Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[BKupa666]

THE BABIES

 

[Diddy Kong]

'THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY! THE BABY!' ~ Samus

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of Tingle, I guess this would be his final smash if he's gonna make it through.

Spoiler

Sure, why not?

So, despite Sheik never getting a new role in a Zelda game ever again you guys are completely cool with her staying in Smash forever just to keep a gimmick in tact?

She's not a gimmick, she's Zelda's first canon fighting form to ever appear. That is, canon to the games. It's not till Wind Waker regular Zelda does any kind of fighting, and that's Tetra/Toon Zelda. Hell, Tetra doesn't fight either in-game, even though she could.

Yes, Sheik is a big reason we have Zelda doing any kind of fighting, not to mention the first time she takes an active role in general in the overall series(after she knows she has powers, that is) and during a good portion of the games, not some last minute thing. Sheik is extremely important to the Zelda characterization and if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't see her taking any active roles. She started the "Zelda stops sitting on the side lines" thing.

Notably, Zelda herself still doesn't fight(she slightly does in TP, but not to any large degree, and she gets a Final Smash based upon her Light Arrows anyway) to this date. The first form we see her in doesn't generally fight at all. Let's note that Sheik clearly has to fight to get into any area in OOT, since that's a given for her to travel. In WW, Tetra's a pirate, and leads them, so she most likely fought, and again, Toon Zelda did some action as noted. In TP, Zelda when controlled(technically her first form, but she's not in control, so this one's a slight stretch) fights against you, but only with her sword... which is missing from Brawl, huh. Then only Phantom Zelda fights again in ST. So we rarely see regular Zelda(Toon/Adult/Whatever) out-right fighting or even have it implied at all for the most part. So yes, I see that no matter what Zelda appears, she'll have an alternate form that generally fights better, just like Melee and Brawl because that's part of who she is now. Her flimsy Princess form and her fighting fit form(Pirate, Ninja, Knight, Possessed Swordswoman. In no particular order, mind you).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So, despite Sheik never getting a new role in a Zelda game ever again you guys are completely cool with her staying in Smash forever just to keep a gimmick in tact?

It's not a gimmick if it's a major part of Zelda history. People seem to think things like relevancy to modern gaming actually matter when it comes to making the roster.

Yet the roster says the exact fricking opposite?

Why people do this?

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not a number of appearances at stake. I'd argue Impa's biggest role was as one of the Sage's in Ocarina. However more people will forever remember Sheik just because at the time it was the hugest twist and Ocarina is more revered as a game. At the time it was huge that Zelda had taken place in the action by disgusing herself as this man.

Any of Impa's frankly supporting roles does not top that.

Then people need to stop living in the past. OoT is no doubt a historical game, but people need to move on already.

Mushrooms. Spores. Various Mario Kart items. He clearly can fight, as shown in the off-shoot Kart Fighter, the Super Mario Bros. Super Show, and Wario's Woods. He doesn't even need to pull out Vegetables, despite sharing a similar trait with Peach in some of his appearances. He commands a Toad Army in Galaxy. His race is playable or notable in various Paper Mario games(which means related stuff from there), there's also the New Super Mario Bros. Wii/Wii U power-ups he can use, like the Propeller for his Up B, items from Mario Party as well. He can even use a Power Star as an attack seeing as how they sometimes hold onto it in Super Mario 64, and since the Yellow Bunnies in there do too, they could do some kind of attack. He also has tons of easy costumes.

I'd say he's pretty easy, not as much as Villager, perhaps, but still pretty easy to make playable.

I personally envisioned more of a Lightning Grappler type of character. I believe using all the different power-ups, karts, etc. seems like another composite character like how the Villager and Miss Fit are to a degree. A Lightning Grappler type of playstyle would be more of a callback to the earlier days of the Mario games.

Yes, Diddy, Phantom Zelda is way more important than Impa. She's ZELDA, for cripes' sake. Impa will never be more important than the MAIN characters or any of their major forms. That's just plain obvious to quite a few. She also can't beat out Ghirahim or Tingle, who have more mainstay power than Impa, considering Ghirahim is an extremely important villain in SS, and Tingle has his own games. And no, that's a really bad excuse for Impa to not have a Trophy. The fact she didn't, yet again, despite OOT being remade, just shows how much he cares about her.

Never use extremes in an argument unless it's something like a scientific law. If we go by what was said in Hyrule Historia, she was a very important character as the holder of Triforce of Power until Ganondorf claimed it

And why is it that Ghirahim has more "mainstay power"? Yes, Ghirahim was practically the lead villain of SS, but don't forget that Impa played as large of a role as she could in comparison to Link and Zelda. Not only that, but we don't know if Ghirahim will be back any time soon whereas Impa is a recurring character throughout the series.

Anyway, about that trophy line, she couldn't exactly have a trophy in Brawl to begin with. OoT 3D was not released until three years AFTER Brawl was released. Notice how there aren't ANY trophies from that or the original N64 release to begin with.

I don't get all the "Impa x Sheik" talk.
Okay, Impa is pretty important. She must be one of the Top 5 recurring characters in Zelda.
But the think about Sheik is... She is Zelda. She is ****ing Zelda. She is not just a character from Zelda, she is mother ****ing Zelda. I mean, holy ****ing ****.

I mean, come on!

My problem with Sheik stems from balance issues. I believe Sheik holds Zelda back from being any good. The two need to be balanced against each other, but it never quite works out. I'm of the opinion that Zelda becomes a standalone zoning character while Sheik is replaced with a standalone Impa with Sheik becoming an unlockable skin. There, everyone wins.

Try looking at this not from a who's who POV but from a gameplay POV.

 

[O'kaz A1]

THE BABIES

Their ghosts, I mean freaking spirits that will flow away with the air, then when there are near the clouds... EDIT: (I know this is off the topic and I apologise for that)

Spoiler

they reach the Pikmin heaven
or

they come so very close they will burn through the sun, but the red pikmin will get frozen into space for a while.
(If you know what I mean)

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If you think Sheik holds Zelda back from being any good. You clearly just don't know what you're doing with Zelda.

 

[Big-Cat]

You mean do Down B to turn into Sheik?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I personally envisioned more of a Lightning Grappler type of character. I believe using all the different power-ups, karts, etc. seems like another composite character like how the Villager and Miss Fit are to a degree. A Lightning Grappler type of playstyle would be more of a callback to the earlier days of the Mario games.

Any could work, really.

Never use extremes in an argument unless it's something like a scientific law. If we go by what was said in Hyrule Historia, she was a very important character as the holder of Triforce of Power until Ganondorf claimed it

Yet still less important than the 4th most important, Tingle, who stars in his own games. She's still important, but not beyond extremely.

And why is it that Ghirahim has more "mainstay power"? Yes, Ghirahim was practically the lead villain of SS, but don't forget that Impa played as large of a role as she could in comparison to Link and Zelda. Not only that, but we don't know if Ghirahim will be back any time soon whereas Impa is a recurring character throughout the series.

Being (pretty much) the lead villain gives him an edge over her, actually. A secondary character, not so much. She's really in the same area as Groose, somewhat important, but not a main character like Zelda, Link, and Ghirahim(and Demise is). Fi is harder to say, respectively.

Anyway, about that trophy line, she couldn't exactly have a trophy in Brawl to begin with. OoT 3D was not released until three years AFTER Brawl was released. Notice how there aren't ANY trophies from that or the original N64 release to begin with.

I'm talking about OOT Master Quest and Legend of Zelda: Collector's Edition, actually. She had recent enough trophies if Sakurai wanted to give her one.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Nope. Zelda is perfectly capable of standing alone as someone you can win matches with without having to resort to transform into Sheik.

I should know. I do it all the time.

 

[vicgur]

My problem with Sheik stems from balance issues. I believe Sheik holds Zelda back from being any good. The two need to be balanced against each other, but it never quite works out. I'm of the opinion that Zelda becomes a standalone zoning character while Sheik is replaced with a standalone Impa with Sheik becoming an unlockable skin. There, everyone wins.

Try looking at this not from a who's who POV but from a gameplay POV.

That is actually one of the most interesting arguments I've seen in Smashboards since my first fay here.
Seriously.

But yeah, I see why taking Sheik away from Zelda makes sense, as much as I'd like to see the little sensible SS Zelda turning into the ninja badass Sheik[with a brand new SS design].
I'll be happy either way, each way for a different reason.

 

[Oasis_S]

I had an awful dream that Smash sold itself out and included a bunch of third-parties no one ever heard or cared about only because they had upcoming games on the Wii U that Nintendo needed to advertise, and ALSO included third-parties just because they were women?

Who ever posted that picture of that lady from Wonderful 101, I think it's your fault that I had that dream.

 

[Big-Cat]

Being (pretty much) the lead villain gives him an edge over her, actually. A secondary character, not so much. She's really in the same area as Groose, somewhat important, but not a main character like Zelda, Link, and Ghirahim(and Demise is). Fi is harder to say, respectively.

I don't know which Skyward Sword you've been playing, but she is very much a main character in Skyward Sword. Again, she might not be on to the scale of Link and Zelda for the hero side, but she's still very important for the motions of the plot. Groose literally just dropped in. Very few, if any, Zelda characters have ever been as important as Link and Zelda in the games they appear in.

I'm talking about OOT Master Quest and Legend of Zelda: Collector's Edition, actually. She had recent enough trophies if Sakurai wanted to give her one.

Except the graphics for those games are incredibly dated. Again, not even other fan favorites like Saria or Malon got trophies. The majority trend was that the trophies consisted of models from games released on the Gamecube, Wii and occasionally DS. Anything else was made into a sticker.

Nope. Zelda is perfectly capable of standing alone as someone you can win matches with without having to resort to transform into Sheik.

I should know. I do it all the time.

That is actually one of the most interesting arguments I've seen in Smashboards since my first fay here.
Seriously.

But yeah, I see why taking Sheik away from Zelda makes sense, as much as I'd like to see the little sensible SS Zelda turning into the ninja badass Sheik[with a brand new SS design].
I'll be happy either way, each way for a different reason.

This to me still doesn't make sense. Why go to the trouble of making a SS design when you've got Impa? It's not like it's a gigantic processing difference - Zelda and Sheik are treated as their own separate characters even by the game's placement of data.

 

[Metal Overlord]

As far as third parties go, just give me Sonic and Snake and I'll be straight

 

[Diddy Kong]

If you think Sheik holds Zelda back from being any good. You clearly just don't know what you're doing with Zelda.

Only Ganondorf is worse than her in Brawl. :/ In Melee, she's heavily outclassed by Sheik as well.

And Kuma is right. Balancing issues with Zelda and Sheik are always gonna be a problem with their current movesets. The implied playstyle is: rank up damage as Sheik, finish off with Zelda. Only, ranking damage goes so well as Sheik, and finishing is easier than with Zelda, who basically has zero safe options. All her moves are extremely risky. And she's also extremely slow and has ****tons of lag. Kind of the opposite of Sheik. Which is no surprise, as that's how they are designed.

Truth to be told, perhaps Melee Zelda coupled with Brawl Sheik would work best with the implied playstyle (give Zelda the Din's Fire from Brawl though, with buffs) but even then, the playstyle is doomed to fail. Most people don't even play both characters anyway. They just either pick Zelda or Sheik. And stick with their one character, even casuals do this (my one friend always picks Zelda, and never uses Sheik at all for example).

Also, the transformation gimmick might've been cute and fitting in Melee, but with the inclusion of Zero Suit Samus and Pokémon Trainer in Brawl, it has became a lot less unique. At least Pokémon Trainer's gimmick forced you to play all 3 characters. And despite being old, Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are all still extremely popular, well known, and are actual fighter material. And at least Zero Suit Samus is always relevant, as Samus is still the same Samus in all Metroid games.

Anyways, I see no logical reason to keep Sheik in.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Cammy just found out she was played by Kylie Minogue didn't she?

 

[yani]

I come back to more Impa vs. Sheik

 

[Moon Monkey]

I mess around with solo-dolo Zelda from time to time. She's pretty fun.

 

[vicgur]

This to me still doesn't make sense. Why go to the trouble of making a SS design when you've got Impa? It's not like it's a gigantic processing difference - Zelda and Sheik are treated as their own separate characters even by the game's placement of data.

I don't know how to explain, bro. Personally, I really liked to see the effort they put into making a whole new "TP design" for Sheik in Brawl. This shows how much they care about making their characters look fresh and pretty. Making a "SS design" would raise the bar even further, and that would be awesome.
Heck, I don't even know how/if they'll make SS Zelda work. She is a completely different character, if you compare her with the other Zeldas.
Just thinking about it makes me excited.

 

[vicgur]

As far as third parties go, just give me Sonic and Snake and I'll be straight

Pretty much.

>inb4 Snake is probably gonna be cut

EDIT: Oops, double post. Sorry.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The TP-inspired Sheik might not have been created for Smash at all. It's also been saidmit was meant for TP itself, but Sheik got scrapped from the game. This further proofs Nintendo actually does NOT care for Sheik at all. Since they made Impa return in Skysard Sword, which is the major Zelda console game after Twilight Princess. Impa could've easily been Sheik, but they chose Impa instead. And they will do so again the next time me thinks.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Or you know the story just called for Impa? Because Impa and Sheik aren't as interchangeable as you think. One's Zelda. The others an entirely different recurring woman.

Seriously. Not that hard to grasp. You can't give Impa a Sheik role and you can't give Sheik an Impa role.

 

[Baskerville]

If Impa gets into Smash 4 I will saw off my own foot and eat it.

A little to extreme don't you think

 

[Diddy Kong]

Impa and Zelda are mostly togheter in Skyward Sword. Young Impa could've easily been Sheik. Zelda doesn't explain herself much anyway, and she could reveal herself to be Zelda the moment she told Link of her destiny. Old Impa could be the only Impa, and serve as Zelda's tutor again as in OoT.

So no, they did chose Impa over Sheik in this regard.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Samus confirmed as Pikmin 3's Final Boss.

This would actually be comforting considering how the actual final boss in Pikmin 3 is nightmare fuel.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

A little to extreme don't you think

I'mma mostly joshing. I wouldn't care either way. I'm just saying I find her that unlikely.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Impa and Zelda are mostly togheter in Skyward Sword. Young Impa could've easily been Sheik. Zelda doesn't explain herself much anyway, and she could reveal herself to be Zelda the moment she told Link of her destiny. Old Impa could be the only Impa, and serve as Zelda's tutor again as in OoT.

So no, they did chose Impa over Sheik in this regard.

For someone who is an Impa fan you don't seem to grasp what I'm saying.

Impa's most important part of her recurring role is being the protector of Zelda. It's the purpose she serves in EVERY game she's in. Even in Skyward Sword that is her primary function and role in the story.

Sheik herself is Zelda. Zelda who has been forced to go into deep hiding against a villain.

So when a story calls for say a guardian to Zelda to be present who do you think Nintendo is gonna use?

Oh gee, let's see Impa.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't know how to explain, bro. Personally, I really liked to see the effort they put into making a whole new "TP design" for Sheik in Brawl. This shows how much they care about making their characters look fresh and pretty. Making a "SS design" would raise the bar even further, and that would be awesome.
Heck, I don't even know how/if they'll make SS Zelda work. She is a completely different character, if you compare her with the other Zeldas.
Just thinking about it makes me excited.

Well, as Link in Smash 4 confirms, the Zelda characters, or at least the Links and Zelda, are composite characters of their canon counterparts. This makes things all the more tricky for Zelda though. Link's appearance has generally been kept the same minus design evolutions and art style changes. Zelda was pretty much this, but everything changed with Waifu Zelda. She was different from all the other Zeldas that came after her both in appearance and personality.

I would like if they used the Waifu Zelda personality with a regal design inspired by her Skyward Sword clothes. She really was the best Zelda in the series.

Or you know the story just called for Impa? Because Impa and Sheik aren't as interchangeable as you think. One's Zelda. The others an entirely different recurring woman.

Seriously. Not that hard to grasp. You can't give Impa a Sheik role and you can't give Sheik an Impa role.

This is true, but you have to think of one additional reason why it would be difficult to keep bringing back Sheik. You can't use her as a disguise since every Zelda fan would know it's Zelda. You could ignore that and make it where even Link knows Zelda turns into Sheik, but you really can't use that more than once. Likewise, you probably won't be able to use something along the lines of Tetra is Zelda more than once either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Supposedly Earthbound is supposed to come out today on the Wii U VC.

http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/82s5n1dbV4gstayVNhVYtOneSXTIXACS

 

[Tree Gelbman]

That's true of Sheik and Zelda and Tetra and Zelda in some way but as long as the rest of the storyline is good and has other unique twists what's to stop them from just having Sheik be a disguise that Link and the fans know, but the villain of said story does not? Nothing.

It's Zelda not a M. Night Shamyalasdfnaskndong movie anyways.

 

[Diddy Kong]

For someone who is an Impa fan you don't seem to grasp what I'm saying.

Impa's most important part of her recurring role is being the protector of Zelda. It's the purpose she serves in EVERY game she's in. Even in Skyward Sword that is her primary function and role in the story.

Sheik herself is Zelda. Zelda who has been forced to go into deep hiding against a villain.

So when a story calls for say a guardian to Zelda to be present who do you think Nintendo is gonna use?

Oh gee, let's see Impa.

But looking at the story, Impa and Zelda where escaping Ghirahim.

Anyway, bottom line is, they didn't make Sheik fit in. They brought Impa back. Heck, it's even Old Impa now teaching you how to play the Goddess Harp (the same Harp Sheik likely used in OoT). And that was Sheik's main role... Teaching you songs.

Anyways, Sheik will likely not return in Zelda anyway. It'd be an immediate spoiler to the plot.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

This would actually be comforting considering how the actual final boss in Pikmin 3 is nightmare fuel.

I don't know Japanese very well, so I don't know much about the final boss other than

Spoiler

it's a gold blobby thing that sorta resembles the Waterwraith who captured Olimar and Louie, and it chases you in the first phase and then you fight it directly in the second phase. You fight it in this thing that resembles a termite mound in the desert.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's true of Sheik and Zelda and Tetra and Zelda in some way but as long as the rest of the storyline is good and has other unique twists what's to stop them from just having Sheik be a disguise that Link and the fans know, but the villain of said story does not? Nothing.

It's Zelda not a M. Night Shamyalasdfnaskndong movie anyways.

Except those two things were very much plot twists in comparison to other plot developments in the Zelda series. Sure, there are other twists like Midna being the Twilight Princess and other things like that, but how often are those twists revisited?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hint: It's never.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Except those two things were very much plot twists in comparison to other plot developments in the Zelda series. Sure, there are other twists like Midna being the Twilight Princess and other things like that, but how often are those twists revisited?

True, but it's not like it's totally out of the realm of possibility they could do that for one more story. It's not like the series isn't about history repeating itself throughout the land of Hyrule or anything.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Hint: It's never.

Oh so you work for Nintendo do you?

Do tell me then how is Mr. Miyamoto today? And how is Sakurai's injuries? He holding up okay?

Don't say **** like this. It makes you look like an ass who thinks they know everything. No one likes that type of person.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't know Japanese very well, so I don't know much about the final boss other than

Spoiler

it's a gold blobby thing that sorta resembles the Waterwraith who captured Olimar and Louie, and it chases you in the first phase and then you fight it directly in the second phase. You fight it in this thing that resembles a termite mound in the desert.

Spoiler

Yeah and it breaks off pieces of itself that then morph into things like giant bubbles, pools of fire, giant spark balls, and rolling cubes that can kill your whole team at once.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yeah but even though, they've already been replacing Sheik's 'role' by Tetra and Impa. And the series is notoriously known for it's many one-off characters. Impa is not one of them. Sheik is.

 

[Conviction]

Not to stave you guys from playing solo Zelda but she is god awful and the only reason you are probably winning those games is because your opponent is severely outclassed in gameplay mechanics and/or doesn't know the MU.

In all honesty, Zelda is one of those characters you can learn the MU for in like 1 game imo.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Yeah but even though, they've already been replacing Sheik's 'role' by Tetra and Impa. And the series is notoriously known for it's many one-off characters. Impa is not one of them. Sheik is.

For the love of god casting Impa in a role where she's the protector of Zelda does not mean they put her in Sheik's shoes.

The Tetra thing I will give you for being similar.

But the role Impa plays in Skyward Sword is the same role she's been playing since the very first Zelda game.

When Impa turns out to be Zelda in disguise then you can say that Impa = Sheik.

Then and only then.