Tales of Symphonia Mafia | Game Over - Town Wins Yayuhzz

[UTDZac]

What would you like to know?

I've been busy recently, especially on the first few days when this game started. I've skimmed over mosts posts vs reading them in depth... there were just too many.

Like I said before, there was no good reason in the first place for me to jump on Swiss's wagon, that is why I unvoted. I've been read more recent posts in greater detail, looking for someone suspicious to vote on. There's no-one currently that I think is scum. I'll come up some scumhunt questions soon.

If you want to make better use of Day 1 lynch, don't aim at me. I'm vanilla town. I didn't see my name on Thinkaman's list either.

 

[Tandora]

I apologize for this being so long. It is because I'm trying to catch up and post as much of my thoughts as possible.

I have been in games where flavor was helpful and I've been in games where flavor had absolutely no meaning. If people who have played in Gheb's games before say he does not go by flavor, I would err on the side of caution and believe them.

I haven't played any ToS, so maybe I'm biased on not wanting it to be flavor based. I'll probably still check the wiki so I can understand what people are talking about, but don't expect me to get any inside jokes.

I think Thinkaman is falling under the trap of being a new forum player. You try to apply everything you know about AIMafia and it only causes trouble. Listing flavor and possible role connections is almost as bad as making a list of you who think is town or scum. Don't give scum additional information!

And for new players, please now that RVS is over, don't self vote and don't self hammer. You only hurt town by denying additional information and there is always the possibilty you could convince players of your innocence. The only game I can think of where scum tried to hammer himself was Pikmafia. Every other time it was town losing a townie. Play to win guys!

So much of the voting has revovled around Swiss today, I feel that we need to either lynch him or someone who has been heavily focused on him to get the most out of our information for today. To allow all that fuss go on without using it gives us less information than doing a quick lynch.

Because of the Swiss wagon, I did an ISO on him.

And even if they AREN'T in the game, what's wrong with me fishing for him using a QT.

Statistically pro town if he is in a QT, and if he isn't - it's just a wasted post.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous you are.

That makes no sense. Don't you mean he's scum? Why would town have a QT?

I don't care if you're nice. I care that your reasoning is incorrect.


Also your 'big man' post isn't scary. Less D*ck waving.

Aggressive, unhelpful post.

I'm amazed at hilt, Thinkaman and Chaco.

I never assumed there WAS a QT in my question to Thinkaman. (I actually did and still do assume there is one -for scum [Like there ALWAYS is]).

Seems like a contradiction. Swiss says every game he has been in has a QT, but now he doesn't assume there is one?

Personally, Swiss's play has been unhelpful at best. He bogged down conversation with his debate about QT with Chacotaco, lots of multiple posts with little content, several of his posts are just plain aggressive. At thist point, I am inclined to think scum or dumb and either is just as good.

i feel like clearing myself. the color of my role is blue

I don't understand what you mean by this? Is it sarcasm?

Ok, those are my thoughts. You guys will be hearing more from me. Thanks for being patient!

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Hey Zac, what time zone are you in? Yes, this could be important to know.

 

[Swiss]

@ Tan - You clearly did not read my posts in context or think about them.

Post #1 - Masons

Post #2 - A reply to an antagonistic post

Post #3 - No contradiction - the assumption that QT's exist is not imperative to the possibility of him having one.



Don't bother posting such drivel again.

 

[UTDZac]

Time Zone: CST

Question for Swiss, out of all the people that have voted you, which do you feel plays most like scum?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

swiss i was confused as to why you were unvoted...i had seen some unvotes and riddles post and assumed that you were being unwagoned which saddened me

dancer 224 grossed me out so i fosd you

tanny i was saying that im cleared cuz i knew the color of the town role pm without it being in the op

riddler whenll your macman half post? what does macman think about zacs 241 in particular?

request votecount

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Ok, quite clearly, that was not my only reason for voting Swiss. As everyone who plays against me knows, I keep the vote on myself for most of the first day... but Swiss seemed very scummy, and his "I'll get my partners to NK you" was basically what crossed the line. Regular BY play, had no one seemed very scummy at this point, would have been to keep the vote on myself, even this far into the day.

I do still believe Swiss is the best lynch choice for today... and seeing as we're far from a lynch, there's no problem with me putting it on (I took it off since he was already at L-1 with my vote... and way too early in the day).

Unvote Vote: Swiss

 

[Dr. Riddler]

Hey riddle, i haven't read the thread yet.

but yu can go ahead and clear marshy as town

also im me and tell me yur thoughts so i have something to start with when i read

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Ok, quite clearly, that was not my only reason for voting Swiss.

Then why didn't you go through the trouble to state your reasoning instead of trying to take the easy route? It didn't seem from your post that that was what "crossed the line". And if there was other reasoning, I would expect it to be bundled into your post, along with what you said. Not "Omg Night Kill??? /vote". Were you expecting us to assume what your reasoning was?

As everyone who plays against me knows, I keep the vote on myself for most of the first day...

What does this have to do with anything? Why is this even in this paragraph?

but Swiss seemed very scummy, and his "I'll get my partners to NK you" was basically what crossed the line. Regular BY play, had no one seemed very scummy at this point, would have been to keep the vote on myself, even this far into the day.

These two sentences have no business being next to each other. Why should we care if you'd have your vote on yourself, and why does it make your voting or unvoting against Swiss more or less valid?

 

[Swiss]

Time Zone: CST

Question for Swiss, out of all the people that have voted you, which do you feel plays most like scum?

Sorry man, but it's you. Which I have stated.

@ BY - I have been scum (and won) quite a lot, I also joke around a lot in my posts. Put these two together and you get a scum player that knows not to out himself by proclaiming scum buddies AND a NK ability, and a player that is liable to crack jokes.

Find me scummy for my mad overreactions - fine. I can understand that. Don't call me scum 'cuz of a joke. Especially not a funny one.

 

[X1-12]

I really really really don't like UTDZac's play because of his really big habit of either:
not answering questions
responding to questions with other questions
answering questions by distracting from the what is really being asked, like a politician

also that you don't seem to act in a way that reflects your position (currently L-2 I believe)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

"Colette…when the oracle is conveyed, you’ll become the Chosen who will save the world, right? You’re going to be like the hero, Mithos!"

---​

Swiss - 4: Thinkaman, Chacotaco, Dr. Riddler, Blue Yoshi
UTDZac - 5: Vult Redux, X1-12, Marshigio, Swiss, Sworddancer
Blue Yoshi - 1: Hilt

Not Voting: Tandora, Rajam, UTDZac;

Takes 7 / 13 to lynch!

 

[Riddle]

I'm honestly not understanding the Zac hate. Could someone (preferably Swiss or Sworddancer) explain?

 

[Rajam]

ok checking old stuff I found this:

Hi Marshigo.

I ninja'd you.

Explain your vote or I'll get my scum buddies to NK you.

... (I won't even commentate on the last sentence)

Unvote Vote Raj

Right after the first post you vote me, why is that? You didn't even put a reason...

Actually nvm Marsh - I don;t care about your opinion.


THINKAMAN, my man. Whydya vote for me?

Vult, same goes to you. 'Course you could just invote - but you should leave your vote on me.


Ridder, just 'cuz You're jealous of my mad skillz don't mean you can try and get me lynched in every game we play. I always outlive you. TAKE IT LIKE A MAAAAAAAAN. You don;t need to explain why you voted me, 'cuz I know you have no reason other than mad jealousy.

After the first post in which you asked marshigio for explanation, you dropped it in like 10~15 minutes (that's the time difference between the 1st and 3rd post)... it's like you wanted to look disconnected from marsh but then you dropped on your "accusation" in an invisible way. Care to explain why did you drop on this? What do you think of marshigio?

 

[#HBC | marshy]

skim harder rajam? wuddya think of zac and his wagon(ers)?

riddle can you tell macman to read the game? deadlines in like less than a week and therell be little posting over the weekend

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Oh you're being rude Swiss, we should address this question to general public:

@everyone: how is your qt link working?

i didn't know there cud be issues with qt links. good thing mine is working properly

 

[UTDZac]

I really really really don't like UTDZac's play because of his really big habit of either:
not answering questions
responding to questions with other questions
answering questions by distracting from the what is really being asked, like a politician

also that you don't seem to act in a way that reflects your position (currently L-2 I believe)

Really? I thought this post explained everything. I even asked "What would you like to know?"

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10854815#post10854815

Also, I don't act differently under pressure of votes. Being at L-1 means nothing to me. If you feel I'm scum and want to kill me off, that's your decision; town will be at a loss. Like I said before, I'd focus your efforts on someone else.

 

[Rajam]

i dont get it either

fos dancer

Wait, why the random FoS? Because you were not responding him with the first sentence...

---

I'll give my oppinion on the Zac issue as soon as I catch up on the thread. I'm not reading quickly and in fact, I'm doing the opposite by reading very carefully everything from the very beginning. I still have to make a big post (lol) with my oppinions on every player, since that helps me to know who am I thinking is town (and hence is probably mindgaming me lol), who do I think is scum and why, and also see who I don't have an oppinion on and therefore I should watch that player better.

 

[Thinkaman]

Probably wasn't a good idea to speculate roles. Just sayin'.

Why? God forbid we figure out the game and win.

Now tell us, what did your writeup accomplish, Thinkaman?

It gave people who haven't played ToS an idea of what is going on? That there is probably an independent faction and a lot of false reads for investigative roles?

@Thinkaman: Why are you pushing this flavor thing so hard? I mean like, are you reaally that stuck on the idea of writing up a flavor summary?

I wasn't pushing for it. At least two players said they were interested in a flavor summary, so I sat down and wrote that in like 10 minutes. Then I sat on it for days because people were insisting it was a bad idea without giving any reason as to why.

I have been in games where flavor was helpful and I've been in games where flavor had absolutely no meaning. If people who have played in Gheb's games before say he does not go by flavor, I would err on the side of caution and believe them.

Or you could spend 15 seconds to go look at his past games and see for yourself?

I think Thinkaman is falling under the trap of being a new forum player. You try to apply everything you know about AIMafia and it only causes trouble. Listing flavor and possible role connections is almost as bad as making a list of you who think is town or scum. Don't give scum additional information!

What. How does this even begin to make sense?

Assume scum has 2-3 members. If just one of those members has played ToS or cares enough to wiki it (which I think scum would be more likely to do than town if they have a fake claim) the entire scum faction gains most of the benefit; both scum night votes and to a limited extent scum town votes are going to made with the benefit of information. The same goes for any non-town multiple-person faction.

On the other hand, this isn't true for town at all; everyone is an island. The fact that I have played ToS a few times doesn't help other town members at all since they have no reason to follow my lead and benefit from whatever advantages flavor may or may not supply.

By putting it out there for everyone, now the town is fully informed and can make educated decisions with their own logic. Since scum was highly likely to already be fully informed, how is this bad?

And for new players, please now that RVS is over, don't self vote and don't self hammer. You only hurt town by denying additional information and there is always the possibilty you could convince players of your innocence. The only game I can think of where scum tried to hammer himself was Pikmafia. Every other time it was town losing a townie. Play to win guys!

I hope this isn't addressed to me; that's like saying "don't stick a fork in electrical sockets". Why would any Innocent ever do this or think it's a good idea?

So much of the voting has revovled around Swiss today, I feel that we need to either lynch him or someone who has been heavily focused on him to get the most out of our information for today. To allow all that fuss go on without using it gives us less information than doing a quick lynch.

Yeah, it's Swiss or Zac at this point.

If you want to make better use of Day 1 lynch, don't aim at me. I'm vanilla town. I didn't see my name on Thinkaman's list either.

So either you have an obscure character with no power or scum that felt compelled to respond to the flavor summary without actually claiming anything specific. No one else, including Swiss, felt the need to address it.

 

[Rajam]

Bandwagon unvoting? Meh, not that unusual, even if I'm not following suit. I still can't say anything so far has been more incriminating that Swiss's spammy overreaction; it's not so much that it was super-incriminating, but it has been the thing I feel least good about so far and I don't see that changing before Night.

Zac is trying really hard to challenge that idea though.

At any rate, here's the flavor for anyone that wants it.

Spoiler

A long time ago, Mithos saved the world with his companions Kratos and Yuan, as well as his sister Martel who died. Mithos and his pals basically became gods and started an angel-like civilization named Cruxis with the ultimate goal of reviving Martel.

Cruxis controls everything in a convoluted plan to reach this goal. Part of this includes dividing the world in two like an hourglass, so that one half is always waxing and the other is always waning; the flow from one to the other somehow keeps Martel on life support. Furthermore, Cruix has a puppet organization known as the Desians who are kinda like Nazis, with concentration camps and what-not. People subscribe to a fake religion worshiping Cruxis and "their goddess Martel" hoping for salvation from this. Yuan and Kratos reluctantly follow this plan for many hundred years, as Martel's lingering spirit watches in horror.

Kratos falls in love with a human named Anna in a concentration camp. He tried to help her escape after she gave birth to her son Lloyd, but she died. A dwarf named Dirk found her body and Lloyd, and raised him as an adopted son.

Lloyd grows up in a small town with his best friends Genis and Colette. They go to school under their teacher Raine, Genis's sister. Colette is the "chosen one" who will one day undergo the "journey of salvation" to save the world and defeat the Desians. In reality all she is doing is sacrificing her body as a potential vessel for Martel to be revived in, and "flipping the hourglass" so the other half of the world will be suffering and it will be their turn to do all this and the cycle can continue.

The journey begins, and at key points the party meets the angel Remiel (of Cruxis) who claims to be Colette's true father and gives the instructions for the journey.

The party is also joined by Kratos, who claims to be a mere mercenary. Kratos think Lloyd is his son, but everyone is clueless as to his role and view him as just a regular guy. Under his guidance, the party successfully compeletes their long journey killing countless Desians including major generals along the way.

Late in the journey, the party starts to be attacked by an ninja named Sheena. Sheena has been sent from the other world to kill Colette and stop their journey. (So the hourglass cannot "flip" and her world becoem the sucky one.) She ultimately befriends and joins the party.

When the journey is complete, the party makes it to the Tower of Salvation and Colette begins to sacrifice herself. Remiel shows up, gets cocky, and breaks out his "I'm evil you guys are dumb" speech too soon, and the party kills him. Kratos was AWOL during this, and Remiel calls out for his mercy. Kratos reveals awesome angel wings and there is an optional boss fight where he probably destroys the party.

Then Mithos shows up, referring to himself by his obscure last name "Yggdrasil". He's an incredibly powerful angel who annihilates the party. (Unwinnable fight.)

The party, including Colette, is saved by a group of Desians you defeated previously. Turns out they are not Desians, but a rebel anti-Desian group called the Renegade who dress as Desians to further their goals. This group is led by Botta and Yuan; Yuan does this in secret rebellion against Mithos. The party escapes to the other world. (The other side of the "hourglass")

Here they find new party members:
-Zelos, the current "chosen one" of this world.
-Presea, a young girl who is actually 28, trapped in her body by years of evil experiments and technologies.
-Regal, mysterious guy who turns out to be super wealthy. Mercy-killed Presea's sister. Really awesome character, BTW.
-Mithos, joins the party but doesn't fight. A young boy who claims to have been named after the legendary hero Mithos. He is secretly the real Mithos aka Yggdrasil, spying on the party. However, he seems to develop some real friendship with the party, especially Genis.

After a long adventure spanning both worlds, the party moves to take on Mithos. Zelos betrays the party, and Colette is captured.

Based on a plot point, one of two events will happen:
-Zelos will double cross Mithos, and Kratos will refuse to take sides.
-The party will kill Zelos, and Kratos will double-cross Mithos.

Either way, Mithos successfully gets Martel into Colette's body, and Martel finally gets to tell Mithos how foolish all his actions have been. She says goodbye and her spirit is able to finally be free. The party fights and defeats the distraught Mithos.

The game goes on a little past that because Mithos is stubborn and refuses to die, but it's not really that relevant to Mafia.

CONCLUSION:

Party:
Lloyd
Genis
Colette- Sacrifice power?
Kratos- Double agent
Raine- Doc
Sheena- Double agent? Investigative role?
Zelos- Traitor
Presea
Regal
Dirk (adoptive father)
Noishe (giant dog)

Renegade Faction:
Yuan
Botta

Cruxis:
Mithos Yggdrasil
Desian Generals: Pronyma, Rodyle, Forcystus, Kvar, Magnius

Martel would be really hard/weird to have as a functional role.

I read everything and I can only conclude this:

Party:
Lloyd
Genis
Colette- Sacrifice power?
Kratos- Double agent
Raine- Doc
Sheena- Double agent? Investigative role?
Zelos- Traitor
Presea
Regal
Dirk (adoptive father)
Noishe (giant dog)

Renegade Faction:
Yuan
Botta

13 good characters, 13 players. We won't gain anything following flavor and mass claiming.

 

[Rajam]

Actually Kratos/Zelos could be a traitor (mentioned in the OP) but still I don't like the mass-claim idea... ¿?

 

[Thinkaman]

Rajam, Mithos is the main villain. Renegades are a third party that ends up helping the party in the very end, but is probably independent for purposes of mafia is those characters are involved.

Mithos/Pronyma are the two most obvious cases for scum role names, not that it matters. (Why care about scum flavor names?)

Recap: Zelos betrays the party. Kratos betrays the party only to double-cross the villain and come back. It's possible to make Zelos double-cross too.

Dirk and Noishe probably aren't assigned roles, they are just the throwaway town names I'd throw in if I were designing the game. At any rate, we really don't have anything to gain from flavor at this point since no sort of claim is happening.

I'm still thinking Swiss over Zac. Does anyone have a compelling reason that we should be killing Zac first, or is it just preference? I'm largely indifferent but again, leaning Swiss for previously mentioned reasons.

 

[X1-12]

UTDZac

Why did you lie and say otherwise then? especially with such a pathetic excuse, is there any way you can make me think it wasn't just you wagonning for wagon's sake

If you were just wagoning for wagons sake then just say it


also I don't get these two posts, unless I'm missing something

I originally votes for you Swiss cause I didn't like some of your responses to pressure. Then after you made some more posts, as did others, I decided to bck down. I don't have a good read on you yet to understand what you're going for. If others still want you lynched, they can but they don't need my help.

I don't think my character is really helpful as of now. Hard to say, I don't know much about flavor abilities.

[Why did you vote swiss?]

No good reason.



unvote

There's also 2 glasses of WIFOM with you saying 'oh I'm a Townie' which I don't like, why would you try to create WIFOM? also almost bordering on AtE

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait, I just noticed:

I don't think my character is really helpful as of now. Hard to say, I don't know much about flavor abilities.

I'm vanilla town.

Uh.........

Unvote

Vote: UTD Zac

 

[X1-12]

So everyone knows

UTDZac is L-1

 

[Rajam]

Also, this post made me think a lot of people were unvoting:



Anyways though, now I want to hear from Riddle and Zac again. Also Tandora and Rajam.

AND

unvote vote Zac

? I unvoted Swiss because I only voted him in the RVS... despite all the nonsense coming from him, I don't think he is scum... I'd say is only a townie trying to get reads and accelerating the game with that end.

My suspicious.... Zac mainly, I mean, how can you vote (outside from RVS) just for lolz? other than that I don't have real suspicious at the moment. Most likely, someone being very or kind of active is mafia. I guess is something from statistics lol I mean, how many times mafia plays dumb day 1? most likely dumb plays are just townies making dumb mistakes (...) or is because they're newbies, and Zac is a rookie in mafia games... even I am a rookie still... I think lynching someone "dumb" day 1 would most likely throw some townie dead day 1.

Also I don't like inactivity (sorry about that past 2~3 days, I was away taking holidays), but now I'll get more active. Inactives need pressure and I haven't heard of Tandora other than a "I am here sorry guys" and a prod lol

vote: Tandora

1, 2 posts in the whole game?? I guess that's the most inactive behavior I've seen in all of my mafia games (only 4 with this one...but still). I don't want to get him lynched (yet) but I don't like people who doesn't give me any reads. Tandora who do you think is scum? Who do you think is town? What do you think about the mass claim idea and the flavor+possible roles that Thinkaman put?

 

[Rajam]

Zac at L-1??

Do people really think he is scum? Most likely he is acting like a rookie... I mean seriously I've never seen mafia acting dumb day 1 (well not at least in the few mafia games I've played/readed)

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Ugh... not comfortable putting Zac at L_1.

unvote


However, so far I think Zac is the best lynch for toDay so far. This is for for 2 main reasons:

1. He has come off scummy to me due to jumping on the Swiss wagon for a very poor reason. \
2. His story is inconsistent.

So to answer your question Riddle.

@Rajam: Why did you ask Tandora who he thinks is town? Should that really matter to you?

 

[Chaco]

Urgh this is frustrating. More to come later but for now.

Do NOT EVER speculate town roles.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

agreed with chaco

how is what you pointed out scummy thinkaman? seems easily explainable and consistent with how zacs played this game

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Also, Thinkaman, can we please get off of the flavor talk? It's really probably not going to be helpful. Also, that's ALL I'm pretty much seeing you do. You've been told to cut it out for quite awhile now, how about you start listiting to that? vote Thinkaman

Also, Thinkaman, why are you voting for Zac now? I'm purely curious here, I didn't quite pick up on your reason in the post where you vote for him.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

double ninja'd.

Also fos Rajam for joining in in the flavor talk.

 

[Chaco]

Sword, don't you think it'd be more relateable to Zac if you lynched Swiss first? The way you line up point 2 would be better determined from his lynch first. Just sayin'.

Post more later.

 

[Chaco]

Err point 1 rather.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Are people not noticing what Thinka just said about Zac? That's... kind of a huge, huge scum slip. And I'm completely fine voting/hammer Zac if he's chosen as the lynch for the day. I won't hammer too early, though.

Gonna do a reread on Rajam when I have the chance. Also, just to note, I have a tournament tomorrow that I'm going to be all day long, and I'll probably be worn out from it for at least part of Sunday, so I'll post when I can. I'll be here for the rest of the day, though.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Um. . . Hilt, can you please elaborate on the scum slip? Cause I'm not seeing it.

 

[Chaco]

Yeah, that's a slip from Zac.

Sword:

Zac said he didnt know much about his characters ability, and then claimed Vanilla. Pretty much it.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

but zac skims everything. i think he mayve seen "vanilla townie" and literally not understand what that meant

 

[Thinkaman]

Urgh this is frustrating. More to come later but for now.

Do NOT EVER speculate town roles.

I suppose we should also not try to find the Witches either? On the bright side, I think you're almost certainly town, as you are coming across as genuinely mad at me.

Oops, should I not have said that either?

how is what you pointed out scummy thinkaman? seems easily explainable and consistent with how zacs played this game

Also, Thinkaman, why are you voting for Zac now? I'm purely curious here, I didn't quite pick up on your reason in the post where you vote for him.

Huh? It was a direct contradiction...

I don't think my character is really helpful as of now. Hard to say, I don't know much about flavor abilities.

I'm vanilla town.

AKA:

I'm under suspicion so I'm going to vaguely allude to some ability my role has while downplaying its relevance so it seems casual!

Uh oh, I'm about to get lynched! Quick, claim vanilla townie!

It's about as blatant as you can get.

Also, Thinkaman, can we please get off of the flavor talk? It's really probably not going to be helpful. Also, that's ALL I'm pretty much seeing you do. You've been told to cut it out for quite awhile now, how about you start listiting to that? vote Thinkaman

What? Other people asked for a flavor summary. I wrote it, which I put in a bollapsed box. Since then, I've only made one post about flavor, in response to Rajam. Where are you getting this?

I did spend a lot of early posts arguing in favor of a mass roleclaim; I'm still completely in favor of it, no one else wants to do it, fine, whatever. But saying that I've only been talking about flavor (one-and-a-half posts total) over everyone else's protests? That's jsut plain incorrect. It's like you are looking for a place where you can invent hysteria.

 

[Thinkaman]

Sorry, the last paragraph of my post had formatting typos. I'll make sure to preview in the future, I'm used to editting these sort of things.

Also, Thinkaman, can we please get off of the flavor talk? It's really probably not going to be helpful. Also, that's ALL I'm pretty much seeing you do. You've been told to cut it out for quite awhile now, how about you start listiting to that? vote Thinkaman

What? Other people asked for a flavor summary. I wrote it, which I put in a collapsed box. Since then, I've only made one post about flavor, in response to Rajam. Where are you getting this?

I did spend a lot of early posts arguing in favor of a mass roleclaim; I'm still completely in favor of it, no one else wants to do it, fine, whatever. But saying that I've only been talking about flavor (one-and-a-half posts total) over everyone else's protests? Trying to paint me as "the flavor guy"? That's just plain incorrect. It's like you are looking for a place where you can incite hysteria.