TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

[ThunderSageNun]

I haven't really played SoJ, I just watched a playthrough at the time as my gut was giving me all sorts of warnings that I wouldn't like the game after playing the demo, and I'm just glad I believed it.

Spoiler: Just in case

The worst part is that, I'd say the cases are more coherent than those from DD? I didn't find any of the antagonists/culprits to be as lame as those from that game, and the whole sequence behind murders didn't feel as convoluted and nonsensical (I still have no idea how the hell someone came up with 5-2 and 5-3, and yeah, I know every game in the series has generally elaborate scenarios, but those always stood out to me as being much harder to process). And I do highly appreciate the return of old exploration methods where you could check every area regardless of its relationship to the murder and get some filler text out of it.
But I couldn't stand how it constantly seemed to try to live off the series greater moments by attempting to recreate them, how pushed to the side the return of characters feels (Maya was done dirty), the retcon to Apollos backstory, the whole revolution thingamajig that feels really badly put together, THE GOD DAMN SPECTATORS MAKING STUPID COMMENTS EVERY DAMN SECOND OF THE TRIALS (I hate you for making this more prominent PLvsAA!), and I absolutely hated the central characters this time around, Nahyuta and Rayfa are the pits. The pacing feels all over the place as well, with the first case feeling like it lasts an eternity and case 4 being so pointless in the grand scheme of things, which is a problem given how case 3 ends. I can't even say I salvaged anything out of the music this time around, nothing stood out, at least DD for all of its problems has a fantastic score. Also the seanse looks like such a pain in the ass mechanic.
I'd say that in general I don't really like how...larger in scope everything has to be nowadays, every case has to matter in more significant ways to the conclusion of the game than before, there always seems to be some big international entity behind the events of the game, it feels less personal. I enjoyed how I2 did it, but that's about it honestly.

 

[Geoffrey Druyts]

Waking up to see Phoenix in Papageno's new video thumbnail and the video itself made me really happy. Nick is finally getting the attention he deserves.
It'd suck if he doesn't end up being FP5 after all, so I'm still gonna keep my hype down.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I think the only other time I've seen Phoenix mentioned as a particularly likely candidate was when people bought on that dumb companion theory.

 

[Dukemon102]

The direction of characters' backtories or how some plot points came together is the biggest subjective point with the 3DS duology. I think they focused and developed the main characters well (Yes, even Athena, she got the shaft in SoJ but DD used her well).
But the secondary and villain characters... not so much. But I think the fact that dissapoints the fans the most, is having a bad villain, AKA "MCU syndrome". We all remembers the last cases of the good games for having a memorable villain that triggers the protagonist or that settled the whole plot into motion. The last villains of DD and SoJ were so forgettable and cliché that they brung the whole game down for me.

I mean, we can all like or dislike Investigations 1. But I'm sure all the people who played it will never forget it, thanks to this guy:

Spoiler: Extraterritorial Rights

 

[TemporalShrew]

The direction of characters' backtories or how some plot points came together is the biggest subjective point with the 3DS duology. I think they focused and developed the main characters well (Yes, even Athena, she got the shaft in SoJ but DD used her well).
But the secondary and villain characters... not so much. But I think the fact that dissapoints the fans the most, is having a bad villain, AKA "MCU syndrome". We all remembers the last cases of the good games for having a memorable villain that triggers the protagonist or that settled the whole plot into motion. The last villains of DD and SoJ were so forgettable and cliché that they brung the whole game down for me.

I recall rather liking DD's last case, personally. But then, I think I've only replayed that game once since it was released, and quite a while ago at that, so maybe present me would disagree with past me.

E: Also, the extraterritorial rights thing is tempting me to make a Danganronpa reference no one will get.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

The direction of characters' backtories or how some plot points came together is the biggest subjective point with the 3DS duology. I think they focused and developed the main characters well (Yes, even Athena, she got the shaft in SoJ but DD used her well).
But the secondary and villain characters... not so much. But I think the fact that dissapoints the fans the most, is having a bad villain, AKA "MCU syndrome". We all remembers the last cases of the good games for having a memorable villain that triggers the protagonist or that settled the whole plot into motion. The last villains of DD and SoJ were so forgettable and cliché that they brung the whole game down for me.

I mean, we can all like or dislike Investigations 1. But I'm sure all the people who played it will never forget it, thanks to this guy:

Spoiler: Extraterritorial Rights

Spoiler: Investigations 1 Bad

Although I'm honestly just kinda meh on the game, I liked case 3, the setup for 4 is good, it's too bad case 5 just didn't know when to end and kinda drags down the whole thing, as I was having fun with it until this point you're bringing. Can't stand the first 2 cases however.
I just wish they wouldn't have kept Athena as this incompetent lawyer that keeps suffering emotional breakdowns midcourt and needing Blackquill to pretty much step up for her to be able to solve anything in SoJ, especially given how that case felt a lot less personal, high stakes nor where the witnesses that mean in contrast to what she saw in DD (or even the 2nd case of SoJ).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

My big issue with Athena is that she feels like a character who should have only been relevant in their specific case. Like Lana, Adrian, Vera and Iris. She doesn't feel like a main character to me, which is a problem when Capcom insists on giving her top billing with Phoenix and Apollo even when she isn't relevant (Like in SOJ)

 

[Flyboy]

The direction of characters' backtories or how some plot points came together is the biggest subjective point with the 3DS duology. I think they focused and developed the main characters well (Yes, even Athena, she got the shaft in SoJ but DD used her well).
But the secondary and villain characters... not so much. But I think the fact that dissapoints the fans the most, is having a bad villain, AKA "MCU syndrome". We all remembers the last cases of the good games for having a memorable villain that triggers the protagonist or that settled the whole plot into motion. The last villains of DD and SoJ were so forgettable and cliché that they brung the whole game down for me.

I mean, we can all like or dislike Investigations 1. But I'm sure all the people who played it will never forget it, thanks to this guy:

Spoiler: Extraterritorial Rights

Personally, I really felt the villains were strong in DD at least as characters, though I do feel the final one could've been stronger despite their far-reaching influence (which I love). Symbolically they're a super interesting villain but unfortunately outside of the really memorable final stretches and breakdown they don't totally have the impact that they could have. Still great though, and the twist was incredibly memorable.

Part of the reason SOJ Case 2 was spectacular was because how in-character everyone felt and how excellent the villain really was. It was also one of the few times the game actually gave us more than "the guy who did it" "the guy who didn't do it" and "the defendant", with a splash of "the recurring characters" in there. I felt that SOJ had very very good moments and even some great characters (Paul Atishon is still a massive highlight) but they really dropped the ball so hard in the second half of that last case. I feel like if they had just split it after the civil trial and then tweaked the final case with better writing it could've really worked, but unfortunately the frustrating thing is that there are a lot of weird misses. to me, at least. I could go into detail, but eh.

And yeah, you can say AAI1 didn't have stakes or felt drawn out or whatever but my God, the moment you realize you're truly facing The Final Villain was incredible. That music cue is burned into my memory as one of my favorite series moments, along with the twist behind a certain ghost from the past.

 

[kirbsmash]

any bad news yet?

 

[TemporalShrew]

any bad news yet?

No worse than we've had. We still only have that one dude claiming no Capcom for now. From what I've read, their source is pretty reliable, but until the rest of the Deconfirm Gang vouch for that claim, we're still pretty hazy.

 

[Wyoming]

any bad news yet?

NoA ambassador source claims it is not Capcom. It was posted by Nazyrus - a former mod in Sabi's discord.

However, he is no longer within the inner circle, and Sabi is not vouching it as of yet as their source has not said that.

Vergeben has yet to comment on Capcom at all.

Limbo is the best way to describe it.

 

[Dukemon102]

I just wish they wouldn't have kept Athena as this incompetent lawyer that keeps suffering emotional breakdowns midcourt and needing Blackquill to pretty much step up for her to be able to solve anything in SoJ, especially given how that case felt a lot less personal, high stakes nor where the witnesses that mean in contrast to what she saw in DD (or even the 2nd case of SoJ).

Yes, I was annoyed by that too. She only had one case in the lead position before. So I suppose they felt like they could pull the "newbie" card with her. But comparing Athena in SoJ with Athena in DD makes the former look like a complete idiot.
That case in general is basically wasted potential because all its elements are rushed and throwed into the mix with little time to develop it. We couldn't even take a look at the crime scene to make everything more relatable. But to be fair... most lawyers have cases like that in real life... (Wow, that must be really boring).

My big issue with Athena is that she feels like a character who should have only been relevant in their specific case. Like Lana, Adrian, Vera and Iris.

I actually feel like Turnabout Academy (My favorite case of DD) gave Athena enough development and charm to stand on her own (Also having Apollo as assistant was great, a nice change of pace). It was a personal case for her and it showed. And then she got backstory in Turnabout for Tomorrow. It's the fault of SoJ for just making her be "there".
What Athena needs is her own game to flesh her more as her own character. The fact that she can read people's emotions has potential. Just like Edgeworth went from well written to the BEST character in the series IMO with the AAI games. I feel Athena needs the same treatment.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Image for if Phoenix is Fighter 5:

View attachment 249111


Image for if Phoenix is not Fighter 5:

View attachment 249112

I’d like to add to this post of mine from last Saturday.

Images if the whole DLC cycle goes by without Phoenix:

 

[Flyboy]

Yes, I was annoyed by that too. She only had one case in the lead position before. So I suppose they felt like they could pull the "newbie" card with her. But comparing Athena in SoJ with Athena in DD makes the former look like a complete idiot.
That case in general is basically wasted potential because all its elements are rushed and throwed into the mix with little time to develop it. We couldn't even take a look at the crime scene to make everything more relatable. But to be fair... most lawyers have cases like that in real life... (Wow, that must be really boring).


I actually feel like Turnabout Academy (My favorite case of DD) gave Athena enough development and charm to stand on her own (Also having Apollo as assistant was great, a nice change of pace). It was a personal case for her and it showed. And then she got backstory in Turnabout for Tomorrow. It's the fault of SoJ for just making her be "there".
What Athena needs is her own game to flesh her more as her own character. The fact that she can read people's emotions has potential. Just like Edgeworth went from well written to the BEST character in the series IMO with the AAI games. I feel Athena needs the same treatment.

You're completely right. They really, really messed up. AA7 being Athena Cykes: Ace Attorney and bringing the series back to more personal and nuanced roots would be such a huge step in the right direction. Turnabout Academy is actually one of my favorite series cases because Athena and apollo had an excellent dynamic and how personal the case was for Athena was so likable and interesting, and the way she defeated the villain by conquering her own fears was awesome.

Spirit of Justice did her so dirty.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Even if the report does turn out to be accurate, I'm pretty sure the next character won't be from a big third-party company like Capcom anyways.

Besides, one year of E3 had shown off for Smash for Wii/3DS, so hype isn't really so much their concern, but simply showcasing the latest character.

That aside, do we know what Shu Takumi is doing? He's been oddly quiet ever since DGS2.

Also also, I'd find it funnily poetic if AA7 revisits the roots, since RE7 did just that (two sevens!) , and it's this thread's supposed "rival".

 

[Sabrewulf238]

So let's assume for a second that the whole Capcom not being fighter pass 5 thing turns out to be true who does that really leave in terms of speculated characters?

I'm not really convinced that we'd get two Square Enix characters in the fighter pass so I'm not sure about Sora. (I mean I'm doubtful of Sora to begin with but that doesn't help)

It really doesn't seem like there's anyone obvious.

 

[SmashSSL]

It really bums me out that the Apollo justice trilogy cast never really got time to shine as well as the Phoenix wright trilogy cast did because of all the callbacks and fanservice.

Dual destinies had a good idea going with Apollos backstory in it, but because he has to share screentime with Athena, Blackquill, Fullbright, Phoenix, Edgeworth and others there's never really time to breathe and give Apollo great moments like Phoenix was able to have. And on top of that Trucy and Klavier were just thrown the wayside even though 4 made them out to be new main characters alongside Apollo.

My big issue with Athena is that she feels like a character who should have only been relevant in their specific case. Like Lana, Adrian, Vera and Iris. She doesn't feel like a main character to me, which is a problem when Capcom insists on giving her top billing with Phoenix and Apollo even when she isn't relevant (Like in SOJ)

200.0% Agree. My issue with Athena is not her backstory, her personality or her incompetence. It's the how the games present her to us. Of course, if she's meant to be a main character, she is being underutilized and needs her own game to be fleshed out, but, why even try to make her a protagonist to begin with? There was no need for her to be a main playable character in the first place. think about it, yes, she is important, but she's not necessary as a playable attorney, she's necessary as a witness, defendant and assistant. She's only playable in filler cases and is kept around for her psychology gimmicks, there's really barely any need for her to even be a lawyer at all (other than the obligatory "prodigy" trope that never had any charm, and, even if it did, its become dull and absurd at this point. Remember when 20 year old prosecutor Edgeworth was supposed to be a "genius"? At least he is actually competent and intelligent, meanwhile we're supposed to believe this 18 year old is both a lawyer and a psychologist because "new playable character")
I think Athena should have been presented as an assistant, that's also a psychology and law student (not a graduate) that has come to make her practices or something, I think that would match her characterization better. We don't need another unbelievable prodigy that's only playable in filler cases, there's no way she'll live up to a main character role's expectations in DD and SoJ because the attempt to give her that role is too ambitious, especially when she has to share it with the other two, that's why she's underwhelming.

Honestly, if Capcom wasn't afraid of low sales, this "trilogy" should have been about Apollo. I'm fine with Phoenix getting his career back and being playable in some cases (especially since some of his cases are still very important for the plot), but he should have stayed in the mentor role, not this "technically main protagonist" spot. I mean, Phoenix's awful change of characterization and loss of development really goes to show he really shouldn't have taken the spotlight back.

Apollo, Trucy and the rest of that cast was meant to be the focus, but they were limited by having to share the spotlight with fanservice characters and Apollo being playable in relatively few cases, giving him those filler cases (like 5-3, 5-6, or 6-4, with the logical tweaks to make it work) would have gave the "trilogy" a clearer focus, imo.

 

[Flyboy]

I mean, I like that Athena was playable because I like Athena and I liked playing as her. She was handled very well in Dual Destinies. It's SOJ that really screwed it up. they didn't even let her be part of the final case for...some reason.

 

[Sigran101]

Even though I've been an ace attorney fan for years, I didn't want it to get a playable character for the longest time. I swear, if I ended up jumping on the Phoenix train literally a week before he gets revealed, I must be the luckiest smadh fan ever.

 

[Hinata]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

To quote myself: This is the third time Sabi has talked about someone who mentioned Capcom, yet refused to comment on the company themselves.

I just wanna know if I should give up hope, man...

 

[StormC]

Even though I've been an ace attorney fan for years, I didn't want it to get a playable character for the longest time. I swear, if I ended up jumping on the Phoenix train literally a week before he gets revealed, I must be the luckiest smadh fan ever.

This is basically my boat.

If Capcom is also "out," I feel like one of these insiders is wrong. It's simply too many big names written off. But I don't really know for sure.

We'll see in a week, I guess.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

So let's assume for a second that the whole Capcom not being fighter pass 5 thing turns out to be true who does that really leave in terms of speculated characters?

I'm not really convinced that we'd get two Square Enix characters in the fighter pass so I'm not sure about Sora. (I mean I'm doubtful of Sora to begin with but that doesn't help)

It really doesn't seem like there's anyone obvious.

If you take away double dipping on those that are already in the game and supposing we'll at least close this pass with 3rd parties, I guess ArcSys is still on the run (unlikely as it'd be to get another niche fighting game rep to close things up). I suppose Koei isn't off the table either, but I wouldn't count on a Dynasty Warriors or DoA rep if Hayabusa aint in (especially the latter after Mais situation), there's a few other JP devs that haven't been given the axe, but I think they start to be too niche to speculate about too seriously (not like you couldn't say that already about the likes of NIS and Falcom). Afterwards I guess it comes down to western devs, but I'm not so well versed to comment on those outside of Ubisoft being apparently axed and me not believing EA could happen given how vitriolic their relationship seems with Nintendo every generation.

Even if the report does turn out to be accurate, I'm pretty sure the next character won't be from a big third-party company like Capcom anyways.

Besides, one year of E3 had shown off for Smash for Wii/3DS, so hype isn't really so much their concern, but simply showcasing the latest character.

That aside, do we know what Shu Takumi is doing? He's been oddly quiet ever since DGS2.

Also also, I'd find it funnily poetic if AA7 revisits the roots, since RE7 did just that (two sevens!) , and it's this thread's supposed "rival".

I got no idea on Takumi, but to be fair on that E3, the focus on Smash 4 wasn't as 3rd party heavy as this DLC has been so far (at that point anyhow, we did get later on), and I think Pac-Man was revealed later on that day through a press event or something?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

To quote myself: This is the third time Sabi has talked about someone who mentioned Capcom, yet refused to comment on the company themselves.

I just wanna know if I should give up hope, man...

This is sure being quite a rollercoaster alright.

 

[SmashSSL]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

To quote myself: This is the third time Sabi has talked about someone who mentioned Capcom, yet refused to comment on the company themselves.

I just wanna know if I should give up hope, man...

Looks like Sabis really refusing to deconfirm Capcom. They're not even saying anything among the lines of "hey guys theres this rumor, im not sure about it, I'll investigate, might be true", like with previous leaks and rumors, they're just straight up saying "I never heard nor said Capcom is out wth where did this come from, dont quote me on that when it's eventually wrong" ... well, not exactly, but you get the point. Im not sure.

 

[Dukemon102]

Looks like Sabis really refusing to deconfirm Capcom. They're not even saying anything among the lines of "hey guys theres this rumor, im not sure about it, I'll investigate, might be true", like with previous leaks and rumors, they're just straight up saying "I never heard nor said Capcom is out wth where did this come from, dont quote me on that when it's eventually wrong" ... well, not exactly, but you get the point. Im not sure.

And Vergeben could appear at any moment in GameFAQs and kill our hopes or dreams. But he hasn't. The last weekend he was on a roll killing companies.
But conveniently he hasn't talked about Capcom at all after killing Ubisoft, NIS, Falcom. Namco, Level-5.... and now Sabi doesn't want to be associated to this Capcom deconfirmation claim at all cost. Both leakers are really being defensive about talking about Capcom.
It's all coming cornering together.

Unless we go with SEGA or Square Enix again. But I don't think that's likely at all. Specially when Capcom has so many famous IPs that would sell DLC like hot pancakes.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Don't want to get my hopes up, but... if Vergeben disconfirms any other company that isn't Capcom before TGA, I'll start getting more hyped than I should.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Sabi is hanging Capcom in front of our faces lol

 

[Sigran101]

Imo FP5 is Travis Touchdown, Sora, or Phoenix.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Unless we go with SEGA or Square Enix again. But I don't think that's likely at all. Specially when Capcom has so many famous IPs that would sell DLC like hot pancakes.

Hey now, Sega and SE still have some fairly respectable IPs they could push for if they wanted but I agree Capcoms is generally cooler and likelier to be F5.

 

[SmashSSL]

I am literally uncapable of hyping responsibly guys
If neither Verg nor Sabi confirm the deconfirmation in the next 3 days...

I'll go insane with hype.

 

[Flyboy]

I'm definitely erring on the side of caution. Be prepared for a deconfirmation at any time and to believe that what the ambassador said is true. It's definitely interesting how coy Sabi and Verge are being, but remember that absence is not confirmation of anything. Still...this feels like a possible turnabout...

Imo FP5 is Travis Touchdown, Sora, or Phoenix.

I'm sure it's potentially plenty of others but these being the top three is nothing but good news for me.

 

[StormC]

I feel pretty strongly that they won't double dip companies on the same Pass, but I've been wrong before.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

200.0% Agree. My issue with Athena is not her backstory, her personality or her incompetence. It's the how the games present her to us. Of course, if she's meant to be a main character, she is being underutilized and needs her own game to be fleshed out, but, why even try to make her a protagonist to begin with? There was no need for her to be a main playable character in the first place. think about it, yes, she is important, but she's not necessary as a playable attorney, she's necessary as a witness, defendant and assistant. She's only playable in filler cases and is kept around for her psychology gimmicks, there's really barely any need for her to even be a lawyer at all (other than the obligatory "prodigy" trope that never had any charm, and, even if it did, its become dull and absurd at this point. Remember when 20 year old prosecutor Edgeworth was supposed to be a "genius"? At least he is actually competent and intelligent, meanwhile we're supposed to believe this 18 year old is both a lawyer and a psychologist because "new playable character")
I think Athena should have been presented as an assistant, that's also a psychology and law student (not a graduate) that has come to make her practices or something, I think that would match her characterization better. We don't need another unbelievable prodigy that's only playable in filler cases, there's no way she'll live up to a main character role's expectations in DD and SoJ because the attempt to give her that role is too ambitious, especially when she has to share it with the other two, that's why she's underwhelming.

Honestly, if Capcom wasn't afraid of low sales, this "trilogy" should have been about Apollo. I'm fine with Phoenix getting his career back and being playable in some cases (especially since some of his cases are still very important for the plot), but he should have stayed in the mentor role, not this "technically main protagonist" spot. I mean, Phoenix's awful change of characterization and loss of development really goes to show he really shouldn't have taken the spotlight back.

Apollo, Trucy and the rest of that cast was meant to be the focus, but they were limited by having to share the spotlight with fanservice characters and Apollo being playable in relatively few cases, giving him those filler cases (like 5-3, 5-6, or 6-4, with the logical tweaks to make it work) would have gave the "trilogy" a clearer focus, imo.

Personally if I could rewrite Dual destinies i would make it so Athena was introduced later in the story, giving us more time with Apollo and Trucy's dynamic, kept Hobo Nick around a little longer and actually introduced clay to the audience.

Maybe have it like:
Case 1: Apollo with Clay at the assistant side to justify the tutorial

Case 2:Apollo with Trucy

Case 3: Apollo with Clay

Case 4: Apollo with Trucy (First half) Apollo and Athena (Second half)

Case 5: Apollo and Athena

Something like that

 

[Sigran101]

Someone said earlier that Verg posted it's not Capcom or Sora, but the post got deleted. Was this backed up by anything?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Meanwhile, some info that's actually worthwhile has been leaked by the most unlikely source:

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

10 new games and projects at the VGAs. Chew on that for a bit...

 

[Hinata]

Someone said earlier that Verg posted it's not Capcom or Sora, but the post got deleted. Was this backed up by anything?

Nope. Never found the post, or any indication Verge had deleted anything.

 

[Dukemon102]

Someone said earlier that Verg posted it's not Capcom or Sora, but the post got deleted. Was this backed up by anything?

Only Vergeben can delete his own posts. Take that information as you wish.

 

[SNEKeater]

That could be a fake Verge account, I think someone said that was happened

 

[3BitSaurus]

Someone said earlier that Verg posted it's not Capcom or Sora, but the post got deleted. Was this backed up by anything?

There are fake Vergeben accounts that pop up from time to time, like "Vergenben". They get reported and deleted, something Vergeben himself acknowledged recently. I'm thinking this was the case here.

If not...I'm inclined to agree with Dukemon102 here.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Meanwhile, some bloke who isn't even on Sabi's server claimed that no one in Bethesda would be FP5. She laughed him off.

Beware, bait is just going to increase in the next few days.

Spoiler

 

[Dukemon102]

Meanwhile, some info that's actually worthwhile has been leaked by the most unlikely source:

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

10 new games and projects at the VGAs. Chew on that for a bit...

I hope those come with actual footage instead of boring drawn out cinematic trailers of nothingness.

Because I will need coffee for that night. I might need to order some from Godot to stay awake like last year.