Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[LaniusShrike]

Impa debates are at least more lively and interessting than Fire Emblem debates.

Speaking of, we can combine the two if we'd like?

I mean, Impa could totally fit into the Fire Emblem Universe. She could be a Trickster, or a Mage Fighter. Or a FE9 Sage, with Knives, like Callil. Or be a totally different class alltogheter, something in the likes of a Whisperer (Sothe, FE:RD) , Rogue (FE8), Assassin and Sage.

She could be the Seth / Titania- like character, but in Sage form. Protecting Zelda from harm. She seems like the ideal Zelda 'Jeigan'-like character. But like Seth and Titania, able to kick serious ***. Or to nerf her a little, give her good Speed and Skill bases, but low Strenght and Magic, but higher growths in Strenght and Magic.

So, list of Zelda characters in Fire Emblem classes:

Link - Hero (like Ike, placeholder for Lord title). Uses Swords before promotion, and Swords and Bows after promotion. Also has a Hammer-like weapon after promotion, but doesn't use other Axes. Like Celice in FE4, he can mount and unmount. This doesn't change his stats outside movement however.
Zelda - Princess (placeholder Lord title name). Uses Magic before promotion. And Bows and Staffs after promotion. Can use Light Magic and Anima Magic.
Impa - Sage (explained above, could be a new class to). Magic and Knives before promotion, additional Swords and Staffs after promotion.
Ganondorf - Dark Lord (unique class of coarse). Can use Swords, Lances, Axes and Dark Magic.
Tingle - Dancer (can promote however)

Other universes we can turn into Fire Emblem fashion?

Heh, a FE x Zelda crossover would be fun. Not a fantastic universe for a silent protagonist like Link, but that's fine...

... it'd be kind of weird seeing Link getting shipped with every female in the game, but... whatever.
Zelda could totally just be a standard mage, maybe Spirit.
Gdorf could be a Dark Knight.

These are actual classes, I think? I'm too lazy to look 'em up right now.

(Sheik would be an assassin. Lethality for the win.)

 

[Fatmanonice]

.. You guys know that EarthBound is on the Wii U eShop for North America & Europe RIGHT NOW, right?

It makes me wonder if Ness/Lucas or at least a Mother stage will be announced later tonight to commemorate the occasion.

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

>Diddy Kong posts Impa stuff
>Argument ensues

Why am I not one bit surprised?

Also, Fire Emblem: Awakening is one of the best games I've ever played.

Currently listening to I.d (Purpose) again at the time of reading post. :thumbs:
I haven't played any FE games, though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It all started as a joke.

Why would you joke about Impa, though? We know you like her.

If you didn't want to have us explain the problems with her replacing Sheik, you shouldn't have posted about her. Or you could adopt a stance of her just being added in, which would mean people wouldn't be opposed to her nearly as much. Hey, I'm for six slots that put her and Tingle in, but as long as no one is replaced, sure, why not?

 

[LaniusShrike]

I'd like to see her use that attack with the glowing Triforce on the ground and have light shooting from it.
But I don't think it's worth removing Sheik or making her a separate character.

On the surface, making the two of them separate fighters and giving them their own down+B moves is cool, but it would seem weird to me. Shiek is the alter-ego of Zelda (OOT Zelda), so the two are meant to be part of the same character.


The "Mexico of the Mexicans" part gave me a pretty good laugh.

Um, so what you're saying in the last part is that you think the Shiekah will be named after someone named Shiek, like how the land of Hyrule was named after the goddess Hylia?

---

I think it'd be nice to let Sheik represent Ocarina of Time on her own and let the other Zelda characters evolve to whatever fits best instead of trying to keep Sheik up to date.
(I think having Sheik be a counterpart to non-OoT Zeldas is a little weirder than having Sheik as a standalone representative. Neither fully make sense, but Sheik + other Zeldas is just flat out incorrect.)

Yeah, I am saying that I think the Sheikah were named after someone named Sheik... I figure "Sheikah" literally translates to "Those of Sheik" in some secret Zelda language.

I personally want there to be a few Zelda-verse side story games that let you play people that aren't Link to flesh out the universe, such as playing as Impa/Sheik and even Ganondorf. Some insight to Gdorf and the Gerudo would be just fantastic.

And no I do not mean games like Tingle's Pink Rupee Lust Land or whatever.

 

[Oasis_S]

At least the idea of playing as Zelda has been brought to Aonuma's attention. That'd be neat.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh whao, Diddy is firing his Impa propaganda again. So completely unexpected.

It amazes me how he single-handedly turned Impa into a plague.

As for Impa getting in, she's firmly under the foot of Tingle and Toon Zelda & Toon Sheik/Tetra.

 

[Oddyesy]

Oh whao, Diddy is firing his Impa propaganda again. So completely unexpected.

It amazes me how he single-handedly turned Impa into a plague.

As for Impa getting in she firmly under the foot of Tingle and Toon Zelda & Toon Sheik/Tetra.

I think if there WAS Toon Zelda, her counterpart would be Tetra.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think if there WAS Toon Zelda, her counterpart would be Tetra.

Nope. Data explicitly says Toon Sheik. That was the original plan, even if Tetra might've been put in later. But Sakurai did want Toon Sheik first regardless. Trust me, I'd have taken Toon Zelda/Tetra too, but that doesn't mean we would've gotten Tetra at all. He loves his clones, and making up characters specifically for Smash, as Giga Bowser can contest.

So it's not really hard to believe he'd make a Toon Sheik whatsoever.

 

[Metal Overlord]

You forget nobody here has a sense of humor

I do

 

[Autumn ♫]

I really don't want to see Toon Zelda make it in. I'm okay with Tetra, just not with Toon Zelda.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I'm really thinking too much into that cross over that Namco is doing now.....

 

[Oasis_S]

Sakurai does NOT love clones, which is pretty evident in that he flat out removed 2 of them, and changed up the remaining ones quite a bit even if they aren't completely unique. Then he's gone on to say he wants to focus on making each character feel like an individual for Smash 4 (something like that), which doesn't really mean a whole lot, but you can at least expect about what Brawl gave us on the matter.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I really don't want to see Toon Zelda make it in. I'm okay with Tetra, just not with Toon Zelda.

Tetra's really nothing without Toon Zelda, so not really going to happen. It'd be Toon Zelda & Toon Sheik, Toon Zelda & Tetra, or Toon Zelda & Phantom Zelda realistically. Not that Tetra & Phantom Zelda wouldn't be neat, but it's not likely as they weren't originally the same person in any possible way like the original Zelda/Sheik were in Melee.

Of course Sakurai loves clones. It's why he chose to not declone Ganondorf, remake Child Link and purposely keep him a clone by his own admittance, and chose 6 clones over King Dedede in Melee. Let's not forget all the weaker clones with the Polygons, Wire Frames, Metal Mario, Giant Donkey Kong, and the clone-based Event matches for Link (and Samus if duel-played). Let's not forget Giga Bowser. He only removed one clone purposely, that was Pichu. Young Link got reformatted into a new version. Everybody else, clone or not, was planned. I don't see how he isn't a fan of clones either way when they're heavily present in every single Smash to date.

 

[Mr. OC]

Sakurai does NOT love clones, which is pretty evident in that he flat out removed 2 of them, and changed up the remaining ones quite a bit even if they aren't completely unique. Then he's gone on to say he wants to focus on making each character feel like an individual for Smash 4 (something like that), which doesn't really mean a whole lot, but you can at least expect about what Brawl gave us on the matter.

He didn't actually "remove" them, their data was still on the disc. They just didn't get finished, due to bad dev timing.
If they didn't rush the game, they probably would've been in with slightly revamped movesets.

 

[FalKoopa]

Sakurai does NOT love clones, which is pretty evident in that he flat out removed 2 of them, and changed up the remaining ones quite a bit even if they aren't completely unique.

To be fair, he only removed one: the joke character Pichu.

Despite Toon Link being put as a newcomer on Brawl's dojo, it's rather obvious that he replaced Young Link.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He didn't actually "remove" them, their data was still on the disc. They just didn't get finished, due to bad dev timing.
If they didn't rush the game, they probably would've been in with slightly revamped movesets.

Except Pichu. If Plusle & Minun were real, he probably would've been reimagined into their moveset the same way Young Link was turned into Toon Link. With obvious differences, like not hurting themselves.

 

[Metal Overlord]

@OC- He removed Pichu and Young Link, that's what Oasis meant

I don't think Ganondorf in Brawl really proves anything regarding Sakurai's opinion on clones considering I don't think Sakurai cares much about Ganondorf in the first place

 

[JamesDNaux]

Holy ****, EarthBound came out on the VC today? ****, I need to get a points card or whatever the hell the Wii U shop uses.

 

[Mr. OC]

@OC- He removed Pichu and Young Link, that's what Oasis meant

I don't think Ganondorf in Brawl really proves anything regarding Sakurai's opinion on clones considering I don't think Sakurai cares much about Ganondorf in the first place

Pichu was more or less just a joke character, so he was bound to get cut. Brawl had Toon Link, I think three versions of the same character is kind of pushing it.
But if they want to really fix clones, then they need to actually put thought into the movesets. It's stupid that Ganon is a clone of CF when he's got a sword. Especially considering CF's specials were just Kamen Rider moves.

 

[Oasis_S]

I forgot what arguing with HyperFalcon is like, I really don't want to go down this road.

Still, it is evident that Sakurai has been moving away from the idea of clones, because they came about in a particular situation, a situation that has not presented itself since Melee, and will not present itself again for the foreseeable future, so he obviously doesn't love them very much. It is very unlikely he will add more clones, and the ones we already have may see even more changes to them to make them less cloney.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Holy ****, EarthBound came out on the VC today? ****, I need to get a points card or whatever the hell the Wii U shop uses.

If that wasn't cool enough, Capcom literally just announced that they are going to rerelease all the classic Gameboy Megaman games plus Xtreme 1 and 2 by the end of the year on the 3DS.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I never really understood why Captain Falcon (and by extension Ganondorf) got two specials that essentially quickly move them sideways and hurt enemies. I feel like the Cap could've benefited from a special that had a more different role.

... I'd like to note that I'm disappointed that there isn't a trophy for getting likes over 500. I was kind of expecting some small meaningless e-cred from bypassing 1,000 likes, but nooope.

 

[Mr.Universe]

If that wasn't cool enough, Capcom literally just announced that they are going to rerelease all the classic Gameboy Megaman games plus Xtreme 1 and 2 by the end of the year on the 3DS.

Maybe Megaman will be confirmed today!

Oh wait...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He added way more than just the last 6 in Melee. The tons of clones in Adventure Mode(the two Koopa Troopas become the same after the Paratroopa loses its wings), the Yoshi Team during the first level, the various Links in the first part of the Zelda section, then Lucas, Ganondorf being still very similar to Falcon in design, Toon Link again being a clone, Wolf getting fairly similar B moves(despite some differences), Falco barely unchanged, even the clone enemies in SSE like the Glice, Glire, and Glunder.

I don't see how he's really moving away from clones, just making them slightly more unique at this time. He certainly has shown how much he loves them thus far. And since earlier clones and more clones were planned to be in Brawl, that theory holds little water in reality. He does love them, even if they have a lesser chance of getting in(outside of a Child Link) compared to some more unique characters.

@qdMbp: The Falcon Raptor has some similarities to his Boost attack, which makes sense, since he's a racecar driver. Ganondorf only had that due to being a clone, but switched that out with his Flame Choke.(also, since Ganondorf is naturally a heavyweight powerhouse and has magic, even his clone moves still are realistic to what he could do. Maybe Dark Dive might be an exception, but the rest? Magical Punches and Magical Kicks for a Sorcerer with the Triforce of Power. Not that weird.

 

[Johnknight1]

You sir are going to be bald.

I hope so. I am, after all, THE UNDISPUTED RIDLEY SMASH WORLD CHAMP!!!!

 

[Conviction]

Mate, that last post makes me wonder if you even played Brawl, Falcon.

I want to type some huge post but we've been through this so many times in the past, I don't feel like repeating myself and others.

 

[Mr. OC]

 

[PSIguy89]

even with all the stupid arguments going on, today is still a BEAUTIFUL DAY~
We have finally gotten EarthBound<3
(So that means Ness will be confirmed tonight........right?.......RIGHT???????????

 

[Metal Overlord]

Hyper lol you honestly lost me at Adventure Mode clones

Those werent really clones as we know them, they were all the exact same character literally

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't get all the "Impa x Sheik" talk.
Okay, Impa is pretty important. She must be one of the Top 5 recurring characters in Zelda.
But the think about Sheik is... She is Zelda. She is ****ing Zelda. She is not just a character from Zelda, she is mother ****ing Zelda. I mean, holy ****ing ****.

I mean, come on!

Don't argue with Diddy on Impa; he has a hard on for Impa.

 

[Smashiny]

That would be great, but

even with all the stupid arguments going on, today is still a BEAUTIFUL DAY~
We have finally gotten EarthBound<3
(So that means Ness will be confirmed tonight........right?.......RIGHT???????????

That would be great, but sadly that won't happen ...

 

[FalKoopa]

I noticed something.The way the"The Legend of Zelda" appears in the reveal trailer is the exact same as it appears on OoT3D's boxart.

Kinda uncanny...

Spoiler

Coincidence? I think not.

Spoiler

Sheik confirned.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hyper lol you honestly lost me at Adventure Mode clones

Those werent really clones as we know them, they were all the exact same character literally

Nah, they're pretty much clones. Having different attributes than what you can have normally? I'd call those clones. And even if you don't count the Yoshi Team or the Metal Bros., the Troopa thing is still completely accurate. Adventure Mode referenced a bit of Smash 64 Classic with various clones. FYI, the Kirby Team were not regular Kirbies either(in 64), they couldn't lose their hats, unlike the regular Kirby. And yes, the Wire Frames(who do show up in Adventure Mode) are clones. Brawl still has quite a few. No, Falco wasn't that ridiculously changed, he's still fairly similar to Fox. Lucas' B moves are slightly different from Ness', but not that much. Wolf's B moves weren't similar? True, his Down B was almost exactly the same, but the rest of his B moves weren't super different from Fox's either. It's still a Laser, a Reflector, a Landmaster, and a Flash attack(his Forward B). His Up B was the most different, being much closer to Waterfall with Wolf Flash's basic properties.

Wolf's non-clone stuff came from his A moves, not his B moves, anyway. The clones were still clones, with Luigi being the most different overall, honestly.

@FalKoopa: So the Link might be from OOT perhaps?

 

[Johnknight1]

Then people need to stop living in the past. OoT is no doubt a historical game, but people need to move on already.

I don't want to move on from it, because nothing since it (sans Majora's Mask, the Wind Waker, and Oracles of Ages and Seasons). Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, Phantom Hourglass, Twilight Princess, Spirit Tracks, and Skyward Sword are all way overrated games, and honestly, they aren't aging well. I don't think I've ever bothered to replay any of them, either (sans Twilight Princess, which was boring to replay).

All of those games were linear as heck (heck, Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are more linear than any of the 2D Zelda games before Phantom Hourglass. That and there is nothing worthwhile to do in those games. IMO if those two games had the same graphics and processing as Ocarina of Time, you'd think they were 3 years older.

Ocarina of Time is so much better than all of those games, it's laughable. And unlike those games, Ocarina of Time always has something cool and new to find, lots of fun things to do, and you can replay it over and over and over and it is still fun (I've beaten it about 10 times). And I'm not saying that with nostalgia glasses; I first owned it in 2005.

That is why Zelda is going back to their better games: Ocarina of Time 3D (an enhance remake), A Link to the Past (sequel) and the Wind Waker HD (an enhanced remake), and a game that is probably more Ocarina of Time than Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess. That is also why Zelda franchise sales have been going down pretty steadily; the series keeps going downhill.

So yeah, getting a link to the past with the series going downhill is the way to go.

 

[PSIguy89]

update: Nintendo just released a mini direct. although I don't think its important as so far its only covered released games or soon to be released games also its about 22mins long

 

[Metal Overlord]

Nah, they're pretty much clones. Having different attributes than what you can have normally? I'd call those clones.

Your definition of a clone in Smash is different from the general one then

That's all I can really say at this point haha

 

[Johnknight1]

So yeah, getting a link to the past with the series going downhill is the way to go. Also, IGN and Famitsu giving Skyward Sword max scores is a giant joke; almost as much of a joke as Famitsu giving Brawl a perfect score and mentioned the SSE as a big reason for it (which also was a joke; honestly, I'd give Brawl and Skyward Sword an 7.5/10 at best).

So enough of this Ghirahim and especially this Impa talk, and let's talk about characters from good and interesting characters from good games.

Also, I'm really glad that Link went for more of a mostly retro look in Smash WiiU and 3DS. I'd HATE, HATE, HATE to play as his Skyward Sword look, and his Brawl/Twilight Princess look was just awful (he looked like a stereotypical "punk" Japanese anime character with dyed blonde hair). The mix of new age meets old age is the way to go (the mostly newish outfit with the classic Link body and weaponry).

Your definition of a clone in Smash is different from the general one then

That's all I can really say at this point haha

Most of the roster in Smash 64 were clones in Smash 64 that were gradually de-cloned.

Still, many of them still have the sex kick neutral Air, the spinning kick down air, the back kick/punch back air, and the flip kick up air (especially the sex kick neutral air).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Isn't it a sort of logical thing that Toon Link has to actually stay to have Toon Zelda in?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Your definition of a clone in Smash is different from the general one then

That's all I can really say at this point haha

And the others would apply regardless, as noted.

64 was odd in that regard. With the 11 Kirby clones(who were indefinitely different from regular Kirby, having different B moves preset), Metal Mario, Giant Donkey Kong, and the 12 Polygons, it was chock full of clones. Also, Crazy Hand is pretty much a clone of Master Hand anyway, with very few differences in their movesets. Plus, you know, Giga Bowser is an obvious clone.(in Melee and Brawl) I don't know about you, but each Smash has a share of clones regardless. If Sakurai was literally moving away from clones, Ganondorf would've been way different from Falcon, with maybe his Flame Choke and Dark Dive staying for B moves. But 3/5 of his B moves were still clone-based. As were some of his A moves, still. Of course, most define clones with having nearly identical B moves. I go with "Majority of moves overall", because A or B shouldn't matter overall. It's like Nightmare and Siegfried from Soul Calibur. They were clones, and there's a lot of other examples from that game. Still differences, of course.

@Diddy: Absolutely not. Spirit Train is in, where Toon Zelda last appeared. She could still get in, even with Young/Classic/Masked Link. Toon Zelda still has a chance, although I doubt she'd beat out Tingle currently. It depends if we got Toon Ganondorf or not, since a Toon game will probably be repped by a character.