Super Smash Battle Opera - West Lafayette, IN, USA

['Fro]

Link is a good match up against Samus if used properly. Well, it is more along the lines on how you're playing Link and which stages you are playing on. I believe Fro can back me up on some of this. Granted, Link is not a commonly counter pick to Samus, but there is that option that can be thrown out there.

Speaking of which, is it possible for someone to record some of Link vs. Samus matches of me and Fro?


edit:
Incoming Voldo attack!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=few1TxTyUo0&feature=related

True, Link pulls the match-up with Samus down to even. His walls of projectiles limit Samus's movement. He's the one dictating where the match goes. Samus has to play on his terms. However, Samus does better in the ground game. And I would LOVE to record those matches, so someone please respond to Adam.


Carl, your tier list.....I won't even go there. I'll just say that doing OK against a mid tier does not equal being better than said mid tier.

 

[mecatomato]

First off, this whole according to your friend thing is really a non-point. You can claim this and that according to a friend that knows him and said he does this and that. I'm not saying you are lying, but with all the real information, videos, and facts that we have regarding smash, someone telling someone else that someone uses some character against some people is not a good enough source. There is enough better information out there to back up your opinion if your opinion is indeed valid.

hm, then I will have to ask YOU this.

FROM WHERE are you coming up with all that information?

please answer ONLY 'WHERE'.

Green Greens is worse than most neutrals for DK when facing Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. This makes DK less viable vs the best characters. Although DK may have a better matchup vs Jiggs on this stage, the stage does not help DK in toto.

you sort of make sense here. I will give you that.
BUT, will you be fighting Top Tier Characters in your life span?

and numbers that people give in the match-ups are not all you see.

eventhough match up says 7:3, you are still feasible to win the 'better character' with 'worse character'.

match-up ratio is nothing more than just numbers.

You "liking" to play Pikachu on RC doesn't really matter either. That is a matter of personal preferance. I like playing everyone on Dream Land, but that doesn't make the matchup any better. What character better than Pikachu would you take to RC in order to neutralize the disadvantages? Going Corneria with Samus is simply a TERRIBLE idea. Get killed off the top easially by fox, and by Falco Shine>Shine, get killed off of both sides easily by everyone, lose your recovery advantage because of the small sides and ceiling, and lose the ability to grapple low parts of the stage to mix up recoveries.

Tell you something, yo.
Life does not follow theory all the time.

and if liking does not matter, what matters?

just like what I say to you seem like nonsense to you,
we have different opinions.

So, again, it is a same formula.
What the other people say might be so right for you and/or me.

if it comes to anything, in this case, the game, that you can have your own style,
YOU SHOULD STAND IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR OPINIONS for your preference at least.


my sound offensive, let me ask you this.

Do you even play samus?

To me, it seems like you are just ignoring me and smashing my opinions because I am a random noob you see around on this thread.
I, at least, mained samus, and I know a lot of her.
playing samus against spacies on Corneria is NOT A TERRIBLE IDEA.
it may not the best option IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY ALL THE CHARACTERS,
but if she is one of your best character, she's got nothing to lose on that stage.
it is worth trying.

Then you said you would gladly pick FD with ness. Um...I agree. FD is a neutral, non-jank stage, and it help's ness' viability. Maybe you didnt understand what my post was all about.

FYI, neutral stages can be counter pick stages as well. =)

Brinstar is not terribly jank IMO, and should remain a CP. It is one of the few CP's that DOES help alot of lower characters, because it is not particularly good for Marth and Sheik, and many characters directly counter Foxes and Falcos here successfully.

ARE YOU KIDDING?
sheik is not bad on Brinstar!!!

Saying that increasing randomness increases balance and therefore makes a better game is far and away the worst point in that post. It is as much of a point as the fact that flipping a coin is a perfectly random, therefore perfectly balanced game. The smash community as a whole desires to make a game that is NOT random, but based as entirely as possible on skill. A big reason we don't play with items is because explosives can randomly spawn in your hitbox while you are attacking. Randomness ruins smash. It keeps people from playing the game in the first place, and randomness steps in randomly to replace skill.

The more you know, the less you understand...

Let me digress a little here.
Tell me, who has EXACT same skill as you do?

if you are keep comparing one to someone who is beyond better, game will be never balanced.
not just smash, anything wil not be.

Not to mention randomness affects players EQUALLY. Therefore, in theory, randomness provides no advantage to the bad character over the good character because they both have the same chance of being affected by something that is truly random. In this case, the less-skilled player is looking towards randomness as a crutch, and that is not what smash is about.

If Smash (especially Melee) is to remain the institution that is is today, a conglomeration of technical skill, intelligence, and quick-mindedness, we must do all we can to keep randomness to a minimum, and character viability must kept in mind when legalizing and banning stages. Where Pokefloats and Green Greens fail to enhance character viability by only exaggerating the advantages of top-tiers, Brinstar excells by legitimately benifitting lower tier characters vs. higher tiers, not in a random "hope for the best" way, but by allowing the advantages of lower tiers to be best utilized.

for an example,
what do you think of match up,
Fox vs Mario?

i beat NJ's top 9's fox with my mario.

Now, I am expecting you to say, beating him once or twice does not mean anything.
tell me something new.


Overall,
you made bunch of good points, but lacking some facts at the same time.
yet, we shall see.

I may not be able to prove anything more with my current skills.
I will look forward to see you in JAB 2.

we can discuss more in person to person,
rather than chattering like little girls on the board. haha

Take care, son.


**Edit**
if you see any part that does not make sense at all (as in grammar or topic-wise),
I apologize, I often say something weird when I am really tired.
that i don't even understand. lol

I am super tired right now. I cannt even check what i've written. hehe

Peef, while I agree with many of the things you say, you have a huge attitude problem. I know you're a smart guy, but you are way too arrogant for your own level of skill and experience, and not just in smash.

I hope when you go to college you ego will deflate a bit, because you can be really cool and fun to talk to. But on your current trend you are alienating a lot of people. You are lucky I know you in person, because if i only knew you from your posts I would think you are a huge ***.

Just remember, there are more important things than being right.

George.... You've grown up too =D

 

['Fro]

Just saw the part where Peef said Sheik wasn't very good on Brinstar. False that. She isn't Peach or Puff, but Sheik can rock that stage.

Also, Maus, I liked your sig better before you "fixed" it. :D

 

[goosefactor]

Ahh, man. I wanted to make a short, funny post that pertained to nothing, but now it'll look rude making it after Maus' long, serious one that he obviously put a lot of effort into making. I hate when that happens. Hmm, and I don't think Fro's buffer post is quite enough. :/

 

[NJzFinest]

Carl, your tier list.....I won't even go there. I'll just say that doing OK against a mid tier does not equal being better than said mid tier.

That wasn't my reason for putting her so low, rather, a funny thing to point out.

I'll just say that doing OK against characters when the players are playing bad does not equal being better than said mid tier.

 

[kirkq]

and as a falcon main i prefer KJ64 > FD vs falco

Take me to KJ64. I dare you.

 

[Jayford]

Take me to KJ64. I dare you.

Falco
______
|
|
|
|
_______


______________________Captain Falcon(**** I can't get up there) ______________________
[] <----- Barrel

 

[PEEF!]

I like how the only thing ppl want to mention is my single VAGUE statement about a single character on a single stage. Sheik really is good on almost every stage, her advantages shine through most anywhere, but Brinstar is not a particularly powerful counterpick of hers. At least from what I understand. What I said was "not particularly good" not "bad". Particularly good includes good, above average, and well.

Meta I will respond to some of the things said. I think we agree on alot so we should just agree and be friends. But you asked, so...

Legit information: Frame data, videos of two top-level players exposing character weakness. (Darkrain vs. Cactuar on Dreamland), repeated trends in tournament placing, and repeated trends in match results within a tournment would all be good sources of information. To a lesser degree, top level players stauchly defending a point does matter.

I do not play Samus, but I very often play against her, and I know her strengths and weaknesses well because I experience them.

I also know that neutrals can be counterpicks, come on. And I am saying FD is a great neutral, and a great counterpick making viable several characters vs top tiers via chaingrabs or extended combos. For example, Ness (as you mentioned) and pikachu are two characters in particular that use this stage against top tiers to exaggerate their strong points. That is good.

Fox vs Mario is very winable for Mario. First off, he has a beastly chaingrab if I am not mistaken. He also can throw out some dirty comboes. Of course it is in Fox's favor, but Mario and Dr. Mario especially are being pulled out more and more against Foxes, and they are doing very well (EX: Shroomed). They also CP stages that they can use to their advantage, like FD. They do not go to Rainbow Cruise or PF.

I too may not be able to provide much, but I think we will get along just fine.

 

[BunBun]

Use the knee

I maintain that if you learned how to DI it wouldn't be so bad...

 

[DeezNutZ]

In terms of kongo jungle, there are potentially alot of characters that get some benefit from the stage. In my experience with the stage some characters get benefits (high ceilings platforms, ect) but they may not be worth counterpicking to KJ64. For example although samus is pretty good there I do not prefer it because the platforms are wierd the barrel cannon is gay and the edges are difficult if not impossible with a grappler to sweet spot. Luigi is crazy on KJ64. The rotating platforms allow him to do silly combos and the high platforms are useful for his recovery.



When did i get 44 posts I havent been on here in a month

 

[BunBun]

I accidentally unsubscribed

 

[NJzFinest]

*I edited my last post which was in reply to Fros*
Also:

Take me to KJ64. I dare you.

lol, did someone finally learn how to play on that stage? jk, not really <3

I maintain that if you learned how to DI it wouldn't be so bad...

lol, watch the percents that Puff dies from the knee on that stage, it's fairly reasonable.

Also, I just had a dream where I died. It was pretty weird. I was choking on my own blood and I was pretty much like "...****". I wasn't able to make any sounds, so no one was able to hear me.

O_o

 

[BunBun]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[iamthemicrowave]

carl thas ****ed up man.

kirkq, im taking you there next we play.

maus, thanks for the compliment <3

andrew, are you saying carl cant DI? lol?

matt, you're a fro, sucks I won't be here this weekend. oh well

fro, i think your sheik has gotten very good. I never respected your non samus characters, but your sheik was just so dirty last time we played. I need lots of practice on that matchup

 

[BunBun]

No, the "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" was about his dream lol

 

[iamthemicrowave]

I maintain that if you learned how to DI it wouldn't be so bad...

andrew, are you saying carl cant DI? lol?

???????????

 

[BunBun]

Oh, yes. xD

More of a joke than anything else

 

[Jayford]

fro, i think your sheik has gotten very good. I never respected your non samus characters, but your sheik was just so dirty last time we played. I need lots of practice on that matchup

Fro's Sheik is really mean =/ He ftilt camps me like its no one's business lol.

Also, George are you going to the Smashing Grounds on Sat?

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Oh, yes. xD

More of a joke than anything else

haha yeah i kid

Fro's Sheik is really mean =/ He ftilt camps me like its no one's business lol.

Also, George are you going to the Smashing Grounds on Sat?

hellz yeah, its like 15 mins from my house

 

[Jayford]

hellz yeah, its like 15 mins from my house

Aww man I might have to make the trip up there. Its only an hour and 20min away from my house. So hopefully I can convince my parents that if I am not home on Saturday there will still be family time for the rest of fall break lmao.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Aww man I might have to make the trip up there. Its only an hour and 20min away from my house. So hopefully I can convince my parents that if I am not home on Saturday there will still be family time for the rest of fall break lmao.

lol do it man...i had to do the same argument cuz my grampa is coming in this weekend so much "family time" is going down. plus ray chun is gonna be there, so what more could you want?

haha I just realized we should go to an Ann Arbor tournament sometime, cuz my grampa lives there and he will buy us drinks at bars there O_o

 

[Jayford]

It's settled. I am coming just to hear ray chun laugh.

 

[BunBun]

I'll be there too =3

 

[Jayford]

I'll be there too =3

Its going to be one big Purdue party <3.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

axe combo video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGTWI2f6AIE

 

[mecatomato]

Just saw the part where Peef said Sheik wasn't very good on Brinstar. False that. She isn't Peach or Puff, but Sheik can rock that stage.

Also, Maus, I liked your sig better before you "fixed" it. :D

Haha, I fixed it pretty right after you told me what was wrong.

Ahh, man. I wanted to make a short, funny post that pertained to nothing, but now it'll look rude making it after Maus' long, serious one that he obviously put a lot of effort into making. I hate when that happens. Hmm, and I don't think Fro's buffer post is quite enough. :/

LOL, just do it. I wouldn't care much.

I like how the only thing ppl want to mention is my single VAGUE statement about a single character on a single stage. Sheik really is good on almost every stage, her advantages shine through most anywhere, but Brinstar is not a particularly powerful counterpick of hers. At least from what I understand. What I said was "not particularly good" not "bad". Particularly good includes good, above average, and well.

LOL that's how life rolls, buddy. hahaha
1% makes the change in view.

For example,
just let's say, you hate me. ;_;
but then once you find 1% of good thing from me, your view will change.

it's like that. a little thing just changes a lot.
so to say, butterfly effect, in some way. =D

Meta I will respond to some of the things said. I think we agree on alot so we should just agree and be friends. But you asked, so...

Good good. =)

Legit information: Frame data, videos of two top-level players exposing character weakness. (Darkrain vs. Cactuar on Dreamland), repeated trends in tournament placing, and repeated trends in match results within a tournment would all be good sources of information. To a lesser degree, top level players stauchly defending a point does matter.

Hehe, this is definitely right.
However, can you be frame perfect all the time? =P

guess not.

I do not play Samus, but I very often play against her, and I know her strengths and weaknesses well because I experience them.

um,
knowledge from playing against them =/= knowledge from playing as them.

i can give you whole lot of examples, because i play almost all the characters in the game..
you may ask carl.

he plays all the characters in the game. he may give you more detailed info, since he is simply better than me.

I also know that neutrals can be counterpicks, come on. And I am saying FD is a great neutral, and a great counterpick making viable several characters vs top tiers via chaingrabs or extended combos. For example, Ness (as you mentioned) and pikachu are two characters in particular that use this stage against top tiers to exaggerate their strong points. That is good.

hahahahahahahahahaha
ness is just queer character.
like i said before, i cannot think of the stages.. >_>
in general....

smash is not in my head anymore. lol
it was so difficult for me to pull all those info that i wrote.

but pikachu definitely is underrated.
pika is fast enough, has good recovery, good gimping ability and strong moves - Usamsh.
only thing bad is the weight of him.
pika is actually feasible to perform better that what it is judged at the moment.

Fox vs Mario is very winable for Mario. First off, he has a beastly chaingrab if I am not mistaken. He also can throw out some dirty comboes. Of course it is in Fox's favor, but Mario and Dr. Mario especially are being pulled out more and more against Foxes, and they are doing very well (EX: Shroomed). They also CP stages that they can use to their advantage, like FD. They do not go to Rainbow Cruise or PF.

I too may not be able to provide much, but I think we will get along just fine.

Mario 'CAN' do well on fox...
but go ahead try it.
mario's only move that can outrange fox is Fsmash
speed, range, priority in moves....
Fox >> Mario.

as i have mentioned, and that you seem to agree...
Match up ratio is, once again, no more than just numbers.
it may give you the general idea how tough it can be,

but actual game depends on your ability.


hmm.
you are 'playing' this game right?
well, um, all what i can say is

Good luck and have fun. =)

maus, thanks for the compliment <3

fro, i think your sheik has gotten very good. I never respected your non samus characters, but your sheik was just so dirty last time we played. I need lots of practice on that matchup

You're welcome buddy =D

oh, guess what.
Fro, is not fro anymore.

Call him Maus Jr. =P

 

[BunBun]

Axe is mad good.

What was that superpikawavedash thing?

 

[Roneblaster]

Take me to KJ64. I dare you.

you were in my pool @ SMYM10, your alot better than me, so it wouldnt matter where i take you.

 

['Fro]

fro, i think your sheik has gotten very good. I never respected your non samus characters, but your sheik was just so dirty last time we played. I need lots of practice on that matchup

Why thank you George! Credit where credit is due, you, along with Alan, were the reason I picked up Sheik again to begin with. Now that I have a better understanding of her, I can finally say I have a real secondary.

And Carl, to your edited post, true. I still think Samus is better than what you give her credit for. She's solid, but not dominant. She's also extremely punishable when played in a sloppy fashion. See my Samus vs. your DK for reference.

 

[voorhese]

fro plays sheik now =) i cant wait to see it, i as well as some of my friends are planing to attend this up coming tourney

 

[NJzFinest]

Sloppy fashion? Samus can't do anything to DK's spaced moves. You're not the only Samus that falls victim to my DK.

You can even ask Mexican and Bum. They have HugS and Wes experience, respectively. Best Samus I've played is probably Alukard and the matches with him simply support my opinion on DK's advantage. It's at least 65/35 DK and I'm very eager to make the same challenge a fellow DK main called Elliot (Maus knows him) made. The challenge is that he'll moneymatch any Samus on earth and guarantee he won't lose match.

The matchup is very tought-less imo, all Samus has going for her is making sure the DK player eventually gets bored and careless after you start losing stocks.

I don't intend for any Samus main to agree to this, too much bias when people talk about DK vs their character. I'd be pretty pissed about a monkey ****** my main lol

Also:

Iggytheship (12:04:26 AM):[Offline IM sent 17h and 18m ago] dude, you can't challenge me
Iggytheship (12:04:31 AM):[Offline IM sent 17h and 18m ago] I already took #1 from kirk
Iggytheship (12:04:39 AM):[Offline IM sent 17h and 18m ago] you could try and challenge kirk though

Kirk, challenge match? lol

 

['Fro]

Sloppy fashion? Samus can't do anything to DK's spaced moves. You're not the only Samus that falls victim to my DK.

You can even ask Mexican and Bum. They have HugS and Wes experience, respectively. Best Samus I've played is probably Alukard and the matches with him simply support my opinion on DK's advantage. It's at least 65/35 DK and I'm very eager to make the same challenge a fellow DK main called Elliot (Maus knows him) made. The challenge is that he'll moneymatch any Samus on earth and guarantee he won't lose match.

The matchup is very tought-less imo, all Samus has going for her is making sure the DK player eventually gets bored and careless after you start losing stocks.

I don't intend for any Samus main to agree to this, too much bias when people talk about DK vs their character. I'd be pretty pissed about a monkey ****** my main lol

While you're exaggerating how bad it is a bit, I'll agree that DK has the advantage in that match-up. I still think Samus is a slightly better character overall, though.

I'll also clarify what I meant by sloppy. Hitting DK's sheild with laggy moves leads to grabs. I f-smashed your sheild a lot during our matches, leading to me not having a chance to move.

 

[NJzFinest]

Idk, I can't see anything Samus can be better at then DK except being able to face Falco (I don't consider DK vs Falco even a match, it's just that bad).
I will admit it's very hard to tell since Samus actually attracts good players

 

[Gauthic Von B Schönen]

For your viewing displeasure

 

['Fro]

Idk, I can't see anything Samus can be better at then DK except being able to face Falco (I don't consider DK vs Falco even a match, it's just that bad).
I will admit it's very hard to tell since Samus actually attracts good players

I see what you're saying. I don't know. I feel the results of the best Samus players vs. the results of the best DK players should reflect enough upon their respective placements. See, there isn't a huge gulf between these two at all. Samus has done better of the course of Melee's life span so far to warrant her higher placement, even going beyond the straight-up comparison of Bum vs. Hugs.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

the only DK player who has done **** is bum...i dont get why bum quit, he went to that tournament and was beasting isai, pc, lots of people, and now he plays barwl or some bs.

samus has seen alot more placings with hugs, alukard, wes, watty, ihsb

no one even plays DK...mexican quit, and i dunno whats up with bum. I guess pkmvodka is the best DK now...and strong bad LOL

 

[NJzFinest]

Bum wasn't only the only DK player who did ****.

He was also basically the only player who even used DK competitively.

 

[Jayford]

He is the leader of the bunch you know him well and he is finally back to kick some tail.

DK is boring to watch. So no one likes him =/. Samus has cool stuff like SWD and gimps.

 

[mecatomato]

He is the leader of the bunch you know him well and he is finally back to kick some tail.

DK is boring to watch. So no one likes him =/. Samus has cool stuff like SWD and gimps.

Jay, you are boring to watch, stfu. =P

no shizz allowed to my N brother

 

[NJzFinest]

He is the leader of the bunch you know him well and he is finally back to kick some tail.

DK is boring to watch. So no one likes him =/. Samus has cool stuff like SWD and gimps.

Combos = more fun to watch then shield camping and wavedash back ftilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARbd5uF-_Aw

Also, what cool gimps does Samus have? People not DIing missles? xD