Super Smash Battle Opera - West Lafayette, IN, USA

['Fro]

Prob not, he used to tell me Samus = bad. It's just that he backs it up by saying he's too amazing.

In his comeback thread, Hugs said he believes Samus has what it takes to compete and keep up with the current metagame. I'd like to elaborate, but Hugs put it better than I could. Impatient American mentalities are the main reason so many games fall into a tier-whoring cycle anyways. No offense to anyone here or otherwise, but it's a more proven trend here, and it's easy to see in many fighting game scenes here.


EDIT: Some drunk stole my burrito and tortilla soup at Qdoba last night. How petty.

 

[PEEF!]

Samus does absolutely have what it takes. The problem is it takes more than the wdbackwards ftilt mentality of the past. But I agree. He only has 2 truly "bad" matches anyway in Sheik and Marth, both that can be gotten around, especially with a huge lack of top-level sheik and marth players.

Spaceballs has been proving it with very good placings around the country recently, including beating Tang and Zhu, and barely barely losing to Lunin.

Samus would also be far more viable if jank counterpicks were removed from this game, something that I support. Your Green greens, Jungle Japes, Poke floats, and rainbow cruises keep several characters from reaching a higher level of play, and give several already good characters an unfair advantage equalling continuing dominance. Stupid counterpicks like these are already on the way out, (they arent picked much), and removing them completely would help add to the competitive nature of our game.

 

[voorhese]

isnt puff a really bad matchup for samus to?

 

[mecatomato]

Samus does absolutely have what it takes. The problem is it takes more than the wdbackwards ftilt mentality of the past. But I agree. He only has 2 truly "bad" matches anyway in Sheik and Marth, both that can be gotten around, especially with a huge lack of top-level sheik and marth players.

Spaceballs has been proving it with very good placings around the country recently, including beating Tang and Zhu, and barely barely losing to Lunin.

Samus would also be far more viable if jank counterpicks were removed from this game, something that I support. Your Green greens, Jungle Japes, Poke floats, and rainbow cruises keep several characters from reaching a higher level of play, and give several already good characters an unfair advantage equalling continuing dominance. Stupid counterpicks like these are already on the way out, (they arent picked much), and removing them completely would help add to the competitive nature of our game.

Skill of the player ALWAYS COMES BEFORE Character's ability (or you can say, Match-up).

Anyone at "Top level" will pretty much beat the other one.

KDJ beats a lot of falcos with Pichu.
and Pichu is the worst character.

I have beaten or played well against any character with samus.
At least, back when i was 'playing' this game.

if fox or falco is at the 'Top-level', samus will never beat it.
Nonetheless, you can see some samus players beating extremely good spacies,
because spacies players are often aggressvie.
Look around, and tell me.
I know Cactuar is not aggressive, but who else has spaices like him?
maybe there are some more, but i don't recall anyone from top of my head.

That is because, usual play style of samus is very defensive, and that urges spacies players to go even more aggressive than they usually are, and that cause them to make mistakes.

Samus loves the mistakes from spacies.


and from my experience,
Marth is the easiest top tier character to fight against as Samus.

If sheik is not needle camping much,
sheik is the easiest to beat.



Also, once Iggy and Carl have mentioned,

Stages you guys call 'Dumb stage/sutpid stage' MAKE THE GAME MORE BALANCED overall.
(I will, however, admit some stages let some characters win very easily, such as Onett)

Different stages make you play differently.

Because You cannot perform well on the stage, it does not mean that stage is a bad stage.
you are just not used to that stage.

isnt puff a really bad matchup for samus to?

\yes it is pretty bad. lol

 

[PEEF!]

Those stages do not make the game more balanced overall. Name me one instance in which Green Greens, Japes, Pokefloats, or RC is used to make the game more balanced (aka a low tier takes a high teir to this stage and gains an advantage). It doesn't happen. Fox is better on all of those stages, Falco is better on all of those stages, Marth and sheik to well on those stages. However characters like samus, doc and Luigi (unique characters that are trying to break the "glass ceiling") are severly hampered on these stages. Those stages only make the game more random, more "party time with the family", and far more difficult for low and mid tiers to win on. Tell me how that "balances the game."

Marth and Sheik both have the advantage on Samus according to most all high level samuses. There isn't much more I can say about that...

Your reference to KDJ is a bit out of place, first because the latest video of KDJ's pichu is 2 years old (he doesn't play anymore). On top of that, his pichu has not beaten any good falcos. The only video on youtube of his pichu was him beating up on a bad falco named "Jello". KDJ was also just a great player with alot of characters, but his principal success came with Sheik, Marth, and Fox (The 3 best characters in the game), contrary to what you might have suggested. He used them because he wanted to win.

 

['Fro]

My $0.02:

First off, Peef, Samus is a woman.

Second, I'll say Samus's worst match-ups are Sheik, Jigglypuff, and Falcon. Sheik can grab Samus out of nearly any mistake, and proceed to d-throw to free hit. At higher percents, that's a gauranteed kill set-up on Samus, something not common to other characters. Needles are another pain, as they nuetralize all of Samus's projectiles while limiting her movement, as well as being able to blow up Samus's bombs.

Jiggs can safely attack Samus's upper body without fear of retaliation due to how fast and safe her aerials are for that. She can also eat Samus's bombs and gimp her recovery, and is the only character that can do that almost free of risk.

Falcon's aerials aren't the highest in priority, but they have enough to beat Samus. Falcon can knee Samus out of her n-air by hitting her outstretched heel. His movement speed also makes it tough to lock him down. His recovery is bad, but Falcon's heavy body makes it tought for Samus to send him off-stage to begin with. It gets tougher if the Falcon keep recovering high onto platforms to deiversify his options, because Samus isn't fast enough to cover all the options.

As for Fox and Falco, Samus can handle those match-ups well enough once she gets a hit. Those featherweights can be sent off stage reasonably early, putting into play Samus's effective edge guarding. Marth, while he can out-space and out-prioritize Samus completely, has trouble finishing her, mainly because of the lack of a gauranteed set-up for a kill.

If I were to put a reason for Samus not being better than she is, it's that other characters can do what she can, only better. She also doesn't have a winning match-up in the higher tiers apart from ICs.

Also, Maus, try playing against a good spacies player on Floats sometime as Samus. I'm sure you'll have the time of your life.

 

[Jayford]

\
Also, Maus, try playing against a good spacies player on Floats sometime as Samus. I'm sure you'll have the time of your life.

The Fro special lolololololol

 

[voorhese]

should i get this ring?

 

[mecatomato]

Those stages do not make the game more balanced overall. Name me one instance in which Green Greens, Japes, Pokefloats, or RC is used to make the game more balanced (aka a low tier takes a high teir to this stage and gains an advantage). It doesn't happen. Fox is better on all of those stages, Falco is better on all of those stages, Marth and sheik to well on those stages. However characters like samus, doc and Luigi (unique characters that are trying to break the "glass ceiling") are severly hampered on these stages. Those stages only make the game more random, more "party time with the family", and far more difficult for low and mid tiers to win on. Tell me how that "balances the game."

Marth and Sheik both have the advantage on Samus according to most all high level samuses. There isn't much more I can say about that...

Your reference to KDJ is a bit out of place, first because the latest video of KDJ's pichu is 2 years old (he doesn't play anymore). On top of that, his pichu has not beaten any good falcos. The only video on youtube of his pichu was him beating up on a bad falco named "Jello". KDJ was also just a great player with alot of characters, but his principal success came with Sheik, Marth, and Fox (The 3 best characters in the game), contrary to what you might have suggested. He used them because he wanted to win.

ooh, wanna make a bet?
KDJ is in Korea at the moment, still playing smash bros.
he is just not recording anymore.

plus, according to my friend Marcus, who is in korea as well, played KDJ.
when marcus picked falco, kDJ went pichu.
and KDJ won.

so Marcus asked him does he often do that,
and the answer was yes.

I talked to KDJ on AIM as well.

If you are only referring from the old video,
how about you talk to him first?


And, Green Greens is good for DK, unless your are facing fox, jiggs is one option on that stage.
I like to play Pikachu on RC.
I'd go Corneria with Samus.
I will gladly pick FD with ness.

i just hate Poke floats.

Brinstar for Ganon.

I just cannot think of the names of stages.

and, ok,
let me borrow your words.

As the game gets more 'random', it balanaces.
if you are not familiar with some stage, you will f up more than usual.
and that counts as a factor that balances the game out.

you would say no, because you already know all the stages, (I am assuming you know all)

HOWEVER, for example,
if you play someone who is better than you in the stage where he is not very familiar with,
you will have more advantage, that i guarantee.




Well, You also have to count this fact.

I don't play smash bros anymore.

I technically quit it last semester, but i played a bit during summer, and that's it.
I quit it in mid July.

So... it is kinda meaningless arguing with me.

anyway, how many low tiers do you play?
are you confident enough to use them in tourneys?

If I were to put a reason for Samus not being better than she is, it's that other characters can do what she can, only better. She also doesn't have a winning match-up in the higher tiers apart from ICs.

Also, Maus, try playing against a good spacies player on Floats sometime as Samus. I'm sure you'll have the time of your life.

you can be really gay against ICs, but if ICs player is smart enough, they will attack you anyway. haha

it is somewhat more samus favored, but not REALLY.

I hate PF...

The Fro special lolololololol

 

[Mr H]

First off, Peef, Samus is a woman.

enough said

 

[PEEF!]

Good post Fro.

Falcon vs Samus is kindof a wierd matchup. Falcon can give Samus the business, I agree. I do have a hard time of it though. The burden of perfection seems to be the responsibility of Falcon here though. Get hit by a missile while trying to approach, and there are more missiles heading your way, and stuff can get ugly. Samus can also jump or nair out of alot of combos that Falcon usually has no problem performing. Falcon does take complete control once he gets in, and especially once he gets a grab. Falcon can edgeguard fairly well. But it is an annoying matchup for Falcon at very least, but I can see it being a bad Samus matchup if Falcon is patient and spaces well.

 

[PEEF!]

ooh, wanna make a bet?
KDJ is in Korea at the moment, still playing smash bros.
he is just not recording anymore.

according to my friend Marcus kDJ went pichu.
so Marcus asked him does he often do that,
and the answer was yes.


And, Green Greens is good for DK, unless your are facing fox, jiggs is one option on that stage.
I like to play Pikachu on RC.
I'd go Corneria with Samus.
I will gladly pick FD with ness.

i just hate Poke floats.

Brinstar for Ganon.

I just cannot think of the names of stages.

and, ok,
let me borrow your words.

As the game gets more 'random', it balanaces.
if you are not familiar with some stage, you will f up more than usual.
and that counts as a factor that balances the game out.

you would say no, because you already know all the stages, (I am assuming you know all)

HOWEVER, for example,
if you play someone who is better than you in the stage where he is not very familiar with,
you will have more advantage, that i guarantee.

anyway, how many low tiers do you play?
are you confident enough to use them in tourneys?

you can be really gay against ICs, but if ICs player is smart enough, they will attack you anyway. haha

it is somewhat more samus favored, but not REALLY.

OK. I tried to condense this a little bit to what I will respond to.

First off, this whole according to your friend thing is really a non-point. You can claim this and that according to a friend that knows him and said he does this and that. I'm not saying you are lying, but with all the real information, videos, and facts that we have regarding smash, someone telling someone else that someone uses some character against some people is not a good enough source. There is enough better information out there to back up your opinion if your opinion is indeed valid.

Green Greens is worse than most neutrals for DK when facing Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik. This makes DK less viable vs the best characters. Although DK may have a better matchup vs Jiggs on this stage, the stage does not help DK in toto.

You "liking" to play Pikachu on RC doesn't really matter either. That is a matter of personal preferance. I like playing everyone on Dream Land, but that doesn't make the matchup any better. What character better than Pikachu would you take to RC in order to neutralize the disadvantages? Going Corneria with Samus is simply a TERRIBLE idea. Get killed off the top easially by fox, and by Falco Shine>Shine, get killed off of both sides easily by everyone, lose your recovery advantage because of the small sides and ceiling, and lose the ability to grapple low parts of the stage to mix up recoveries.

Then you said you would gladly pick FD with ness. Um...I agree. FD is a neutral, non-jank stage, and it help's ness' viability. Maybe you didnt understand what my post was all about.

Brinstar is not terribly jank IMO, and should remain a CP. It is one of the few CP's that DOES help alot of lower characters, because it is not particularly good for Marth and Sheik, and many characters directly counter Foxes and Falcos here successfully.

Saying that increasing randomness increases balance and therefore makes a better game is far and away the worst point in that post. It is as much of a point as the fact that flipping a coin is a perfectly random, therefore perfectly balanced game. The smash community as a whole desires to make a game that is NOT random, but based as entirely as possible on skill. A big reason we don't play with items is because explosives can randomly spawn in your hitbox while you are attacking. Randomness ruins smash. It keeps people from playing the game in the first place, and randomness steps in randomly to replace skill.

Not to mention randomness affects players EQUALLY. Therefore, in theory, randomness provides no advantage to the bad character over the good character because they both have the same chance of being affected by something that is truly random. In this case, the less-skilled player is looking towards randomness as a crutch, and that is not what smash is about.

If Smash (especially Melee) is to remain the institution that is is today, a conglomeration of technical skill, intelligence, and quick-mindedness, we must do all we can to keep randomness to a minimum, and character viability must kept in mind when legalizing and banning stages. Where Pokefloats and Green Greens fail to enhance character viability by only exaggerating the advantages of top-tiers, Brinstar excells by legitimately benifitting lower tier characters vs. higher tiers, not in a random "hope for the best" way, but by allowing the advantages of lower tiers to be best utilized.

 

[DracoFox]

Marth and Sheik both have the advantage on Samus according to most all high level samuses. There isn't much more I can say about that...

Link is a good match up against Samus if used properly. Well, it is more along the lines on how you're playing Link and which stages you are playing on. I believe Fro can back me up on some of this. Granted, Link is not a commonly counter pick to Samus, but there is that option that can be thrown out there.

Speaking of which, is it possible for someone to record some of Link vs. Samus matches of me and Fro?


edit:
Incoming Voldo attack!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=few1TxTyUo0&feature=related

 

[voorhese]

check out my new avatar lol i made it in paint

 

[BunBun]

Voorhese, shut the fuck up. If you haven't noticed, we're having a discussion and you are negatively affecting it. Go outside.


Zelda is decent to use against samus, but honestly why not just press down b?

 

[NJzFinest]

This is my tier list:

Fox
Sheik
Falco/Marth

Peach
Puff
Cfalcon
ICs/Ganon

Doc
Zelda
Luigi
DK
Mario

Link
Y.Link
Samus
Roy
Pikachu
GW

bottom tier =same

I'm posting this to keep myself awake. Studying in the library makes me sleepy. Don't feel like drooling over my psych textbook again heh

I personally think now, if ever, is the least fortunate metagame for Samus players, I remember Watty and Alkuard talking about this. I guess we'll wait and see, but I have a feeling HugS is going to be alone in Samus tournament placings... again.

 

[Mr H]

check out my new avatar lol i made it in paint

should i get this ring?

voorhese this is smashboards not smashblog GTFO

 

[JBM falcon08]

Samus doesn't lose to CF. Thats very untrue.

Also Marth, Sheik, and Fuff are by far her worst matchups.

 

[Jayford]

Samus vs. Shiek is like an own train. Samus tries to do stuff and Shiek owns her. Also, Falcon vs Samus is winnable for Falcon.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Peef, while I agree with many of the things you say, you have a huge attitude problem. I know you're a smart guy, but you are way too arrogant for your own level of skill and experience, and not just in smash.

I hope when you go to college you ego will deflate a bit, because you can be really cool and fun to talk to. But on your current trend you are alienating a lot of people. You are lucky I know you in person, because if i only knew you from your posts I would think you are a huge ***.

Just remember, there are more important things than being right.



Carl, I legit think KJ64 is a good falcon stage. Its basically dreamland with lots of room for falcon to run around and recover, and top platforms to help his recovery.

 

[NJzFinest]

Only thing with me and KJ64 is that the edges suck, so you can't ledgetech with Falcon. It's pretty obvious to tell if Falcon is aiming of the top platform or not. Idk, I think it's worth a shot every now and then, but I still can't see why not FD/DL64.

edit: lmao, I just realized everyone above Samus on the tier list I made can do just fine against her.

What a **** character xD

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Only thing with me and KJ64 is that the edges suck, so you can't ledgetech with Falcon. It's pretty obvious to tell if Falcon is aiming of the top platform or not. Idk, I think it's worth a shot every now and then, but I still can't see why not FD/DL64.

The ledgeteching is a drawback, but falcon can recover under the stage to increase his options. also the reverse up b can be performed from really far away and that can stop some edgeguard attempts. i think the stage hurts other characters recovery as well, like samus, and it can be hard to sweetspot side bs with spacies.

I do prefer DL, but people often ban it against me, so its FD or KJ baby.

 

[NJzFinest]

iamthemicrowave (7:58:04 PM): this girl is so cute and adorable and amazing
TheLoveBelow781 (7:58:19 PM): and sexy?
iamthemicrowave (7:58:43 PM): dude
iamthemicrowave (7:58:45 PM): OMG
iamthemicrowave (7:58:47 PM): i cant talk about her
iamthemicrowave (7:58:53 PM): it makes me wanna blow 50 loads on her face

This is George talking about Zelda

 

[iamthemicrowave]

iamthemicrowave (7:58:04 PM): this girl is so cute and adorable and amazing
TheLoveBelow781 (7:58:19 PM): and sexy?
iamthemicrowave (7:58:43 PM): dude
iamthemicrowave (7:58:45 PM): OMG
iamthemicrowave (7:58:47 PM): i cant talk about her
iamthemicrowave (7:58:53 PM): it makes me wanna blow 50 loads on her face

This is George talking about Zelda

psh it was peach *****aaaaaaa <3

 

[PEEF!]

Just remember, there are more important things than being right.

I know, and thanks. Hopefully someone reads and responds to the informational part of that post because it expresses my argument well.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

(09:04:20 PM) No1Kupo: lolll
(09:04:32 PM) No1Kupo: imn high as hell, playin some melee listenin to the jackson son
(09:04:36 PM) No1Kupo: of the mike kind
(09:04:39 PM) No1Kupo: lol
(09:05:12 PM) George: lol who u playin with
(09:05:22 PM) No1Kupo: heh, my friend cpu
(09:05:25 PM) No1Kupo: lol

 

[BunBun]

Fucking Wayne...

 

[NJzFinest]

Iggy, I'm going to be an ******* and do a challenge round thingy with you sometime this week.

<3

 

[Roneblaster]

let me get this out of the way:
**** Sheik and Falco

anyway

KJ64 is such a good falcon stage, i figured this out so long ago, and then you have this:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250297

 

[PEEF!]

Isai would approve.

 

[Roneblaster]

also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MayfNNv1C0&feature=channel_page

ignore the crappy video size, the video is worth the watch.

 

[_kSo_]

 

[Roneblaster]

legit?

si senor.

but anyway KJ64 > all stages NOT Named FD(except vs falco) or DL(except vs puff)

 

[iamthemicrowave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLGeM5OB8Ls

purdues finest at 1:02 also secret carl

 

[WarHippy]

Lol, Alan. 2good, sir.

 

[NJzFinest]

FD is good for Falco, probably the 1st or 2nd best stage

DL64 isn't terrible for Puff

 

[Roneblaster]

puff doesnt die on DL

and as a falcon main i prefer KJ64 > FD vs falco

 

[PEEF!]

puff doesnt die on DL

and as a falcon main i prefer KJ64 > FD vs falco

Agreed. Puff is soo good on dreamland. I am hesitant to ban it, but it is big trouble if caught on random.

Falcon is better on KJ than FD vs Falco in my experience, which is limited.

 

[Roneblaster]

im going innnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

sorry im tired and this is meh last post before bed.

rebuttal carl? (about KJ vs falco)

 

[NJzFinest]

puff doesnt die on DL

Use the knee

and as a falcon main i prefer KJ64 > FD vs falco

I'm not a fan of Falco's Dair camping on that stage. Also, Falco edgeguarding is made 100x easier on the stage (his jump is perfect for getting people who go for the top platform, you can't ledgetech Dairs, and Dair in general **** ppl trying to go through the stage). Hmm, I would imagine it being harder to combo/techchase Falco because of the stage's bottom layout.
I think KJ is a great place to counter Falco players since a lot of Falco players suck **** there. That's kinda why I brought up KJ being more of a "player counterpick".