Super Smash Bros 4 (Wii U/3DS) Topic

[DarkShadow20]

That quote was actually from a question about retro characters, like Ice Climbers I believe. Not about cut characters from Melee.

 

[Johnknight1]

I refuse to even debate the possibility of Smash WiiU and 3DS having a smaller roster, because the people who argue that are freaking foolish, especially given how much easier it is to simply re-add character's frame data, and just give them new models with improve graphics, balance them, and maybe give a few of them new moves.

In fact guys, I am gonna shun anyone who even brings up the idea of us getting a smaller roster (lol 2012'ers).

 

[Pyra]

I'm quite a bit late to the party- I'm a big SSB fan and all but my Melee and Brawl discs aren't functional. So I've been focusing on Smash64, and as a direct result, completely forgot about Smash 4 being a thing and... well, here I am. I hope that's a suitable enough introduction.

Now, my point is, after lurking through this thread, I'm at a loss as to what's been going on.


Anyway, about the whole roster size deal, I honestly wouldn't mind a smaller roster, if that meant less clones and more diversity. For example, I wouldn't mind taking Falco and Wolf and replacing them with two, relatively original characters (in relation to their moveset and even franchise).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why is a game without clones better than a game with clones, assuming there are no other differences?

 

[Pyra]

Why is a game without clones better than a game with clones, assuming there are no other differences?

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's better, It's just personal preference.
Don't mind me...

The clones just always struck me as a waste of a character. I figured less clones = more diversity = more fun. At least for me.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

He literally answered that immediately after saying "if that meant less clones" by saying "and more diversity." Having less clones means they can dedicate slots and time to characters that are unique.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The problem though is that uniqueness is a very vague subject, especially when it comes to making a roster of characters. Being too unique can hamper the ability to balance the roster, especially if we get gimmick characters on par with Ice Climbers and Captain Olimar. But at the same time having unique characters makes the game more interesting.

It needs a balance of sorts inorder to achieve both goals.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

assuming there are no other differences?

^

In other words, why would a game with Fox as the only playable character be better than one with Fox and Falco as the only playable characters?

On the topic of clones and newcomers replacing them...

There isn't a maximum number of characters that can be in the game, so suggesting the removal of clones to "make way" for other characters seems a little silly to me.

 

[Pyra]

-snip-
There isn't a maximum number of characters that can be in the game, so suggesting the removal of clones to "make way" for other characters seems a little silly to me.

Again, personal preference.
I would prefer not having an overwhelming amount of character choices, but hey. If they can make it (clones + newcomers without an exceedingly populous cast) work, so be it.

 

[Big-Cat]

How unique a character is doesn't have to be that complicated. We don't need to give everyone a gimmick. Start off with general stats and objectives for a character and start from there.

For example, as unique as he is, Phoenix Wright is a zoning character when you get right down to it.

I'd rather a game where Fox and Falco are different characters than to have Falco as a clone, and it's not hard to make him different.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

There isn't a max number of characters, but they are only going to put so much time into the game. As Toaster says, it is indeed preference, but it is widely preferred. People care a lot less for clones, and they almost monopolize the list of characters people are willing/wanting to cut.

It isn't a matter of "having both", it is a matter of replacing the amount of time and effort that went into several clones into putting in a character(s) that isn't based off of another and mechanically congruent and sized and shaped similarly with similar movesets. Believe it or not, most don't want the roster to just be fattened up, we haven't wanted that since Melee did that; we already have a lot of characters in Smash, Sakurai won't feel that pressing need to fatten the cast like he did with Melee, not to mention his recently spoken worries of adding too many characters at the loss of DISTINCTION. The rest of the time will be spent perfecting both games. Again, to say we have both is rather silly, people who don't want clones aren't saying they'd prefer to have less, they just want the effort and time put into more diverse things, so while we would get less characters, we'd have more than if we just cut out the clones and for some reason decided to do nothing with the time that would have went towards making the clone characters. Or at the very least, Sakurai would be working on SOME aspect on the game instead, if not adding in more unique characters.

 

[---]

Why is a game without clones better than a game with clones, assuming there are no other differences?

Street Fighter is fine and it has 5+ versions of Ryu.

Smash seems to be the only fighting game series where people get flustered over characters with similar movesets. lol

 

[~automatic]

lol 2012'ers

Glad someone said it and not me, lolz.

 

[Pyra]

Street Fighter is fine and it has 5+ versions of Ryu.

Smash seems to be the only fighting game series where people get flustered over characters with similar movesets. lol

There can be so much more potential with certain clones than with... 5+ Ryus.

I mean, I can imagine that it's much easier making unique movesets with characters from a franchise that isn't the fighting game itself (i.e. Falco has a story and is from a separate series entirely, but Ryu and etc. are all just Street Fighter characters). There's more room for creativity with these characters.

There's just something irksome about it. Everyone needs something to complain about... hahaha.

 

[Retroend]

I refuse to even debate the possibility of Smash WiiU and 3DS having a smaller roster, because the people who argue that are freaking foolish, especially given how much easier it is to simply re-add character's frame data, and just give them new models with improve graphics, balance them, and maybe give a few of them new moves.

In fact guys, I am gonna shun anyone who even brings up the idea of us getting a smaller roster (lol 2012'ers).

please do. i shall be lol'ing about. seriously, no character cuts. thats only going to make people rage.

 

[Pyra]

seriously, no character cuts. thats only going to make people rage.

"That's only going to make people rage" applies to any change to anything ever.
There's always gotta be that one group of people that disapproves.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Street Fighter is fine and it has 5+ versions of Ryu.

Smash seems to be the only fighting game series where people get flustered over characters with similar movesets. lol

This times 1000. People seriously need to get over their knee-jerk reaction to anything that even remotely resembles a clone. "OMG a character shares a move with another character, he's a clone and should be cut!"

You think I'm exaggerating? Remember the people who said Lucario was a M2 clone just because they shared an N-special?

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Street Fighter is fine and it has 5+ versions of Ryu.

Smash seems to be the only fighting game series where people get flustered over characters with similar movesets. lol

Probably because Smash is a game that involves representing all of the best characters of Nintendo, and thus throwing in a handful that have little work to them and nothing special to them is rather unfitting. Street Fighter gets a lot of the charm just by having a **** ton of characters, Sakurai doesn't want that and frankly, few do. If increasing numbers is what we wanted, our character roster discussions back in the day would have went a lot differently.


For the record, I don't care if we get clones, but like Toaster it is my personal preference to not have filler characters. Maybe as like, DLC, that'd actually be kind of neat, it wouldn't get in the way of anything else and would be ex post facto.
It also doesn't help that this Smash is apparently going to have a lot of customization, and if this is true, it will be weird to have characters that are already customized versions of other characters.


Edit: Does anyone still go around saying Lucario is a clone of Mewtwo? I actually do remember those people. .__.

 

[Pyra]

You think I'm exaggerating? Remember the people who said Lucario was a M2 clone just because they shared an N-special?

I used to have heated arguments with those people. Good times.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Edit: Does anyone still go around saying Lucario is a clone of Mewtwo? I actually do remember those people. .__.

It's not as bad as it used to be, but there are still a few people who do that. I've also seen people call Wolf a Fox clone(which I can sort of see) and Ike a Roy clone.

I used to have heated arguments with those people. Good times.

I feel for you, especially since I used to be one of "those people". In my defense, I was in Middle School at the time and kind of an idiot.

 

[---]

So are we hating on the Melee filler characters or are we hating on the Brawl Semi-Clones, or both? I'm lost towards what argument everyone is trying to make.

Pretty sure that for the most part, when you get down to it, the clones/semi-clones each have their own unique playstyle despite having a few moves that look similar but have different effects/properties/etc. So it's not a really big deal in the end, Sakurai's done adding characters to buff the roster anyway.


@Lucario being a clone: People certainly are dumb, some still now also argue that Lucario and Ike replaced Mewtwo and Roy.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

While I personally don't have a problem with clones, I get where some people are coming from. If I were a big Ganondorf fan, I could easily see being upset at him being a Falcon clone. Although at this point, "Luigifying" characters is likely going to result in as much backlash as making clones did in the first place.

I also feel that it makes sense for certain characters(Falco,Y/T Link) to be clones of other character(Fox, Link).

 

[Aurane]

Wow, I've been gone alot lately... Sakurai got some people to help'em out, or somethin' like that?

Also, "Luigifying", to my opinion, is lazy. Wynaut just make everyone unique? Don't give me time tables, cause Sakurai is obviously not worried about it. The only thing I see him really worried about time-wise is the 3DS-involvement, but that's about it.

Lucario's a clone to Mewtwo? Goodness, I remember them days. That's like saying your shoes belong on the sofa after you came back from a marathon in the rain. It just doesn't sound right, nor is.

 

[Pyra]

Wow, I've been gone alot lately... Sakurai got some people to help'em out, or somethin' like that?

Also, "Luigifying", to my opinion, is lazy. Wynaut just make everyone unique? Don't give me time tables, cause Sakurai is obviously not worried about it. The only thing I see him really worried about time-wise is the 3DS-involvement, but that's about it.

Besides, if he somehow ran out of time, he could just pull another series of delays (that SSBB release date was fun.)

 

[Big-Cat]

Well, what's nice is that it can take one character's fighting style and do a twist on that style. Personally, instead of Luigifying a character when added. I'd rather they do it more like how Ryu and Sakura are different from each other. Sakura imitates Ryu's three signature specials, but she does them in such a way that if her Hadouken was named something else and she lost the headband, no one would think she was a shotoclone.

That being said, I think the roster should be decided from the get go. In this day and age, DLC allows spare characters to be added in at a later date to freshen things up. So long as we don't have another Capcomgate incident, we should be fine.

 

[Conviction]

Most here know my stance on clones.

Anyways, there are characters that need revamping more-so than some clones do.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Wow, I've been gone alot lately... Sakurai got some people to help'em out, or somethin' like that?

Also, "Luigifying", to my opinion, is lazy. Wynaut just make everyone unique? Don't give me time tables, cause Sakurai is obviously not worried about it. The only thing I see him really worried about time-wise is the 3DS-involvement, but that's about it.

I'm confused as to what you're upset about. You say you want everyone to be unique, but that Luigifying is lazy? Isn't Luigification the process of taking a character who was similar to another and making him less similar? Did I miss something?

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm confused as to what you're upset about. You say you want everyone to be unique, but that Luigifying is lazy? Isn't Luigification the process of taking a character who was similar to another and making him less similar?

He would rather that the clones be revamped to have their own fighting styles as opposed to it happening over a series of games.

 

[Aurane]

I'm confused as to what you're upset about. You say you want everyone to be unique, but that Luigifying is lazy? Isn't Luigification the process of taking a character who was similar to another and making him less similar? Did I miss something?

You just answered your own question. "Less" is not "Unique".

 

[Robert of Normandy]

He would rather that the clones be revamped to have their own fighting styles as opposed to it happening over a series of games.

...which is just a (more extreme) type of Luigification. His(her?) comment oculd have been a bit better worded.

And as I said before, it makes sense for certain characters to be clones. For example, since the two Links often use the same equipment, wouldn't it make sense for them to have similar moves?

 

[Pyra]

I'm confused as to what you're upset about. You say you want everyone to be unique, but that Luigifying is lazy? Isn't Luigification the process of taking a character who was similar to another and making him less similar? Did I miss something?

For instance, instead of making Luigi less like Mario, he wants Luigi to be more like Luigi. Basically, making characters more... unique.


If that makes sense.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

For instance, instead of making Luigi less like Mario, he wants Luigi to be more like Luigi.


If that makes sense.

Except that isn't what he wants. He wants no characters to be similar to each other.

 

[Pyra]

Except that isn't what he wants. He wants no characters to be similar to each other.

I thought that's what I said.

 

[Aurane]

For instance, instead of making Luigi less like Mario, he wants Luigi to be more like Luigi. Basically, making characters more... unique.


If that makes sense.

This.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but whatever, I'd just rather like a Ganondorf, not a Captaindorf, or an Adult Link, and not a Toon-Old Link. I know clones are different now, but still...

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I thought that's what I said.

Damn, I thought you said more like Mario. My bad.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Toon Link could EASILY have different moves, that isn't the best example. I don't want Toon Link cut either way, but I'd appreciate him to represent the Toon games a bit more.

I think Toon Link is the most desired clone/similar character to be cut, it wouldn't be the worst thing, but a shame nonetheless personally.

 

[Aurane]

Toon Link could EASILY have different moves, that isn't the best example. I don't want Toon Link cut either way, but I'd appreciate him to represent the Toon games a bit more.

I think Toon Link is the most desired clone/similar character to be cut, it wouldn't be the worst thing, but a shame nonetheless personally.

This is exactly my view. TLink, to be honest, had a ****ing awesome hammer in Wind Waker. Instead, they gave him the original set.

 

[Pyra]

Toon Link could EASILY have different moves, that isn't the best example.

It's such a shame the team went the direction that they did. Toon Link would have been sweet with some creativity, but everything right down to the final smash was just Link, except smaller and more cel-shaded.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

This.

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but whatever, I'd just rather like a Ganondorf, not a Captaindorf, or an Adult Link, and not a Toon-Old Link. I know clones are different now, but still...

I get the Ganondorf thing, the Link thing not so much.

It's such a shame the team went the direction that they did. Toon Link would have been sweet with some creativity, but everything right down to the final smash was just Link, except smaller and more cel-shaded.

I'm a big Wind Waker fan, and I was happy with his moveset. I'd rather the individual properties of the moves be changed to reflect the games, not the moves themselves...but that's for a different thread.

And really, SSBB only has 4 or 5 characters that could really be called clones out of a roster of almost 40. Not really that big of a problem, especially if all the new characters in 4 are unique.

Edit: An idea I've posted on a couple character threads is for this game to have "EX modes" for certain characters. That way, the clone moveset could be preserved for those who liked it, and there could be an alternate, more original/unique/creative moveset.

 

[Aurane]

@Shinpichu Like I said, just in my view. But only in that topic. Luigifying Minor, if I may, is seen with all characters. Bowser and Charizard's (B) moves are Flamethrower. Bowser should have his classic Fire Ball attack (Obviously not like Mario's (B) move or YLink's (B) move). Lucario and Mewtwo have the "Energy shot" attack, and so does Samus.

It's not my biggest concern, or tbh, not a concern at all, but I could imagine all (B) moves different for every character.

So, on another topic, sorry for interrupting, but I'm making more Adventure Mode adventure ideas. I got a good one with Luigi, Lucario, and Olimar as the characters, and Regice, Regirock, Registeel, and Regigigas as the bosses. It's kinda a mix of the chase scene of Porky from SSBB and a drop-in fight sequence. I'll post it later, unless they have a thread for that.