I almost ALWAYS play out loud during D1 RVS.

I don't mind people finding me scummy 'cuz I mad overreact, even though it is in my mature, but this is BS.

I'd fos you if it wuldn't look like me holding dancer's hand.
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,082
Location
Don't get mad - get Swiss
Now I'm gonna go through why your previous points are dumb.

As for Swiss:
1) He is intentionally antagonistic. I expect for someone to disagree with me or even insult my intelligence while playing mafia. But Swiss takes it to a new level by intentionally wanting to insult other players.
Only happened in RVS. I think it's useful, and do it regularly.

2) His posts are commonly one liners with fluff or "Bring it b*tches" attitude. Fluff posts are strong tools for scum. It allows them to look like they are contributing when they actually aren't.
I have contributed..who was first to dislike Zac as town? Me.
Who explained why Thinkamans flavour analysis wasn't all that? Me (and others)
Who took us out of RVS straight away? Me.
Who baited Thinkaman to see if he had a QT? Me.

etc etc


What have you done? Sat on your arse lurking. Calling me scummy? Jesus.

3) He multiposts constantly. It shows that he is not thinking about what all he wants to say.
Lol?

4) He gets into long debates with other players that don't really bring much information to the game which bogs the rest of us down with long novel length text to wade through.
If someone is saying BS about me and saying what I did was anti town I'm gonna have a go at them. Sure I now now Chaco was baiting me but the guy was being a douche. You're calling me scum because I post a lot?

And which do I do, do I post multiposts or massively long posts? Can't really do both, bro. Think it through you total spanner.

5) He is the player who has received the most attention this day. To get a flip from him will give us the most information of who to look at next.

Explain how




Interesting Swiss meta: People always do this to me D1. Whai? 'Cuz it's just how I play. You'd think I, as scum, would try to lay a little low, considering Zac's flip will lead to me being NK'd or investigated. Prolly is anti town and wastes some time, but I ain't changing for the world baby.
 

Chaco

Never Logs In
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
12,137
Location
NC
Tanny pretty much summed up everything I've said regarding Swiss, also, if you'd note multiposting is only a user style null tell if you're Macman. Swiss doesnt multipost ALL the time, so it does not make it null. There's a reason for those multiposts.

So yeah, anyone oppose a Swiss claim?
 

Tandora

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
0
Location
Kuz's bedroom.
Hold up here.

WHERE DID I DO THIS? Nowhere.

Also if you look at my meta (more meta :/) I almost ALWAYS play out loud during D1 RVS.

I don't mind people finding me scummy 'cuz I mad overreact, even though it is in my mature, but this is BS.

I'd fos you if it wuldn't look like me holding dancer's hand.
Looking over your posts, I have to admit you don't directly gloat. But your attitude is definitely unrepentant of your actions. Use post 380 as an example of not being helpful.

And I don't look at meta. I try to look at a players actions during the game they are in. You cannot even be consistent on what you think your own meta is.

To be more concise - I ALWAYS try to appear town by the logic that I do not try to be scummy. This is more semantics than play style.

Also I do honestly think what I did was useful, it got me my read on Zac which I'm sticking by. I can agree that D1 does always seem to be the day I'm most suspected of being scum, and that I can slightly hinder town in some respects - I'm almost always targeted N1 by a town power role - which implies I did appear scummy, but the information I obtain is useful, imo. That IS how I scumhunt D1.

Excuse me?

I said I always try to appear pro town. Which I do. Why would it be beneficial for a townie to try and appear scummy?

I don't mind a bit of meta, I just think you are relying on it way too much. Especially given the fact you don't have much to meta me on.
I have contributed..who was first to dislike Zac as town? Me.
Who explained why Thinkamans flavour analysis wasn't all that? Me (and others)
Who took us out of RVS straight away? Me.
Who baited Thinkaman to see if he had a QT? Me.

etc etc


What have you done? Sat on your arse lurking. Calling me scummy? Jesus.
Your disliking of Zac doesn't prove anything until we see a flip.
Yes, you AND OTHERS. Congrats on agreeing with other people.
Why are you so confident that you are the sole person responsible for taking us of out RVS? I don't see it, I just hear you talk about it.
Your baiting of Thinkaman was useless. It gained nothing other than long debates over what your question meant.

If someone is saying BS about me and saying what I did was anti town I'm gonna have a go at them. Sure I now now Chaco was baiting me but the guy was being a douche. You're calling me scum because I post a lot?

And which do I do, do I post multiposts or massively long posts? Can't really do both, bro. Think it through you total spanner.
Wonderful scum tactic there. "If you disagree with me, I'll call you names to prove my point."

You do both. You have made lots of double, triple, and quads posts when you're not getting into ridiculous debates with other players.

Getting a flip from Swiss is important because he's the one we have had to spend most of our energy on this whole day. He did lead the wagon on Zac, so if he flips scum, I am more likely to think Zac is town. If he flips town, I would think Zac has a chance of being scum.


Interesting Swiss meta: People always do this to me D1. Whai? 'Cuz it's just how I play. You'd think I, as scum, would try to lay a little low, considering Zac's flip will lead to me being NK'd or investigated. Prolly is anti town and wastes some time, but I ain't changing for the world baby.
Oh, now he gloats about how he won't change....
 

Riddle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
Rochester, NY
If people "always" do this to you Day 1, then why would you use the same playstyle whether you were town or scum? Do you honestly think that (assuming you are town) your actions have led to a favorable result?
 

#HBC | Dancer

The nicest of the damned.
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
1,390
Location
Orlando, Fl
. . . Why am I still up?

Oh yeah because I have scum to catch. . .

@Tandora: Yeah, I know that there are others who said that as well. I was going to address them in basically the same way I addressed but I guess I forgot. Sorry.

Also I wasn't comparing you to KevinM, I was just using him, who was scum in that game, as an example for scummy behavior.

Anyways though I'm actually satisfied with your response so I'll retract my fos on you.

@Chaco: Are you saying that Swiss is inconsistent with the multi-posting thing? If so, can you prove it? I'm still not really seeing it here.

@Zac: I didn't like this post to much:

The mafia playstyle that I've been working with recently is to become the target of people's attention and votes. Doing this helps me analyze who's potential scum easier than it normally would be. Not only does this help me but it helps you guys to; it gives you posts you can go back to later in the future and look through for contradictions.

Here's where we're at right now if you decide to lynch me (which is fine by me, this is a team game):

Case 1: I'm scum and you kill me. This is really good for town. You can go back through my posts in later Days and find more scum by looking through posts.
Case 2: I'm town and you kill me. Well given I'm vanilla this isn't a big loss. Now you have the same situation of old posts as evidence to go through and look at.
Case 3: I'm scum and you don't kill me. This is a shame that you let me slip by a lynch, however it's not that big of a deal. You still have all the old posts to look back to, and if later when we kill of scum you find some connection between them and me it will be much easier to find out if I'm scum or not.
Case 4: I'm town and you don't kill me. This, believe it or not, has the same effect of killing me. Regardless of if I'm killed now or later, mafia will try and kill someone else in hopes they hit a power role; mafia already knows who is town and who isn't. I don't see any reason why they should kill off a vanilla when they could go for a power role instead.

Hope that helps. If I survive to Day 2 I plan on doing much more direct scum hunting. It's not a big deal if I survive. However, if you do plan to kill me off then start making plans in advanced regarding my posts (assume I'm town and save yourself another re-read).
Outwardly I'm reading that "your fine if your lynched since you'll be taking one for the team", but, that's not what I'm picking up from the true intent. What I'm really getting out of this is a stride for self-preservation. I mean, sure, you go towards to topic of being fine with your death a lot, but really, that's what I would expect scum to do. By making it seem that he is cool with his death, he is also making his lynch seem less appealing, so really him going near that topic a lot proves nothing.

But still, what if he is being honest? What if he really is cool with being lynched, even if it's a mislynch?

Well, if it really IS a mislynch, then he shouldn't be cool with it. That's either bad town or scum play. What really set the alarm bells off for me, even more than that, is his promise to do more direct scum hunting if he lives till Day 2. Basically, self-preservation at it's finest. Why does he have to wait until then to do his scum hunting? Convinitly, a Day later, an extra Day to live, where anything could happen. Why can't he just do it now?

Can we get this guy lynched please?
 

Swiss

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
1,082
Location
Don't get mad - get Swiss
Looking over your posts, I have to admit you don't directly gloat. But your attitude is definitely unrepentant of your actions. Use post 380 as an example of not being helpful.
Look. I'm sorry, k? I come across like this ALL THE ****ED TIME with capitals to EMPHASISE my point.


And I don't look at meta.
Tell that to Riddle.






Your disliking of Zac doesn't prove anything until we see a flip.
Yes, you AND OTHERS. Congrats on agreeing with other people.
Why are you so confident that you are the sole person responsible for taking us of out RVS? I don't see it, I just hear you talk about it.
Your baiting of Thinkaman was useless. It gained nothing other than long debates over what your question meant.
I said I'd contributed, not that I'd found 100% certain scum......I don't see why you misunderstood that?

I just feel it was mainly me. Let's not get into a major discussion about it considering I WON'T back down and everyone hates my long posts about pointless stuff.


The baiting COULD have got as an awesome piece of info.

Wonderful scum tactic there. "If you disagree with me, I'll call you names to prove my point."
Spanner.


You do both. You have made lots of double, triple, and quads posts when you're not getting into ridiculous debates with other players.
Are both mult and long posts scummy? Or just one. I forget what you were saying.

But you ARE calling me scum 'cuz of the length and frequency of my posts, yes?

Getting a flip from Swiss is important because he's the one we have had to spend most of our energy on this whole day. He did lead the wagon on Zac, so if he flips scum, I am more likely to think Zac is town. If he flips town, I would think Zac has a chance of being scum.
FFS.

But I agree.




And don't have a go at ME for coming back at Chaco when he was the one PUSHING ME. I was responding to what he said, so how you can sit there calling me a douche for responding to accusations is beyond me.
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
1.) I hate you Marshy
2.) I do lurk =P Quite often actually
3.) Keyword was try, while I did read all 10 pages of posts, I did nothing more then a skim and wasn't really paying attention to WHO posted what, which is why i waited for today where I could re-read it again before making a post of my thoughts.

Now onto my thoughts!

Swiss - Personally, I'm getting a town feel from Swiss at the moment, he tried a tactic, it failed, and it backfired *shrug* his responses don't really seem all that scummy to me.

@Thinkaman - Don't worry about the flavor too much yet =P Wait for some people to be killed and see their roles/alignment and after it gets close enough to the end, THEN you can start thinking of flavor and how it applies, and you'll have a lot more information on how people were acting and their connections to other players to go off as well.

@Chaco - You like answering questions aimed at other people don't you? One was for Swiss where you said he was posting something as sarcasm (which...its the internet....unless I see <sarcasm></sarcasm> tags =P it doesn't exist). Then later on you started going after him directly yourself...It's just odd imo.

@Swords - You never did say, why did you ask Zac about his time zone?

In general....Considering I multi-post quite often, mostly because I finish writing something and something else pops in my head, I find it a null tell myself.

As for Zac...well I am finding him a bit scummy, his initial reason for voting Swiss, then his attempts to say it was a joke is just...bad. Add in the fact that he has enough time to consider the after-effects of his death, but not enough time to scum-hunt until tomorrow just seems really fishy to me. His possible contradictions with his claim is interesting to say the least and I kind of want some clarification from him.

@Zac - You claim to be vanilla townie, yet you talk about your flavor abilities..... mind explaining that? =P
 

Riddle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
Rochester, NY
He already did Nix. Stop skimming.

Lots of wish-washy opinions and parroting. Add something new please?
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
The only thing i saw Zac post in regards to that was in reference to not knowing if OTHER people's roles would affect his, yet he made a comment about HIS flavour ability, if he mentioned this exactly then point it out, Cause I still don't see it.

Where exactly was it wishy-washy in my post? I gave a solid stance on Swiss and Zac, as well as questions to Chaco and Swords.....

As for the parroting, "shrug" Nothing I can do about me having the same opinions as someone else, There's only 3 days left to deadlines, and until something new does come along most of its already been said.
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
Bah, nevermind -_- re-read it, For some reason i kept on seeing a "my flavor abilities" where there was no my. =P My bad.
 

Riddle

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
1,656
Location
Rochester, NY
Nix said:
Swiss - Personally, I'm getting a town feel from Swiss at the moment, he tried a tactic, it failed, and it backfired *shrug* his responses don't really seem all that scummy to me.

As for Zac...well I am finding him a bit scummy, his initial reason for voting Swiss, then his attempts to say it was a joke is just...bad. Add in the fact that he has enough time to consider the after-effects of his death, but not enough time to scum-hunt until tomorrow just seems really fishy to me. His possible contradictions with his claim is interesting to say the least and I kind of want some clarification from him.
Emphasis is mine

Seems pretty wishy-washy to me, and these are the stances that you said were "solid"
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
I am curious though Zac, why you can go scumhunting tomorrow instead of starting today? You have 3 days till deadline, that should be plenty of time to do something right?

Still....to be honest....I'm seeing some similarities here between another mafia game I played in....and it's interesting to say the least now that I think about it...I'm gonna call it right here =P Zac/Marshy scum team!

Ugh, Fine Riddle.

Zac - Scum
Swiss - Town

Satisfied? =P
 

Nix2100

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
0
Actually, here's my emphasis on that

Vote: Zac

Oh look =P Multi-posts!, that must be a HUGE tell am I right?
(And yes, I do believe this puts Zac at L-1....I also now wait for my bandwagon that I usually get for D1)
 

#HBC | marshy

wanted for 3rd degree swag
BRoomer
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
3,928
Location
swag
Still....to be honest....I'm seeing some similarities here between another mafia game I played in....and it's interesting to say the least now that I think about it...I'm gonna call it right here =P Zac/Marshy scum team!
youre aware that im cleared?

and im assuming youre talking about my play in tourney mafia?

wuddya think of the idea of you voting everyone that i do essentially making me a doublevoter?

next postll be the first of a new page

request votecount
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom