TAKE THAT! Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney smashes the prosecution!

[Desert Croc]

I just want to say that AJ’s pursuit theme is by far my favourite in the series. I also liked Klavier as the prosecutor. There is a lot to like about the game.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I don't understand that criticism - why would Phoenix's character be handled the same way, given that Apollo takes place years later and given how much he's gone through? I'd have been significantly more annoyed if they didn't alter his character.

Spoiler: general series spoilers

when you decide to change careers and become a lawyer for the sake of helping someone you care for over their shady background over forged evidence and manipulated cases to get their guilty veredict, and particularly after cases like 1-5, 2-2 and 2-4, where Phoenix experiences first hand the dangers of forgery, it feels all sorts of wrong to have the dude both fall so easily on such a shady piece of evidence he got out of nowhere before the trial and also just fabricate it like that, no matter how skewed things where against him, during his trial as a defendant.

I guess it boils down it's one thing for your character to change, and another to have your moral principles twisted like that given the background of the previous games.

 

[Krankees]

I just want to say that AJ’s pursuit theme is by far my favourite in the series. I also liked Klavier as the prosecutor. There is a lot to like about the game.

Apollo's objection theme is probably one of my favorites.

 

[Flyboy]

I don't understand that criticism - why would Phoenix's character be handled the same way, given that Apollo takes place years later and given how much he's gone through? I'd have been significantly more annoyed if they didn't alter his character.

The thing is, the fandom at the time hated change and called literally any female character who wasn't Maya a "Maya clone" so y'know. People didn't take it well.

They were wrong imo, I love AJ a lot but on release it was a BIG change that a nasty part of the fandom didn't like.

 

[Caladuz]

• How Phoenix character was handled and changed (case 1 has one particularly iffy segment with him, case 4 to a lesser extent)

I'll be the first to admit I hated it the first time I tried it. But I really warmed up to the idea the second time through. I could see how Phoenix's character could progress that way given certain events. Shows he isn't infallible either, he has his faults, which is always a good thing.

• Apollo being a dull character in contrast to Phoenix

I can kind of see this in his own game but I think DD really allowed Apollo to come into his own. It is my favorite iteration of him.

• The games message on how the JP court system kinda sucks not being all that subtle

Don't really mind this tbh, AA was never really subtle with anything. A lot of the fun comes from it being over the top.

• The whole magician subplot being kind of a mess

This I can wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Another hot take:

Apollo justice did the dark age of the law plot better than dual destinies did. Because in Apollo justice it was a show don't tell kind of story, you were supposed to get the impression that the dark age of the law was happening on your own without the characters having to mention it like a buzzword.

The thing is, the fandom at the time hated change and called literally any female character who wasn't Maya a "Maya clone" so y'know. People didn't take it well.

They were wrong imo, I love AJ a lot but on release it was a BIG change that a nasty part of the fandom didn't like.

It's because of that stigma that for about a decade they gave Trucy the shaft...

 

[TemporalShrew]

you were supposed to get the impression that the dark age of the law was happening on your own without the characters having to mention it like a buzzword.

In fairness, I think the point of it being so overt in DD was that it had progressed to the point of being impossible to ignore. The consequence of that might not have been perfect, but I do see why they would make that choice.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Another hot take:

Apollo justice did the dark age of the law plot better than dual destinies did. Because in Apollo justice it was a show don't tell kind of story, you were supposed to get the impression that the dark age of the law was happening on your own without the characters having to mention it like a buzzword.

lets be real, it'd be hard to do the whole "dark age of the law" thing worse than DD, it feels more like a word to scare children than some real period that happened in the series lore, and the justification that it happened just due to the badge loss of 2 lawyers is nothing short of absurd.

 

[THE SLOTH]

Been a hot minute since I played AJ. My main gripes with it were Wright’s character and Apollo’s lack of one, and the disappointing finale of the last case, but besides that? A solid entry, I really liked Trucy and some of the side characters, but not really my favorite. I kinda wish the magician sub-plot was less messy, and maybe replace 4-2 or 4-3 with 6-2. Not gonna go into details on that here since I know plenty people are still working through the series but that case feels like a scrapped half of the final case for AJ they made its own thing later.

 

[Dukemon102]

Turnabout Serenade really convinced me that the Dark Age of the Law was happening more than Turnabout Academy. I like the latter case more but in Serenade you know things are wrong. The premise of the trial is already ridiculous and corrupted since the beginning.
Too bad the gameplay of the case is... ugh
I don't want to remember it.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I'll say this, I didn't dislike AJ anywhere near as much as I thought I would originally (I don't quite understand the hatred I held for it before I even knew anything about it, I guess the change of character might have done that in a younger, dumber me?), and I'd say I enjoy it as much as the first Investigations game in the end, flawed, not something I'd ever want to revisit, but not something I regret experiencing. I'd probably even say it's better than any of the 3DS games I've tried out.

Turnabout Serenade really convinced me that the Dark Age of the Law was happening more than Turnabout Academy. I like the latter case more but in Serenade you know things are wrong. The premise of the trial is already ridiculous and corrupted since the beginning.
Too bad the gameplay of the case is... ugh
I don't want to remember it.

what, don't you love analizing the same video and audio tape over and over again?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Been a hot minute since I played AJ. My main gripes with it were Wright’s character and Apollo’s lack of one, and the disappointing finale of the last case, but besides that? A solid entry, I really liked Trucy and some of the side characters, but not really my favorite. I kinda wish the magician sub-plot was less messy, and maybe replace 4-2 or 4-3 with 6-2. Not gonna go into details on that here since I know plenty people are still working through the series but that case feels like a scrapped half of the final case for AJ they made its own thing later.

6-2 should have been the last case of Apollo's trilogy instead of whatever the kingdom of kurain mess was. It tied this trilogy together better.

 

[culumon]

lets be real, it'd be hard to do the whole "dark age of the law" thing worse than DD, it feels more like a word to scare children than some real period that happened in the series lore, and the justification that it happened just due to the badge loss of 2 lawyers is nothing short of absurd.

Spoiler: Whole series

Even prior to the seven year timeskip, you have a media mogul who has the police and courts in his pockets, a prosecutor who forged evidence for most of his 40 year old career, a chief of police who forged evidence and murdered to keep his reputation, and a former chief prosecutor who, again, forged evidence and murdered for his own ends. The notion that "the dark age of the law" was in any way a new thing was such bullcrap. Fighting corruption in the legal system has been, arguably, the main theme of the series since day one. Dual Destinies' take on it was so hollow compared to its predecessors it was embarrassing.

 

[Wyoming]

AJ is a victim of the development war between Takumi and Capcom. Shu had something in store, but Capcom meddled to the point Phoenix had to be the star despite limited playable time.

Apollo felt like a satellite rather than a character on his own. Phoenix just used him for everything. Every plot point didn't include him except the final plot device which hasn't even been used as of yet.

I liked him in DD and especially SoJ, though.

 

[Flyboy]

I actually really liked it in DD, especially because when you consider AJ:

Spoiler: Massive AJ and AAI1 and 2 and DD spoilers

The fact that Phoenix Wright got disbarred did already send the public's opinion spiraling but it wasn't until he basically bent the courts to get Kristoph convicted using the Jurist System that it kicked into higher gear. Public opinion slowly came around on Phoenix himself, but what he did was basically the last straw - a necessary evil that caused equal harm and good. The buzzword for it in DD might've been a bit over the top, but the fact that Kristoph Gavin won in the end is one of the most daring things they did with the series outside of Hobo Phoenix himself and I absolutely love it for that.

I can't compare what game did what better because to me you can very clearly chart everything up until SOJ as a pretty logical, if somewhat tonally messy, progression.

I've always viewed the Dark Age of the Law as a convenient name for something upheld by four "horsemen" - Blaise Debeste, Aristotle Means, Kristoph Gavin, and The Phantom. These four either caused it, upheld it, enforced it into a new generation, or embodied it. The Dark Age was something that built and built and you really see that in the Investigations games especially and it was DD where it truly came to a head thanks to the events of AJ. It was like an explosion.

AAI2 really helps connect the entire series to DD from a tonal perspective. I loved DD when it came out but playing AAI2 only made the lore stronger. I highly recommend everyone give it a shot with fresh eyes.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Seeing people criticize the sequel trilogy makes me feel so vindicated. I always had my complains about them but I could never really say anything because when they were new the fandom trashed any negative opinions towards the 3DS games.

 

[Dukemon102]

Just finished the last case of Trials and Tribulations. What a ride that was! Time to start Apollo. I hope it's as good as the first 3!

A little suggestion. If you want to play the series chronologically and take a break from the same gameplay. I would play the Investigations games first. Those happen a few months after T&T. Apollo has a 7 year time skip.
First Investigations game is fine IMO. I liked it (You said you liked big scale and loooong cases. Oh boy. There is one bad guy waiting for you.).
But the second one is a masterpiece. My favorite AA game and an absolute must if you are a fan of the series.

 

[Sonsa]

Without giving too much away, I think Apollo Justice is one of the coolest in the series, maybe my 2nd favorite overall! The music, look of it, easily best Case 1 in the series by far, and final moments that are still very chilling! It has this great melancholy tone emphasized by a lonely lack of returning characters - but it also felt like a fresh start! I still miss old characters when playing that game, but know they're likely active, just not on Apollo's radar and in his point of view.

While I mostly like Phoenix there, he really is a bit off, I understand 7 years is a long time, but for Phoenix to say something like "Ah, what twisted webs we weave" or something is too far to me, I feel like the old Phoenix would hear that and think something like "Geez, when did I walk into a poetry slam...?" But Case 4 shows my favorite version of Wright ever too, so hey, balances out I guess!

I love Apollo Justice, but I would also recommend playing Investigations first after the trilogy! Will get you used to Phoenix not being around as much, used to a new perspective, see some stuff that happened around the 3rd game, before jumping into something that feels new and "I'm back!", cool mix! Plus, it's still a fun game with nice music, looks, and mystey!

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Okay, now that shopping's given me time to rationalize.

You know, thinking about it earlier, if the next character is a first-party, the VGAs wouldn't make much sense for them anyway unless they're super big. Although being left out of that is pure coincidence, seeing how the Smash team operates, and they're not afraid to show off a more esoteric character regardless of what people think of them.

On the other hand, Jon's statement was a question. If there isn't a reveal there, why ask?

I need to watch the full event, just to make sure nothing happens there, maybe.

That said...

Spoiler

There was a problem fetching the tweet

At least she's taking it well.

On the topic of Investigations 2, someone should provide a link to a patched English file, if that's allowed.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Honestly, thinking about DD just kinda depresses me. When I just finished it, I was absolutely in love with it and would even go as far as saying it was my 2nd favorite in the franchise and the first game to capture the originals magic feeling I had when I first experienced it. But as the months went by, the more I thought about it, the more I found it to be kind of a big problematic mess. I didn't like any of the main cases, the overarching plot felt super half baked and just kind of meaningless (you suck dark age of the law), while I think Athena is fun, I don't think she added much of value in gameplay or lore, and most of the secondary characters grow the be all the more annoying the moment I remember them. I think it's my go to game for why I consider digestion periods important before handling final thoughts on a piece of media, as impressions of something as you just finish it can be all sorts of skewed, for better or worse. What was once great became good, then okay, and nowadays it's meh at best, pretty bad at worst.

AJ is a victim of the development war between Takumi and Capcom. Shu had something in store, but Capcom meddled to the point Phoenix had to be the star despite limited playable time.

Apollo felt like a satellite rather than a character on his own. Phoenix just used him for everything. Every plot point didn't include him except the final plot device which hasn't even been used as of yet.

I liked him in DD and especially SoJ, though.

I feel this is a good summary to how I feel about AJ honestly, a shame really.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

When a proverbial stepchild like Nero managed to get proper justice, I'm sure Apollo will get that someday as well (and Nero was seen as lesser than Dante).

In the meantime, if even Jon indeed isn't sure about there being Smash-related stuff at the VGAs, it could be the most well-guarded secret since Joker. Geoff probably be like:

Spoiler

 

[TemporalShrew]

it could be the most well-guarded secret since Joker.

And if this is the case, I'm just going to assume that TGAs are really good at keeping info from leaking.

 

[Krankees]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is kind of interesting. If this source really does know who FP5 is, then who would make them question if they were to be revealed at the game awards.

 

[JustMyself13]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is kind of interesting. If this source really does know who FP5 is, then who would make them question if they were to be revealed at the game awards.

I’m not really sure this really means much, as the source probably only knows the name of the character and nothing else, which easily explains not knowing the reveal date.

 

[TemporalShrew]

I’m not really sure this really means much, as the source probably only knows the name of the character and nothing else, which easily explains not knowing the reveal date.

My question on that is why Sabi would need to cross-check on whether Sora was in, if they already had confirmation on who it was from their most reliable source, unless they're also just deconfirming characters.

 

[JustMyself13]

My question on that is why Sabi would need to cross-check on whether Sora was in, if they already had confirmation on who it was from their most reliable source, unless they're also just deconfirming characters.

I believe Sabi has gone on record saying that their source knows the character, but hasn’t revealed it to her or anyone else yet due to it being too early and therefore too risky.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

When a proverbial stepchild like Nero managed to get proper justice, I'm sure Apollo will get that someday as well (and Nero was seen as lesser than Dante).

we're talking about the character receptions to their respective series right? Because for a moment I thought you were implying there was a Nero rumor going around for Smash or something.

 

[TemporalShrew]

I believe Sabi has gone on record saying that their source knows the character, but hasn’t revealed it to her or anyone else yet due to it being too early and therefore too risky.

Too early? I'm definitely concerned for the odds of a reveal at TGAs if 5-6 days before the reveal is still "too early."

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

we're talking about the character receptions to their respective series right? Because for a moment I thought you were implying there was a Nero rumor going around for Smash or something.

Yes, sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, this is definitely an interesting curveball. I never actually expected the end of this week to end like this, and getting yet another deconfirmation on top of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4

Too early? I'm definitely concerned for the odds of a reveal at TGAs if 5-6 days before the reveal is still "too early."

I think they would mean too early in the sense that they DON'T want to be sniped by the ninjas and would rather wait until the right time when a big event starts, I guess.

 

[Krankees]

I’m not really sure this really means much, as the source probably only knows the name of the character and nothing else, which easily explains not knowing the reveal date.

I was just thinking, if it was popular character like Sora or Kratos, then it would be obvious for it to be at the game awards.

 

[Sigran101]

A little suggestion. If you want to play the series chronologically and take a break from the same gameplay. I would play the Investigations games first. Those happen a few months after T&T. Apollo has a 7 year time skip.
First Investigations game is fine IMO. I liked it (You said you liked big scale and loooong cases. Oh boy. There is one bad guy waiting for you.).
But the second one is a masterpiece. My favorite AA game and an absolute must if you are a fan of the series.

Dual destinies, Spirit of Justice, and Investigations 1 are on my Christmas list. Unfortunately I couldn't find a way to play investigations 2 in english. How is that done?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I was just thinking, if it was popular character like Sora or Kratos, then it would be obvious for it to be at the game awards.

And Sora's knocked out already for the FP5 spot, so my assumption of the character being a relative underdog is only getting stronger.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

Dual destinies, Spirit of Justice, and Investigations 1 are on my Christmas list. Unfortunately I couldn't find a way to play investigations 2 in english. How is that done?

you'll need to use the fan translation patch for that on a DS emulator. I don't want to talk much further about it as I'm not sure if smashboards ToS allow the distribution of illicit software like that or not.

And Sora's knocked out already for the FP5 spot, so my assumption of the character being a relative underdog is only getting stronger.

literal underdog

 

[TemporalShrew]

you'll need to use the fan translation patch for that on a DS emulator. I don't want to talk much further about it as I'm not sure if smashboards ToS allow the distribution of illicit software like that or not.

literal underdog

I'll be honest, as soon as Phoenix is in, I'm all-in on Amaterasu, because sadly I never seem to want the Capcom frontrunner.

 

[THE SLOTH]

literal underdog

underdog... under... dog... wait a minute. You couldn't possibly mean...!?

 

[JustMyself13]

I was just thinking, if it was popular character like Sora or Kratos, then it would be obvious for it to be at the game awards.

Mia would be proud of this out-of-the-box thinking, I think you have a good point here. Even if you were told only a name, if the character was incredibly popular or hype-worthy, you could easily guess that they would be revealed at TGA. If it were a character like Phoenix, there would be room for doubt.

 

[ThunderSageNun]

I believe I have said before that I like Phoenix, Ammy and Dante about the same, if somehow all 3 could be in the game the better, but I'll be content with just one of them getting in for now. I'll say if we finish the whole DLC without a single new Capcom character, I'll be pretty shocked.

 

[Arctiq]

Mia would be proud of this out-of-the-box thinking, I think you have a good point here. Even if you were told only a name, if the character was incredibly popular or hype-worthy, you could easily guess that they would be revealed at TGA. If it were a character like Phoenix, there would be room for doubt.

Kinda strange that the current frontrunners (Phoenix, Travis and Sol) all fit that bill. Do we think there is going to be a direct after the TGA's?

 

[Krankees]

Kinda strange that the current frontrunners (Phoenix, Travis and Sol) all fit that bill. Do we think there is going to be a direct after the TGA's?

It's not impossible but I doubt it.

 

[THE SLOTH]

Kinda strange that the current frontrunners (Phoenix, Travis and Sol) all fit that bill. Do we think there is going to be a direct after the TGA's?

I don't expect a Direct until at least the first/second week of January, but I'd gladly be proven wrong.