Super Smash Bros. Infinite Project (Finally Finished!???)

[Champion of Hyrule]

Then here's an alternative to just letting such stuff fly: Allow the community to vote to veto submissions before they go through. That way, you don't have stupid stuff like that going through in the first place.

If they don’t like an idea they can just not vote for it

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Then here's an alternative to just letting such stuff fly: Allow the community to vote to veto submissions before they go through. That way, you don't have stupid stuff like that going through in the first place.

The "veto" option would really just be... give valid reasons not to vote.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Then here's an alternative to just letting such stuff fly: Allow the community to vote to veto submissions before they go through. That way, you don't have stupid stuff like that going through in the first place.

Having ran this thread for the better part of the year, I’ve found that bad submissions tends to veto themselves out. Also, That sort of style is something I considered but considering how sensitive people can be; I don’t want to create bad blood between the community. My goal is to increase our members; not chase people away.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Ugh, no one listens to me..
That's Harsh.

They don't know that I work on this thread.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Could you guys stop Talking over non-sense stuff?
We're got a lot of work to do and you guys are basically complaining!

Discourse is an essential part of threads like this. Don’t dismiss every debate that happens on here.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

The "veto" option would really just be... give valid reasons not to vote.

Alright, so then why was this whole argument necessary in the first place? I gave a valid reason that characters like Bob shouldn't be included.

Okay ye “shantae, banjo and goemon” thing wasn’t brought up because

I think adding characters that push the boundaries of what smash has, is, and can include isn’t disrespectful at all to the legacy of the series

Pushing boundaries is one thing. ****posting in thread with submissions that are literally there for meme sakes should be examined case by case.

Even the meme-iest characters Smash actually has are characters that, in retrospect, make sense from a business perspective. And note, all of them are also first-party characters, not third-party ones.

Having ran this thread for the better part of the year, I’ve found that bad submissions tends to veto themselves out. Also, That sort of style is something I considered but considering how sensitive people can be; I don’t want to create bad blood between the community. My goal is to increase our members; not chase people away.

I can understand that sentiment to a degree, but at the same time, and as cruel as this sounds - we shouldn't have to have a page-wide discussion about why a submission shouldn't be allowed with one or two people trying to be some voice of reason, so people who don't like a submission should be able to just make a cold statement with a veto and leave it at that. Take this from someone who's extremely sensitive.

 

[ivanlerma]

Venus, i know your in charge of the project but i honestly find your idea of ignoring some of our suggestions for characters who are more "hype induced?" to be a little unfair.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don’t think Bob is anywhere close near winning this so this whole debate is only souring the mood and creativity of the thread and exposing people as weirdly combatative and gatekeepy in the process.

Speaking of Gatekeepy, I know exactly who I will submit for the Fire Emblem prompt after the spirit of this debate

 

[chocolatejr9]

You’re taking bob from tekken way too seriously lmao

But it's Bob, why WOULDN'T we take him seriously?

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Great, now everyone sees us Quarreling for some Reason that cannot be explained.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm gonna be frank here, and as far as realism goes: Crazy Dave and Grovyle/Celebi are already iffy enough, especially as base game picks. For the love of God, leave those weird submissions for actual fangames.

I realize this is a community project and all that, but if we're wanting to be even a little realistic, picks like Arcuid, Merkava, and Bob just don't cut it.

I urge you to vote Sol, Iori, Geese, Heihachi, Nightmare, Noel, Sophitia, or Ragna.

I don't think this is a valid reason - all you discussed was "realism", "joke picks", and negotiations - the negotiations are the only argument that seems valid here, but even then this is a series that foregoed extremely iconic characters like Master Chief, Clippy, Marcus Fenix, and any of many Age of Empires characters for Banjo.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I don't think this is a valid reason - all you discussed was "realism", "joke picks", and negotiations - the negotiations are the only argument that seems valid here, but even then this is a series that foregoed extremely iconic characters like Master Chief, Clippy, Marcus Fenix, and any of many Age of Empires characters for Banjo.

Dude, adding Age of Empires characters could cause backlash, because they're based on Real Life events!
But Master Chief, Marcus Fenix from Epic Games and Clippy can be passed!

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I don't think this is a valid reason - all you discussed was "realism", "joke picks", and negotiations - the negotiations are the only argument that seems valid here, but even then this is a series that foregoed extremely iconic characters like Master Chief, Clippy, Marcus Fenix, and any of many Age of Empires characters for Banjo.

Yes, because the Narrator that says "wololo", sheep with a neckerchief, and Teutonic Knights are the characters who should've gotten in over the one character you listed that's actually shown up on a Nintendo console in his own series. And again, you seem to be ignoring the fact Banjo was:

A. A Nintendo character up until 2003, who's games were originally exclusive to the Nintendo 64.
B. A popular Smash request for years.
C. Still had games on Nintendo systems even post Microsoft aquisition. The quality of those games are irrelevant.

As for Clippy? He's literally not even a video game character? He's Microsoft Word's assistant? Any credibility you have saying that my argument is invalid you just lost by saying we should put in a character from a non-gaming program used by people in their 40s at a call center designed to sell you DirectTV.

 

[Krookodilian]

As someone who can see the votes, bob is absolutely nowhere near winning. Whenever large amounts of people vote, the “meme” submissions, or whatever you wanna call it, get naturally filtered out. Crazy Dave and Grovyle & Celebi are weird picks, but Mystery Dungeon and Plants Vs. Zombies have merits to them, and they weren’t submitted as memes.

Stuff like Buck Bumble gets voted in for minor content, which generally has a lower turnout, so if anything, the moral here is to vote more for minor content if you care this badly about “meme” content getting in.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Yes, because the Narrator that says "wololo", sheep with a neckerchief, and Teutonic Knights are the characters who should've gotten in over the one character you listed that's actually shown up on a Nintendo console in his own series. And again, you seem to be ignoring the fact Banjo was:

A. A Nintendo character up until 2003, who's games were originally exclusive to the Nintendo 64.
B. A popular Smash request for years.
C. Still had games on Nintendo systems even post Microsoft aquisition. The quality of those games are irrelevant.

As for Clippy? He's literally not even a video game character? He's Microsoft Word's assistant? Any credibility you have saying that my argument is invalid you just lost by saying we should put in a character from a non-gaming program used by people in their 40s at a call center designed to sell you DirectTV.

I don't judge Smash as a "Nintendo game", I consider the Nintendo connection completely irrelevant - it has been since Snake really, but Joker solidified it.

Also, if WFT is a game character, so is Clippy. Clippy doesn't appear in the "game" part of Windows, but WFT doesn't appear in the "game" part of Wii Fit either. In fact the only content other than music that represents Wii Fit's game element is WFT's Up B - that's it, everything else represents the yoga exercises.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Third party content is a different beast than Nintendo stuff. If you're going to bother with licensing rights for a Tekken character, you should be shooting for a character people actual give a **** about. And I've literally never heard or seen anyone who said "yeah my favorite Tekken guy is the fatass American stereotype."

I don't think Yoshimitsu should be top of the chain either but at least he has iconic status being in literally every Tekken and most Soul Calibur games.

I submitted Yoshimitsu not because he’s the top dog in Tekken, but because he has that combination of Tekken appearances while also being a bridge to SoulCalibur. I didn’t want to submit a full SoulCalibur character since we already had two so I picked an angle no one other than Yoshimitsu could cover.

Which is also an aspect of this debate: If we only went for the most obvious picks, then there would only be five submissions per round. With how many users we have that send in their submissions, you can’t always get the top of the chain. If the obligatory picks are taken, you gotta get creative. Not to say that Bob is the only logical pick after having submitted ten but I’d say the discussion is very stupid if it’s very specifically about Tekken Bob instead of the general dichotomy of creativity vs the obvious, iconic picks.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I don't judge Smash as a "Nintendo game", I consider the Nintendo connection completely irrelevant - it has been since Snake really, but Joker solidified it.

Also, if WFT is a game character, so is Clippy. Clippy doesn't appear in the "game" part of Windows, but WFT doesn't appear in the "game" part of Wii Fit either. In fact the only content other than music that represents Wii Fit's game element is WFT's Up B - that's it, everything else represents the yoga exercises.

I don't think that comparison works, given Wii Fit itself is a video game...

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don't think that comparison works, given Wii Fit itself is a video game...

Wii Fit isn't a video game though - it is an application with game elements released on a video game console.

Anyway, Clippy is completely irrelevant to this discussion - I was simply naming him as an example that MS' back catalog has infinitely more iconic characters than Banjo.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I don't judge Smash as a "Nintendo game", I consider the Nintendo connection completely irrelevant.

Also, if WFT is a game character, so is Clippy. Clippy doesn't appear in the "game" part of Windows, but WFT doesn't appear in the "game" part of Wii Fit either. In fact the only content other than music that represents Wii Fit's game element is WFT's Up B - that's it, everything else represents the yoga exercises.

So explain to me then how every fighter in Smash has had a game they appear in having been released on a Nintendo console? Why were Chief and Marcus Fenix passed over then for Steve and Banjo, who had games released on a Nintendo system?

Wii Fit is a video game on a video game disk. Wii Fit Trainer does not appear until the disk has been inserted. That makes her a video game character in the same way Biff from ARMS is. Being an NPC doesn't disqualify you from that, because if it did, Ganondorf shouldn't have been in Melee, because he wasn't playable before that point!

What are you going on about as a "game" part of Windows? Solitaire? Because that's completely a different program, nay, different type of code than the OS that is Windows. Sorry friend, but you don't have a leg, or even piece of paper, to stand on in this instance.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

You know what!?
Stop doing a Large-thread size Quarrel or I will do everything myself

 

[Commander_Alph]

Wii Fit isn't a video game though - it is an application with game elements released on a video game console.

Anyway, Clippy is completely irrelevant to this discussion - I was simply naming him as an example that MS' back catalog has infinitely more iconic characters than Banjo.

At least it's has more activity than lets say typing? Clippy itself is literally an obsolete mascot would you really expect Microsoft to just remember that thing out of the blue.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

So explain to me then how every fighter in Smash has had a game they appear in having been released on a Nintendo console? Why were Chief and Marcus Fenix passed over then for Steve and Banjo, who had games released on a Nintendo system?

Wii Fit is a video game on a video game disk. Wii Fit Trainer does not appear until the disk has been inserted. That makes her a video game character in the same way Biff from ARMS is. Being an NPC doesn't disqualify you from that, because if it did, Ganondorf shouldn't have been in Melee, because he wasn't playable before that point!

What are you going on about as a "game" part of Windows? Solitaire? Because that's completely a different program, nay, different type of code than the OS that is Windows. Sorry friend, but you don't have a leg, or even piece of paper, to stand on in this instance.

Ah yes, Joker and Cloud were absolutely added because of Persona Q and Theatrhythm! The reason they went for a Vault Boy mii costume was the success of Fallout Shelter! Clearly!

Wii Fit is not a video game - it can entertain, but that's not the crux. It is an application with games in it released for a game console, just like these:

or perhaps even... this

Solitaire, Minesweeper, Space Cadet Pinball, e.t.c. are part of the Windows brand - as is Clippy and Microsoft Office. Anyway, I don't see why interactive digital content that isn't a video game should be barred. There's so little viable options from that category that it wouldn't really effect roster selection too much to allow them.

 

[Deleted member]

Bob is kind of a dumb pick yes but it's not like he has any real chance of winning so I don't see the need to turn this into an issue?

 

[Commander_Alph]

Solitaire, Minesweeper, Space Cadet Pinball, e.t.c. are part of the Windows brand - as is Clippy and Microsoft Office. Anyway, I don't see why interactive digital content that isn't a video game should be barred. There's so little viable options from that category that it wouldn't really effect roster selection too much to allow them.

Solitaire, Minesweeper and Space Cadet Pinball? Yes.
Microsoft Office? Okay, that's too far, just because it's brand doesn't mean everything fall under the same category.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Why are we even arguing about Clippy? He wasn't submitted and the one time I did submit him he was veto'd for a lack of Nintendo connection (BS rule BTW)

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Can't wait for the Hatsune Miku submission when the Sega submissions come around.

 

[cashregister9]

I would play the **** out of Bob if he ever got into a smash game legitimately tho. He is one of my mains in Tekken 7

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I submitted Yoshimitsu not because he’s the top dog in Tekken, but because he has that combination of Tekken appearances while also being a bridge to SoulCalibur. I didn’t want to submit a full SoulCalibur character since we already had two so I picked an angle no one other than Yoshimitsu could cover.

Which is also an aspect of this debate: If we only went for the most obvious picks, then there would only be five submissions per round. With how many users we have that send in their submissions, you can’t always get the top of the chain. If the obligatory picks are taken, you gotta get creative. Not to say that Bob is the only logical pick after having submitted ten but I’d say the discussion is very stupid if it’s very specifically about Tekken Bob instead of the general dichotomy of creativity vs the obvious, iconic picks.

Don't get me wrong, I actually think Yoshimitsu is a perfectly fine suggestion, in fact, I didn't even know he'd been submitted and was just using him as an example.

Wii Fit isn't a video game though - it is an application with game elements released on a video game console.

Anyway, Clippy is completely irrelevant to this discussion - I was simply naming him as an example that MS' back catalog has infinitely more iconic characters than Banjo.

Are you one of those people who unironically uses Scrimblo Bimblo?

You're mistaking "sales numbers" to equal "iconic" - sales numbers definitely play a part, but just having big sales alone isn't enough to an iconic character make. There's literally dozens of factors that make that.

Smash invites don't just get handed out to every tom, ****, and harry that exist in video games. There need to be some boundaries so that the roster doesn't get filled with characters like Buck Bumble, Android 21, Tim from Braid, and Billybob Tekken. Pushing those boundaries from time to time isn't a problem - but knowing the line between what's really has status as an icon, a substantial fanbase (not just in Smash speculation but their own series as well), and interesting moveset potential, and what quantifies as just "for the sake of memes/pissing people off."

Even with the character submissions I personally dislike in this thread, such as Grovyle/Celebi, Crazy Dave, and Marin just to name a few - I at least see some form of merit in including them. But with a character like, say, for example Neco-Arc, who actually is a fighting game character (and a ****post at that) I literally cannot see merit in including them as a fighter in an official Smash title, which may I remind you, this is supposed to be (hypothetically). As a fighter in Crusade or SSF2? Absolutely. But if we're trying to pretend this is supposed to be "the next Smash after Ultimate" than there should absolutely be some form of barrier to entry.

Bob is kind of a dumb pick yes but it's not like he has any real chance of winning so I don't see the need to turn this into an issue?

It's less about Bob specifically and more about kind of direction this project should've taken from the start, because there's confusion and a failure to lock in a proper "identity" for itself.

 

[Jondolio]

The idea that we should be restricted by some arbitrary rules is so stupid considering Ultimate's newcomer roster basically broke fan rule after fan rule

Why do you care so much. It's just a video game

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Don't get me wrong, I actually think Yoshimitsu is a perfectly fine suggestion, in fact, I didn't even know he'd been submitted and was just using him as an example.



Are you one of those people who unironically uses Scrimblo Bimblo?

You're mistaking "sales numbers" to equal "iconic" - sales numbers definitely play a part, but just having big sales alone isn't enough to an iconic character make. There's literally dozens of factors that make that.

Smash invites don't just get handed out to every tom, ****, and harry that exist in video games. There need to be some boundaries so that the roster doesn't get filled with characters like Buck Bumble, Android 21, Tim from Braid, and Billybob Tekken. Pushing those boundaries from time to time isn't a problem - but knowing the line between what's really has status as an icon, a substantial fanbase (not just in Smash speculation but their own series as well), and interesting moveset potential, and what quantifies as just "for the sake of memes/pissing people off."

Even with the character submissions I personally dislike in this thread, such as Grovyle/Celebi, Crazy Dave, and Marin just to name a few - I at least see some form of merit in including them. But with a character like, say, for example Neco-Arc, who actually is a fighting game character (and a ****post at that) I literally cannot see merit in including them as a fighter in an official Smash title, which may I remind you, this is supposed to be (hypothetically). As a fighter in Crusade or SSF2? Absolutely. But if we're trying to pretend this is supposed to be "the next Smash after Ultimate" than there should absolutely be some form of barrier to entry.

Yup, I did submit him but he fell prey to the same reason as why Samurai Shodown was rejected for this job: Overlap with Takamaru. Which I say is fair enough, rules are rules and all that.

The idea that we should be restricted by some arbitrary rules is so stupid considering Ultimate's newcomer roster basically broke fan rule after fan rule

Why do you care so much. It's just a video game

It’s not even a video game, it’s a hypothetical design document for a hypothetical video game

 

[Capybara Gaming]

The idea that we should be restricted by some arbitrary rules is so stupid considering Ultimate's newcomer roster basically broke fan rule after fan rule

Why do you care so much. It's just a video game

Because I think it's a cool project and I don't want to lose interest in it. That's why I care.

But everything has to have some form of rules. That's how order is maintained. Freedom cannot exist without order.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Vote for Heihachi Mishima and let us all scramble to figure out what his up special would be.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Vote for Heihachi Mishima and let us all scramble to figure out what his up special would be.

Obviously his Up Special would be Tekken Bob

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Because I think it's a cool project and I don't want to lose interest in it. That's why I care.

But everything has to have some form of rules. That's how order is maintained. Freedom cannot exist without order.

If meme picks annoy you that much, why didn't you leave during the Twitter negotiations?

 

[Jondolio]

Because I think it's a cool project and I don't want to lose interest in it. That's why I care.

But everything has to have some form of rules. That's how order is maintained. Freedom cannot exist without order.

Sir this is a game where Ganondorf, Ridley, and Sephiroth can fight to the death while each of them is wearing a tutu

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Vote for Heihachi Mishima and let us all scramble to figure out what his up special would be.

Generic Upward Punch/Kick. There ya go.

The idea that we should be restricted by some arbitrary rules is so stupid considering Ultimate's newcomer roster basically broke fan rule after fan rule

Why do you care so much. It's just a video game

Also, and this is the last post I'm making on the matter since I don't have all day, let's look at the "fan rules" Ultimate actually broke.

• Collectibles like stickers/trophies/spirits can't be fighters (technically this was already broken in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Lucas)
• No more than one new character per third party company
• No content from primarily non-gaming companies (this does not qualify as non-gaming content, just saying that primarily non-gaming companies can include fighters from games they produce)
• No content from console rivals
• Character size matters (again, technically broken in Brawl thanks to Olimar)
• A character can be "too irrelevant"
• Third party series can't get fighters through DLC if they're in base game
• A character can't appear as a fighter if they're in someone else's Final Smash/moveset in some capacity

If meme picks annoy you that much, why didn't you leave during the Twitter negotiations?

Well, for one, that was decided before I showed up in the thread for the first time.
Second, I actually did voice my grievances with how stupid I think that concept is.

Sir this is a game where Ganondorf, Ridley, and Sephiroth can fight to the death while each of them is wearing a tutu

How is this even remotely relevant to the conversation on how characters should be chosen?

 

[Glubbfubb]

What's going on

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Venus, i know your in charge of the project but i honestly find your idea of ignoring some of our suggestions for characters who are more "hype induced?" to be a little unfair.

For the record, unless the submission was totally against the prompt, I don’t veto submissions. Basically, what I was getting at that had I been more attentive during the entire month of April, I would of vetoed Buck Bumble. But I didn’t. Just something I regret not taking the time to remove it in favor of something more iconic. I just felt Buck Bumble was entirely for the lols/memes. Regardless, I honored the win.

I’ve been pretty open with the fact that off all the charqcters we have submitted, I’ve agreed with Isaac, Crash, and Takamaru. Most our other submissions I’ve been pretty lukewarm to negative with but, honestly, I’m happy yo guys like them. That’s what matters to me most.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

Heihachi when Kazuya gets chosen to be a Smash fighter because he has the devil gene

 

[Jondolio]

• Collectibles like stickers/trophies/spirits can't be fighters (technically this was already broken in Smash 4 with Mewtwo and Lucas)
• No more than one new character per third party company
• No content from primarily non-gaming companies (this does not qualify as non-gaming content, just saying that primarily non-gaming companies can include fighters from games they produce)
• No content from console rivals
• Character size matters (again, technically broken in Brawl thanks to Olimar)
• A character can be "too irrelevant"
• Third party series can't get fighters through DLC if they're in base game
• A character can't appear as a fighter if they're in someone else's Final Smash/moveset in some capacity

I think the point I'm trying to make is that all of these rules look really ****ing dumb in hindsight. How would you react if Bob Tekken makes it into Smash for real one day? Like, I don't think it's gonna happen, but then you're probably gonna adjust your fan rules to justify that addition, right?

Acting like there's any sort of barrier to entry in a game where you can beat people up as a Piranha Plant is kinda stupid if you ask me.

How is this even remotely relevant to the conversation on how characters should be chosen?

Because you're going all hardcore with the whole "Freedom can't exist without order" shtick that's even less relevant to the conversation

Lighten up, it's just a silly crossover fighter